The Donald Trump Incredulity Thread

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Post by George Carlin on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 8:36 am

First topic message reminder :

I know that this doesn't relate to rugby, but feel free to say what you want about the 45th (and presumably final) president of the United States.

A man John Oliver once described as "a large clown made of dessicated foreskin and cotton candy".
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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 4:18 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
George W was a puppet on a string. Congress/Senate may be Republican friendly, but they are not Trump friendly. I don't believe at all that Trump will be able to push through his more bizarre foreign and economic policies. His own party will not allow him to damage US interests. Not just damaging to the US, but damaging to the republican party. It still isn't ideal, but not as catastrophic as some are predicting.

I hope you are right but history scares me, so many Republicans just flipped out to get close to the Tea Party when they had their run a few years back. You had men like John McCain calling America a Christian country and its enshrined in the constitution when it says the opposite

It isn't enshrined in the constitution but it's as near as ("In God We Trust"). The reason it isn't enshrined in the constitution is because many of the emigrants arriving in the US, at the time, were fleeing religious persecution, by the Catholic church, the Protestant church or the Anglican church. Ulster folk included. It wasn't that the majority were opposed to the Christian faith playing a central part in the shaping of US politics. It was that they were opposed to those who would seek to deny them the right to practice their faith, whatever branch of the faith that may be.

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 4:26 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Calm down guys kiss

I wouldn't have believed Trump was electable a few months ago, but having followed the election since then, I'm not all that surprised.

People voted for Trump for different reasons, but I have to think the US public is disillusioned with the Obama administration, and perhaps the establishment as a whole.

I've no doubt there are "stupid voters", but there are also "desperate voters", who may fear a vote for Clinton is a vote for the status quo. Something they feel isn't going to improve their quality of life, or help stabilise a world seemingly coming apart at the seams. Something that can be largely attributed to US foreign policy.

I think it's a bad decision, but don't believe it will be as bad as people are making out. I hope not anyway. Trump is one man at the head of an administration. He won't simply be able to impose his will, whatever that may be. There are checks and balances (it's not a dictatorship), and he will face opposition from his political opponents, as well as from within his own party. George W wasn't left to rule the roost, thankfully!

My biggest concern about Trump is that he isn't a statesman, or someone that the international community can easily trust. I think he is divisive, but hopefully he can be more diplomatic than he has been on this vicious campaign, and vicious from both sides.


 I would go further to say that many voters would have been taken down the train of thought that by voting for Clinton that they were just going to get four more years of Obama, and  many Americans feel they are far  worse off now than they were eight years ago. this message was probably given more credence over the last couple of weeks when Obama went out actively campaigning for Clinton,  calling voters stupid is criticising  their right to choose, but yes some are stupid and the USA doesnt have that exclusively.

I agree, and that's what I meant by not 'voting for the status quo'.

The Clinton campaign scored an own goal by calling Trump supporters stupid. The same with labelling them as racist or misogynist. That type of labelling is as untrue as it is shallow. And counter productive as it just serves to harden attitudes.

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Post by marty2086 on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 4:29 pm

Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
George W was a puppet on a string. Congress/Senate may be Republican friendly, but they are not Trump friendly. I don't believe at all that Trump will be able to push through his more bizarre foreign and economic policies. His own party will not allow him to damage US interests. Not just damaging to the US, but damaging to the republican party. It still isn't ideal, but not as catastrophic as some are predicting.

I hope you are right but history scares me, so many Republicans just flipped out to get close to the Tea Party when they had their run a few years back. You had men like John McCain calling America a Christian country and its enshrined in the constitution when it says the opposite

It isn't enshrined in the constitution but it's as near as ("In God We Trust"). The reason it isn't enshrined in the constitution is because many of the emigrants arriving in the US, at the time, were fleeing religious persecution, by the Catholic church, the Protestant church or the Anglican church. Ulster folk included. It wasn't that the majority were opposed to the Christian faith playing a central part in the shaping of US politics. It was that they were opposed to those who would seek to deny them the right to practice their faith, whatever branch of the faith that may be.

You are correct, my point however is that the party have a history of following the crowd in an attempt to curry electoral favour with the populace.

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 4:35 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
George W was a puppet on a string. Congress/Senate may be Republican friendly, but they are not Trump friendly. I don't believe at all that Trump will be able to push through his more bizarre foreign and economic policies. His own party will not allow him to damage US interests. Not just damaging to the US, but damaging to the republican party. It still isn't ideal, but not as catastrophic as some are predicting.

