All Blacks to wear poppies v Italy

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 8:55 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11745945

Are we in danger of entering poppy overload? Has it not become a bit excessive and garish? I understand the significance and it is understandable that people want to respect war heroes and yes Dave Gallagher the first AB captain did die in world war one. However, do we really need to mix sport with politics?

It seems that every time I turn on the BBC rugby commentary someone is wearing a poppy. I mean there was a time that only vets wore them now all of a sudden everyone wants in on the act.

Thoughts?

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Post by Sin é on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:28 pm

beshocked wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
beshocked wrote:How is a game of NZ vs Italy shoving it down your face?

No one is forcing you to wear a poppy though I personally think fighting in WW1 and WWII is more honourable than having an uprising whilst others were busy fighting and sitting out the 2nd world war.

Of course I am not denying the British army have done many regretful things but fighting in WWI and WWII was a necessary evil. They were costly in many ways but they have led to a more stable world, not for all of course but for many of us, especially on these boards.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Britain does not mean that respecting the dead is wrong.

Maybe read up on your history, how the world sat back and allowed the Germans and others do their thing until it affected their own interests

There was no venturous intervention, it was pure self interest dressed up as honourable

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori Rolling Eyes

I probably know more about history than you do.... but anyway....

Actually it was Republic of Ireland who sat back.... many other countries did not.

Yes you could say it was in their own interests but they still fought. Hitler had to be defeated.

More honourable than doing absolutely nothing. You can't exactly claim that Hitler was a nice bloke, honest and yet Republic of Ireland didn't oppose him.

You have no idea how much I know about history so now you are just bring arrogant and considering I said the world that would include Ireland

You say that those in Ireland were sitting back while the fighting was going on, if you were were clued in on your history you'd know there was a bit of skirmish in Ireland that wasn't exactly peaceful so it seems you are being condescending and failing to grasp the brutality of the British Empire that made the Germans look like a friendly bunch

You are right I don't know how much of history you know but from what I've heard it seems very Irish centric.

I know the world doesn't revolve around Ireland or Britain for a start...

Personally I think it's arrogant to believe that the Easter Uprising is more important than the lives lost in WWI and WW2.

Perhaps to Ireland yes but in the world as whole no. That's the problem. You are inward looking. Focusing on Irish problems and having a chip on a shoulder about the British empire.

A skirmish is not comparable to a full blown war. The world wars were bigger than one country.

How would you compare 2 million people dying in a famine under the care of the British Empire then? Is that not big enough because it happened in a small country?

The Easter Rising, subsequent War of Independence and Irish Independence was an important marker in the world - it was the first major blow in the break up of the British Empire.


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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:29 pm

Ok guys I think I can sort this out.

This isn't about Ireland, wind your necks in.

It's actually about a game of RU between NZ & Italy. And how they want to play it.

There, done.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:33 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Ok guys I think I can sort this out.

This isn't about Ireland, wind your necks in.

It's actually about a game of RU between NZ & Italy. And how they want to play it.

There, done.

Nah it's about Poppies, Barney. Poppies in the Title and Guns put up the Thread. Guns wants to talk about Poppies OK

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Post by beshocked on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:33 pm

Sin é wrote:
beshocked wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
beshocked wrote:How is a game of NZ vs Italy shoving it down your face?

No one is forcing you to wear a poppy though I personally think fighting in WW1 and WWII is more honourable than having an uprising whilst others were busy fighting and sitting out the 2nd world war.

Of course I am not denying the British army have done many regretful things but fighting in WWI and WWII was a necessary evil. They were costly in many ways but they have led to a more stable world, not for all of course but for many of us, especially on these boards.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Britain does not mean that respecting the dead is wrong.

Maybe read up on your history, how the world sat back and allowed the Germans and others do their thing until it affected their own interests

There was no venturous intervention, it was pure self interest dressed up as honourable

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori Rolling Eyes

I probably know more about history than you do.... but anyway....

Actually it was Republic of Ireland who sat back.... many other countries did not.

Yes you could say it was in their own interests but they still fought. Hitler had to be defeated.

More honourable than doing absolutely nothing. You can't exactly claim that Hitler was a nice bloke, honest and yet Republic of Ireland didn't oppose him.

