England v South Africa, 12 November

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 10:50 am

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England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Englan10       England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Sa10
ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA
12 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

37 Played 37
12 Won 23
2 Drawn 2
23 Lost 12
592 Points 780

B. Recent Form

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 Draw

16 June 2012
Coca-Cola Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

9 June 2012
Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
22 – 17 to South Africa

27 November 2010
Twickenham, London
11 – 21 to South Africa

C. Teams

ENGLAND 
England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Bulldo10
Mike Brown (Harlequins); Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers); Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby).

SOUTH AFRICA
England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Spring10
Willie le Roux (Canon Eagles), Ruan Combrinck (Xerox Golden Lions), Francois Venter (Toyota Free State Cheetahs), Damian de Allende (DHL Western Province), JP Pietersen (Leicester Tigers), Patrick Lambie (Cell C Sharks), Rudy Paige (Vodacom Blue Bulls); Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks), Adriaan Strauss (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Vincent Koch (Saracens), Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province), Lood de Jager (Vodacom Blue Bulls), Willem Alberts (Stade Francais), Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Western Province), Warren Whiteley (Docomo Red Hurricanes).

Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Western Province), Steven Kitshoff (Bordeaux), Lourens Adriaanse (Cell C Sharks), Franco Mostert (Ricoh Black Rams), Nizaam Carr (DHL Western Province), Faf de Klerk (Xerox Golden Lions), Johan Goosen (Racing 92), Lionel Mapoe (Kubota Spears).


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 10:15 am

Laugh You think it's as trivial as that. Fair enough. I've actually never asked Farrell for an autograph.

Fair enough I stand corrected. Okay Harrison it is then on the bench.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 10:21 am

Could well be, don't know if you won't say. On the pitch he's been fine as captain the couple of times he's had it.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 10:38 am

You are entitled to your opinion no 7 & 1/2. I will endeavor to be more chilled and accommodating of other's opinions. Fair enough if that's how you feel. I wouldn't want Farrell as England captain but if that's what you want then that's what you want.

I would like to see the changes I suggested but I just have to see it as a pleasant surprise if they happen.

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 10:40 am

Beaumont was injury cover for Lawes during the week - they obviously felt it was worth keeping Beaumont involved on matchday for the experience etc. Tommy Taylor was also there on matchday with the water bottles.
If they are 100% fit for Fiji then I would expect Beaumont to be released back to Sale.
While the rest of the series squad will return to camp and prep for the next game - guys like Goode, Slade, Harrison etc. Pushing for selection.

If EJ is going to test anyone then I would like to think that he will do that for the Fiji game - they may not be starting but guys like Sinkler might get more than 10mins.
Maybe Daly will get another start or perhaps he will rotate with Joseph.

Which England wings are best to deal with Nadolo?


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Post by TightHEAD on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 10:47 am

propdavid_london wrote:
Which England wings are best to deal with Nadolo?

Ones who can tackle.
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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 10:49 am

TightHEAD wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:
Which England wings are best to deal with Nadolo?

Ones who can tackle.

Nowell is injured though....

Probably Roko in the circumstances.

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Post by Biltong on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 10:52 am

Congratulations to England.

Score may not have blown out as much as I predicted, but it was comprehensive in every aspect.

Coetzee is clueless, his defensive organisation pathetic, and ball retention non existent.
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Post by Cumbrian on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 11:00 am

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I don't think England need to make too many special allowances against Nadolo/ Fiji. I guess what I am saying is, the game won't be decided by who we pick on the wings and/or their tackling ability.

I think it is a good opportunity to bring in some fresh faces.

As others have said, a good chance to get Jamie George, a new openside and perhaps Hughes into the game. I don't expect massive changes, in order to keep some for of continuity (the way I see it the rest of the year is building toward that final clash with Australia).
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Post by Cumbrian on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 11:08 am

Biltong wrote:Congratulations to England.

Score may not have blown out as much as I predicted, but it was comprehensive in every aspect.

Coetzee is clueless, his defensive organisation pathetic, and ball retention non existent.

Cheers.