I hope you are right but history scares me, so many Republicans just flipped out to get close to the Tea Party when they had their run a few years back. You had men like John McCain calling America a Christian country and its enshrined in the constitution when it says the opposite

It isn't enshrined in the constitution but it's as near as ("In God We Trust"). The reason it isn't enshrined in the constitution is because many of the emigrants arriving in the US, at the time, were fleeing religious persecution, by the Catholic church, the Protestant church or the Anglican church. Ulster folk included. It wasn't that the majority were opposed to the Christian faith playing a central part in the shaping of US politics. It was that they were opposed to those who would seek to deny them the right to practice their faith, whatever branch of the faith that may be.

You are correct, my point however is that the party have a history of following the crowd in an attempt to curry electoral favour with the populace.

That is true for all sides though, and will never change in a democracy. They don't follow the crowd as much as give lip service to them. Politicians are snake oil merchants, and Trump and Clinton are no different.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 4:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:It'll take four.. or eight.. years to find out.

I know like all this stuff there is a good chance that nothing much practical will actually change, but with the Republicans in control of everything else there is an opportunity for things to be changed if Trump and they see eye to eye.

There are of course lots of possible outcomes and what happens in the USA doesn't directly influence us, but you do have to worry about the Ukraine and the smaller ex USSR states if the US decides they are someone else's problem and Putin is looking to increase Russian influence and distract his subjects from the economic woes at home

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Post by marty2086 on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 4:42 pm

Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
George W was a puppet on a string. Congress/Senate may be Republican friendly, but they are not Trump friendly. I don't believe at all that Trump will be able to push through his more bizarre foreign and economic policies. His own party will not allow him to damage US interests. Not just damaging to the US, but damaging to the republican party. It still isn't ideal, but not as catastrophic as some are predicting.

I hope you are right but history scares me, so many Republicans just flipped out to get close to the Tea Party when they had their run a few years back. You had men like John McCain calling America a Christian country and its enshrined in the constitution when it says the opposite

It isn't enshrined in the constitution but it's as near as ("In God We Trust"). The reason it isn't enshrined in the constitution is because many of the emigrants arriving in the US, at the time, were fleeing religious persecution, by the Catholic church, the Protestant church or the Anglican church. Ulster folk included. It wasn't that the majority were opposed to the Christian faith playing a central part in the shaping of US politics. It was that they were opposed to those who would seek to deny them the right to practice their faith, whatever branch of the faith that may be.

You are correct, my point however is that the party have a history of following the crowd in an attempt to curry electoral favour with the populace.

That is true for all sides though, and will never change in a democracy. They don't follow the crowd as much as give lip service to them. Politicians are snake oil merchants, and Trump and Clinton are no different.

Not so true though in America, the Democrats never pulled to the left during the Anti Vietnam movement they tend to move right rather than left. While it was Democrats who pushed through the CRA it almost had to be explained to them on why it was wrong and it was a hugely unpopular thing at the time

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 4:49 pm

lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It'll take four.. or eight.. years to find out.

I know like all this stuff there is a good chance that nothing much practical will actually change, but with the Republicans in control of everything else there is an opportunity for things to be changed if Trump and they see eye to eye.

There are of course lots of possible outcomes and what happens in the USA doesn't directly influence us, but you do have to worry about the Ukraine and the smaller ex USSR states if the US decides they are someone else's problem and Putin is looking to increase Russian influence and distract his subjects from the economic woes at home

Or maybe Trump will stop talking war-talk in relation to Russia. Maybe he'll go say that sanctions will be lifted in return for Putin calling off his war dogs in eastern Ukraine.  Never forget that the Ukrainian situation exploded when those elements within Ukraine that didn't want further economic co-operation with Russia chased the legally elected leader out of office.
Is not co-operation within Europe (and Russia lies within Europe) not the goal?  Less talk of war and more talk of mutual values and cooperation, and trade, between European Nations.  It's only when no European Nation feels threatened by One Bloc (Russian) or another Bloc (EU) that communities on that Russian/EU border won't feel the need to distrust each other but live to trade and travel and value each other.
Maybe Trump might try that?  Maybe talk of NATO lining up on the borders of Russia might cease and that might ease Putin's worries?

Maybe Trump will be less war-monger than the present raspy administration?  Why should his Presidency only present doomsday possibilities?

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 4:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
George W was a puppet on a string. Congress/Senate may be Republican friendly, but they are not Trump friendly. I don't believe at all that Trump will be able to push through his more bizarre foreign and economic policies. His own party will not allow him to damage US interests. Not just damaging to the US, but damaging to the republican party. It still isn't ideal, but not as catastrophic as some are predicting.

