The Donald Trump Incredulity Thread

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Post by George Carlin on Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

I know that this doesn't relate to rugby, but feel free to say what you want about the 45th (and presumably final) president of the United States.

A man John Oliver once described as "a large clown made of dessicated foreskin and cotton candy".
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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:34 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

Blacks were being shot dead by white police officers before Trump entered the scene.  Don't set up Trump to be answerable for what he didn't create.  Don't try that.  This isn't Year One for American racism or homophobia.
But virtually He alone highlighted the divisions - those real divisions.  Clinton ran a campaign pretending that everything was ok - America is the best place in the world, 'let's all get along and be together in wonderful Americanness'.  
Fine empty speech making that wasn't honest and doesn't solve anything.  
As one political commentator on the night said (CNN), the American people have been hearing from different Presidents of different colours with very different world views that things were going to be better.  20 years they'd been hearing about it and never seeing any real efforts to attack the divisions - 'cause I suppose the International dimension is always prioritised both in terms of efforts and funding.
Trump at least addressed the Truth that NO, America is not neat and united and getting along all together in rainbow love.  He said that was a crap fluffy lie and that serious work is needed to really attack the divisions in America.  And in doing that telling, he stepped on the toes of the sensitive who want to dream that the current chaos - which leads on to white cops killing black men in the street - is not really the reality at all, and that together in some sort of big national hug of love they can solve all issues.
The real world laughs at such naivety.  America will only find some sort of relief in again looking seriously in a legal and funding and economic sense at Itself and pushing the International Dimension - the world Leader dimension - to the fringes.  America thinking of itself.

Trump might be another false dawn but at least he didn't bullschidt the American people with shallow 'love one another' speeches.  They don't work.

I didn't say Trump created all these problems. I said that he has made it normal for to mock and attack the most vulnerable in society.

Its pretty obvious that the US is racially divided (I don't know if you are old enough to recall the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King). Most people thought it was momentous that a black man was elected US President. A woman seems to be a step too far yet.

The US has a very low unemployment rate (less than 5%) don't most people hold down two or 3 jobs to make ends meet and when all the illegals are deported they probably will have to hold down 4 or 5 jobs to keep the economy going.

I'm not going to base my vote on the genitals of an executive candidate. That would be moronic beyond belief.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:39 am

wolfball wrote:Some great comments being made- to summarise a few thoughts I had as I read through them:

1) The incomes of all global economic groups have increased for the last 20 years with one massive exception - the middle class of developed democracies.
2) This will get worse. As not only will middle class incomes continue to stagnate, working/poor incomes will also stagnate decline as greater tech/automation and slow moving government combine to create an ever larger group of people who are left behind.
3) That group will lash out. As is fully understandable. But will they lash out at corporations who off shore jobs/implement automation, or political parties who block new ways of helping the working class with reeducation or a UBI? Or will they lash out at those who are always lashed out at? The other. The people who don't look, talk or think like them? The latter is apparent.
4) Certain people will take advantage of this situation. Trump. Le Pen. UKIP. There will be more.
5) With all that being said, I have little doubt that Trump is a uniquely dangerous president as he is against those parts of the system which would reign in his power.. If he acts a generic republican president (ala Bush) I disagree with his policies but I am not frightened of them. The issue is he is genuinely unstable - there is the fear. I will be delighted to be wrong on that.
5) The left cried wolf on a series of right wing politicians and so the fears on Trump seem like the typical hand wringing. This was a mistake. Trump is not Romney.
6) On maoiw's excellent long post RE mirrors etc. You didn't directly mention it, but you seemed to be invoking the veil of ignorance? Just to clarify, the veil of ignorance is the idea that you imagine creating a new society but when designing rules for your society, you are ignorant of what social position you yourself will occupy. You could turn out to be a white male farmer in Idaho or an indian cobbler in Kerala or a russian lesbian. With that starting point, how would you build the society? The idea of the thought experiment is to recognise that when some other have seeming advantages, systemic or otherwise, what we all should want is a world that enables all people to flourish. That is a mirror I will happily look at.
7) Dishwashing machines will free women from Trump's sink chaining. (see point 2 Re: automation Wink )

Could you provide evidence for the first few points that working class groups (emphasis on working) in the UK have financially benefitted in the last 20 years?

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:40 am

The thing that annoys me is that I get the bum deal on any "I told you so"s!

