Wales v Argentina

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Post by chris_501 on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:09 am

1.Jenkins (c)
2.Owens
3.Francis
4.Charteris
5.AW Jones
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8.Moriarty

9.G.Davies
10.Biggar
11.Li Williams
12.S.Williams
13.J.Davies
14.North
15.Halfpenny

16.Baldwin
17.Smith
18.Lee
19.Hill
20.King
21.Ll Williams
22.Anscombe
23.Roberts

My only bug bear is Halfpenny at 15 instead of Liam Williams and why is Gethin captain?

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Post by munkian on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:12 am

I thought Cuthbert had a better game than North and Davies was better than Charteris.

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Post by munkian on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:14 am

Ah - 'Sam came through the match for the Blues well last weekend and comes into the side at blindside. With Sam returning, we have spoken to him and we feel it’s best for him to focus purely on his performance and role on Saturday, leaving the captaincy with Gethin'

'We have now learnt that Bradley Davies is injured for this weekend, hence his non-inclusion in the 23-man squad. The nature of the inury is unknown at the moment.'

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:16 am

It's close to the selection I would have gone for. Lydiate dropped entirely which is bold yet correct, Roberts to bench is another good call - I'm thinking that might be his permanent position going forward. Owens should not be starting at all. Lloyd Williams is terrible so hopefully he stays on the bench. Cuthbert despite looking a bit better than one or two others last week also displayed the same weaknesses that he has failed to eradicate from his game since he burst onto the scene. I would have liked to have seen Williams at 15 like others despite the fact he is equally as good on the wing - this week we should be much better under the high ball.

Apart from all that I have some reason to be positive.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:17 am

Anyone know why they swapped Lee and Francis around? Neither are amazing I guess, but is it to try and get a weight advantage in the front 5?

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Post by chris_501 on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:39 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Anyone know why they swapped Lee and Francis around? Neither are amazing I guess, but is it to try and get a weight advantage in the front 5?

Perhaps just to give Francis a chance to show what he can do from the start. I thought our scrum stood up pretty well last week, I felt this was one of the areas where Joubert was having a bit of a guess when penalising us.

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Post by munkian on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:42 am

chris_501 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Anyone know why they swapped Lee and Francis around? Neither are amazing I guess, but is it to try and get a weight advantage in the front 5?

Perhaps just to give Francis a chance to show what he can do from the start. I thought our scrum stood up pretty well last week, I felt this was one of the areas where Joubert was having a bit of a guess when penalising us.

Same as the breakdown - masterclass in flying off feet and sealing off by Aus. And weren't allowed to jackal.
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Post by mckay1402 on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:00 pm

I'm happy with that team. Roberts is fine in defence but doesn't bring any guile in attack. looking forward to seeing this centre partnership and I imagine Williams and Halfpenny will swap around throughout the game.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:03 pm

Fair play to Howley, I still don't think he's great but this is a much better selection than I was expecting. I didn't think he had the balls.

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Post by chris_501 on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:19 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Fair play to Howley, I still don't think he's great but this is a much better selection than I was expecting. I didn't think he had the balls.

Certainly some big calls, Lydiate and Roberts being the most obvious. While I agree North wasn't at his best on Saturday, I would still rather him to start every single time over Cuthbert.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:30 pm

I was expecting him to name as close to the same side as possible, and say he was giving them a chance to redeem themselves, or some old bullocks.

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Post by rumpelstiltskindoh on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:36 pm

As lots of people said after the Oz game, it's all about the tactics rather than the personnel. The shallowness of our playing pool only emphasises this - tinkering with Liam v 1/2p at FB or Warbs v Lydiate at blindside is irrelevant so long as we continue to play like its 2008.

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Post by PotNoodleMiner on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:36 pm

Liam Williams should be at full back and Halfpenny on the wing IMO, we need a full back that can attack as well as defend. Halfpenny is a brilliant rugby player but hes better suited on the wing. Hes scored 1 try in his last 28 games for Wales, hinders our attack immensly by playing him at 15

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:45 pm

I agree that the changes in personnel will only make so much difference if the outdated gameplan stays the same. Also, if our defence doesn't improve, the Pumas could tear us apart.