I hope you are right but history scares me, so many Republicans just flipped out to get close to the Tea Party when they had their run a few years back. You had men like John McCain calling America a Christian country and its enshrined in the constitution when it says the opposite

It isn't enshrined in the constitution but it's as near as ("In God We Trust"). The reason it isn't enshrined in the constitution is because many of the emigrants arriving in the US, at the time, were fleeing religious persecution, by the Catholic church, the Protestant church or the Anglican church. Ulster folk included. It wasn't that the majority were opposed to the Christian faith playing a central part in the shaping of US politics. It was that they were opposed to those who would seek to deny them the right to practice their faith, whatever branch of the faith that may be.

You are correct, my point however is that the party have a history of following the crowd in an attempt to curry electoral favour with the populace.

That is true for all sides though, and will never change in a democracy. They don't follow the crowd as much as give lip service to them. Politicians are snake oil merchants, and Trump and Clinton are no different.

Not so true though in America, the Democrats never pulled to the left during the Anti Vietnam movement they tend to move right rather than left. While it was Democrats who pushed through the CRA it almost had to be explained to them on why it was wrong and it was a hugely unpopular thing at the time

Democratic leader; President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964:
 
"We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10,000 miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves."

They are all at it. All snake oil salesmen.

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Post by marty2086 on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 5:00 pm

The Anti war movement didn't strike up for another few years and the war started a few months after that with the Gulf of Tonkin

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 5:05 pm

marty2086 wrote:The Anti war movement didn't strike up for another few years and the war started a few months after that with the Gulf of Tonkin

It doesn't matter when it started. What matters is a Democrat President not keeping to his word. Then we have Bill Clinton flat out denying that he did have sex with Lewinsky. Added to that we have Hilary denying that she had classified information in her private email. I'm not attacking the Democratic Party. Just pointing out that politicians from whatever party can't always be trusted to speak honestly.

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Post by mid_gen on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 5:35 pm

Called it the day of the Brexit vote. French and German elections next year are going to see a similar lurch to the right.

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 5:39 pm

mid_gen wrote:Called it the day of the Brexit vote. French and German elections next year are going to see a similar lurch to the right.

I really hope not. That could actually be catastrophic.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 5:46 pm

Following politics is like doing research.  If you're interested in a subject, you just don't read one article and believe everything it says.  You find your keywords (dates, references, quotes, timelines etc) that seem to define the article/subject in question and go off and research those, in isolation - each one.  That next article or articles that might deal with the specific quotes for example, that then too throws up other keywords - and off you go again, checking out sources there.  Keep doing that until you come to a pretty good understanding of the subject you are researching - with all sides of the argument covered - the positive, the negative, the conflicts of truth, the 'still not conclusive' elements.

Politics is like that.  You take what the people say - politicians, journalists, historians, commentators, friends etc - and come to a opinion based on all those references including your own.  You simply don't believe the politician in isolation.  You simply don't believe the journalist in isolation.  They all tell versions of a pseudo-truth you are trying to get to.  You never get to the full truth but you're able to make a judgement of what you believe.  
Clinton gives better speeches than Trump.  Nobody knows if that oratorical ability grants her the natural talents to be a better President.  And I repeat, she did say that she doesn't always say what she really believes in public speeches.

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 6:09 pm

The one positive out of the Brexit and now US votes is that the mainstream Western media are no longer simply believed. The power of Google, perhaps.

Can't say the same for the Russians. They still greedily buy into their state sponsored propaganda. Well, those in the big cities anyway.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 6:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:The one positive out of the Brexit and now US votes is that the mainstream Western media are no longer simply believed. The power of Google, perhaps.

Can't say the same for the Russians. They still greedily buy into their state sponsored propaganda. Well, those in the big cities anyway.

Well, there is a RT studio in London, isn't there  - with British 'news'casters [including David Suchet's nephew and I think I detected an Irish voice too].  And then there is an American RT studio also.  And yet it's all lovely one-way traffic about the 'truth' in the West that Western media don't tell us.  And to a degree, they are right.  They do cover events that Western media cover (or don't cover) with a 'different' eye and it Can be sometimes illuminating to get that alternate view.  But the unsatisfactory bit is that they virtually Never cover Domestic politics in Russia - because it's virtually been obliterated.   That's the propaganda bit, the lack of any detail on Russian politics - pro and anti Putin opinion etc.

That British and American journalists would allow themselves to work under such censorship propaganda arrangements is much more unsettling than any state sponsored media presentations in Russia itself.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 6:31 pm

Munchkin wrote:The one positive out of the Brexit and now US votes is that the mainstream Western media are no longer simply believed. The power of Google, perhaps.