If I turn out wrong about Trump, well................... the world will burn and we'll all be ashes by the 6th of June 2019.
But if I turn out right, all I'll get to whimper to a few uninterested souls here is:  "well, I told you so."

That don't seem right.  Why can't something Armageddon-like happen if I get to be right?

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Post by Guest on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:16 am

Trumps plan for THE WALL:



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Post by SecretFly on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:21 am

Laugh That has me in tears.
And me after complaining about the hankie brigade too. It don't look good on my resume.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:28 am

And the Darth Trump one just after is dangerous for the health!


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Post by Guest on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:46 am

SecretFly wrote:And the Darth Trump one just after is dangerous for the health!


It's brilliant. Some cracking lines, but wont give spoilers. Darth is a needy dark lord Very Happy

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Post by Sin é on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:14 am

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Its pretty obvious that the US is racially divided (I don't know if you are old enough to recall the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King). Most people thought it was momentous that a black man was elected US President. A woman seems to be a step too far yet.

The US has a very low unemployment rate (less than 5%) don't most people hold down two or 3 jobs to make ends meet and when all the illegals are deported they probably will have to hold down 4 or 5 jobs to keep the economy going.

It wasn't obvious to Hillary as she sidestepped it every time she could.  And I guess the people who knew it was divided (most people in the world) knew she was bluffing when she did the aspiration evasion stuff about wanting to unite not divide.  First you gotta admit the divisions.

On the idea that people didn't vote for her because she was a woman.  Don't buy it.  It was because Trump was Trump and Clinton was Clinton.  It was the personalities that either engaged or didn't and that had nothing to do with gender.  Beside, that would be another continuing point of mine - the platitudinous vacuousness  of having a campaign at such a time in the world and in America that asked people to vote for another token President.  "Forget the policies if'n you don't like'em, forget that you even dislike her - still vote for her 'cause like she's gonna be the first woman President and you'll get a chance to tell your kids you did it and you were there to see it."

Yeah *yawn* - is that it?  We just did the first Black man President - isn't it a little early for another historic token?


Someone on this thread was complaining earlier that Hilary supported that racist organisation, BLM - so which is it?

In fairness to Hilary, she won the popular vote in this election. I think its strange that the US is the only major country in the world who has never had a female leader/head of state - some of the major countries in the world have all had one like India, UK, Germany, Israel. It seems strange that the US hasn't produced one.
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Post by Sin é on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:17 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

Blacks were being shot dead by white police officers before Trump entered the scene.  Don't set up Trump to be answerable for what he didn't create.  Don't try that.  This isn't Year One for American racism or homophobia.
But virtually He alone highlighted the divisions - those real divisions.  Clinton ran a campaign pretending that everything was ok - America is the best place in the world, 'let's all get along and be together in wonderful Americanness'.  
Fine empty speech making that wasn't honest and doesn't solve anything.  
As one political commentator on the night said (CNN), the American people have been hearing from different Presidents of different colours with very different world views that things were going to be better.  20 years they'd been hearing about it and never seeing any real efforts to attack the divisions - 'cause I suppose the International dimension is always prioritised both in terms of efforts and funding.
Trump at least addressed the Truth that NO, America is not neat and united and getting along all together in rainbow love.  He said that was a crap fluffy lie and that serious work is needed to really attack the divisions in America.  And in doing that telling, he stepped on the toes of the sensitive who want to dream that the current chaos - which leads on to white cops killing black men in the street - is not really the reality at all, and that together in some sort of big national hug of love they can solve all issues.
The real world laughs at such naivety.  America will only find some sort of relief in again looking seriously in a legal and funding and economic sense at Itself and pushing the International Dimension - the world Leader dimension - to the fringes.  America thinking of itself.

Trump might be another false dawn but at least he didn't bullschidt the American people with shallow 'love one another' speeches.  They don't work.

I didn't say Trump created all these problems. I said that he has made it normal for to mock and attack the most vulnerable in society.

Its pretty obvious that the US is racially divided (I don't know if you are old enough to recall the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King). Most people thought it was momentous that a black man was elected US President. A woman seems to be a step too far yet.

The US has a very low unemployment rate (less than 5%) don't most people hold down two or 3 jobs to make ends meet and when all the illegals are deported they probably will have to hold down 4 or 5 jobs to keep the economy going.

I'm not going to base my vote on the genitals of an executive candidate. That would be moronic beyond belief.

