Wales v Australia, 5 November

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 31 Oct - 17:52

Wales v Australia, 5 November Wales_11 Wales v Australia, 5 November Austra10
WALES v AUSTRALIA  
5 November 2016
KO: 14:30 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on BBC Sports

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant Referees: Jérôme Garcès (France), Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

39 Played 39
10 Won 28
1 Drawn 1
28 Lost 10
596 Points 912

B. Recent Form

10 October 2015:
Twickenham Stadium
15 – 6 to Australia
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

8 November 2014:
Millennium Stadium
28 – 33 to Australia
2014 Autumn International

30 November 2013:
Millennium Stadium
26 – 30 to Australia
2013 Autumn International

1 December 2012:
Millennium Stadium
12 – 14 to Australia
2012 Autumn International

23 June 2012:
Sydney Football Stadium
20 – 19 to Australia
Welsh Tour of Australia

16 June 2012:
Etihad Stadium
25 – 23 to Australia
Welsh Tour of Australia

9 June 2012:
Suncorp Stadium
27 – 19 to Australia
Welsh Tour of Australia

3 December 2011:
Millennium Stadium
18 – 24 to Australia
2011 Autumn International

C. Teams


WALES 
Wales v Australia, 5 November Dragon10
15 Leigh Halfpenny, 14 Alex Cuthbert, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Jamie Roberts, 11 George North, 10 Dan Biggar, 9 Rhys Webb, 8 Ross Moriarty, 7 Justin Tipuric, 6 Dan Lydiate, 5 Luke Charteris, 4 Bradley Davies, 3 Samson Le, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Gethin Jenkins

Replacements: 16 Scott Baldwin, 17 Nicky Smith, 18 Tomas Francis, 19 Cory Hill, 20 James King, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 Sam Davies, 23 Hallam Amos

AUSTRALIA  
Wales v Australia, 5 November Wallab10
15 Israel Folau, 14 Dane Haylett-Petty, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Reece Hodge, 11 Henry Speight, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Nick Phipps, 8 Lopeti Timani, 7 Michael Hooper, 6 David Pocock, 5 Adam Coleman, 4 Rory Arnold, 3 Sekope Kepu, 2 Stephen Moore (c), 1 Scott Sio

Replacements: 16 Tolu Latu, 17 James Slipper, 18 Allan Alaalatoa, 19 Rob Simmons, 20 Scott Fardy, 21 Nick Frisby, 22 Quade Cooper, 23 Sefa Naivalu


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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 31 Oct - 20:32

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)

F**kin pis$-take that we ALWAYS get Joubert against Australia. This game was over before it even started.

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Post by No9 on Mon 31 Oct - 23:38

mikey_dragon wrote:Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)

F**kin pis$-take that we ALWAYS get Joubert against Australia. This game was over before it even started.

Thought the same.. would be much fairer if we had Nigel Owens reff'ing the game..

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 31 Oct - 23:52

As far as I can see, Joubert's only refereed Wales v Australia three times ever.

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 31 Oct - 23:53

Don't be mean to Craig - he'll just go running off...
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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 31 Oct - 23:58

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:As far as I can see, Joubert's only refereed Wales v Australia three times ever.

Feel like a lot of recent games. Our last one in Cardiff and two in Aus the last time we played there I know Joubert was officiating. Are you sure there aren't more? I'd be interested to know if Joubert has actually reffed a NH vs SH game where the NH team has won? As far as I'm aware that's happened zero times.


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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 31 Oct - 23:59

No9 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)

F**kin pis$-take that we ALWAYS get Joubert against Australia. This game was over before it even started.

Thought the same.. would be much fairer if we had Nigel Owens reff'ing the game..

Not sure if that would be fair but Owens is certainly a far better referee. Joubert is one of the worst and NH teams can't get on with him.

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Post by Cyril on Tue 1 Nov - 0:26

mikey_dragon wrote: I'd be interested to know if Joubert has actually reffed a NH vs SH game where the NH team has won? As far as I'm aware that's happened zero times.
England beat Australia 23-7 in the second summer test this year with Joubert reffing.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 0:37

Cyril wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote: I'd be interested to know if Joubert has actually reffed a NH vs SH game where the NH team has won? As far as I'm aware that's happened zero times.
England beat Australia 23-7 in the second summer test this year with Joubert reffing.