The reason why Ireland tried stayed neutral was because Churchill refused to protect Ireland which was in a very bad state as it was just emerging from a fight with the mighty British Empire included a civil war and then an economic war with England.

And he was right - Churchill didn't bother to protect Belfast when it was bombed by the Germans. It was left to Dublin to send ambulances and fire brigade north after the event.

Ireland's neutrality did more to protect England than any declaration of war against germany would have.

Perhaps if Ireland hadn't concocted an uprising during the WWI, Churchill and Britain might have been more amenable I am sure.

You don't think the uprising helped Germany?


Barneymcgrew it the problem is that some Irish posters want to make a NZ vs Italy about Ireland when you are absolutely right. Respecting those AB rugby players who died in WW1 has nothing to do with the Easter Uprising.

Sin E look sorry I don't think Ireland is the centre of the world....the British empire has done many deplorable and regretful things but that's nothing to do with the criticism of poppies.


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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:36 pm

beshocked wrote:

Perhaps if Ireland hadn't concocted an uprising during the WWI, Churchill and Britain might have been more amenable I am sure.

You don't think the uprising helped Germany?

I am sure not............

Help Germany how?  Spend longer in those going-nowhere Imperial trenches where the Lords, Ladies, Kings and Emperors moved their real troops ten feet forward then 16 feet back in a nice 'realworld' chess game that never seemed to have a point?


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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:39 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

A person loses all credibility when they use 'The Independent' as their source, ironic name as well seeing as they're sheep who focus on controlling their fellow sheep with BS. "Scientists say that after Brexit we're expecting snow in January."

1.  Why would a British paper publish that article?
2. Why would a well respected and award winning English journalist Robert Fisk*, the son of a world war 1 veteran write it?


Fisk has received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times,[36] and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[37] He also received Amnesty International UK Media Awards in 1992 for his report "The Other Side of the Hostage Saga",[citation needed] in 1998 for his reports from Algeria[38] and again in 2000 for his articles on the NATO air campaign against the FRY in 1999.[39]

Sin some people are beyond reason

More of the ''only for us (British), you (Irish) would be speaking German'' Very Happy

This total lack of (arogant) self awareness is really amusing at this stage.

I can only repeat what I said about that 'news'paper tbh with you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html Wink

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Post by beshocked on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Perhaps if Ireland hadn't concocted an uprising during the WWI, Churchill and Britain might have been more amenable I am sure.

You don't think the uprising helped Germany?

I am sure not............

Help Germany how?  Spend lobger in those going-nowhere Imperial trenches where the Lord, Ladies, Kings and Emperors moved their real troops ten feet forward then 16 feet back in a nice 'realworld' chess game that never seemed to have a point?

Help Germany by forcing attention and resources needed to be sent to Ireland, leading to more bloody conflicts in Ireland where there were no winners IMO. Creating more animosity and divisions.

War is not a good thing obviously and is very costly.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:45 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:

I can only repeat what I said about that 'news'paper tbh with you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html Wink

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/18/royal-family-archives-queen-nazi-salute

And some of them helped America put a few people on the moon.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:47 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

A person loses all credibility when they use 'The Independent' as their source, ironic name as well seeing as they're sheep who focus on controlling their fellow sheep with BS. "Scientists say that after Brexit we're expecting snow in January."

1.  Why would a British paper publish that article?
2. Why would a well respected and award winning English journalist Robert Fisk*, the son of a world war 1 veteran write it?


Fisk has received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times,[36] and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[37] He also received Amnesty International UK Media Awards in 1992 for his report "The Other Side of the Hostage Saga",[citation needed] in 1998 for his reports from Algeria[38] and again in 2000 for his articles on the NATO air campaign against the FRY in 1999.[39]

Sin some people are beyond reason

More of the ''only for us (British), you (Irish) would be speaking German'' Very Happy

This total lack of (arogant) self awareness is really amusing at this stage.

I can only repeat what I said about that 'news'paper tbh with you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html Wink

Rather fairytales and rumours provide you with your stories?

Since you are so clued in on history maybe you can tell us how America and Britain never welcomed any Nazis in?

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:51 pm

beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Perhaps if Ireland hadn't concocted an uprising during the WWI, Churchill and Britain might have been more amenable I am sure.

You don't think the uprising helped Germany?

I am sure not............