I find it extraordinary that a liberal country the size of the US has never had a female leader. Crickey even the DUP dinasours of NI have gotten around to having a female leader.


Last edited by Sin é on Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by SecretFly on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:35 am

Sin é wrote:

Someone on this thread was complaining earlier that Hilary supported that racist organisation, BLM - so which is it?

In fairness to Hilary, she won the popular vote in this election. I think its strange that the US is the only major country in the world who has never had a female leader/head of state - some of the major countries in the world have all had one like India, UK, Germany, Israel. It seems strange that the US hasn't produced one.

America's been too busy to vote for women. They've been more interested in voting for lunatics.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:38 am

Now go to bed, sin and stop worrying about women. Trump said he's going to wait until his next term to force them off the road. So more road rage is going to be getting worse under his leadership ... but at least women still get to drive for four more years. Which is a compromise on his earlier hard-line stance. So, he can tone things down when he wants.

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Post by Sin é on Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:36 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe

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Post by Gwlad on Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:54 pm

America might be ready for a woman (though i doubt it) but not a Clinton. This is not a failure of a gender as she has spun it, but of one woman with baggage who is perceived in the US as elitist and, more significantly, as deceitful.

At least with Trump you know what you've got, a temperamentally unsound misogynist racist bigot. With Clinton you don't know what you're getting other than that it smacks of privilege and that difference appeals to straight talking Americans.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:26 pm

Gwlad wrote:America might be ready for a woman (though i doubt it) but not a Clinton. This is not a failure of a gender as she has spun it, but of one woman with baggage who is perceived in the US as elitist and, more significantly, as deceitful.

At least with Trump you know what you've got, a temperamentally unsound misogynist racist bigot. With Clinton you don't know what you're getting other than that it smacks of privilege and that difference appeals to straight talking Americans.

Not at all saying you are wrong, but isn't it utterly bizarre that in this situation the person who 'smacks of privilege' is up against a guy who owes everything to the billions he inherited from his father

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Post by carpet baboon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:40 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Gwlad wrote:America might be ready for a woman (though i doubt it) but not a Clinton. This is not a failure of a gender as she has spun it, but of one woman with baggage who is perceived in the US as elitist and, more significantly, as deceitful.

At least with Trump you know what you've got, a temperamentally unsound misogynist racist bigot. With Clinton you don't know what you're getting other than that it smacks of privilege and that difference appeals to straight talking Americans.

Not at all saying you are wrong, but isn't it utterly bizarre that in this situation the person who 'smacks of privilege'  is up against a guy who owes everything to the billions he inherited from his father

It's painfully amusing.
Apparently Paris Hilton has made more from her inherited wealth (belive she has tripled it) than Donald trump has with his. In a quarter of the time as well. So much for his great business mind.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:59 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:33 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

I mention gays because they are a likely target as well, now that the Donald has taken the lid off like (like the way racist attacks have increased in the UK since Brexit).

Gays have been attacked in America... Orlando, but that wasn't by a white christian man, so doesn't count...

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Post by Sin é on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:41 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

I'd say you could give the bloke a little leeway on being a bigot. He had just got beaten up by Trump supporters for being gay while they were celebrating Trump's election.

Trump might not be a homophobe himself, but he seems to have licensed the worst kind of people to say and do what they think.

These are the kind of people who would think they were doing everyone a favour if they did the same thing. And for the record, the Orlando terrorist Mateen was born in New York, so no borders were going to keep him out.
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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:44 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

Wrong, his religion was exact reason he did what he did. The punishment for homosexuality in the Koran is death. The view is normal in the muslim world.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:48 pm

I only know 2 Muslims granted but neither take the view that homosexuals need to be killed.

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Post by carpet baboon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:53 pm

the-goon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

Wrong, his religion was exact reason he did what he did. The punishment for homosexuality in the Koran is death. The view is normal in the muslim world.

Mate the Bible says that too. In fact the Bible and the koran have lots in common.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:56 pm

the-goon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

Wrong, his religion was exact reason he did what he did. The punishment for homosexuality in the Koran is death. The view is normal in the muslim world.

He was a conflicted and f'ed up individual who had been a regular at the club in the past. The religion thing was an excuse (and certainly didn't help the internal conflict) but its not the cause.

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Post by rapidsnowman on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:03 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Mate the Bible says that too. In fact the Bible and the koran have lots in common.

Bible, Old and New testaments view homosexuality as a sin. Nowhere in New Testament does it advocate killing anyone for it or any other sin.

