Scotland v Argentina, 19 November

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Scotland v Argentina, 19 November Empty Scotland v Argentina, 19 November

Post by George Carlin on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:35 pm

Scotland v Argentina, 19 November Mini_s10        Scotland v Argentina, 19 November Mini_p10
SCOTLAND v ARGENTINA
19 November 2016
17:00 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC Two

Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Jérôme Garcès (France), Thomas Charabas (France)
Television match official: Shaun Davey (England)
Timekeeper: Graeme Marshall (Scotland)
Assessor: Andrew Cole (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
6 Won 9
0 Drawn 0
9 Lost 6
309 Points 268

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
41 – 31 to Scotland
2014 Autumn International

21 June 2014
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba
19 – 21 to Scotland
2014 Mid-year Test

25 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
13 – 12 to Argentina
2011 Rugby World Cup

19 June 2010
Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata
9 – 13 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

12 June 2010
Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán
16 – 24 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

28 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 9 to Argentina
2009 Autumn International

C. TEAMS:

SCOTLAND 
Scotland v Argentina, 19 November Scotti10
Hogg, Maitland, Jones, Dunbar, Seymour, Russell, Laidlaw (captain); Dell, Brown, Fagerson, Gilchrist, Gray, Bradbury, Watson, Barclay.

Replacements: Ford, Allan, Low, Swinson, Wilson, Price, Horne, Visser.

ARGENTINA
Scotland v Argentina, 19 November Puma10
Tuculet; Moroni, Orlando, Hernandez, Cordero; Sanchez, Landajo; Noguera, Creevy (captain), Herrera, Petti, Alemanno, Matera, Ortega Desio, Isa.

Replacements: Montoya, Botta, Pieretto, Senatore, Leguizamon, Cubelli, De la Fuente, Estelles.


Last edited by George Carlin on Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by cakeordeath on Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:49 pm

Good work on the thread GC. I am going to predict Argentina by 10. We just have too many injured players, so we are going to lose the battle up front.


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Post by RDW on Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:04 pm

Win this and beat Georgia and, combined with yesterday's performance, the AIs will be classed as a success.

Lose this and it will be a very frustrating series!

A few interesting selection points to be had with a few players coming back to fitness and needing to assess the walking wounded.

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Post by BigGee on Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:31 pm

Hard to see to many changes in the backs, except for Tommy coming back assuming his personal circumstances are resolved. If not I imagine it will be more of the same. The fact that VC benched Hughes over Hoyland in the first place suggests that he has not been to impressed with his defence.

Up front, not expecting any great changes either. RG managed to pass his HIA during the match, so will hopefully come through the next 48 hrs and be fit to play. The changes that will be made are in the back row and largely be driven by the injuries.

Hardie seems very unlikely to play, even if the leg injuries are not as bad as we feared. Watson has no one else challenging now and deserves another chance, so will play OS. Barclay played well but is never an international 8, so surely will start at 6. No.8 you would imagine will be between Strauss (if he is fit) or CDP if he is not.

The bench is surely where we can improve things. No other backs have been added to the squad so does Bennett come in? Horne may have to be in the squad again if they see him as the only other FH option. Jones can play wing though, or 12. Bennett would get my vote though as someone who genuinely can make an impact when he comes on.

At SH then Henry is likely to return if he is feeling better, but is unlikely to get much game time.

The backrow though is where we can surely be brave and blood either CDP or Bradbury.

That gives us a team of:

1. Dell (deserves another run out)
2. Ford (continuity)
3. Fargerson (the coming man)
4. Gray
5 Gray
6. Barclay
7. Watson
8. Strauss (CDP if not fit)

9. Laidlaw
10. Russell
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar
13. Jones
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. Reid (I would even consider Allen)
17. Brown (would be starting if the props had more experience)
18. Low
19. Gilchrist
20. CDP (or Bradbury if Strauss not fit)
21. Pygros
22. Horne
23. Bennett



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Post by RDW on Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:39 pm

I think that team is pretty accurate Biggee.

