England v South Africa, 12 November

First topic message reminder :

       
ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

37 Played 37
12 Won 23
2 Drawn 2
23 Lost 12
592 Points 780

B. Recent Form

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 Draw

16 June 2012
Coca-Cola Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

9 June 2012
Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
22 – 17 to South Africa

27 November 2010
Twickenham, London
11 – 21 to South Africa

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

Mike Brown (Harlequins); Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers); Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby).

SOUTH AFRICA

Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles), Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers), Patrick Lambie (Cell C Sharks), Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls); Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), Adriaan Strauss (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Vincent Koch (Saracens), Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Willem Alberts (Stade Francais), Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes).

Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux), Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams), Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), Johan Goosen (Racing 92), Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears).

George Carlin wrote:Bilt - how will this Bok side who played the Barbarians compare to the test side for England?:

George it is hard to say, Allister Coetzee has not shown any consistency in selections, he seems to jump around with his selections, I don't think he knows what he is doing.

The appointment of Coetzee and his assistants scream at you for obvious reasons, they are truly out of their depth.

If you look at the players, they may not be world beaters, but they are all solid players, with a number of them who could be stars in future.

But when your coach is not coaching you are in trouble.

At least PDV had a boatload of senior players who could lead the team.

Coetzee has no real group of leaders and reminds me of a headless chicken.

Not much news out of the England camp. Josh Beaumont remains with the squad to cover for Lawes - so they are obviously concerned that Lawes is 50/50 on If he will play or not.
Any more injuries in the engine room or the back row and EJ will have to do some proper 'outside the box' thinking about selection.

Stick Banahan in the second row

Or , you know, play a lock there.

OK, hypothetical - Lawes isn't fit for SA. Attwood starts with Launchbury. Josh Beaumont on Bench.
Attwood or Launchbury are injured - Beaumont comes into the starting 15. Who covers 2nd row on the bench?
Charlie Ewels is a back row isn't he - or does he cover 2nd row? Something tells me he played 2nd row for Saxons against SA A.
If not Charlie then you presumably start looking at Kitch, Slater, Lee's, Barrow?


On a side note - does anyone know how long Kruis and Itoje are out for anyway?

Ewels is a lock who covers back row. Beaumont a fair while ago used to be a lock. I'd much rather he have Kitchener there now. Hope it's a master stroke if we do have Beaumont there in the end but at the moment after watching a back row struggle there for NZ it's an area I'm a little worried about, if Lwaes isn't fit.

I think they said about a week ago Itoje was out for 6 weeks - so 5 more. Kruis is probably similar.

Probably back either late December.

OK, so our current back up resources are Beaumont and Ewels - they might be very good but it doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence.

Alan - there's a whole world of free streaming out there that you would be interested in if you have a fast enough internet connection. PM me.

12 losses in a row v SA. Surely if England lose this after a series white wash in Australia then something is wrong. This isnt a good SA side. Ill be disappointed if England lose.

SA are an easy team to outsmart tactically so hopefully Jones has a few tricks up his sleeve to get the win.

1 loss in a row. We got a draw in the last game in SA from memory. But yes, they're there for the taking.

No 7&1/2 wrote:1 loss in a row. We got a draw in the last game in SA from memory. But yes, they're there for the taking.

12 games in a row without a win then which is just as bad.

Well, very nearly yes!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well, very nearly yes!

Well lets hope England win because I think loss is a bit of a set back to be honest.

Depends on the loss. I'll judge from the game but at present we should win.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Or , you know, play a lock there.

That's what he said, play Banahan in the second row.

Bananaman played all his early career at lock and could easily revert later on in his career if he lost his pace.

You'll be saying Sinkler can still play full. back next.

Lawes declared fit anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'll be saying Sinkler can still play full. back next.

Why, did Quins bring him is as a fullback?

Banahan was a lock when he was at Irish's academy and was brought to Bath as a lock, not a winger or centre.

He's still not a lock now. Sinkler did start at 15...then got fat.

It was slightly tongue in cheek guys!

BamBam wrote:It was slightly tongue in cheek guys!

I know, but I have seen worse suggestions and some selections. At least Banahan has a history of playing at lock, albeit some years ago. he still has the stature to play there, now a certain Italian section at 9.......................................

Lawes fit. Fantastic news. Gives us a line-out jumper to try to pressure SA - usually unsuccessfully in that area but still pressure will be greater with Lawes than Attwood. Also gives us a line-out caller and primary jumper with significant international experience. Plus Attwood on the bench who has called for England before. Had Attwood been starting then gone off injured the line-out would have been in real trouble.

1.Vunipola 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Harrison 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Rokoduguni 15.Brown

16.George 17.Marler 18.Sinckler 19.Attwood 20.Hughes/Wood 21.Care 22.Daly 23.Goode

Looks like that 23 is increasingly nailed on. Far from EJs first choice but still plenty of quality and experience.

Looks ok to me, if Lawes/Harrison perform to what we know they can I think we'll be ok

Hopefully Roko and May get some ball to really test the SA defence

Being poorly coached the South African defensive organisation has been urine poor under Coetzee. They are conceding 3 tries per test this year

Biltong I feel like you are underestimating South Africa.

Going to be tough for England.

Having Lawes fit is a huge boost. Happy-ish with most of the side, only question for me is whether Harrison is up to it and I'll guess we will see

The positive is that I don't think Jones will hesitate to change things if certain players don't perform.

king carlos with that bench we would have to hope wingers don't get crocked.

I just hope Jonny May doesn't stick his nose in the wrong place ..

Tbf, Joseph to wing and Daly at 13 isn't the most terrible solution, much rather that than have Brown on the wing

I'm sure I've seen Daly on the wing for Wasps...