Can't say the same for the Russians. They still greedily buy into their state sponsored propaganda. Well, those in the big cities anyway.

I would hope so - but then you see what 90% of the newspapers seem to support in the UK (I can never understand why so many people buy the Daily Mail) And then in the US there is the well known comedy network called Fox news...

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 6:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The one positive out of the Brexit and now US votes is that the mainstream Western media are no longer simply believed. The power of Google, perhaps.

Can't say the same for the Russians. They still greedily buy into their state sponsored propaganda. Well, those in the big cities anyway.

Well, there is a RT studio in London, isn't there  - with British 'news'casters [including David Suchet's nephew and I think I detected an Irish voice too].  And then there is an American RT studio also.  And yet it's all lovely one-way traffic about the 'truth' in the West that Western media don't tell us.  And to a degree, they are right.  They do cover events that Western media cover (or don't cover) with a 'different' eye and it Can be sometimes illuminating to get that alternate view.  But the unsatisfactory bit is that they virtually Never cover Domestic politics in Russia - because it's virtually been obliterated.   That's the propaganda bit, the lack of any detail on Russian politics - pro and anti Putin opinion etc.

That British and American journalists would allow themselves to work under such censorship propaganda arrangements is much more unsettling than any state sponsored media presentations in Russia itself.

RT is a joke shop for political comedians playing to an audience of wilfully gullible 'momentum' comrades. We can all be treated to listening to George Galloway emptying himself from his cat litter provided by 'Sputnik'.

It's good to get a different view, but with the understanding that it's necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff. I know you do. I would say the same for all broadcasters, but some more than most. I would put RT and Al Jazeera in the more than most category, along with Fox news, of course. The BBC isn't all that far behind, unfortunately.

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 6:43 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The one positive out of the Brexit and now US votes is that the mainstream Western media are no longer simply believed. The power of Google, perhaps.

Can't say the same for the Russians. They still greedily buy into their state sponsored propaganda. Well, those in the big cities anyway.

I would hope so - but then you see what 90% of the newspapers seem to support in the UK (I can never understand why so many people buy the Daily Mail) And then in the US there is the well known comedy network called Fox news...

I know. It's crazy to think that people buy this rubbish, but then people love the gossip columns. The Daily Express is of less value than a comic now, but great for fiction Very Happy

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Post by Sin é on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 6:46 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
No actually his comment was

When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people

Nothing about illegals, it was all Mexican immigrants so it seems you aren't as clued in on it all as you like to claim

Marty I need to see the source fam, and hope that it contains the whole speech including any questions he may have been asked. I don't claim to be clued up at all, that wouldn't be possible given how I've tried to avoid it all - I just didn't see all of the hate stuff backed up yet it was spreading like flies (for over a year). It's also a bit strange to me that these people who believe they're tolerant openly back all of what's happened to Trump and the assaults on some of his supporters (which didn't make the news). Given the situation down across the boarder instigated by Obama it's clear why there's some animosity, but I do believe the argument was based against illegal immigration - for some reason you want those exact words in concrete writing. Why don't you take a minute to realise that you're probably not perfect and whilst you've done wrong, you've also done a lot of good. See the good in you, then see the good in Trump Wink.

It was a speech he gave - no questions. http://time.com/3923128/donald-trump-announcement-speech/

As for all the hate stuff - what about the 'Crocked Hilary' stuff. His operational method was (harking back to Hitler) - just keep repeating it often enough and people will think it is true.

His attitude to women is just shocking - apart from the sex stuff, the way he treated that Muslim woman who lost their son in Iraq saving other Americans was just shocking. The man's moral compass is very off.
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 6:57 pm

Sin é wrote:
His attitude to women is just shocking - apart from the sex stuff, the way he treated that Muslim woman who lost their son in Iraq saving other Americans was just shocking. The man's moral compass is very off.

Ah but sure won't he help the UK make a better success of their Brexit.  He'll row in behind and give May a stronger spine to work with against the Loony Toon Brigade in Brussels.  And sure won't that help the other non-conformists/non-loyalist/non-obedient National politicians throughout Europe sell EUxits to their populations too.  Wink  I know you'll be happy with those developments, sin; and sure don't I know it's why the EU fans fear Trump more than Putin. Cool

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Post by Sin é on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 7:01 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
His attitude to women is just shocking - apart from the sex stuff, the way he treated that Muslim woman who lost their son in Iraq saving other Americans was just shocking. The man's moral compass is very off.