The biggest blow would be if we lost Richie Gray - it would mean a double whammy of Gilchrist starting and Swinson on the bench.

Wilson only went off with a bad cut on his leg so may be fit...

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Post by cakeordeath on Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:49 pm

Visser and Gilchrist should be nowhere near the team. Neither of them offer anything.

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Post by jimbopip on Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:53 pm

Gee, GC raised the question as to whether VC would look to grind out wins to improve his% rather than introduce players the new coach wants bloodied. If GG is in the 23 we know the answer that.
I like your team but I'd go
6. CDP
7.Barcs
8.Bluto
With Hamish from the glen benching. I didn't see enough from him yesterday, I may review that after I watch the match on the tellybox
Front row
1.Shrek
2.Brown
3. Ragnar The Pretty.
ThePumas scrummage a lot better than the Wallabies do. Yesterday's starting front row would get mangled up and spat out pdq.
Henners to start at 9

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Post by BigGee on Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:34 pm

Don't know about the Argies front row Jim.

Certainly in days gone by it was a fearsome unit, but they have modified their playing style since coming into the Rugby Championship and Super Rugby, it did not look anything special against the Welsh and the Aussie scrum is not the powder puff outfit it used to be.

Gordy R did not do his prospects much good by giving away a stupid penalty as soon as he came on. He does unfortunately have a bit of a track record for that when playing for Scotland. Dell did ok actually, in both scrum and around the park. He is surely worth another crack and may be a better longer term prospect than Gordy, who has never really convinced at this level.

On form, I agree Brown should start, but he won't, partly because of the inexperience of the other front row players and also because VC seems to prefer Fordy. I can't see that changing before Toonie comes along, as we have said before, Big Vern does seem to have his favourites.

I would not have any great issues with your backrow, a lot may come down to who is fit. Watson was not a stand out (in the way Huw Jones was) but he did not play badly either and if he was considered good enough to start the last game on form, then to me that has not really changed. It was a ball carrying back row player or two that we missed in the last game and not an out and out openside, which I am not sure Barclay is any more.

The win is all that matters in this game at the end of the day, whether it is a thing of beauty or a grind. World cup rankings are at play and we could be into the top 8 if we beat Argentina. He will pick his best team for this game and maybe experiment a little against Georgia.

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Post by R!skysports on Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:44 pm

cakeordeath wrote:Visser, WILSON and Gilchrist should be nowhere near the team. Neither of them offer anything.

Fixed that for u

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Post by jimbopip on Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:10 pm

Having watched yesterday's game I am more convinced than ever that Turnstile Tim should never be allowed near Scotland squad again.

GG reminds me of a scathing summation of a batsman's unwillingness to "front up" to fast bowling. "You don't need to bowl fast to get him out, just run up fast". Similarly, when GG attacks the gain line the opposition don't actually need to take tackle him to make him throw himself to the floor, they just need to look as if they might.

Which begs the question; were GG and Turnstile Tim training partners whenever the MFL practiced tackling?


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Post by George Carlin on Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:13 am

I am not sure about the Pumas this time. Look at their most recent results:

On 8 October, they played their last match of the Rugby Championship at which they played 6, won 1, lost 5.

5 November
Japan 20–54 Argentina (Japan had 13 new caps playing)

12 November
Wales 24–20 Argentina (this is the Wales side that was fisted by the Wallabies)

We're playing at home. If we can get front row parity and Gilchrist and Wilson vanish from the set up, then surely we should be expecting a win?
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Post by RDW on Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:32 am

I don't think we can expect to win anything, but it would be a real disappointment if we lost given the performance at the weekend.

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Post by cakeordeath on Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:22 am

Riskysports wrote:
cakeordeath wrote:Visser, WILSON and Gilchrist should be nowhere near the team. Neither of them offer anything.

Fixed that for u

Thanks Risky, how could I forget

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:28 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think that team is pretty accurate Biggee.

The biggest blow would be if we lost Richie Gray - it would mean a double whammy of Gilchrist starting and Swinson on the bench.