From an opposition's point of view it was difficult to know what to make of the Springboks. They seemed to have a game plan to disrupt us at the lineout (evidenced by the player selection), but proceeded not to compete at all. There was plenty of power, but as you say, no defensive organisation. Falling for the Youngs' dummy twice was criminal. I have come to see what you mean about the coaches. The talent is there, but they just looked confused half of the time.

I hope that it get's sorted out soon, I don't like see the Springboks like this (except when they play us!).
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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 11:18 am

If England can turn Hughes into a good international back up no 8 for Billy it will make England even more of a fearsome prospect. I'd start the process vs Fiji.

Cumbrian what would your side vs Fiji look like?

What should England do about Slade in your opinion?

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Post by BamBam on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 11:19 am

PDST is a great lock, just seems crazy to put him out of position where he could be exposed in that way

Smacked of Lawes at 6

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 11:28 am

England are never going to address the backup issue at 12 if no one else is really tried there.
The fact that Teo is picked over Slade to me means that EJ likes the idea of a game and tactical change - being able to swap from a 2 ball playing 10-12s to a ball playing 10- hard running 12 makes sense.
Slade comes in if there is an injury to either Ford or Farrell - Teo takes the bench spot because he offers a different style of play to EJ.

My point though is that we will never know about Slade until he is tested. The same goes for others in perceived positions with less depth - 12, 7, 15.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 11:35 am

propdavid london what would you do?

Do you think Harrison and T'eo could step up?

England could get away with not playing a ball player at 12 if Goode is at 15. Then again Goode needs to answer his critics.

I think a new 12 has to start vs Fiji.

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Post by Mr Fishpaste on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 11:43 am

Cumbrian wrote:
Biltong wrote:Congratulations to England.

Score may not have blown out as much as I predicted, but it was comprehensive in every aspect.

Coetzee is clueless, his defensive organisation pathetic, and ball retention non existent.

Falling for the Youngs' dummy twice was criminal.

PSDT getting sold the dummy twice was evidence of a structural problem rather than an individual error. On both occassions he had no defense covering his inside...if he commits to tackling the scrumhalf then England create an overlap on the outside (a la their first try), and if he commits to drifting wide to prevent the overlap a huge gap is created on his inside...in fact England attacked this structural weakness (between the backline defense and the fringe defense) all day long. The bok defensive patterns were non-existant, and have been all year.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 12:06 pm

BamBam wrote:PDST is a great lock, just seems crazy to put him out of position where he could be exposed in that way

Smacked of Lawes at 6

I assume PDST is a combination of PSDT and PTSD. Understandably so.

I'd think the decision to play PSDT at 6 was worse than playing Lawes there. Firstly because Lawes is a bit more mobile, and secondly because PSDT had Willem Alberts on the other flank. Whatever his merits, Alberts is not the man to make up for a lack of mobility elsewhere.

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 12:20 pm

Yeah its tricky Beshocked - Drop Farrell to accommodate another 12 means Ford has to step up and take the conversions. We have seen that his confidence really takes a knock when things down go his way.

So it might be a case of dropping Ford, shifting Farrell to 10 to start a different 12. Teo or Slade.
As you say, Goode has his critics too.

On Teo or Harrison - I still don't know Beshocked! Harrison presumably still isn't trusted - or else why bring in Wood (and Harrison hasn't had much gametime at club either).


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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 12:27 pm

I wouldn't call it dropping Ford, I would call it resting Ford for the Argentina game.

Same with other "dropped" players.

Alternatively England could rest Farrell, give Ford kicking practice and play a new 12 with Ford.

Certainly doesn't show confidence in Harrison that's for sure! Picking Wood.

This is the game though when Jones could move away from Lancaster-esque selections.

Picking George,Teo and Hughes would be moving away from the Lancaster way of doing things.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 12:29 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
BamBam wrote:PDST is a great lock, just seems crazy to put him out of position where he could be exposed in that way

Smacked of Lawes at 6

I assume PDST is a combination of PSDT and PTSD. Understandably so.

I'd think the decision to play PSDT at 6 was worse than playing Lawes there. Firstly because Lawes is a bit more mobile, and secondly because PSDT had Willem Alberts on the other flank. Whatever his merits, Alberts is not the man to make up for a lack of mobility elsewhere.