Help Germany how?  Spend lobger in those going-nowhere Imperial trenches where the Lord, Ladies, Kings and Emperors moved their real troops ten feet forward then 16 feet back in a nice 'realworld' chess game that never seemed to have a point?

Help Germany by forcing attention and resources needed to be sent to Ireland, leading to more bloody conflicts in Ireland where there were no winners IMO. Creating more animosity and divisions.

War is not a good thing obviously and is very costly.

Do you think the Allies won the war in WW2? Yes? Why? Freedom from Nazi rule?
You are right about war. It's a basterde! The older I get the more I hate it. But unfortunately - there will always be 'reasons' for them. We're human, we're proud. We can't escape our intelligence or the emotions we use to inform it. We don't like to think of ourselves as being slaves - either as individuals or under systems that are alien to us. So the reasons will unfortunately always pop up.

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:55 pm

beshocked wrote:


Barneymcgrew it the problem is that some Irish posters want to make a NZ vs Italy about Ireland when you are absolutely right. Respecting those AB rugby players who died in WW1 has nothing to do with the Easter Uprising.

Sin E look sorry I don't think Ireland is the centre of the world....the British empire has done many deplorable and regretful things but that's nothing to do with the criticism of poppies.

No that's what you are making it about. For me the question is whether sport should remain sport and war memorials take their place outside the sporting arena? That question doesnt have anything to do with Ireland really and isnt confined to the ABs either.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:56 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

A person loses all credibility when they use 'The Independent' as their source, ironic name as well seeing as they're sheep who focus on controlling their fellow sheep with BS. "Scientists say that after Brexit we're expecting snow in January."

1.  Why would a British paper publish that article?
2. Why would a well respected and award winning English journalist Robert Fisk*, the son of a world war 1 veteran write it?


Fisk has received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times,[36] and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[37] He also received Amnesty International UK Media Awards in 1992 for his report "The Other Side of the Hostage Saga",[citation needed] in 1998 for his reports from Algeria[38] and again in 2000 for his articles on the NATO air campaign against the FRY in 1999.[39]

Sin some people are beyond reason

More of the ''only for us (British), you (Irish) would be speaking German'' Very Happy

This total lack of (arogant) self awareness is really amusing at this stage.

I can only repeat what I said about that 'news'paper tbh with you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html Wink

I'd be fairly sure plenty of German war criminals ended up in places like Switzerland after the war.

Could you explain why the Germans would have a spy in Ireland if Ireland was so German friendly?

As it happen I actually know the decendents of the supposed 'German spy', Clissman who was in fact the German Ambassador to Ireland.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

A person loses all credibility when they use 'The Independent' as their source, ironic name as well seeing as they're sheep who focus on controlling their fellow sheep with BS. "Scientists say that after Brexit we're expecting snow in January."

1.  Why would a British paper publish that article?
2. Why would a well respected and award winning English journalist Robert Fisk*, the son of a world war 1 veteran write it?


Fisk has received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times,[36] and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[37] He also received Amnesty International UK Media Awards in 1992 for his report "The Other Side of the Hostage Saga",[citation needed] in 1998 for his reports from Algeria[38] and again in 2000 for his articles on the NATO air campaign against the FRY in 1999.[39]

Sin some people are beyond reason

More of the ''only for us (British), you (Irish) would be speaking German'' Very Happy

This total lack of (arogant) self awareness is really amusing at this stage.

I can only repeat what I said about that 'news'paper tbh with you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html Wink

Rather fairytales and rumours provide you with your stories?

Since you are so clued in on history maybe you can tell us how America and Britain never welcomed any Nazis in?

You back one fairytale because it suits you but then dismiss my fairytale? That's The Left for you. It's funny though.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:00 pm

Sin I haven't read your article, as it's from The Independent. Again I can only reiterate what I already said about that newspaper and people who try to use it as some reference...

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:01 pm

I know very little about WW2 but was in a hotel in Donegal recently and the owner pulled out a really old guestbook and showed me Adolf Hitler's brothers entry in the guestbook. He told a story of Germans loitering around the area around the time of WWII or something like that.

One of my best friends is the grandson of a very well known former Nazi who lived in Ireland too.

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:01 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Sin I haven't read your article, as it's from The Independent. Again I can only reiterate what I already said about that newspaper and people who try to use it as some reference...