Wilson only went off with a bad cut on his leg so may be fit...

Please God no! Strauss and CDP (and Bradbury) are just better players. Plain and simple.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:33 am

BigGee wrote:Gordy R did not do his prospects much good by giving away a stupid penalty as soon as he came on. He does unfortunately have a bit of a track record for that when playing for Scotland. Dell did ok actually, in both scrum and around the park. He is surely worth another crack and may be a better longer term prospect than Gordy, who has never really convinced at this level.

On form, I agree Brown should start, but he won't, partly because of the inexperience of the other front row players and also because VC seems to prefer Fordy. I can't see that changing before Toonie comes along, as we have said before, Big Vern does seem to have his favourites.

Agree on Reid. He came off the bench seemingly thinking he could win the game on his own. Gave away a really silly penalty and starting trying to pick a fight with any Australian that came close. Almost exactly the opposite of what we needed from him. Dell was solid and hardworking, as he has been for Edinburgh each time I've seen him. He isn't the second coming of Os Du Randt, but he's a reliable option for us until Dickinson and Sutherland return from injury. I'd start Dell again, and bench Reid (with a word in his ear before he comes on).

You're probably right about Brown, but he really ought to be starting now based on form. His breakdown work is also very good indeed. There seems to be a feeling that Ford helps the props in the scrum, and we may require that against Argentina (albeit the scrum is not so much their sole focus these days), but I don't think it's enough to deprive Brown a couple of starts.

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:53 am

It was a shame in the previous match that they took Ford off a few minutes before Hardie got hurt. Brown could have come on at 6.

I think if Strauss or Wilson ends up benching that I want Brown to come on with 20 to maintain 2 skilled breakdown operators with whomever of Barclay and Watson is still on the pitch. Allan ahead of a not fit Reid on the bench. I like Reid as he brings a little punch to the pack and does not tend to get in trouble like Wilson. At the moment though he is trying too hard and needs to settle his fitness.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:34 am

For the game against the Pumas, I’d probably play a similar side but with a few changes.

1. Dell – Did enough to keep the shirt until Dicko or Sutherland is fit.
2. Ford – Brown did well when he came on, but might be worth having Ford there for his experience
3. Fagerson – Struggled at times in the scrum, but it was only his 2nd (I think) cap, he’s still very much learning the role and is the best option we have behind Nel
4. Gray
5. Gray – Both were phenomenal, Johnny made more tackles (24) than any other player at the weekend.  Ritchie was his closest challenger with 23.  Ritchie was involved in all 3 tries and Johnny scored.  Both are class
6. Hardie – If fit/CDP if not
7. Watson – I don’t think he did too badly, he seems to have picked up some criticism on here, but for me I thought he put in a decent shift and deserves another run.
8. Barclay/Strauss – Barclay did well but it depends on the game we want to play.  Strauss would offer more with ball in hand.  Personally I would have Bradbury, but he’s not been called up (as yet)
9. Laidlaw – Had a solid game.  Was a bit ropey with his passing for the first 10 mins or so, but after that he did well.
10. Russell – Best 10 we have.
11. Seymour – As long as he’s ready to play.  No idea what the personal issues were that kept him out against Oz but hopefully he’s ready to play
12. Dunbar – He still doesn’t seem back to the levels he was prior his ACL injury, but did well enough
13. Jones – How could he be dropped.  2 tries and a try saving interception.
14. Maitland – Still doesn’t score for us, but he’s at least solid with in defence and does pose a threat.
15. Hogg – I think he tries too hard.  He’s our best FB and a brilliant player, I think he just needs to decide when to be brilliant.  By that I mean he ran down blind alleys on a number of occasions on sat.  I think he’s used to being the stand out player in the team and we’re now bringing through others who can help him shine, rather than the “sod it I’ll do it myself”, he needs to use his teammates more.