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

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Post by True Raven on Tue 1 Nov - 0:39

Warburton is out and L Williams is a doubt.

To be honest even if Warburton was fit there is no way he deserves that 7 shirt over Tipuric and id rather Moriarty at 6

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 1 Nov - 0:39

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:As far as I can see, Joubert's only refereed Wales v Australia three times ever.

The last time he did, he was a joke. I can remember the Aussies getting twice as long advantages for pens and knock on's, he was almost instantly calling advantage over for us, but he would let them have about eight phases. Also, I will not talk about the reffing of the breakdown and scrums. steam

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Post by No9 on Tue 1 Nov - 0:47

True Raven wrote:Warburton is out and L Williams is a doubt.

To be honest even if Warburton was fit there is no way he deserves that 7 shirt over Tipuric and id rather Moriarty at 6

Where's this gem come from .. Cant find anything posted anywhere that confirms this..

Agree, Warbs isn't ready, and would go with Moriarty and Tips, but Liam out is a bigger blow. Saying that, I want to see Liam at 15 not on the wing. If Halfpenny is coming back into the fold, put him on the wing, as always believed its a better position for him.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 0:47

True Raven wrote:Warburton is out and L Williams is a doubt.

To be honest even if Warburton was fit there is no way he deserves that 7 shirt over Tipuric and id rather Moriarty at 6

Agree. Williams is a big loss though - probably one of very few players who could get into that All Blacks team last summer...

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Post by True Raven on Tue 1 Nov - 0:54

No9 wrote:
True Raven wrote:Warburton is out and L Williams is a doubt.

To be honest even if Warburton was fit there is no way he deserves that 7 shirt over Tipuric and id rather Moriarty at 6

Where's this gem come from .. Cant find anything posted anywhere that confirms this..

Agree, Warbs isn't ready, and would go with Moriarty and Tips, but Liam out is a bigger blow. Saying that, I want to see Liam at 15 not on the wing. If Halfpenny is coming back into the fold, put him on the wing, as always believed its a better position for him.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sam-warburton-ruled-out-wales-12103694

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Post by No9 on Tue 1 Nov - 0:59

True Raven wrote:
No9 wrote:
True Raven wrote:Warburton is out and L Williams is a doubt.

To be honest even if Warburton was fit there is no way he deserves that 7 shirt over Tipuric and id rather Moriarty at 6

Where's this gem come from .. Cant find anything posted anywhere that confirms this..

Agree, Warbs isn't ready, and would go with Moriarty and Tips, but Liam out is a bigger blow. Saying that, I want to see Liam at 15 not on the wing. If Halfpenny is coming back into the fold, put him on the wing, as always believed its a better position for him.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sam-warburton-ruled-out-wales-12103694


Mmmm .... fingers crossed on Liam then.. But he shouldn't play if he's not recovered. Cant risk making the injury worse.

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 1 Nov - 1:02

Wales would never rush Liam Williams back either. They've never done it before.

It annoys me when they delay the team announcement. If there are doubts over players, they shouldn't play. No amount of crossfit or meaningless money grabbing test match is going to help players like Liam Williams.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 1 Nov - 1:11

mikey_dragon wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:As far as I can see, Joubert's only refereed Wales v Australia three times ever.

Feel like a lot of recent games. Our last one in Cardiff and two in Aus the last time we played there I know Joubert was officiating. Are you sure there aren't more? I'd be interested to know if Joubert has actually reffed a NH vs SH game where the NH team has won? As far as I'm aware that's happened zero times.

As far as I can see he's only refereed three of them since we last beat the Wallabies. Maybe he refereed one before then?

I was surprised how many Wales-Australia games Wayne Barnes has refereed.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 1:17

I actually like what they're doing. Edwards has said they'll be sending Warburton back for game time with Blues before he plays for Wales. They also did the same with Lydiate and Baldwin. When have they ever done this? I can remember all the times they just threw these players back in against high class teams and we'd end up getting soundly beaten. It's better to learn late than never I suppose.