Ah but sure won't he help the UK make a better success of their Brexit.  He'll row in behind and give May a stronger spine to work with against the Loony Toon Brigade in Brussels.  And sure won't that help the other non-conformists/non-loyalist/non-obedient National politicians throughout Europe sell EUxits to their populations too.  Wink  I know you'll be happy with those developments, sin; and sure don't I know it's why the EU fans fear Trump more than Putin. Cool

You must be delighted Fly, like TheDonald, you hate globalisation.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 7:12 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
His attitude to women is just shocking - apart from the sex stuff, the way he treated that Muslim woman who lost their son in Iraq saving other Americans was just shocking. The man's moral compass is very off.

Ah but sure won't he help the UK make a better success of their Brexit.  He'll row in behind and give May a stronger spine to work with against the Loony Toon Brigade in Brussels.  And sure won't that help the other non-conformists/non-loyalist/non-obedient National politicians throughout Europe sell EUxits to their populations too.  Wink  I know you'll be happy with those developments, sin; and sure don't I know it's why the EU fans fear Trump more than Putin. Cool

You must be delighted Fly, like TheDonald, you hate globalisation.


I find that it comes with a lot of dilution of National Sovereignty, Sin. You know, the 1916 bit?
So, yeah, I wouldn't be a fan of Chinese electric fires being sold to people here who were kicked out of work in Ireland having brought over their expertise in the advanced electric heating/fire department to China in the first place.  Yeah, I know people on the scrap heap now who actually practically helped China set up products that would lose those Irish people their jobs.

But it's Europe, ain't it.  We like to keep everyone happy but the Greeks Wink

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 7:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
His attitude to women is just shocking - apart from the sex stuff, the way he treated that Muslim woman who lost their son in Iraq saving other Americans was just shocking. The man's moral compass is very off.

Ah but sure won't he help the UK make a better success of their Brexit.  He'll row in behind and give May a stronger spine to work with against the Loony Toon Brigade in Brussels.  And sure won't that help the other non-conformists/non-loyalist/non-obedient National politicians throughout Europe sell EUxits to their populations too.  Wink  I know you'll be happy with those developments, sin; and sure don't I know it's why the EU fans fear Trump more than Putin. Cool

That might just be true. Very interesting to see what influence Trump can impose on the tough talking Euro Elite. The ones who say they want to make the UK pay, but probably just soundbites for their upcoming elections.

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Post by wolfball on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 8:15 pm

So, an incredulity thread became a thread where some people support Trump. Wild.

My girlfriend is US born to ecuadorian parents (who are both legal residents). She is with me here in mexico right now (you can imagine how mexicans are reacting). In 2 years together this morning is the second time I saw her cry. In her words, all the Poopie everyone went through to get to where they were, to feel like if you work hard you can get ahead in america no matter your skin colour. Well she feels a big dent has been put in that. Its hard to say she is wrong if you go off what Trump has said and the interviews of trump supporters who love how he is "taking the country back". Taking it back from?

A reaction to PC? What does that even mean? Some poor lambs can;t use the N word anymore. or spank the arse of their secretary and instead of manning up that we all have rights, they go and vote in someone who has stated policies which put millions of LEGAL americans at risk of having their lives torn apart? How... courageous of those standing up to PC. Children.

I read somewhere else this morning that (translating it into rugby terms), if you are a white man in america all you see is that blacks and latinos have scored 5 straight tries in your lifetime. And that seems Poopie. They get everything! But its harder to see that you were winning 64-0 in the first half. That is what we are seeing. That combined with an american system where it is not 1 vote each for president. Where the electoral college means that a person residing in a city has a 0.999999 vote. And someone in rural areas gets 1.0000001 of a vote. That's the margin. Clinton had more total votes and loses the election. Anyways, will stick to rugby on here from now on, but had to throw that out there.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 8:33 pm

wolfball wrote:So, an incredulity thread became a thread where some people support Trump. Wild.

I guess that might be pretty close to a definition of that PC thing you don't like mentioned but still unfortunately exists in the minds of people who think it 'wild' that someone might support the idea of Trump as President on 606V2.

Everyone has a pretty tight view on this according to their views on American domestic or International policies - and some people don't even think about walls on the Mexican Border when they contemplate letting the weird guy with the orange face and the brash attitude with direct opinions have a go.  After all, the Black liberal hasn't had a very good run at it, has he?  Let America try a truly unorthodox guy and see what happens.  If he fails, he'll have mimicked a few before him.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 9:09 pm

wolfball wrote:So, an incredulity thread became a thread where some people support Trump. Wild.