Agreed on Halfpenny too.

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Post by miaow on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 1:15 pm

Thank God Roberts has finally been dropped. It's two years overdue, though I fail to understand why he's on the bench. It's a case of players genuinely being too big for Wales' own good: Roberts can add nothing bar the odd decent game every international period, and yet the "B&I Lion" prestige and aura he has seems to mean they can't get rid of him completely. Best to bring him on at 55 minutes when the game is looking trickier than they expected, when of course he'll still add very little, maybe one big tackle and one big straight run, or possible being too slow in defence in a loose game. Great. Seems very strange to put him at 23.

Glad to see Anscombe back in, but equally strange decision to get rid of Sam Davies. Having done well when he came on in a situation where he was on a hiding to nothing, why has he been dropped in a game where he could continue his learning of the international game? Is he going to start against Japan after this? Better to have him at 22 and Anscombe 23. Let's be real, Roberts doesn't come close to covering the three quarters anymore. He's too slow and cumbersome for an inside centre, let alone further out. Weak management. Either you drop him or you don't, because if there's one thing Roberts isn't, it's the versatility to be a replacement. The one thing he does perhaps bring is 'leadership' from the bench, but I say that very hesitantly...

Also worth mentioning, whilst Scott Williams is clearly a great player and well suited to international rugby, he and JD2 still haven't quite got the partnership right at the Scarlets. It's not going to be an overnight success for Wales. But, clearly, this is a step in the right direction in terms of getting Roberts away from being a cornerstone of the Welsh team, and into a specific option for a specific game should Wales need to play that way in a game where they lack the muscle (SA, England perhaps, though I'd advocate running it wide against both). What I hope doesn't happen is the starting centres have a solid yet unspectacular game, Roberts comes on and has one big run, and is back in for the SA game on that basis alone, and for the 6N too. It's the treatment Tipuric received for years:

"See, he's not the messiah, he didn't score six tries and turn over every ruck."
"No, but Lydiate is like an extra prop in the loose and adds very littl-"
"HE'S NOT THE MESSIAH! DROP HIM!"

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Post by miaow on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 1:21 pm

North was looking very potent down in NZ before his injury, and has started the club season well. Very strange call to drop him, he's still Wales' most potent attacking weapon, a slightly different foil to Liam Williams in that regard. If there's anyone who should be give time, it's him. Lydiate shouldn't be near the squad. He, along with Roberts, looked so off the pace last weekend, moreso than the rest of the team. The back row looks exciting. I hope Tipuric starts at openside for the rest of the season. If he doesn't, it means Wales have literally changed nothing tactically. Lydiate is past it. Tipuric is perhaps the most taleneted player we have in Wales. It's embarrassing.

The decision to stick with Gethin as captain seems reasonable. But then I hope that kicking duties go to Biggar. It was another sign of poor management to give them to Halfpenny, 15 months after his last game for Wales. Surely if anyone should be allowed to concetrate on their own basics, it was him: it's not as if, other than the most extreme distances, Biggar has shown himself to be a poorer goalkicker than Halfpenny. It's also a really sad sign that Liam Williams is deemed the lesser player to Halfpenny. Again, like Tipuric and Lydiate, why favour the steady and non exceptional player over the genuine, near World class talent in the same position? Halfpenny isn't as useless as Lydiate, and he does have his merits for mopping up kicks behind etc. and running it out in a 'safe' way, but Liam Williams can score tries from nothing. He's also the better and younger player. But there we go. "B&I Lion Halfpenny".

Set piece is where this game hinges. Get it right, and we can go toe to toe, in a savvy way, with the wide game Argentina will bring. They will be licking their lips, let's get this right, at the possibility of embarrassing us at- for want of a better phrase- our own game, or at least our historical game. They see a big scalp in Wales, and rightly so, they're playing for WC rankings too. If we have a good scrum and lineout- one we can actually attack off- then we can have a go. The personnel changes are encouraging, but it's only on paper. The players have to turn up and actually play, carry hard, be aggressive in defence, heads up with ball in hand, and that's another matter entirely.