Laugh yes I meant PSDT!!


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 12:36 pm

beshocked wrote:You are entitled to your opinion no 7 & 1/2. I will endeavor to be more chilled and accommodating of other's opinions. Fair enough if that's how you feel. I wouldn't want Farrell as England captain but if that's what you want then that's what you want.

I would like to see the changes I suggested but I just have to see it as a pleasant surprise if they happen.

Not about what I want but if Farrell is the only vice captain left on the pitch it'll be him made captain full stop.

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Post by Cumbrian on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 1:43 pm

beshocked wrote:If England can turn Hughes into a good international back up no 8 for Billy it will make England even more of a fearsome prospect. I'd start the process vs Fiji.

Cumbrian what would your side vs Fiji look like?

What should England do about Slade in your opinion?

Team I would pick, with the players that are left in the camp (I think much the same as yours):

01. Joe Marler
02. Jamie George
03. Kyle Sinkler
04. Courtney Lawes
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Chris Robshaw
07. Teimana Harrison
08. Nathan Hughes

09. Danny Care
10. George Ford

11. Marland Yarde
12. Ben Te'o
13. Elliott Daly
14. Jonny May
15. Alex Goode

16. Tommy Taylor
17. Ellis Genge
18. Dan Cole
19. Dave Attwood
20. Ben Youngs
21. Henry Slade
22. Jon Joseph
23. Mike Haley

Give a rest to the two Vunipolas Cole, Hartley, Youngs, Farrell and Brown. Bench positions excepted.

Goode to start but Haley to get at least a half (I might have mentioned I'm a huge fan)

Slade is a talent, but he seems (last time I checked) to be having a difficult second season. I'd have him in the squad for Fiji to give him some experience, but monitor his progress at Exeter for the rest of the season with a view to taking him to Argentina in the summer.
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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 2:06 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
beshocked wrote:If England can turn Hughes into a good international back up no 8 for Billy it will make England even more of a fearsome prospect. I'd start the process vs Fiji.

Cumbrian what would your side vs Fiji look like?

What should England do about Slade in your opinion?

Team I would pick, with the players that are left in the camp (I think much the same as yours):

01. Joe Marler
02. Jamie George
03. Kyle Sinkler
04. Courtney Lawes
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Chris Robshaw
07. Teimana Harrison
08. Nathan Hughes

09. Danny Care
10. George Ford

11. Marland Yarde
12. Ben Te'o
13. Elliott Daly
14. Jonny May
15. Alex Goode

16. Tommy Taylor
17. Ellis Genge
18. Dan Cole
19. Dave Attwood
20. Ben Youngs
21. Henry Slade
22. Jon Joseph
23. Mike Haley

Give a rest to the two Vunipolas Cole, Hartley, Youngs, Farrell and Brown.  Bench positions excepted.

Goode to start but Haley to get at least a half (I might have mentioned I'm a huge fan)

Slade is a talent, but he seems (last time I checked) to be having a difficult second season.  I'd have him in the squad for Fiji to give him some experience, but monitor his progress at Exeter for the rest of the season with a view to taking him to Argentina in the summer.

Thanks for responding.

I would be happy with that 23.

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Post by Poorfour on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 2:27 pm

Not gonna happen, though, is it? Eddie's made it pretty clear that he feels the main squad needs to tighten up a lot before it hits Argentina and Australia, so we might see a couple of swaps of bench and starting position, we might see Roko for Yarde, and we might see some earlier substitutions but we won't see wholesale change.

To take one example, Hartley would clearly benefit from more game time, so I think it's very unlikely George will start, regardless of what beshocked thinks.
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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 2:44 pm

Poorfour depends if you want to think short term or long term. It cost Lancaster his job when he made poor decisions. Now I think Jones is doing so well at the moment that there will be posters who won't question any of Jones' selections, I think that's wrong.

I agree that it's important to be ready for Argentina and Australia, if Jones starts Hartley in every game, then we'll be back in the same position we were at the RWC with lack of gametime for back up hookers.

I think it's much more important that George starts than Hartley. A start for George is long overdue.

England should not rely heavily on individual players. England are in a good position at lock because we have 4 good options.