Ha Mikey you were slam dunked by Sin on that one.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:02 pm

So up hands all who think it's okay for New Zealand to wear Poppies to remember the Anzac troops who died in their thousands mostly through two big wars in the last century? Their people, their soldiers, their great grand fathers and grandfathers?

My hand is up.


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Post by marty2086 on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:03 pm

GunsGerms wrote:I know very little about WW2 but was in a hotel in Donegal recently and the owner pulled out a really old guestbook and showed me Adolf Hitler's brothers entry in the guestbook. He told a story of Germans loitering around the area around the time of WWII or something like that.

One of my best friends is the grandson of a very well known former Nazi who lived in Ireland too.

Hitlers brother lived in London during the war, they hated each other

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Post by Sin é on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:06 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Sin I haven't read your article, as it's from The Independent. Again I can only reiterate what I already said about that newspaper and people who try to use it as some reference...

So you won't read an article by a very reputable journalist because it demonstrates that you are talking rubbish. Why am I not surprised Very Happy
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:09 pm

marty2086 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I know very little about WW2 but was in a hotel in Donegal recently and the owner pulled out a really old guestbook and showed me Adolf Hitler's brothers entry in the guestbook. He told a story of Germans loitering around the area around the time of WWII or something like that.

One of my best friends is the grandson of a very well known former Nazi who lived in Ireland too.

Hitlers brother lived in London during the war, they hated each other

.................................................. or did they? drumroll

Opening scene of my new big movie:  Hitler's brother striding into British Intelligence with a briefcase.  He comes into a smokey room with a lot of senior looking people standing around looking........... senior.  He slaps his briefcase on a desk and withdraws a document.  "This gentlemen......... is how my brother feels we should play it".
Everyone in the room pauses.  Hitler's brother is in a hurry.  He looks again for some kind of approval and then all of them offer each other the Hitler Salute.

ShockedShockedShocked  That never happened!!!!  Did it??

I don't know, but Fisk is going to be writing about it next week in the Independent.  Things could be looking dicey!

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:10 pm

Trump has just phoned and thinks I'm on to something there.

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:10 pm

marty2086 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I know very little about WW2 but was in a hotel in Donegal recently and the owner pulled out a really old guestbook and showed me Adolf Hitler's brothers entry in the guestbook. He told a story of Germans loitering around the area around the time of WWII or something like that.

One of my best friends is the grandson of a very well known former Nazi who lived in Ireland too.

Hitlers brother lived in London during the war, they hated each other

He actually lived in Dublin too. Unless it was another brother/half brother Was a porter in the Shelborne hotel and married an Irish woman I think.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:12 pm

The Irishwoman had a tache so he couldn't resist.

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Post by theslosty on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:45 pm

beshocked

I have to ask why you are so intent on establishing some sort of hierarchy of conflict?
Of course the world wars were of a greater global significance than the Easter Rising - clue is in the name - but claiming either is more "honourable" than the other is going to annoy some folk. The "chip on the shoulder" cliche in reference to Irish people doesn't do you any favours either.

Aren't we often told that WW1 was a fight for the small nations? Isn't that exactly what the Easter Rising and other rebellions against imperialism were?
Please point out to me where there is more honour in fighting and dying for an empire in France than doing the same in Dublin for national independence.

I also have to pick you up on your comment regarding the timing of the Rising - I don't deny it was an opportunistic strike, "England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity" and all that. However, does it make sense to hold your fire until your enemy is at its full strength - the same enemy that has occupied your country for 700 years?

I don't think you've put too much thought into your comments on Ireland's neutrality either but thankfully some better-informed posters than I have confronted you on that.
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Post by ChequeredJersey on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 5:53 pm

I really don't see how anyone could possibly object to the wearing of poppies in memory of people, no matter the actions of their countries in other atrocities and leading up to their deaths as well, gave their lives in what was a conflict of eternal importance. It not only remembers the bravery of such actions but also reminds us of the tragedy that led to it, including the passivity of much of the world beforehand. It does not constitute an attack on any other countries or imply any issue with other countries or belittle their own woes or pretend that others did not contribute to those woes. It does not seem an area to have a conflict on here about perceived and definite wrongs caused or who knows more about history. Poppies can only be a negative thing if you choose to view them as such, which is sad, but it's not a reason to argue online, and it is certainly NZ and Italy's choice as to whether either side decides to wear them
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Post by Sin é on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 6:20 pm

theslosty wrote:beshocked

I have to ask why you are so intent on establishing some sort of hierarchy of conflict?
Of course the world wars were of a greater global significance than the Easter Rising - clue is in the name - but claiming either is more "honourable" than the other is going to annoy some folk. The "chip on the shoulder" cliche in reference to Irish people doesn't do you any favours either.