What last week, and four years ago, shows is the mental edge Gatland brings to the Welsh team. There's no way they would have been as complacent had he been coaching them in the week, even if the tactics would generally have been the same. He's a pretty scary man. Howley is not. It's why I think dropping Roberts entirely- putting a bit of fear into them, making them actually earn the shirt again having had so many free passes- can only improve the replacements' and dropped players' performances in the long run.

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Post by irnbrew on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 1:41 pm

The word is Toby will be back next week so then what happens 4 into 3 don't go

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Post by RiscaGame on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 1:52 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I agree that the changes in personnel will only make so much difference if the outdated gameplan stays the same. Also, if our defence doesn't improve, the Pumas could tear us apart.

Agreed on Halfpenny too.

Very worried about this. Their scrum should give them a better platform to attack off too.

Whilst I'm happy they dropped Lydiate and Roberts (kind of), I still worry we will struggle this weekend. We have a more attacking 12, I'd still rather Williams and halfpenny swapped. Hopefully they can interchange a bit. Not overly happy with the backs subs, but I do quite like the starting team.

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Post by munkian on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 2:08 pm

irnbrew wrote:The word is Toby will be back next week so then what happens 4 into 3 don't go

Id go Moriarty Warburton Faletau

As good as he is in the loose I think Tipuric is a luxury player at the moment.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:49 pm

Or just have TF on the bench in place of King.

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Post by exile jack on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 6:13 pm

The Welsh coaches could be given the All Black's squad and turn them into rugby playing oompaloompa's.Jiffy warned Wales about Australia and that same warning applies equally to Argentina.The Welsh playing style is wholly outdated and it could be a painful early evening for supporters.Got better odds on Wales losing than Argentina winning.

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Post by miaow on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 6:23 pm

Tipuric a luxury? Against Japan I'd say he'd be the most useful of the lot.

Faletau is coming back from injury. It makes sense to bed him in, give him half an hour off the bench or whatever. However, if all goes well and we can experiment with the team having beaten Argentina, then I could see a basis for his inclusion from the start, coming off after 50/60 minutes (which, in all likelihood, wouldnt happen with Wales). With that in mind, you could go for any split you like, but of the three, it would be Moriarty and Tipuric most likely to lose out. I'd probably make it a straight swap at 8 with a view to sticking with the same 3 against SA, Moriarty coming off the bench for impact carrying, otherwise you're likely to have four different back rows in four different games, which isn't ideal.

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Post by Gwlad on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 3:20 am

Tipuric, Faletau, Moriarty.

Sam on the bench. Its an awesome back row with a world class impact sub. Lydiate is now number 5 and increasingly being shown up as a one trick pony in a dismal defense.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 5:39 pm

Some pretty awful stats here:


Wales have lost their last five Tests in succession. This is their worst run since they lost eight straight games from June 2012 to February 2013.

They have conceded 180 points across those five matches at an average of 36 points per game.

They have only won five of their 12 fixtures under current interim coach Rob Howley.

Defeat to Australia last weekend was their heaviest home loss since 2006.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37935687

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Post by Gwlad on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 6:02 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Some pretty awful stats here:


Wales have lost their last five Tests in succession. This is their worst run since they lost eight straight games from June 2012 to February 2013.

They have conceded 180 points across those five matches at an average of 36 points per game.

They have only won five of their 12 fixtures under current interim coach Rob Howley.

Defeat to Australia last weekend was their heaviest home loss since 2006.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37935687


Could be worse, Duck could be President.

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Post by rumpelstiltskindoh on Fri 11 Nov 2016, 6:15 pm

How about a job-swap - Duck for Howley? We'd both be better off.

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Post by Shifty on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 4:16 pm

I'm dreading this... Watching Wales is like watching 15 lumps of turd in red shirts, run round half heartedly, while doing an impersonation of a headless chicken. My brother in law went to the game last week, and like a lot of other people walked out in disgust after 30 minutes. We haven't got poor players, just a poor attitude.
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Post by rumpelstiltskindoh on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 4:38 pm

well, this afternoon's scottish performance really gave the lie to any excuses about wales last week.

we are way behind the other home nations atm.