Bench
16. Reid – Wasn’t great when he came on, but probably the best option we have for the bench currently
17. Brown – Unlucky not to be starting, when Dickinson or Nel are back then he should possibly be our starting hooker.
18. Low – Last man standing
19. Gilchrist – I would have Toolis in ahead of Gilchrist, but given he’s not in the squad and the options are GC or Swinson, I’m going to have to pick GC.
20. Strauss/Barclay – Whoever isn’t starting between the two
21. Pyrgos – Assuming he’s fit/able to play
22. Horne – 2nd best 10
23. Visser – His defence is still woeful.  He was badly at fault for Australia’s first try when he just waved his arms at Hodge rather than attempting anything that would resemble a tackle, and he lost out on a high ball to Genia who I think was described at the time as the smallest man on the park, who he has 6 inches on in height. .  He’s a threat going forward but a liability in a lot of other aspects.  I’m only including him because if we need a try then he’s probably our best bet from the remaining wingers.

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Post by R!skysports on Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:57 am

EWT Spoons wrote:For the game against the Pumas, I’d probably play a similar side but with a few changes.

1. Dell – Did enough to keep the shirt until Dicko or Sutherland is fit.
2. Ford – Brown did well when he came on, but might be worth having Ford there for his experience
3. Fagerson – Struggled at times in the scrum, but it was only his 2nd (I think) cap, he’s still very much learning the role and is the best option we have behind Nel
4. Gray
5. Gray – Both were phenomenal, Johnny made more tackles (24) than any other player at the weekend.  Ritchie was his closest challenger with 23.  Ritchie was involved in all 3 tries and Johnny scored.  Both are class
6. Hardie – If fit/CDP if not
7. Watson – I don’t think he did too badly, he seems to have picked up some criticism on here, but for me I thought he put in a decent shift and deserves another run.
8. Barclay/Strauss – Barclay did well but it depends on the game we want to play.  Strauss would offer more with ball in hand.  Personally I would have Bradbury, but he’s not been called up (as yet)
9. Laidlaw – Had a solid game.  Was a bit ropey with his passing for the first 10 mins or so, but after that he did well.
10. Russell – Best 10 we have.
11. Seymour – As long as he’s ready to play.  No idea what the personal issues were that kept him out against Oz but hopefully he’s ready to play
12. Dunbar – He still doesn’t seem back to the levels he was prior his ACL injury, but did well enough
13. Jones – How could he be dropped.  2 tries and a try saving interception.
14. Maitland – Still doesn’t score for us, but he’s at least solid with in defence and does pose a threat.
15. Hogg – I think he tries too hard.  He’s our best FB and a brilliant player, I think he just needs to decide when to be brilliant.  By that I mean he ran down blind alleys on a number of occasions on sat.  I think he’s used to being the stand out player in the team and we’re now bringing through others who can help him shine, rather than the “sod it I’ll do it myself”, he needs to use his teammates more.

Bench
16. Reid – Wasn’t great when he came on, but probably the best option we have for the bench currently
17. Brown – Unlucky not to be starting, when Dickinson or Nel are back then he should possibly be our starting hooker.
18. Low – Last man standing
19. Gilchrist – I would have Toolis in ahead of Gilchrist, but given he’s not in the squad and the options are GC or Swinson, I’m going to have to pick GC.
20. Strauss/Barclay – Whoever isn’t starting between the two
21. Pyrgos – Assuming he’s fit/able to play
22. Horne – 2nd best 10
23. Visser – His defence is still woeful.  He was badly at fault for Australia’s first try when he just waved his arms at Hodge rather than attempting anything that would resemble a tackle, and he lost out on a high ball to Genia who I think was described at the time as the smallest man on the park, who he has 6 inches on in height. .  He’s a threat going forward but a liability in a lot of other aspects.  I’m only including him because if we need a try then he’s probably our best bet from the remaining wingers.

All good until this. He should not be selected. Even his attacking was woeful. Half hearted effort, only eclipsed by his zero effort on defense.
Not a fan

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:01 am

I agree Risky, but my rational was just that of the remaining options; Visser, Hughes, Hoyland, he's probably the best bet if we are chasing the game.

He was particularly poor on sat though.