My girlfriend is US born to ecuadorian parents (who are both legal residents). She is with me here in mexico right now (you can imagine how mexicans are reacting). In 2 years together this morning is the second time I saw her cry. ....

Shhh, if you listen carefully you can hear the rest of the world crying with her today.

Time is a healer but this one's gonna take 4 years to get over.
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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 9:19 pm

And I'm sure the tears are still flowing in Libya, and of course for those American Embassy worker who were slaughtered.

Is Hilary crying?



It's almost like she's laughing ....

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Post by whocares on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 9:30 pm

mid_gen wrote:Called it the day of the Brexit vote. French and German elections next year are going to see a similar lurch to the right.

Not familiar with how German election works, but with 2 rounds in France there is no way a far right / Populist candidate would get through if that's what you are thinking of.people show their discontent at the 1st round but go for the establishment candidate at the second round. Extremists need to work a bit more on their marketing tools to make their parties look more mainstream so way a bit too early for that.
The beauty of the American system is that some kind of random lunatic who never had any Political mandate managed to hijack a whole party ! (And there is only two). This is probably what appealed to American people who a aint got much to lose and went on rejecting the existing establishment. In practice Trump will probably seek the standard republican policies such as less taxes and less welfare etc

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Post by Notch on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 9:38 pm

I have to say, I don't agree that this thread is appropriate... there's a darkness to the world right now and I wish this forum was an escape, the way that wonderful game in Chicago was an escape. I have family in the USA, my nephew was born there and I have many American friends. It's not just despair they feel, its fear.

I think he's a dangerous, black-hearted man and the message sent out to the world is a message of hate being rewarded. I feel like he's a symptom, not a cause, of an underlying brokenness in our society that will not be fixed until it works itself through. But these figures, history shows, can inflict a lot of human misery and suffering on the world. I hope he is contained at every turn to limit the damage he'll do.

It's a sad day.


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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 9:38 pm

I'm incredulous at all the incredulousness.
No not really and my incredulity meter broke in the 90s
Anyway, I guess Guantanamo won't be closing any time soon.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 9:40 pm

Munchkin wrote:And I'm sure the tears are still flowing in Libya, and of course for those American Embassy worker who were slaughtered.

Is Hilary crying?



It's almost like she's laughing ....

She also sat in on an alleged snuff movie of Bin Laden and some of his family being killed - but then, that's what she wants the young women of America to aspire to..... tears, tenderness, tissues, tanks, turrets and texts. Whistle

I have absolutely nothing against her though.  She's a tough cookie, a tough politician - and she plays the game when making cosy feminist speeches and then when behind the scenes as a politician well prepared to accept the collateral human damage of war (women and children included).  She's married to a man I have a high regard for, a man my country has plenty to be thankful for.  He will always be a big figure in my memories as Ireland tried to struggle to peace.

But she wasn't the right person at the right time for me.

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Post by wayne on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 10:00 pm

Notch wrote:I have to say, I don't agree that this thread is appropriate... there's a darkness to the world right now and I wish this forum was an escape, the way that wonderful game in Chicago was an escape. I have family in the USA, my nephew was born there and I have many American friends. It's not just despair they feel, its fear.

I think he's a dangerous, black-hearted man and the message sent out to the world is a message of hate being rewarded. I feel like he's a symptom, not a cause, of an underlying brokenness in our society that will not be fixed until it works itself through. But these figures, history shows, can inflict a lot of human misery and suffering on the world. I hope he is contained at every turn to limit the damage he'll do.

It's a sad day.

I totally endorse and agree with this

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 10:10 pm

Not sure why a discussion on a political election should be inappropriate?  Yep, possibly inappropriate to the rugby section but that's only semantics, as changing pages and topics here is simply the press of a key or mousepad button. In reality it doesn't matter where threads are on the site, people choose to look in at the ones that interest them.
Why, though, should the discussion about a man being elected to President of the USA be inappropriate or a designated 'sad day'?

It's sad for some.  It's hope for others. Some are happy.  Every election has a winner and a loser.  Had Clinton won would we be hearing sighs of it being a sad day?

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 10:27 pm

wayne wrote:
Notch wrote:I have to say, I don't agree that this thread is appropriate... there's a darkness to the world right now and I wish this forum was an escape, the way that wonderful game in Chicago was an escape. I have family in the USA, my nephew was born there and I have many American friends. It's not just despair they feel, its fear.

I think he's a dangerous, black-hearted man and the message sent out to the world is a message of hate being rewarded. I feel like he's a symptom, not a cause, of an underlying brokenness in our society that will not be fixed until it works itself through. But these figures, history shows, can inflict a lot of human misery and suffering on the world. I hope he is contained at every turn to limit the damage he'll do.