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Post by eirebilly on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 4:50 pm

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:well, this afternoon's scottish performance really gave the lie to any excuses about wales last week.

we are way behind the other home nations atm.

Not yet brother, just wait for the game and see how it unfolds.

If I were a Welsh fan, I would be very torn. In a way I would want Wales to win but equally I would want Wales to struggle. I say this as I feel your coaching needs a large overhaul.
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Post by rumpelstiltskindoh on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 5:07 pm

eirebilly wrote:

If I were a Welsh fan, I would be very torn. In a way I would want Wales to win but equally I would want Wales to struggle. I say this as I feel your coaching needs a large overhaul.

Yep, it sure does. If we play a completely different kind of game, at least it will show that they understand that something needs to change. If we don't, it doesn't matter if we win or lose today.

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Post by eirebilly on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 5:13 pm

Just hoping for a Welsh win today. I have so much respect for the Welsh and their fans, always been welcomed warmly by them. Quality set of fans thumbsup
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Post by stub on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 5:16 pm

Yep - good luck Wales.

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Post by Shifty on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 5:17 pm

eirebilly wrote:Not yet brother, just wait for the game and see how it unfolds.

If I were a Welsh fan, I would be very torn. In a way I would want Wales to win but equally I would want Wales to struggle. I say this as I feel your coaching needs a large overhaul.

It's not the coaches it's Welsh rugby players attitude in general, they either care or they don't. Sadly nearly all of them are too confident of getting picked regardless of how rubbish they play.
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Post by toml on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:00 pm

I hope someone has a word with Dan Bigger, he is always winging to the referee with his hands up in the air. He actually had to apologise to a touch judge the other week because he lost his sh!t at him and then was proved wrong on the big screen.

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Post by wolfball on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:13 pm

Is taking the three points a dirty idea?

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Post by Ineffable on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:14 pm

God this is boring. Going to go to this party early...

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Post by stub on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:14 pm

Dirty?!

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:15 pm

Awfulgame. Surprised Arg don't have a player in the bin yet.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:15 pm

About time....

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Post by Shifty on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:16 pm

Finally, great period of pressure from Wales, but Jesus try and do something else apart from bash through...
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Post by stub on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:16 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Awfulgame. Surprised Arg don't have a player in the bin yet.

Well timed comment.

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Post by wolfball on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:19 pm

That argie prop will be on for the rest of the match...

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Post by rumpelstiltskindoh on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:31 pm

hard to believe this back line averages nearly 40 caps each. They look like they are still learning how to play together....that's more like it


Last edited by rumpelstiltskindoh on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Shifty on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:31 pm

Argentina score a try in the first 4 minutes of the second half, you can see it a mile off. laughing
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:45 pm

Alum Wyn Jones gets away with an off the ball neck roll. They've been a yellow card all season domestically. Nice to see the usual consistency come the internationals.

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Post by Artful_Dodger on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:48 pm

Moriarty really is dull. Doh

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:49 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Alum Wyn Jones gets away with an off the ball neck roll. They've been a yellow card all season domestically. Nice to see the usual consistency come the internationals.

Wasn't a neck roll, he grabbed him by the shirt. Consistency is something you don't get from SH refs you should know that by now.

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Post by wolfball on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:53 pm

The constant chatter at the referee from Wales (Biggar in particular) is leaving a bad taste. Wales should be hammering this Argentina team.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:57 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Alum Wyn Jones gets away with an off the ball neck roll. They've been a yellow card all season domestically. Nice to see the usual consistency come the internationals.

Wasn't a neck roll, he grabbed him by the shirt. Consistency is something you don't get from SH refs you should know that by now.

At least one hand is grabbing him round the back of the head. He's lucky not to have had a ten minute sit down. True SH refs vary massively in ability.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 6:59 pm

wolfball wrote:The constant chatter at the referee from Wales (Biggar in particular) is leaving a bad taste. Wales should be hammering this Argentina team.

We aren't that good....

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