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Post by RDW on Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:07 am

Again I'll go back to my previous post - we need Matt Scott, Mark Bennett or a fit Duncan Taylor on the bench - a winger on the bench really adds very little to the squad given that he's only going to get on if a winger gets injured. Given that Visser barely gets himself dirty that is very unlikely!

It was a bad selection call by VC and we paid the price.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:14 am

Fair shout. Taylor I believe can cover the wing as well, as can Jones I suppose.

Based on that I would then amend my team to drop Visser in favour of Scott or Bennett. Not sure Taylor is fit given he's not played this season

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Post by tigertattie on Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:42 am

Why was Dunbar subbed off? I never saw him getting injured! (just stretching out a bit)

If he's crocked for Sat then I think Matt Scott (12) needs to be called up. If Dunbar is 100% then I see Bennett on the bench!
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Post by RDW on Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:44 am

Dunbar wasn't on the injury bulletin. Richie Gray is going through concussion prototcall, Hardie has concussion and has hurt his ankle and knee (luckily the initial prognosis wasn't too serious - hope that's the case) and Wilson has a bad cut on his ankle..

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Post by tigertattie on Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:53 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Dunbar wasn't on the injury bulletin. Richie Gray is going through concussion prototcall, Hardie has concussion and has hurt his ankle and knee (luckily the initial prognosis wasn't too serious - hope that's the case) and Wilson has a bad cut on his ankle..

We can't be too careful in this day and age!

I think it wise that Wilson is sent to the states to see a specialist about his injury. A period of 6 months of Physio should also be considered!
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Post by BigGee on Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:11 pm

Don't be surprised to see Wilson back in the mix if the injury allows it.

Despite what most people on here feel about him, you can't really blame him for the loss bearing in mind he was not on the field for 5 mins.

Whatever we feel about him and I, as a Glasgow fan, would agree that he has never proven himself at international level despite plenty of chances, VC clearly does rate him and has picked him over other supporters choices in the past.

If he is fit, then he is likely to be in the mix, more so if Strauss is not fit. CDP has not looked like he has 80 mins in him in any of his games so far this year, that is unlikely to have changed by next Saturday.

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Post by reallybored on Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:35 pm

This is what I'd fancy.

15.  Hogg
14.  Seymour
13.  Jones
12.  Dunbar
11.  Maitland
10.  Russell
9.  Laidlaw

8.  Bradbury
7.  Barclay
6.  Harley
5.  Gray
4.  Gray
3.  Fagerson
2.  Ford
1.  Dell

16.  Brown
17.  Reid
18.  Low
19.  Gilchrist
20.  Watson
21.  Pyrgos
22.  Horne
23.  Bennett

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Post by tigertattie on Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:04 pm

why are you dropping Watson who did nothing wrong on Sat for Harley?
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Post by EST on Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:10 pm

What needs to happen: Better balance in the backrow and more impact from the bench. With that in mind, I would go for:

1. Dell
2. Brown
3. Fagerson
4. R. Gray
5. J. Gray
6. Bradbury
7. Barclay
8. CDP

9. Laidlaw
10. Russell
11. Maitland
12. Dunbar
13. Jones
14. Seymour
15. Hogg

16. Allan
17. Ford
18. Low
19. Toolis
20. Watson
21. Pyrgos
22. Scott
23. Bennett

I understand that above is never going to happen. However, Barclay pretty much played as a 7 at he weekend and I thought he was great. We need more ball carriers, so I would bring in Bradbury (who is a proper 6) and CDP at 8, assuming that Strauss is injured. No Reid (not an international player), Wilson (ditto), GG (who isn't at the moment) and Horne, who I just don't think can be trusted defensively at this level. I understand that there ais no 10/outside back cover on the bench, however I think we have enough flexibility to cope.

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:14 pm

Probably on the basis that Barclay did more on the ground and can carry slightly better with the fact that asking the 2nd row to make 47 tackles is not viable week in, week out. Harley would work well if he could even remotely carry or was more powerful in the scrum. At the moment he can't do either. In that pack though you already have both Grays, Fagerson, Bradbury and Barclay who are all able ball carriers so having someone do grunt work is less an issue.