Bible and the koran have lots in common - Not really actually.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:05 pm

Both talk of sky fairies?

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Post by carpet baboon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:09 pm

rapidsnowman wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Mate the Bible says that too. In fact the Bible and the koran have lots in common.

Bible, Old and New testaments view homosexuality as a sin. Nowhere in New Testament does it advocate killing anyone for it or any other sin.

Bible and the koran have lots in common - Not really actually.

Have people been killed in the name of Christianity? As people have interpreted the book how they chose to and believe they were doing god's will?

So actually they do.

People will use any religion to commit atrocious acts. So yes the books are very similar

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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:25 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Mate the Bible says that too. In fact the Bible and the koran have lots in common.

Bible, Old and New testaments view homosexuality as a sin. Nowhere in New Testament does it advocate killing anyone for it or any other sin.

Bible and the koran have lots in common - Not really actually.

Have people been killed in the name of Christianity? As people have interpreted the book how they chose to and believe they were doing god's will?

So actually they do.

People will use any religion to commit atrocious acts. So yes the books are very similar


People will commit atrocious acts because of religion is more accurate.

If you think the Bible and Koran are in anyway similar bar the fact they are religious scripture then you haven't a clue.

Mateen was a muslim and likely gay. What led him to be messed up was that can't be both a "good" muslim and gay (or at least have gay sex). According to his faith he had sinned, so he atoned for those sins by pledging allegiance to the caliphate and killed infidels and sinners. The man said so himself on the phone to 911.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:27 pm

Do you dislike Muslims goon? What about Christians?

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Post by carpet baboon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:30 pm

the-goon wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Mate the Bible says that too. In fact the Bible and the koran have lots in common.

Bible, Old and New testaments view homosexuality as a sin. Nowhere in New Testament does it advocate killing anyone for it or any other sin.

Bible and the koran have lots in common - Not really actually.

Have people been killed in the name of Christianity? As people have interpreted the book how they chose to and believe they were doing god's will?

So actually they do.

People will use any religion to commit atrocious acts. So yes the books are very similar


People will commit atrocious acts because of religion is more accurate.

If you think the Bible and Koran are in anyway similar bar the fact they are religious scripture then you haven't a clue.

Mateen was a muslim and likely gay. What led him to be messed up was that can't be both a "good" muslim and gay (or at least have gay sex). According to his faith he had sinned, so he atoned for those sins by pledging allegiance to the caliphate and killed infidels and sinners. The man said so himself on the phone to 911.

Actually I grew up in a catholic household and out of interest I have read the koran, and other religious texts as well. So I do have a clue thanks.

I'm sorry I don't agree with you. Your entitled to your opinion as I am of mine.


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Post by Pete330v2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:37 pm

Religion is easily the most divisive element of society on the planet. That being said if religion didn't exist we'd find something else to divide us, the human default setting seems to be belligerent . Perhaps religion therefore is the lesser of many unknown evils but evil is most certainly is, all of it.

Trump is fairly liberally minded compared to the main religions, a beautiful, mild mannered paragon of virtue no less Smile

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Post by rapidsnowman on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:37 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Have people been killed in the name of Christianity? As people have interpreted the book how they chose to and believe they were doing god's will?

So actually they do.

People will use any religion to commit atrocious acts. So yes the books are very similar

People doing killing in the name of Christianity doesn't mean it says to do that in the Bible. They are in serious error if they believe the Bible teaches Christians should kill.

Bible teaches Christians should love their enemies and bless those who persecute them. I can give chapter and verse if required.

It is very different from the Koran.




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Post by SecretFly on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:38 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Gwlad wrote:America might be ready for a woman (though i doubt it) but not a Clinton. This is not a failure of a gender as she has spun it, but of one woman with baggage who is perceived in the US as elitist and, more significantly, as deceitful.

At least with Trump you know what you've got, a temperamentally unsound misogynist racist bigot. With Clinton you don't know what you're getting other than that it smacks of privilege and that difference appeals to straight talking Americans.

Not at all saying you are wrong, but isn't it utterly bizarre that in this situation the person who 'smacks of privilege'  is up against a guy who owes everything to the billions he inherited from his father

It's painfully amusing.
Apparently Paris Hilton has made more from her inherited wealth (belive she has tripled it) than Donald trump has with his. In a quarter of the time as well. So much for his great business mind.

