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Post by mckay1402 on Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:04 am

I just thought that it might be interesting to see a match up between the two top teams. SA and NZ.
This is my contribution:

1. Os Du Randt
2. John Smidt
3. Ollie Le Roux
4. Frik Du Preez
5. Victor Matfield
6. Morne Du Plessis
7. Schalk Burger
8. gary Teichman
9. Joost Van de Westhuizen
10. Naas Botha
11. James Small
12. Danie Gerber
13. Jean de Villiers
14. Bryan Habana
15. Percy Montgomery

I reckon that is a pretty strong team and would definitely give the ABs a run for their money.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:46 am

James Small?

when youve had the likes of John Gainsford or Carel du Plessis.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:29 am

Or even JP Pietersen. I didn't rate Small particularly highly.

I also think Duane Vermuelen is better than Gary Teichman was.

Haven't seen Morne Du Plessis, but he must be pretty awesome to oust AJ Venter or Juan Smith (a hugely underrated Bok who seemed good at just about every facet of play).

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Post by mckay1402 on Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:12 am

James small was awesome
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Post by mckay1402 on Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:27 am

Morne du plessis is in the international hall of fame
He was immense
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:48 pm

I'll have to take your word on Morne du Plessis. I've never seen him play.

I have seen both Small and Pietersen, and would select Pietersen ahead of Small as a more rounded winger.

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Post by fa0019 on Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:32 am

I reckon a pro era XV would be a better split. Otherwise names are lost pretty quickly. For instance, in SA Uli Schmidt is thought of as the best SA hooker of all time and he played in the late 80s early 90s.

For me from 96 onwards I would say

Du Randt, Du Plessis, Visagie, Botha, Matfield, Burger, Kruger, Skinstad, van der Westhuizen, Honiball, Habana, Frans Steyn, Fourie, Terblanche, Joubert.

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Post by fa0019 on Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:33 am

James Small.... I don't think even his mother would select him. He probably would himself but no one else in SA!

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:35 am

Breyton Paulse probably deserves a mention

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:40 am

Not in the XV but Stuart Dickinson deserves and honourable mention Run

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Post by wayne on Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:36 am

As if on cue Jonathan "Jiffy" Davies has written a book and in this book he has selected his greatest "Lions". His 15 is as follows
15 JPR Williams
14 Gerald Davies
13 Jeremy Guscott
12 Mike Gibson
11 JJ Williams
10 Barry John
9 Gareth Edwards
1 Ian (mighty mouse) McLaughlin (sp)
2 Keith Wood
3 Fran Cotton
4 Willie John McBride
5 Gordon Brown
6 Richard Hill
7 Fergus Slattery
8 Mervyn Davies
So really only one person from the Professional Era Keith Wood, is it that still people think of the 70s through to the 90s with rose tinted spectacles.

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Post by miaow on Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:13 am

It's partly Jiffy's going to pick the players around the period where he was 'active', and that means players who preceded him, played with him, or played just after he retires. It's also clearly not on talent alone: no-one (I don't think) would say Guscott was a better player than O'Driscoll, yet for all BoD's exploits in Australia, Guscott "won" the tour in South Africa four years earlier.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:41 pm

miaow wrote:It's partly Jiffy's going to pick the players around the period where he was 'active', and that means players who preceded him, played with him, or played just after he retires. It's also clearly not on talent alone: no-one (I don't think) would say Guscott was a better player than O'Driscoll, yet for all BoD's exploits in Australia, Guscott "won" the tour in South Africa four years earlier.

BOD cant be that good, he got dropped. Whistle

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Post by fa0019 on Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:56 pm

wayne wrote:As if on cue Jonathan "Jiffy" Davies has written a book and in this book he has selected his greatest "Lions". His 15 is as follows
15 JPR Williams
14 Gerald Davies
13 Jeremy Guscott
12 Mike Gibson
11 JJ Williams
10 Barry John
9 Gareth Edwards
1 Ian (mighty mouse) McLaughlin (sp)
2 Keith Wood
3 Fran Cotton
4 Willie John McBride
5 Gordon Brown
6 Richard Hill
7 Fergus Slattery
8 Mervyn Davies
So really only one person from the Professional Era Keith Wood, is it that still people think of the 70s through to the 90s with rose tinted spectacles.  

How successful has the pro era lions been compared to say the 70s?

beat SA in 97 but lets be frank... it was probably one of the greatest managerial tours in history. Even McGeechan said so... if we play them to our traditional strengths, we lose. If we play them man for man, we lose. Individually, those players are better than us, 1-15. In the 2nd test the boks outscored the lions 3 tries to nil and still won... I looked into the frequency of this and its happened 1 other time in the pro era. From hundreds upon hundreds of tier 1 test matches.

01 - underperformed, injuries had its toll but they didn't do themselves justice.
05 - Utter calamity and was one of the most crushing tours in history.
09 - good series, top quality test matches but in fairness SA were the better side throughout.
13 - Lions were dominant... but the opposition wasn't exactly top drawer.

compare that to the 71 & 74 lions.

The team that beat NZ in NZ and then the team that went to SA and went home unbeaten. Slightly different now isn't it.

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Post by wayne on Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:15 pm

fa0019 wrote:
wayne wrote:As if on cue Jonathan "Jiffy" Davies has written a book and in this book he has selected his greatest "Lions". His 15 is as follows
15 JPR Williams
14 Gerald Davies
13 Jeremy Guscott
12 Mike Gibson
11 JJ Williams
10 Barry John
9 Gareth Edwards
1 Ian (mighty mouse) McLaughlin (sp)
2 Keith Wood
3 Fran Cotton
4 Willie John McBride
5 Gordon Brown
6 Richard Hill
7 Fergus Slattery
8 Mervyn Davies
So really only one person from the Professional Era Keith Wood, is it that still people think of the 70s through to the 90s with rose tinted spectacles.  

How successful has the pro era lions been compared to say the 70s?

beat SA in 97 but lets be frank... it was probably one of the greatest managerial tours in history. Even McGeechan said so... if we play them to our traditional strengths, we lose. If we play them man for man, we lose. Individually, those players are better than us, 1-15. In the 2nd test the boks outscored the lions 3 tries to nil and still won... I looked into the frequency of this and its happened 1 other time in the pro era. From hundreds upon hundreds of tier 1 test matches.

01 - underperformed, injuries had its toll but they didn't do themselves justice.
05 - Utter calamity and was one of the most crushing tours in history.
09 - good series, top quality test matches but in fairness SA were the better side throughout.
13 - Lions were dominant... but the opposition wasn't exactly top drawer.

compare that to the 71 & 74 lions.

The team that beat NZ in NZ and then the team that went to SA and went home unbeaten. Slightly different now isn't it.
fa, it might have seemed I was having a go at Jiffy's selection, but having come from the same generation, apart from possibly Graham Price and Martin Johnson, my team would be exactly the same, in practically ALL sports, the greatest sportsmen for me come from that era.

Going to your argument about the different era's I entirely agree that the 71,74 teams were far superior to the last 20s.

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Post by George Carlin on Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:35 pm

Frik du Preez - the Leone Nakarawa of his day.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:38 pm

George Carlin wrote:Frik du Preez - the Leone Nakarawa of his day.

Was du Preez a show pony as well??

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