It's a sad day.

I totally endorse and agree with this

+1000
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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 10:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:And I'm sure the tears are still flowing in Libya, and of course for those American Embassy worker who were slaughtered.

Is Hilary crying?



It's almost like she's laughing ....

She also sat in on an alleged snuff movie of Bin Laden and some of his family being killed - but then, that's what she wants the young women of America to aspire to..... tears, tenderness, tissues, tanks, turrets and texts.  Whistle

I have absolutely nothing against her though.  She's a tough cookie, a tough politician - and she plays the game when making cosy feminist speeches and then when behind the scenes as a politician well prepared to accept the collateral human damage of war (women and children included).  She's married to a man I have a high regard for, a man my country has plenty to be thankful for.  He will always be a big figure in my memories as Ireland tried to struggle to peace.

But she wasn't the right person at the right time for me.

Oh, she's tough as an old boot, she's hugely experienced, she is intelligent and she can play the diplomat. That's why I would have much preferred her as President than Trump. He really gives me the creeps.

The reason I posted the video was to show that Clinton isn't without her faults. She's hawkish, and probably would have persisted in a failed foreign policy.

What really angers me about Libya is that it was another Western power intervention that has resulted in the needless suffering of many thousands. They cause the chaos then abandon the suffering innocent. Libya wasn't a threat, Syria was, and is. Yet they failed to take action against the murdering, near genocidal, maniac, Assad. Because they are afraid of upsetting Iran/Russia. So it doesn't matter that the innocent are being raped, tortured, poisoned, murdered. So long as they don't upset the neighbours.

I'm not convinced Trump is going to do much better in the ME. Could be much worse.

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:03 pm

One thing I hope Trump is true to his word on - Block Irans nuclear program.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:14 pm

Munchkin wrote:

not convinced Trump is going to do much better in the ME. Could be much worse.

Couldn't be much worse.

It hasn't exactly been Paradise these last number of years. As I keep saying, Trump had no part in the present Biblical migrations of misplaced peoples or the continuing vicious wars backed and funded by an American President who supposedly represented a new more tolerant age of peace harmony and brotherly love. Eight years and it's taken Russia to enter the theatre before America finally gets serious about pushing Isis into oblivion. Why did it take so many tortuous deaths? Trump had no part in that mess... but Hillary had a part in the mess.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:19 pm

Israel happy I guess. Don't hear much nowadays.

"Three peace protesters have occupied the keep at Cardiff Castle in a demonstration over the 'occupation of land in Palestine'."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/6151698.stm

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

not convinced Trump is going to do much better in the ME. Could be much worse.

Couldn't be much worse.  

It hasn't exactly been Paradise these last number of years.  As I keep saying, Trump had no part in the present Biblical migrations of misplaced peoples or the continuing vicious wars backed and funded by an American President who supposedly represented a new more tolerant age of peace harmony and brotherly love.  Eight years and it's taken Russia to enter the theatre before America finally gets serious about pushing Isis into oblivion.  Why did it take so many tortuous deaths?  Trump had no part in that mess... but Hillary had a part in the mess.

True, he had no part in the current horror that is being witnessed in the ME, but that isn't evidence that his administration would have had a more successful foreign policy (think Bush administration). He did say that he could destroy ISIS in 100 days. Maybe he could, but it's how he would go about doing that which gives me concern. He isn't a politician and lacks experience, and the impression I formed after listening to his rhetoric was of a bull in a china shop.
Things could be worse in the ME, even though that may seem near impossible right now.

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:32 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:Israel happy I guess. Don't hear much nowadays.

"Three peace protesters have occupied the keep at Cardiff Castle in a demonstration over the 'occupation of land in Palestine'."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/6151698.stm

The police should just ignore them. Won't be long before they miss their warm beds.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:36 pm

Things could be worse with Hillary. She has experience of signing off (or at least nodding approval) on worse. This 'experience' thing is just something I don't remotely buy, Munch. Turkish President has oodles of experience. Lots of idiots had lots of experience in politics over the centuries - didn't make a lot of them much smarter in their judgements.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:43 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:Israel happy I guess. Don't hear much nowadays.

"Three peace protesters have occupied the keep at Cardiff Castle in a demonstration over the 'occupation of land in Palestine'."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/6151698.stm

The police should just ignore them. Won't be long before they miss their warm beds.

It was 10 years ago.
If it happened now they'd be spotted from on high no doubt and be droned to death.