Well she took the time to film her sexcapades, didn't she. So she was a few steps ahead of Trump who only had big and cumbersome handheld videocams when he started out.

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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you dislike Muslims goon? What about Christians?

I judge people on their individual merits.

What have said that is untrue?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:50 pm

Straight forward question which you didn't answer there goon; do you dislike Muslims? Do you dislike Christians?

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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you dislike Muslims goon? What about Christians?

This question is classic SJW. Project criticisms of an ideology onto people who follow it. Please try harder.

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Post by carpet baboon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:53 pm

Just to clarify a few things on my opinion on religion
If you read any of the religious books in there original form 95% of them are pretty similar in that they teach about living a good life and ultimately being nice to each other.
Over the years many rewrites and re interpretation have been made that have given greater emphasis to some parts, and this is clearly shown in the multitude of different branches of the said religions. This has happened in pretty much every religion.
Now that leads to the whole my religion is right yours is wrong yours says this but mine says that cowpat we are now going through.

To claim the koran promotes violence and the Bible dosent is in my very humble opinion stupid. Just as it would be to claim the other way round.

The thing is all religions are good upuntil people get involved and choose to use it for there own ends.

Religion gives people hope in times of despair. People use religion to Dish out cruelty.
Religion is fine. It's we the people who are the failure , not some book.

So yes the koran the Bible the tankha all pretty similar. It's us who choose to make them different.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:55 pm

Yes, yes projection etc. But still simple questions which you haven't answered.

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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:56 pm

I did answer it, I judge individuals by the content of their character and their actions.

I won't dislike anybody until they give me a reason to do so.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:58 pm

You skirted it; but to confirm you would hold no ill feelings to a Muslim because they are a Muslim. Similar to if they were a Christian. They are both the same. Good to know.

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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:03 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Just to clarify a few things on my opinion on religion
If you read any of the religious books in there original form 95% of them are pretty similar in that they teach about living a good life and ultimately being nice to each other.
Over the years many rewrites and re interpretation have been made that have given greater emphasis to some parts, and this is clearly shown in the multitude of different branches of the said religions.  This has happened in pretty much every religion.
Now that leads to the whole my religion is right yours is wrong  yours says this but mine says that cowpat we are now going through.

To claim the koran promotes violence and the Bible dosent is in my very humble opinion stupid. Just as it would be to claim the other way round.

The thing is all religions are good upuntil people get involved and choose to use it for there own ends.

Religion gives people hope in times of despair. People use religion to Dish out cruelty.
Religion is fine. It's we the people who are the failure , not some book.

So yes the koran the Bible the tankha all pretty similar. It's us who choose to make them different.

What I highlighted is where you are going wrong. A religion is an ideology, a collection of ideas and practices. If these ideas are bad or practices barbaric, then the religion/ideology is also bad and barbaric. The idea that gays should be killed for being gay is bad imo, so any ideology that has this idea is also bad in my mind. If one agrees they should be killed, then an ideology that does so won't be considered to be bad by that person.


Last edited by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:05 pm

You see that sounds as if you're saying all Muslims are the same, they are bad people and hence you dislike them. But you've just said the opposite.

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Post by carpet baboon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:06 pm

the-goon wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Just to clarify a few things on my opinion on religion
If you read any of the religious books in there original form 95% of them are pretty similar in that they teach about living a good life and ultimately being nice to each other.
Over the years many rewrites and re interpretation have been made that have given greater emphasis to some parts, and this is clearly shown in the multitude of different branches of the said religions.  This has happened in pretty much every religion.
Now that leads to the whole my religion is right yours is wrong  yours says this but mine says that cowpat we are now going through.

To claim the koran promotes violence and the Bible dosent is in my very humble opinion stupid. Just as it would be to claim the other way round.

The thing is all religions are good upuntil people get involved and choose to use it for there own ends.

Religion gives people hope in times of despair. People use religion to Dish out cruelty.
Religion is fine. It's we the people who are the failure , not some book.

So yes the koran the Bible the tankha all pretty similar. It's us who choose to make them different.

What I highlighted is where you are going wrong. A religion is an ideology, a collection of ideas and practices. If these ideas are bad or practices barbaric, then the religion is also bad and barbaric. The idea that gays should be killed for being gay is bad imo, so any ideology that has this idea is also bad in my mind. If one agrees they should be killed, then an ideology that does so won't be considered to be bad by that person.