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Post by munkian on Tue 1 Nov - 1:43

A lot of calls for Moriarty at 6 but the real glaring hole in our squad is 8.
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 1 Nov - 1:53

munkian wrote:A lot of calls for Moriarty at 6 but the real glaring hole in our squad is 8.

Why would you want to negate the best attributes of a player by playing in a position where we already have a specialist to play ? Put Moriarty at 6, he his currently our best player in that position.

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Post by munkian on Tue 1 Nov - 1:54

LordDowlais wrote:
munkian wrote:A lot of calls for Moriarty at 6 but the real glaring hole in our squad is 8.

Why would you want to negate the best attributes of a player by playing in a position where we already have a specialist to play ? Put Moriarty at 6, he his currently our best player in that position.

Are you assuming that Faletau will be fit ?
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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 2:04

I think he's referring to Baker starting at 8. I'm not convinced he can come in and do a job though, but would love to be proven wrong.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 1 Nov - 2:11

Baker should start at 8. Because that is his position, he is a specialist number 8. Moriarty is a class number 6, leave him there to play that position. We have an obsession here in Wales to play players out of position.

If Baker struggles at 8 for Wales, then we can experiment, but for now, my back row would be:-

6. Moriarty
7. Tuperic
8. Baker

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 2:12

LordDowlais wrote:Baker should start at 8. Because that is his position, he is a specialist number 8. Moriarty is a class number 6, leave him there to play that position. We have an obsession here in Wales to play players out of position.

If Baker struggles at 8 for Wales, then we can experiment, but for now, my back row would be:-

6. Moriarty
7. Tuperic
8. Baker

So if he does struggle, then we'll bring him off anyway and probably put Moriarty to 8. You seem to be ignoring form again.

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Post by munkian on Tue 1 Nov - 2:16

Baker is not a test quality 8. He can't/won't tackle for a start.
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 1 Nov - 2:17

mikey_dragon wrote:So if he does struggle, then we'll bring him off anyway and probably put Moriarty to 8. You seem to be ignoring form again.

Who's form ?

Baker has been playing well for Ospreys. You were banging on how Ardron was keeping him out early doors, but anyone would have looked good against the two Italian sides and an out of sort Connacht, as soon as Leinster turned up Ardron struggled, along with a lot of others, but Baker came on for him and made a massive difference and has been doing it for Ospreys ever since.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 1 Nov - 2:17

munkian wrote:Baker is not a test quality 8. He can't/won't tackle for a start.

He is the best Welsh 8 playing in Wales.

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Post by munkian on Tue 1 Nov - 2:19

Not saying much...
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 1 Nov - 2:26

munkian wrote:Not saying much...

I would rather we maximised Moriarty's ability at 6, than sacrifice that ability to play him in a position where he is not as affective when we already have somebody who would be just as affective/unaffective there anyway. Why do we obsess with playing players out of position all the time, Moriarty is a 6, lets play him there, Baker is an 8, lets play him there.

Knowing Howler, he will play Moriarty there though, and I dread to think if Warburton was fit, he would probably put him at 8 even.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 2:28

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:So if he does struggle, then we'll bring him off anyway and probably put Moriarty to 8. You seem to be ignoring form again.

Who's form ?

Baker has been playing well for Ospreys. You were banging on how Ardron was keeping him out early doors, but anyone would have looked good against the two Italian sides and an out of sort Connacht, as soon as Leinster turned up Ardron struggled, along with a lot of others, but Baker came on for him and made a massive difference and has been doing it for Ospreys ever since.

So you ignore the form of Ardron, and champion that of Baker? Odd. I've been on record lately saying that Baker is playing well in recent weeks, but I'd be apprehensive to start him because of his last start for Wales where he looked like a total amateur. He could be another James King but it's a little early to say that. At the start of the season you were championing Baker because anyway just because he's an 8 so you certainly have ignored form.

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Post by True Raven on Tue 1 Nov - 2:29

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:So if he does struggle, then we'll bring him off anyway and probably put Moriarty to 8. You seem to be ignoring form again.

Who's form ?

Baker has been playing well for Ospreys. You were banging on how Ardron was keeping him out early doors, but anyone would have looked good against the two Italian sides and an out of sort Connacht, as soon as Leinster turned up Ardron struggled, along with a lot of others, but Baker came on for him and made a massive difference and has been doing it for Ospreys ever since.