I think on a practical level Swinson may be better on the bench than Gilchrist. Swinson has shown he can be dynamic at club level this season and he is better able to cover 6 in an emergency. Gilchrist has not gotten into form.

Based on the squad

Dell, Ford, Fagerson, Gray, Gray, Barclay, Watson, CDP, Laidlaw, Russell, Seymour, Dunbar, Jones, Maitland, Hogg

Brown, Allan, Low, Swinson, Strauss/Wilson, Pyrgos, Horne, Bennett

If R Gray is unavailable, Gilchrist starts. Swinson can be dynamic for 20 against big boys who are already shattered. Not for 60 when they are fresh.

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Post by BigGee on Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:50 pm

I tend to agree that I don't see Harley as a genuine international back row player, much as I love him playing for Glasgow and as has been done to death before, he is unfortunately a stone to light to be a second row. Truth is that Bradbury should have been in the squad ahead of him, hopefully by the 6N he will be.

I would have little issue with Allan benching ahead of Reid as well. Reid has had chances and Allan may well be the better prospect.

Of our three No.8's Wilson/Strauss/CDP none of them may be 100% fit, so one to start and one on the bench seems a given.

Agreed that there is no point putting Visser on the bench, Bennett is the better choice.

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Post by reallybored on Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:54 pm

tigertattie wrote:why are you dropping Watson who did nothing wrong on Sat for Harley?
Because I think we need more balance in the back-row, imo it's been Cotter's biggest failing as Scotland coach.

The Pumas are likely be more physical upfront and keep it a bit tighter than Australia.

Watson had a solid game but Barclay was better imo.

Bradbury is in because he's a cracking ball-carrier and a proper number 8 (despite starting at 6 for Edinburgh).

CPD likes to seagull a bit too much for me, would prefer a grafter who'll hit rucks and make tackles, hence why I'd start Harley.

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Post by tigertattie on Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:07 pm

reallybored wrote:
tigertattie wrote:why are you dropping Watson who did nothing wrong on Sat for Harley?
Because I think we need more balance in the back-row, imo it's been Cotter's biggest failing as Scotland coach.

The Pumas are likely be more physical upfront and keep it a bit tighter than Australia.

Watson had a solid game but Barclay was better imo.

Bradbury is in because he's a cracking ball-carrier and a proper number 8 (despite starting at 6 for Edinburgh).

CPD likes to seagull a bit too much for me, would prefer a grafter who'll hit rucks and make tackles, hence why I'd start Harley.

I'm afraid that chopper Harley doesn't have a good enough all round game to justify international selection! He's in the same mold as Lydiate!

Backrow for sat should be

6. Barclay
7. Watson
8. CDP/Bradbury (with the non starter on the bench)

You could argue that both CDP and Bradbury should start with Watson/Barclay with the non starter on the bench. Starting to lack experience though if we go down that route!
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Post by R!skysports on Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:35 pm

tigertattie wrote:why are you dropping Watson who did nothing wrong on Sat for Harley?

I personally thought he had a poor game. Caught multiple times behind the gain line, and driven back.

However, he is new to the team, and should certainly be given more chances


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Post by tigertattie on Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:17 pm

Can't really blame someone for being caught over the gain line! I always see the blame for that laying with your team mates for not getting to you quick enough!
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Post by George Carlin on Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:46 pm

God, rugby coverage is irritating. I don't know why I expect better from Telegraph and Independent but now I do.

Telegraph have their wrap up of 'key points from the weekend' and the Scotland games are never, ever featured. I quite like Robert Kitson in the Independent but he apparently cannot write without being condescending. Like a passive aggressive helicopter parent at school sports day.

Scotland games are barely mentioned. Man juice sprayed asunder about England, Ireland's perfunctory victory over a p!ss awful Canada side given earnest coverage and Wales being less rubbish than last week picked apart in detail. For Scotland, nothing. Jonny Gray made 24 tackles (more than any other player in international rugby last week), co-captained the side, scored a try and he's still only about 9 years old. Did he make many 'teams of the week'? Nope.