Do all Muslims belive homosexuality deserves death? Do all Christians belive homosexuality is a depravity and a sin?

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:08 pm

How come all conversations get back to Religion, even when the room is full of atheists?

I knew a die-hard atheist once.  Christ! (how convenient Wink ) he used to bore me to tears - I mean bore me to f**king tears.  No matter what he heard about on radio, listened to in conversation, looked at on TV....it always was an excuse to start raving about religion.  He was one of the most Religiously obsessed people I have ever come across.  Even if watching Jamie f**king Oliver cooking up some - is it nosh? - anyway, cooking up some messy food in a bowl with his sticky fingers, my Atheist pal would start a treatise on how Religion brought the world to the that very point.... watching a messy chef toss food in a bowl with his fingers.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:08 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

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Post by Pete330v2 on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:How come all conversations get back to Religion, even when the room is full of atheists?

I knew a die-hard atheist once.  Christ! (how convenient Wink ) he used to bore me to tears - I mean bore me to f**king tears.  No matter what he heard about on radio, listened to in conversation, looked at on TV....it always was an excuse to start raving about religion.  He was one of the most Religiously obsessed people I have ever come across.  Even if watching Jamie f**king Oliver cooking up some - is it nosh? - anyway, cooking up some messy food in a bowl with his sticky fingers, my Atheist pal would start a treatise on how Religion brought the world to the that very point.... watching a messy chef toss food in a bowl with his fingers.

That's a bad atheist Fly, he's the ISIS of atheists Smile

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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:13 pm

I'm talking about an ideology, not people. Stop conflating the 2.

Anybody can call themselves a muslim, they can also cherry pick what they like about the faith and ignore what they don't like. So I don't judge individuals I meet just because they are muslim.

Can you please stick to the topic, I am discussing ideas. Again, what have I said is untrue. Where in my logic am I going wrong?

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:17 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Mate the Bible says that too. In fact the Bible and the koran have lots in common.

Bible, Old and New testaments view homosexuality as a sin. Nowhere in New Testament does it advocate killing anyone for it or any other sin.

Bible and the koran have lots in common - Not really actually.

Have people been killed in the name of Christianity? As people have interpreted the book how they chose to and believe they were doing god's will?

So actually they do.

People will use any religion to commit atrocious acts. So yes the books are very similar

People will use whatever means they can to commit atrocious acts. It doesn't require religion, contrary to popular cliches. "Religion is the root of all evil" is one of the most thoughtless statements anyone could make in the 21st Century, yet it is a common one. The bible and the Quran are vastly different, however, if you have taken the time to read either of them. There are a lot of the same characters in each (being Abrahamic religions) but there is a vastly different message. Muhammad and Jesus are complete opposites in their teachings, actually. It is ignorant to suggest otherwise. If you really want a detailed response on that, I'll provide you with one via PM, but I would prefer that you read about both yourself.

There are plenty of peaceful Muslims, Christians or Atheists. They are plenty of prats in each group as well.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:18 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

No I am not aware of his motives, but I am aware that he was at various times a regular visitor to the club. I think it is a case where it is all to easy (and simple) to label his action as 'islamic terrorism' when its actually a different situation. Any analysis of what happens points more towards Mateen 'going postal'. It is different from, for instance, the husband and wife thing (apologies that I can't remember much more off the top of my head) that happened at a similar time which very clearly was islamic inspired terrorism.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:19 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:How come all conversations get back to Religion, even when the room is full of atheists?

I knew a die-hard atheist once.  Christ! (how convenient Wink ) he used to bore me to tears - I mean bore me to f**king tears.  No matter what he heard about on radio, listened to in conversation, looked at on TV....it always was an excuse to start raving about religion.  He was one of the most Religiously obsessed people I have ever come across.  Even if watching Jamie f**king Oliver cooking up some - is it nosh? - anyway, cooking up some messy food in a bowl with his sticky fingers, my Atheist pal would start a treatise on how Religion brought the world to the that very point.... watching a messy chef toss food in a bowl with his fingers.

That's a bad atheist Fly, he's the ISIS of atheists Smile

He's a pretty normal one from my experiences, Pete. Atheists are different to non-believers. Non-believers just get on with a quiet non-believing life. Atheists are the Fundamental sect of non-believers. And like all ranting and whining Fundamentalists, they bore me to tears.

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Post by the-goon on Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:19 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.
In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe


What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

Finally some sense!

the-goon

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