Aren't we often told that WW1 was a fight for the small nations? Isn't that exactly what the Easter Rising and other rebellions against imperialism were?
Please point out to me where there is more honour in fighting and dying for an empire in France than doing the same in Dublin for national independence.

I also have to pick you up on your comment regarding the timing of the Rising - I don't deny it was an opportunistic strike, "England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity" and all that. However, does it make sense to hold your fire until your enemy is at its full strength - the same enemy that has occupied your country for 700 years?

I don't think you've put too much thought into your comments on Ireland's neutrality either but thankfully some better-informed posters than I have confronted you on that.

This sums up the various points of view of the time (radio exchanges between Churchill & De Valera)

De Valera's reluctance to recognise a difference between World War II and previous European wars was illustrated by his reply to a radio broadcast by the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill on V-E Day. Churchill praised Britain's restraint in not occupying Ireland to secure the Western Approaches during the Battle of the Atlantic:

“ the approaches which the southern Irish ports and airfields could so easily have guarded were closed by the hostile aircraft and U-boats. This indeed was a deadly moment in our life, and if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland, we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr. de Valera, or perish from the earth. However, with a restraint and poise to which, I venture to say, history will find few parallels, His Majesty’s Government never laid a violent hand upon them, though at times it would have been quite easy and quite natural, and we left the de Valera Government to frolic with the German and later with the Japanese representatives to their heart’s content. ”

De Valera replied to Churchill in another radio broadcast, which was popular when broadcast in Ireland:[72]

“ Allowances can be made for Mr. Churchill’s statement, however unworthy, in the first flush of victory. No such excuse could be found for me in this quieter atmosphere. There are, however, some things it is essential to say. I shall try to say them as dispassionately as I can. Mr. Churchill makes it clear that, in certain circumstances, he would have violated our neutrality and that he would justify his actions by Britain’s necessity. It seems strange to me that Mr. Churchill does not see that this, if accepted, would mean that Britain's necessity would become a moral code and that when this necessity became sufficiently great, other people’s rights were not to count... that is precisely why we had this disastrous succession of wars — World War No.1 and World War No.2 — and shall it be World War No.3?

Surely Mr. Churchill must see that if his contention be admitted in our regard, a like justification can be framed for similar acts of aggression elsewhere and no small nation adjoining a great Power could ever hope to be permitted to go its own way in peace. It is indeed fortunate that Britain's necessity did not reach the point where Mr. Churchill would have acted. All credit to him that he successfully resisted the temptation which I have no doubt many times assailed him in his difficulties, and to which, I freely admit, many leaders might have easily succumbed.

It is indeed hard for the strong to be just to the weak, but acting justly always has its rewards. By resisting his temptation in this instance, Mr. Churchill, instead of adding another horrid chapter to the already bloodstained record of the relations between England and this country, has advanced the cause of international morality — an important step, one of the most important indeed that can be taken on the road to the establishment of any sure basis for peace....

Mr. Churchill is proud of Britain’s stand alone, after France had fallen and before America entered the war. Could he not find in his heart the generosity to acknowledge that there is a small nation that stood alone not for one year or two, but for several hundred years against aggression; that endured spoliations, famine, massacres, in endless succession; that was clubbed many times into insensibility, but each time on returning to consciousness took up the fight anew; a small nation that could never be got to accept defeat and has never surrendered her soul?
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Post by doctor_grey on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 8:41 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I really don't see how anyone could possibly object to the wearing of poppies in memory of people, no matter the actions of their countries in other atrocities and leading up to their deaths as well, gave their lives in what was a conflict of eternal importance. It not only remembers the bravery of such actions but also reminds us of the tragedy that led to it, including the passivity of much of the world beforehand. It does not constitute an attack on any other countries or imply any issue with other countries or belittle their own woes or pretend that others did not contribute to those woes. It does not seem an area to have a conflict on here about perceived and definite wrongs caused or who knows more about history. Poppies can only be a negative thing if you choose to view them as such, which is sad, but it's not a reason to argue online, and it is certainly NZ and Italy's choice as to whether either side decides to wear them
A dangerous thread to wade into. But, mate, you nailed it.