At least he has the pace to play there

You can't have a specialist for every position so there's always a risk someone will have to cover somewhere.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lawes declared fit anyway.

Curious about the bench now. Jones said Launchbury/Attwood is unbalanced but, if he selects Attwood on the bench, he'll end up with that if Lawes' injury plays up.

Then again, it's still not beyond the realms of possibility he selects Lawes as his hard-hitting Haskell replacement.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lawes declared fit anyway.

Curious about the bench now. Jones said Launchbury/Attwood is unbalanced but, if he selects Attwood on the bench, he'll end up with that if Lawes' injury plays up.

Then again, it's still not beyond the realms of possibility he selects Lawes as his hard-hitting Haskell replacement.

I do have concerns about how fit Lawes actually is. The leg does seem to be a long term problem these days.

lostinwales wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lawes declared fit anyway.

Curious about the bench now. Jones said Launchbury/Attwood is unbalanced but, if he selects Attwood on the bench, he'll end up with that if Lawes' injury plays up.

Then again, it's still not beyond the realms of possibility he selects Lawes as his hard-hitting Haskell replacement.

I do have concerns about how fit Lawes actually is. The leg does seem to be a long term problem these days.

I think this one is a bit different, it wasn't a muscle or stringy thing injury, he bruised a bone. It takes a big wallop to do that as I know from experience. He might be fit to play, but he will be feeling it for a long time.

"A bone bruise is a lot more painful and the pain lasts longer than the giant swelling of a bruise on the skin or in the muscle. It is one step before a fracture. The bone has a cortex with interconnected fibers and calcium fills the spaces between the fibers. When the bone strikes something, those fibers break and leak out the contents held between them. If enough fibers break then the result is a fracture of the bone. A bone bruise occurs when only a few of the fibers break."

Well that is good news. Lawes has been very good in his last few international games. Crazy that he's probably 4th choice for us these days.

A "bone bruise", as I understand it, is essentially a fracture of sorts... Just wouldn't be serious enough to merit particularly active treatment, able to displace or show up on X-ray

But if Doc Gray is about, I'll defer to his orthopaedic knowledge! It's a misconception that bony injuries are always worse than soft tissue ones anyway

So we were all agreed a short while ago Morgan shouldn't have been rushed back...still happy to see Lawes in over the alternatives (in the squad at least).

Just have to trust Eddie not to play him unless he's happy that he's properly fit!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Just have to trust Eddie not to play him unless he's happy that he's properly fit!

Well, Eddie has form for playing people when they aren't fully fit. It's related to the absolute commitment and loyalty he demands as a coach.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So we were all agreed a short while ago Morgan shouldn't have been rushed back...still happy to see Lawes in over the alternatives (in the squad at least).

Morgan was a serious leg break. He's also a guy who seems to have 'issues' over fitness (i.e. he needs a lot of work to get into and maintain good shape). That isn't the case with Lawes, I just feel uneasy over the way his leg is always so heavily strapped (e.g. last RWC). He was really good in Australia in all aspects of his play though.

Hey personally, I would have rushed Morgan back if deemed fit enough and I would have Lawes back. As I would have Hartley back in the squad.

beshocked wrote:The positive is that I don't think Jones will hesitate to change things if certain players don't perform.

king carlos with that bench we would have to hope wingers don't get crocked.

Joseph to wing with Daly at 13. That was how the wings were covered for the 6 Nations if I remember correctly.

beshocked wrote:Biltong I feel like you are underestimating South Africa.

Going to be tough for England.

No mate, This South African rugby team is the worst coached team since our re admission.

Biltong....I don't care what you say I am (obviously) very worried about England's prospects against the Boks. You have world class players in Strauss, the Beast, Etzebeth, Lood de Jaeger (sic)as well as some other very strong players. There is some experience there as well. Combine this with some exciting new talent and this is a side which of course can win. However, I do accept that they are not playing well and it is a good time for England to end their losing streak. But I expect it to be close. England are without Itoje who has been amazing in the lineout as well as his all-round play and Haskell who has provided much dynamism and gain line toughness. So a tough battle and it will be interesting to see how both teams approach it. Will they try and win the match and score tries or just try to make themselves hard to beat and hope to nick a result?

Didn't realise that South Africa would be missing as many backrowers as us if not more.

England at least have two of their best backrowers available.


Habana and Pietersen against Yarde and May is a serious mismatch. Though I guess it depends how much SA decide to involve their wingers.

Is it? This isn't Habana and Pietersen of 2007

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:Biltong I feel like you are underestimating South Africa.

Going to be tough for England.

No mate, This South African rugby team is the worst coached team since our re admission.

South Africa and Wales but yeah I agree anyway. Sorry but it is true.

king_carlos wrote:Lawes fit. Fantastic news. Gives us a line-out jumper to try to pressure SA - usually unsuccessfully in that area but still pressure will be greater with Lawes than Attwood. Also gives us a line-out caller and primary jumper with significant international experience. Plus Attwood on the bench who has called for England before. Had Attwood been starting then gone off injured the line-out would have been in real trouble.

1.Vunipola 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Harrison 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Rokoduguni 15.Brown

16.George 17.Marler 18.Sinckler 19.Attwood 20.Hughes/Wood 21.Care 22.Daly 23.Goode

Looks like that 23 is increasingly nailed on. Far from EJs first choice but still plenty of quality and experience.

Feel much better seeing that side, just need to hope Brown passes to the guys with pace rather than trying to go all the way on his own.

Will be good to see May back, a favourite of EJ regardless of injury to Nowell - so all in all only a few players off being a 1st XV.