Another strong no 8 needs to be found and we hope that's Hughes.

England must also try other options at 12.

Fiji won't be a walkover but then again England should win quite comfortably.

If you don't make changes now then when?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 2:52 pm

There's the question of how much benefit does a 1 off game or chance add? Would Daly now not hugely benefit ffom 4 starts?

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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:01 pm

It's about having two first choices instead of 1. It's about building the squad and improving the overall strength.

At lock I feel like we have 4 first choices now.

Yes perhaps Daly would benefit.

A one off game is better than not being trusted by the coaches at all.

Resting players also protects and prevents them from picking up injuries before playing in subsequent games.

I think it's important not to overwork players.

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Post by Cyril on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:05 pm

I'm sure we won't see wholesale changes and also think that we shouldn't. The side has already been disrupted by injuries and we want to maintain as much consistency as we can with some tweaking as necessary.

Changing more than half the side doesn't tell you as much about the players coming in as it's not really a fair reflection on how they fit into the system.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:06 pm

Think getting down to 2 is very doable, but the grief Lancaster gets is not having 3rd and 4th.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:07 pm

True Cyril, surely something like just bringing in George, keep the same front row, bring in Roko for May or Goode. Wholesale won't teach us as much?

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Post by cascough on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:08 pm

beshocked wrote:Poorfour depends if you want to think short term or long term. It cost Lancaster his job when he made poor decisions. Now I think Jones is doing so well at the moment that there will be posters who won't question any of Jones' selections, I think that's wrong.

I agree that it's important to be ready for Argentina and Australia, if Jones starts Hartley in every game, then we'll be back in the same position we were at the RWC with lack of gametime for back up hookers.

I think it's much more important that George starts than Hartley. A start for George is long overdue.

England should not rely heavily on individual players. England are in a good position at lock because we have 4 good options.

Another strong no 8 needs to be found and we hope that's Hughes.

England must also try other options at 12.

Fiji won't be a walkover but then again England should win quite comfortably.

If you don't make changes now then when?

I don't think it depends on whether Poorfour is thinking long term or not. He wasn't giving you his ideas on selection he was giving you Eddie Jones'.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think getting down to 2 is very doable, but the grief Lancaster gets is not having 3rd and 4th.

Lancaster didn't have any good proven back up to Hartley or Billy.

Jones needs to fix this. Lancaster's trust in T.Youngs and Morgan was misplaced.

Didn't trust George either - he was his 5th choice hooker after Hartley,Youngs,Webber and LCD.

Lancaster couldn't cobble together an ideal 7 choice or inside centre either. Let alone 2 or 3.

Jones must not make the mistakes Lancaster made.

Ideally a good back up for Cole must be developed too.

cascough well if it's Eddie Jones idea it's not a good one.

England do not need to play a full strength team to beat Fiji.

I am all for keeping a core of the same team but making changes to use the squad, not just relying on individuals.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:16 pm

Youngs and Billy was the back up for Morgan. You don't mean that he didn't have back up you mean he didn't pick your favourites. There is a difference.

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Post by cascough on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:34 pm

You can think it's a bad idea if you like, that's your prerogative of course. But that's not the point being made here. Based on what Jones has said, there won't be wholesale changes. With that in mind, who would be your 23 for the Fiji game?

Let's limit the number of changes to 5 (inc the bench)...

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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:46 pm

cascough I've already said what I think my 23 would be.

no 7 &1/2 ? Hartley was always Lancaster's 1st choice. Billy was the best no 8 in England from 2015 till now, Morgan might have been selected ahead of Billy in the RWC but that just shows the folly of Lancaster.

It's not about picking my favourites or not. It's about getting it wrong which Lancaster did - failing in the RWC is a bit of a clue.....

I would hardly call Hughes a favourite of mine - he just happens to be the 2nd best 8, T'eo certainly wouldn't fit that either but England need to build depth.

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Post by GunsGerms on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:46 pm

Good win for England. I had 7/2 on a SA win. Thought it was worth a pop. It definitely wasn't. England are well organised and seriously powerful. Northern Hemisphere is where it is at now.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:50 pm

Would have been better to bet on Ireland.....