Further.........
SecretFly wrote:So up hands all who think it's okay for New Zealand to wear Poppies to remember the Anzac troops who died in their thousands mostly through two big wars in the last century?  Their people, their soldiers, their great grand fathers and grandfathers?

My hand is up.
Me too.

I have done my time, probably far too much. And seen awful things. But have also seen incredible brave, honourable, and noble things. So many of the people who have done the great things have willingly gone back to normal lives, quiet, unassuming, and unrecognized. Mostly by design. I wear a poppy at this time of year because I think of these people most of all, as well as those who didn't come home. Just a simple gesture of respect.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 8:45 pm

doctor_grey wrote:

I have done my time, probably far too much.  And seen awful things.  But have also seen incredible brave, honourable, and noble things.  So many of the people who have done the great things have willingly gone back to normal lives, quiet, unassuming, and unrecognized.  Mostly by design.  I wear a poppy at this time of year because I think of these people most of all, as well as those who didn't come home.  Just a simple gesture of respect.

clap OK

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 1:37 am

I think there might be a slight cultural difference here. I don't support glorification of war, but like many Kiwi being in Europe in or around Armitance day has a profound impact on you. Both wars were instrumental in separating us from the UK. Such a large proportion of our young men dead on the other side of the world fighting in a European war. There is something very emotional about confronting the carnage of war so far from home. We're pretty remote in many ways and separated from most threats.

In World War 2, Greece, North Africa and Italy were the main theatres NZ fought in. The NZ Division fought through the Italian campaign and raced to Trieste in May 45 to secure it from the Yugoslavs. Almost all of the seminal 1946 NZ Army side came out of this theatre, including Fred Allen (who's 60's side this team has been compared with).

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 2:35 am

SecretFly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:

I can only repeat what I said about that 'news'paper tbh with you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html Wink

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/18/royal-family-archives-queen-nazi-salute

And some of them helped America put a few people on the moon.

Not before they helped Russia get into space.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 2:42 am

Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Sin I haven't read your article, as it's from The Independent. Again I can only reiterate what I already said about that newspaper and people who try to use it as some reference...

So you won't read an article by a very reputable journalist because it demonstrates that you are talking rubbish. Why am I not surprised Very Happy

Sin,

I never disputed anything you said. I merely took issue with your source. I hate the independent - they're too biased and print stuff liberal sheep can get off to IE; constant negativity around Brexit, Trump, etc. I thought I'd give your article a read anyway and I have to admit it was a very interesting read - has to be a one off.

I feel some of us have perhaps moved off on a tangent with this talk of Nazi u-boats refuelling in Ireland, and with that I'll say sorry that I've spent years believing it with such crass evidence. I'm off the independent now anyway, scrolled to the bottom of the article and they're back to their usual drivel.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 8:01 am

Stick to the Daily Mail mate...

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Post by BamBam on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 8:29 am

I think the Express/Sun is more likely

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Post by munkian on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 8:48 am

BamBam wrote:I think the Express/Sun is more likely

Daily Mail is far more dangerous than the Sun, it actually sees itself as a legitimate newspaper.
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Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:16 am

What really gets me about some of the comments on this thread is that a country cant respect or honour their War dead unless you get prior approval from the Irish, even if its in a Rugby game that has absolutely nothing to do with the Ireland.
OR

Because the Irish dont understand why some other countries from the other end of the  Earth pay respect to their fallen then it must be wrong or unacceptable via the game of Rugby by the All Blacks.

This week the All Blacks play Italy in Italy, Many New Zelanders lost their lives in Italy during the Italian campaign and especially at the battle of Monte cassino, including an All Black Wing by the name of George Hart he was hit by a shell at Sora and is buried at Monte Cassino, he scored 28 tries for New Zealand. He never made it back to New Zealand .

Further there was Jack Harris a fullback from  Canterbury sure he only played 8 matches for the All Blacks but he also paid the ultimate sacrifice and is also buried at Cassino, He never made it home.

Can anyone on here explain to me why the Irish think its so wrong for the All Blacks to wear a poppy in rememberance of all these brave Kiwis, not only ex All Blacks, in a game of Rugby in Italy within days of Armistice day?