Just goes to show that in professional sport, people only look at you if you win. I hope for the sake of this team that we chalk up two good victories which will give us some sort of momentum approaching the next 6N. The next game is very, very important. If we win and take out the Georgians, then we were only 2 points away from a clean sweep and we can start comparing todgers favourably. Lose to the Pumas and we will start deflating faster than the dollar.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:47 pm

I think that asking Watson to carry static ball against a SH team with a well-drilled defence is probably asking a lot of him. Constantly handing your smallest forward the ball and expecting him to truck it up through heavy traffic smacks of a lack of organisation among the Scotland forwards. Yes, he can be surprisingly useful at club level due to his size and ability to get underneath tacklers, I think he was poorly deployed by Cotter and co against Australia. Most of the time he was receiving the ball after multiple phases when we tended to lose our way a bit, thus as one of the fitter and more mobile forwards he was often available to carry when others were not. Dare I say it, but this is one area where Wilson is handy, being a more mobile player but large enough to carry the ball into contact. Many posters have pointed to a lack of balance in the pack (and the back row) - we did seem to lack a ball carrier and asking Watson to be something he is not is a bit unfair. Assuming Hardie is injured, there's a decent case for Watson being given another shot.

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Post by George Carlin on Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:50 pm

Watson is just getting started in his international career and has many great afternoons ahead of him. I think that most people believe that.

If Hardie is still injured (and that seems likely) then I wouldn't hesitate for a second before doing 6. Barclay 7. Watson 8. Du Preez. Barclay had a brilliant game and deserves to stay. If Strauss is fit then he should bench.
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Post by EST on Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:00 pm

George Carlin wrote:God, rugby coverage is irritating. I don't know why I expect better from Telegraph and Independent but now I do.

Telegraph have their wrap up of 'key points from the weekend' and the Scotland games are never, ever featured. I quite like Robert Kitson in the Independent but he apparently cannot write without being condescending. Like a passive aggressive helicopter parent at school sports day.

Scotland games are barely mentioned. Man juice sprayed asunder about England, Ireland's perfunctory victory over a p!ss awful Canada side given earnest coverage and Wales being less rubbish than last week picked apart in detail. For Scotland, nothing. Jonny Gray made 24 tackles (more than any other player in international rugby last week), co-captained the side, scored a try and he's still only about 9 years old. Did he make many 'teams of the week'? Nope.

Just goes to show that in professional sport, people only look at you if you win. I hope for the sake of this team that we chalk up two good victories which will give us some sort of momentum approaching the next 6N. The next game is very, very important. If we win and take out the Georgians, then we were only 2 points away from a clean sweep and we can start comparing todgers favourably. Lose to the Pumas and we will start deflating faster than the dollar.

I feel your pain, George. Launchbury and AWJ apparently played like some sort of Matfield/Eals hybrid super lock from the future, going by the reaction from most journalists. Both of the Gray's superb performances have been largely ignored.

I so desperately want us to do well this 6N, the stigma attached to our players after the previous 15 years of rubbish is starting to really annoy me.

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:48 am

This is why it is vital to beat Australia both times rather than lose by a point. This 6 nations Scotland need to win at least 3 games. Even if 1 is a flukey win, it means we can't be ignored. Italy, Ireland, Wales and France are all games Scotland can probably walk away with something. Away to England in the 4th match may be a step too far but there is no reason not to give it a good go.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:47 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:This is why it is vital to beat Australia both times rather than lose by a point. This 6 nations Scotland need to win at least 3 games. Even if 1 is a flukey win, it means we can't be ignored. Italy, Ireland, Wales and France are all games Scotland can probably walk away with something. Away to England in the 4th match may be a step too far but there is no reason not to give it a good go.

We have to start beating Wales and France. Wales are still trying to work out how they want to play, and French international rugby is in a mess. We have to start beating these teams to be taken seriously and, rightly or wrongly, to give our players a proper chance for the Lions.