Ardron injured his thumb and has been out of action. Ardron is the Ospreys best 8, no question about that.

I'd play King there, he works well with Tips and he wont let you down

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 1 Nov - 2:32

mikey_dragon wrote: but I'd be apprehensive to start him because of his last start for Wales where he looked like a total amateur.

that is a bit harsh considering the team he was playing in, and against.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 2:34

True Raven wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:So if he does struggle, then we'll bring him off anyway and probably put Moriarty to 8. You seem to be ignoring form again.

Who's form ?

Baker has been playing well for Ospreys. You were banging on how Ardron was keeping him out early doors, but anyone would have looked good against the two Italian sides and an out of sort Connacht, as soon as Leinster turned up Ardron struggled, along with a lot of others, but Baker came on for him and made a massive difference and has been doing it for Ospreys ever since.

Ardron injured his thumb and has been out of action.  Ardron is the Ospreys best 8, no question about that.

I'd play King there, he works well with Tips and he wont let you down

But Baker is an 8 and we're all obsessed with putting wingers in the back-row rather than specialists in their positions?

I'd be surprised and somewhat impressed if the coaches went with a very Ospreysesque team - Davies, AWJ, King, Tips, Baker - Webb, Biggar. If they're feeling lazy then I guess they will.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 2:35

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote: but I'd be apprehensive to start him because of his last start for Wales where he looked like a total amateur.

that is a bit harsh considering the team he was playing in, and against.

He was the one player on the field to be in good form for his team and look like a complete amateur. The same can be said for James King, but always happy to be proven wrong should they step in and play well.

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Post by irnbrew on Tue 1 Nov - 2:51

I keep saying on here how good moriarty is have you forgot in the first two games against tha blacks he missed 11 tackles so what are you basing his form on Lydiate wouldn't miss 11 in a season and tips will need all the help he can get at the break down so don't be dismissing lyds so soon

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Post by miaow on Tue 1 Nov - 2:56

mikey_dragon wrote:I actually like what they're doing. Edwards has said they'll be sending Warburton back for game time with Blues before he plays for Wales. They also did the same with Lydiate and Baldwin. When have they ever done this? I can remember all the times they just threw these players back in against high class teams and we'd end up getting soundly beaten. It's better to learn late than never I suppose.

The difference between Gatland and Howley's coaching perhaps? Howley's looking more long term than Gatland tends to, wants to foster genuine depth in Wales when injuries present the opportunity. Also, more trust in "attacking" players, therefore Tipuric in and Lydiate/Warburton out isn't the anathema it has been to Gatland in the past.

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Post by miaow on Tue 1 Nov - 3:11

True Raven wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:So if he does struggle, then we'll bring him off anyway and probably put Moriarty to 8. You seem to be ignoring form again.

Who's form ?

Baker has been playing well for Ospreys. You were banging on how Ardron was keeping him out early doors, but anyone would have looked good against the two Italian sides and an out of sort Connacht, as soon as Leinster turned up Ardron struggled, along with a lot of others, but Baker came on for him and made a massive difference and has been doing it for Ospreys ever since.

Ardron injured his thumb and has been out of action.  Ardron is the Ospreys best 8, no question about that.

I'd play King there, he works well with Tips and he wont let you down

This seems the best 'safe' option. It seems to make most sense to stick Baker in at 8, as he is the next in line. But then you consider the opposition, realise it's Australia, and the very real possibility of Baker being out of his depth. King has that sense of solidity that, as you say, he won't let you down, even if he does nothing remarkable. It does mean that we'd lose a dynamic ball carrier, putting more pressure on Moriarty, Ken Owens, the centres, and perhaps even Tipuric, to look to break tackles and get someone on their shoulder. But then if Baker is out of his depth, he doesn't do the graft King does. I think with losing the workrate of the first choice backrow, and bringing in Moriarty and Tipuric who are incredibly taleneted but (less so in Tipuric's case) don't necessarily do the same dog work as Lydiate-Faletau-Warburton, you wouldn't be doing too badly having the unassuming workrate King provides.