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:51 pm

Yes, you said Lancaster didn't have strength in depth to 2nd choice he did; you just don't agree with his choices. There's a difference to not giving anyone time and iving people time which you didn't agree with.

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Post by cascough on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:55 pm

beshocked wrote:cascough I've already said what I think my 23 would be.


Yes but lovely as it was, it included 13 changes, which isn't going to happen.

So...

With Eddie Jones' comments ringing in your ears, what would your 23 be?

Or to put it another way, if you could only make 5 changes to the 23, where do you consider it most crucial that ENG experiment?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 3:59 pm

George, Goode and Rokoduguni in for me. I'd have Slade and Haley as the bench changes.

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England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Empty Re: England v South Africa, 12 November

Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 4:10 pm

cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:cascough I've already said what I think my 23 would be.


Yes but lovely as it was, it included 13 changes, which isn't going to happen.

So...

With Eddie Jones' comments ringing in your ears, what would your 23 be?

Or to put it another way, if you could only make 5 changes to the 23, where do you consider it most crucial that ENG experiment?



Fine....

1.Mako
2.George
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Launchbury
6.Robshaw
7.Wood
8.Hughes

9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.May
12.Teo
13.Daly
14.Yarde
15.Goode

16.Marler
17.Hartley
18.Sinckler
19.Attwood
20.Harrison
21.Care
22.Farrell
23.Joseph

The 5 changes are George,Hughes,Harrison,Goode and Teo

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England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Empty Re: England v South Africa, 12 November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 4:14 pm

I suspect we'll see a strong side start but subs will be made early.Ie Sinkler getting a full second half.

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England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Empty Re: England v South Africa, 12 November

Post by king_carlos on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 4:55 pm

Attwood has been sent back to Bath after an injection to a pre-existing knee injury that flared up.

Billy V is a doubt after getting a knock on Saturday.

I hope that George, Hughes and Slade (at 12) get a start at the weekend.

I know Slade probably won't but I'd like to see him get a chance at playing Farrell's role. Farrell on the bench could give him a chance to get one at 10 too.

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England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Empty Re: England v South Africa, 12 November

Post by BamBam on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 4:57 pm

Why on earth would we try Goode out for the umpeenth time, and against the Fijians of all teams. One line break and we'll see articulated lorries turn to chase their flyers with more haste

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England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Empty Re: England v South Africa, 12 November

Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 5:17 pm

Why on earth try Goode you say because he's been consistently in better club form than Brown for at least the last season but hasn't had a proper run with Jones in charge yet.

If May can be tried out for the umpteenth time I think Goode should be given another chance too.

It's called rewarding good form. I know that's an alien concept to you.

I am glad if Billy has a slight knock. It forces Jones to pick Hughes at 8 hopefully. Means Billy can be fresh for Argentina.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 5:32 pm

If Hughes performs well I'm assuming you'd want him to carry on at 8 vs Argentina?

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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 5:39 pm

Why do you say that? I'd certainly have him on the bench vs Argentina.

Billy has been in great form, no need to replace him unless he's not fully fit.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 5:44 pm

Would be going only on rewarding Hughes if he plays well and obviously with him being ruled out of this game with a slight knock I thought you may not consider him 100%? Plus Hughes needs starts before we blood the 3rd choice 8.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 5:49 pm

I would hope Billy would be fully fit for Argentina if it's only a slight knock.

I agree Hughes needs a start hence why Fiji is an ideal opponent.

What are you having trouble understanding?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 5:58 pm

Nothing. Just searching for consistency in your arguments.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 6:20 pm

king_carlos wrote:Attwood has been sent back to Bath after an injection to a pre-existing knee injury that flared up.

Billy V is a doubt after getting a knock on Saturday.

I hope that George, Hughes and Slade (at 12) get a start at the weekend.

I know Slade probably won't but I'd like to see him get a chance at playing Farrell's role. Farrell on the bench could give him a chance to get one at 10 too.

Considering what he did to Etzebeth you'd have to think he took some damage too.

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England v South Africa, 12 November - Page 12 Empty Re: England v South Africa, 12 November

Post by George Carlin on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 7:09 pm

George Carlin
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