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Post by EST on Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:39 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:This is why it is vital to beat Australia both times rather than lose by a point. This 6 nations Scotland need to win at least 3 games. Even if 1 is a flukey win, it means we can't be ignored. Italy, Ireland, Wales and France are all games Scotland can probably walk away with something. Away to England in the 4th match may be a step too far but there is no reason not to give it a good go.

We have to start beating Wales and France. Wales are still trying to work out how they want to play, and French international rugby is in a mess. We have to start beating these teams to be taken seriously and, rightly or wrongly, to give our players a proper chance for the Lions.

I agree, we really need to start backing up our talk with wins. I have no doubt this team is capable of beating Wales and France this year, although it will undoubtedly be very difficult. We really need to get this monkey off our backs.


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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:55 pm

George Carlin wrote:Scotland games are barely mentioned. Man juice sprayed asunder about England, Ireland's perfunctory victory over a p!ss awful Canada side given earnest coverage and Wales being less rubbish than last week picked apart in detail. For Scotland, nothing. Jonny Gray made 24 tackles (more than any other player in international rugby last week), co-captained the side, scored a try and he's still only about 9 years old. Did he make many 'teams of the week'? Nope.

He was in the Times team of the week, partnering Launchbury. From memory Fagerson and Russell also included from Scotland.

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Post by RDW on Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:03 pm

Fagerson??

Must have been a quiet week for tightheads!

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:22 pm

There were only 2 competitive games in Wales-Argentina and Scotland-Aus. Ireland, France and NZ all played relative minnows. England blew out a SA team that had a lock (a dam good one) at openside...to start!

I would have thought Cole or Lee were better with the Welsh scrum mullering the Argentines though it was the Argentine tighthead that was binned. Fagerson probably had the best game in the loose out of all domestic options. The NZ 3 got a try. Koch is decent but not great. Kepu was stable in the scrum going against a debutant 4th choice loosehead.

Next week with Ireland-NZ, France-Aus, Scotland-Argentina and Wales-Japan there should be a bit more competition. Really hope Italy get a win against SA. Do a world of good for both teams.

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Post by bsando on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:37 pm

I'd say go for the same starting squad vs Aus. If Hardie and Gray are injured bring in the relevant replacements.

Bit nervous for this one it isn't going to be easy and it would be a shame to lose after last weeks stellar effort.

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Post by reallybored on Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:56 pm

Far more pressure this week to get a result and the Pumas will be smarting after their loss to Wales.

When Argentina are up for it, they're a proper handful for anyone with a very powerful pack, dangerous backs and a good kicking game.

Thought Fagerson had a tough afternoon against Sio but he didn't crumble and showed up well in the loose. Another tough afternoon ahead for him, hopefully the scrum won't be too much of an achilles heel.

Fingers crossed Seymour is available this week, neither winger managed to create much for themselves against Australia.

Back-row is going to be interesting, has there been any news on Wilson's injury or when is Strauss expected to be fit?

Really hope Bradbury gets a chance.

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Post by George Carlin on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Scotland games are barely mentioned. Man juice sprayed asunder about England, Ireland's perfunctory victory over a p!ss awful Canada side given earnest coverage and Wales being less rubbish than last week picked apart in detail. For Scotland, nothing. Jonny Gray made 24 tackles (more than any other player in international rugby last week), co-captained the side, scored a try and he's still only about 9 years old. Did he make many 'teams of the week'? Nope.

He was in the Times team of the week, partnering Launchbury. From memory Fagerson and Russell also included from Scotland.
Good to know LT. Amazing what you don't see when it's behind a paywall.
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Post by RDW on Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:09 am

Before GC asks the team will be announced at lunchtime today thumbsup

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:01 am

8 - Ryan Wilson.

I'm preparing myself to be disappointed.

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Post by tigertattie on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:55 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:8 - Ryan Wilson.

I'm preparing myself to be disappointed.

Afraid they may as well just turn that 8 sideways for Wilson!!!
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