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Post by BamBam on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:17 am

munkian wrote:
BamBam wrote:I think the Express/Sun is more likely

Daily Mail is far more dangerous than the Sun, it actually sees itself as a legitimate newspaper.

Definitely agree with you there. Disgusting rag

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:27 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:What really gets me about some of the comments on this thread is that a country cant respect or honour their War dead unless you get prior approval from the Irish, even if its in a Rugby game that has absolutely nothing to do with the Ireland.
OR


No one needs permission Laurie. I put the question out they that there may be poppy overload these days. It certainly seems that way in GB. It used to just be the vets that wore them now they are everywhere. You dont have to agree nor does anyone need my permission to wear one. As I have admitted earlier I have worn one myself in the past to commemorate my own family that died in WWI and didnt need permission from anyone.

Please dont take it so personally. It isnt intended that way.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:32 am

There is a growing sense laurie that the poppy representing the dead and the general sacrifices people made during those times are lessening and more and more representative of the people within the armed forces. There is a difference for me in thinking back to people who were conscripted and the more modern/current day career soliders. With the latter it then does come more into the political sphere. Like I said I think people should be able to wear a poppy or not and have no stick directed at them. As far as I know there is nothing within rugby's rules that says political symbols can't be worn like football so not an issue. It does open the possibility in the future that some more unpleasant political messages could be worn though.

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:35 am

Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

All together now....................
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Post by TrailApe on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:35 am

I’m With ChequeredJersey, SecretFly and doctorgrey on this one – if the Italians(hosts) and Kiwi’s (visitors) both agree to the Kiwis adding a symbol to their strip then that’s ok. Individuals might be ‘offended’ with this – but then again that’s ok as long as they don’t mind others in turn being ‘offended’ at their stance. Freedom of expression etc etc.

As for the Republic assisting the Nazi’s, well initially there was a lot of rumours – probably generated by the media – at the time about U-Boats etc, but as times goes by and more documents are released it’s becoming apparent that the Republic leant more towards the Allies than the Axis – for example they allowed a free-fly zone through the middle of Ireland which greatly assisted Coastal Command during the Atlantic war.

And it’s sometimes very easy for us in the UK to remember that the memories of the Easter Rebellion and all that followed were still very fresh in the minds of a lot of people in the Republic– it was still recent history and the wounds were still open. Mind you, those who are willing to get up on a soapbox and revile the British for barbarities that they committed at the time should also acknowledge the terrible atrocities that the FreeState/Anti-Treaty forces indulged in, although I suppose the general rule is it’s ok when We do it’s – but somebody else does it, it’s a War Crime.

I cleared this with President trump, so it's FACT.

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Post by TrailApe on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:40 am

Further there was Jack Harris a fullback from Canterbury sure he only played 8 matches for the All Blacks but he also paid the ultimate sacrifice and is also buried at Cassino, He never made it home.

A certain William Pollock McLaren was also at Cassino, I wonder if they ever crossed paths?
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Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:42 am

GunsGerms wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:What really gets me about some of the comments on this thread is that a country cant respect or honour their War dead unless you get prior approval from the Irish, even if its in a Rugby game that has absolutely nothing to do with the Ireland.
OR


No one needs permission Laurie. I put the question out they that there may be poppy overload these days. It certainly seems that way in GB. It used to just be the vets that wore them now they are everywhere. You dont have to agree nor does anyone need my permission to wear one. As I have admitted earlier I have worn one myself in the past and didnt need permission from anyone.

Please dont take it so personally. It isnt intended that way.

GG dont be so gutless,In New Zealand you only ever see poppies worn during ANZAC week to say they are in over load is absolutely untrue. Of course I take it personally what some of the Irish have written on here it is nothing short of the ultimate insult, Further what gives the Irish the right to be so judgemental of what us Kiwis do? We love our Rugby, we hold our fallen soldiers with the utmost respect and gratitude, and therefore the two make a very appropriate combination. If its not intended to be personal, then what way is it intended?

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:47 am

TrailApe wrote:
Further there was Jack Harris a fullback from  Canterbury sure he only played 8 matches for the All Blacks but he also paid the ultimate sacrifice and is also buried at Cassino, He never made it home.