It's about balance, realising that Wales cannot get away with carrying people in their teams as they do in the 6Ns at times, and particularly in Pro12. First game up, need to bridge that gap of "getting up to speed" as much as possible, and that means you perhaps don't play Baker until Argentina or Japan, giving him a shot against South Africa if he does well in those games instead of first up against Australia. The opposition is key. Any weak position will be exploited. I'd question Baker's fitness, the impact his ball carrying actually has in the test arena, and how much graft he is able and willing to put in in the tight exchanges, where Australia will be like hawks from 1-8 at the breakdown. Can't afford passengers. I think Baker may be one until he gets a run of games/builds up a head of steam, and I think it would be better to bed him in later in the series than first up.

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Post by miaow on Tue 1 Nov - 3:17

irnbrew wrote:I keep saying on here how good  moriarty is have you forgot in the first two games against tha blacks he missed 11 tackles so what are you basing  his form on Lydiate wouldn't miss 11 in a season  and tips will need all the help he can get at the break down  so don't be dismissing lyds so soon

Lydiate wouldn't get close enough to miss them in the kind of open game Wales and the All Blacks played down in NZ.

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Post by munkian on Tue 1 Nov - 3:33

Putting a ball carrying 6 at 8 isn't exactly putting a winger there...
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Post by True Raven on Tue 1 Nov - 3:40

I do hope Howley sees past Lydiate being the best 6. King and Tipuric at the Ospreys is a much better combination then it is when it's lydiate and Tipuric.

And yes miaow that's what I meant when I said I'd play king at 8 and moriarty at 6 as king will make the tackles and moriarty can carry

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Post by munkian on Tue 1 Nov - 3:44

You'd have your 8 tackling and your 6 carrying ? What about from behind the scrum ?
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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 1 Nov - 3:47

King carrying off the back of a scrum is a fail, as was the case in NZ.

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Wales v Australia, 5 November Empty Re: Wales v Australia, 5 November

Post by George Carlin on Tue 1 Nov - 4:06

Can Moriarty really not play at 8? Most blindsides can deputise there to an extent.

It does show how special Falatau is that there really isn't another comparable replacement in terms of quality.
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Wales v Australia, 5 November Empty Re: Wales v Australia, 5 November

Post by miaow on Tue 1 Nov - 4:17

Don't think the numbers on the back of the shirt matter massively when in loose play, as long as they know what they're doing and stick to their roles (i.e. each knows what to do when, that doesn't necessarily they each play like archetypal 6s and 8s respectively). The bit where it would be tricker is in the more specialist roles, like carrying from the base of the scrum as mikey points out (rare insight, im impressed).

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Wales v Australia, 5 November Empty Re: Wales v Australia, 5 November

Post by bedfordwelsh on Tue 1 Nov - 8:40

LordDowlais wrote:
munkian wrote:Baker is not a test quality 8. He can't/won't tackle for a start.

He is the best Welsh 8 playing in Wales.

Given the other 3 Regions dont have welsh qualified players at 8 that's hardly a great recommendation.
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Tue 1 Nov - 8:51

I dont think we'll see a great difference in the side Williams and Davies picked on ScrumV, maybe odd difference but nothing major.
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Post by Fanster on Tue 1 Nov - 9:04

bedfordwelsh wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
munkian wrote:Baker is not a test quality 8. He can't/won't tackle for a start.

He is the best Welsh 8 playing in Wales.

Given the other 3 Regions dont have welsh qualified players at 8 that's hardly a great recommendation.

Josh Navidi?

I'll get my coat!

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Wales v Australia, 5 November Empty Re: Wales v Australia, 5 November

Post by George Carlin on Tue 1 Nov - 15:04

The hype about Giles is becoming deafening.

If L Williams is not fit, will he play and should he play?
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Post by wayne on Tue 1 Nov - 18:26

George Carlin wrote:The hype about Giles is becoming deafening.

If L Williams is not fit, will he play and should he play?

NO

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Post by True Raven on Tue 1 Nov - 19:28

George Carlin wrote:The hype about Giles is becoming deafening.

If L Williams is not fit, will he play and should he play?

I'd prefer Amos in the back three.

Giles has only started three senior games for us this season and while he looks supremely talented needs a season or two playing for the Os first before the international game, much like Walker

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