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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:Things could be worse with Hillary.  She has experience of signing off (or at least nodding approval) on worse.  This 'experience' thing is just something I don't remotely buy, Munch.  Turkish President has oodles of experience.  Lots of idiots had lots of experience in politics over the centuries - didn't make a lot of them much smarter in their judgements.
 

I'm really talking about experience in ME affairs, and the level understanding required to fully appreciate the complexity of ME issues. Not least the diplomatic skills necessary to promote peace in a region that is never far from igniting.

Things could be worse with Hilary, but at least Hilary is equipped with the right tools for the job. I'm not writing off Trumps chances either. It's just that I trust him less. His election campaign has done nothing to reassure me.

Whatever about Erdogan, nobody can accuse him of being diplomatic.


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Post by Guest on Wed 09 Nov 2016, 11:49 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:Israel happy I guess. Don't hear much nowadays.

"Three peace protesters have occupied the keep at Cardiff Castle in a demonstration over the 'occupation of land in Palestine'."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/6151698.stm

The police should just ignore them. Won't be long before they miss their warm beds.

It was 10 years ago.
If it happened now they'd be spotted from on high no doubt and be droned to death.

Laugh Drones can be useful things. I want one for Christmas The Donald Trump Incredulity Thread - Page 3 3845856932

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:01 am

Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Things could be worse with Hillary.  She has experience of signing off (or at least nodding approval) on worse.  This 'experience' thing is just something I don't remotely buy, Munch.  Turkish President has oodles of experience.  Lots of idiots had lots of experience in politics over the centuries - didn't make a lot of them much smarter in their judgements.
 

I'm really talking about experience in ME affairs, and the level understanding required to fully appreciate the complexity of ME issues. Not least the diplomatic skills necessary to promote peace in a region that is never far from igniting.

Things could be worse with Hilary, but at least Hilary is equipped with the right tools for the job. I'm not writing off Trumps chances either. It's just that I trust him less. His election campaign has done nothing to reassure me.

Whatever about Erdogan, nobody can accuse him of being diplomatic.

Oil and tons of cash in other words.

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Post by Guest on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:02 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Things could be worse with Hillary.  She has experience of signing off (or at least nodding approval) on worse.  This 'experience' thing is just something I don't remotely buy, Munch.  Turkish President has oodles of experience.  Lots of idiots had lots of experience in politics over the centuries - didn't make a lot of them much smarter in their judgements.
 

I'm really talking about experience in ME affairs, and the level understanding required to fully appreciate the complexity of ME issues. Not least the diplomatic skills necessary to promote peace in a region that is never far from igniting.

Things could be worse with Hilary, but at least Hilary is equipped with the right tools for the job. I'm not writing off Trumps chances either. It's just that I trust him less. His election campaign has done nothing to reassure me.

Whatever about Erdogan, nobody can accuse him of being diplomatic.

Oil and tons of cash in other words.

You're not wrong, although it's more about how to extract that and still look like the good guy.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:20 am

Munchkin wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Things could be worse with Hillary.  She has experience of signing off (or at least nodding approval) on worse.  This 'experience' thing is just something I don't remotely buy, Munch.  Turkish President has oodles of experience.  Lots of idiots had lots of experience in politics over the centuries - didn't make a lot of them much smarter in their judgements.
 

I'm really talking about experience in ME affairs, and the level understanding required to fully appreciate the complexity of ME issues. Not least the diplomatic skills necessary to promote peace in a region that is never far from igniting.

Things could be worse with Hilary, but at least Hilary is equipped with the right tools for the job. I'm not writing off Trumps chances either. It's just that I trust him less. His election campaign has done nothing to reassure me.

Whatever about Erdogan, nobody can accuse him of being diplomatic.

Oil and tons of cash in other words.

You're not wrong, although it's more about how to extract that and still look like the good guy.

Mission accomplished. Just imagine Trump's hair on a windy aircraft carrier?

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:22 am

BBC basterdes using my Donald Brexit Trump Card allusion without even paying me royalties! There's nothing sacred no more....even copyright!

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:24 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Mission accomplished. Just imagine Trump's hair on a windy aircraft carrier?

Will he really employ his hair as Defence Secretary? Surely nepotism, no? It can't have enough experience.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:29 am

SecretFly wrote:Things could be worse with Hillary.  She has experience of signing off (or at least nodding approval) on worse.  This 'experience' thing is just something I don't remotely buy, Munch.  Turkish President has oodles of experience.  Lots of idiots had lots of experience in politics over the centuries - didn't make a lot of them much smarter in their judgements.
 

Well, Netanyahu has already been onto Trump about abolishing Palestine as its a security risk. Very Happy Things could kick off fairly quickly in the ME.
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