A certain William Pollock McLaren was also at Cassino, I wonder if they ever crossed paths?

Did William P McLaren get to go home?

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:55 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:What really gets me about some of the comments on this thread is that a country cant respect or honour their War dead unless you get prior approval from the Irish, even if its in a Rugby game that has absolutely nothing to do with the Ireland.
OR


No one needs permission Laurie. I put the question out they that there may be poppy overload these days. It certainly seems that way in GB. It used to just be the vets that wore them now they are everywhere. You dont have to agree nor does anyone need my permission to wear one. As I have admitted earlier I have worn one myself in the past and didnt need permission from anyone.

Please dont take it so personally. It isnt intended that way.

GG dont be so gutless,In New Zealand you only ever see poppies worn during ANZAC week to say they are in over load is absolutely untrue. Of course I take it personally what some of the Irish have written on here it is nothing short of the ultimate insult, Further what gives the Irish the right to be so judgemental of what us Kiwis do? We love our Rugby, we hold our fallen soldiers with the utmost respect and gratitude, and therefore the two make a very appropriate combination. If its not intended to be personal, then what way is it intended?

I have never been to New Zealand it was a general comment about poppies not specific to NZ. Gutless? It seems this isn't a topic worth discussing with you. Sorry you are too emotional and taking it completely the wrong way and said a few disrespectful things about Ireland yourself. Not interested in being drawn into that kind of debate with you. Enjoy the games on the weekend.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 9:57 am

thelosty if I was I was Irish I would in all likelihood agree with you.

I am not though. Britain has done many bad things. I will not deny that, how can I? On the other hand looking from a British perspective, the Easter Uprising happened whilst Britain and her allies were busy fighting in WWI, is it surprising that the response was heavy handed?

If you attack someone whilst their back is turned, you don't expect a brutal response? There was also going to be brutal conflict once the easter uprising had happened. Especially after WWI.

The easter uprising was never going to lead to peace and harmony, it did not unsurprisingly.


In WWI and WWII, the allies had to leave their homeland, fight and many died on foreign soil so others could live, the easter uprising was fighting on home soil for your own rights.

It was not one country fighting for their own sovereignty, it was people from many nations fighting a global threat. For that I honour those who have been forgotten but should be remembered for their sacrifice.

There's the difference.


Gunsgerms I wear the poppy as a sign of respect to those who fought and died.

Those who fought in the easter uprising fought for Ireland, those who fought in WWI and WWII fought for something IMO more significant than the sovereignty of one nation.

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Post by TrailApe on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 10:02 am

yup Bill made it home.

Bill was on the verge of a Scottish cap but contracted TB had to give up playing, but found another way to contribute to rugby.

He had the chance, it's just a shame so many didn't and that's what Armistice Day is for me - it's for all of those young people that never got the chance. The pomp and circumstance, the Generals, Admirals and Air Commodores, the Queenie and Her brood, can all stick it - it's for the ordinary people that never made it or made it through and were never the same again.

That's what the poppy is for me.
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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 10:04 am

Beshocked my great grand uncle fought and died in WWI for the south staffordshire regiment for money as did lots of young men at the time. War in my opinion revolves around money, economy and getting your share of the pie. War propaganda is desperate to make it appear otherwise. Lots buy into that others do not.  

I honestly dont care if you think WWI is more important that the Easter rising. That means literally nothing to me.


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Post by tigertattie on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 10:09 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Further there was Jack Harris a fullback from  Canterbury sure he only played 8 matches for the All Blacks but he also paid the ultimate sacrifice and is also buried at Cassino, He never made it home.

A certain William Pollock McLaren was also at Cassino, I wonder if they ever crossed paths?

Did William P McLaren get to go home?

Laurie, you do know that William P McLaren was "Bill" McLaren, the greatest sports commentator of all time?
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Post by Cyril on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 10:10 am

Most of this is way off topic now, especially given that everyone agrees that it's fine to wear poppies when it suits (or not) even if some think there is a bit of overkill.

All the rest seems to be my-war's-bigger-than-your-war garbage.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 10:15 am

Cyril wrote:Most of this is way off topic now, especially given that everyone agrees that it's fine to wear poppies when it suits (or not) even if some think there is a bit of overkill.

All the rest seems to be my-war's-bigger-than-your-war garbage.

Agreed 100% Cyril.

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