Scotland v Argentina, 19 November

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Post by George Carlin on Sun 13 Nov 2016, 5:35 pm

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SCOTLAND v ARGENTINA
19 November 2016
17:00 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC Two

Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Jérôme Garcès (France), Thomas Charabas (France)
Television match official: Shaun Davey (England)
Timekeeper: Graeme Marshall (Scotland)
Assessor: Andrew Cole (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
6 Won 9
0 Drawn 0
9 Lost 6
309 Points 268

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
41 – 31 to Scotland
2014 Autumn International

21 June 2014
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba
19 – 21 to Scotland
2014 Mid-year Test

25 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
13 – 12 to Argentina
2011 Rugby World Cup

19 June 2010
Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata
9 – 13 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

12 June 2010
Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán
16 – 24 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

28 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 9 to Argentina
2009 Autumn International

C. TEAMS:

SCOTLAND 
Scotland v Argentina, 19 November - Page 5 Scotti10
Hogg, Maitland, Jones, Dunbar, Seymour, Russell, Laidlaw (captain); Dell, Brown, Fagerson, Gilchrist, Gray, Bradbury, Watson, Barclay.

Replacements: Ford, Allan, Low, Swinson, Wilson, Price, Horne, Visser.

ARGENTINA
Scotland v Argentina, 19 November - Page 5 Puma10
Tuculet; Moroni, Orlando, Hernandez, Cordero; Sanchez, Landajo; Noguera, Creevy (captain), Herrera, Petti, Alemanno, Matera, Ortega Desio, Isa.

Replacements: Montoya, Botta, Pieretto, Senatore, Leguizamon, Cubelli, De la Fuente, Estelles.


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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:47 pm

Nowhere near the lions for Finn. A basic component of play at 10 and he's screwed it up twice

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Post by George Carlin on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:47 pm

Very upset the halfbacks didn't orchestrate that better.

That's the reason this Lions tour is one too early for Russell.
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Post by RDW on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:49 pm

We had loads of space to the right - should have gone for the try!

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Post by RDW on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:51 pm

Definitely a penalty - stupid from the Argentinian

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Post by George Carlin on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:51 pm

Praying to Bill McLaren now...
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Post by RDW on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:52 pm

Terrible performance but very important to get the win.

Watson had outstanding.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:52 pm

We probably didn't deserve that. Draw would have been fairer. That said delighted with a win

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:52 pm

Phew - we tried so hard not to win that game. However, if we'd lost this test series would've been a write off, so it was so important to get the win here!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:54 pm

Watson MOM for me, delighted for him. Good debut for Bradbury. Gilchrist I thought was better than he has been but still didn't add enough to be a starter.

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Post by Welly on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:55 pm

Scotland certainly have a bright future IMO.

Watson IMO looks a cracking prospect certainly grew into the game.

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Post by tigertattie on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:55 pm

World Cup seeding was at stake. Ugly ugly win but I'll take it.

Watson and Jonny co men of the match?

Bradbury did well.

Huw jones is a fine

The rest of the team were a bit poo
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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 6:58 pm

I'm disappointed in Finn Russell today, he's a much better player than what he showed today - mind you he's far from the only one to have underperformed today

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Post by BigGee on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 7:51 pm

I think you are all being a bit harsh and seem to have forgotten that we won!

Yes it was not the free flowing epic of last weekend, but the character to grind out a really tough win was there and at we managed it this time, unlike last week. Everyone is forgetting what a good side Argentina are, there is a reason that they were ranked above us!

Yes we did deserve it, after the Argentinian try, we did take the game to them and we finished by far the stronger side, with three other chances to put the game away before we did. It would have been easy to settler for the draw at the death, that would still have jumped them in the rankings, but we did not.

It was a long way off perfect, but it was a hard won victory and thatr may do wonders for the confidence of the team.

For goodness sake even Vern was smiling in the interview and was talking about having some beers with the boys. You could see what it meant to him.

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Post by Ineffable on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 7:54 pm

Seemd a completely different side from last week and a completely different gameplan. Feel they might have played a bit more positively and won by more - mindset seemed to be win at all costs which forced a tight game. Maybe pressure too.

On balance scotland deserved it. They had more meaningful possession, had the edge in the loose while both sets of backs were a bit hot and cold. Argentina had scrums and that's about it. Although 4 attempts to win is just too many credit to scotland for playing in the right area of the pitch for 10 minutes and it eventually paid off. They made the chances.

This may be a good learning experience for much of the squad though, old and new.

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Post by cakeordeath on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 8:33 pm

well that was awful. I don't think I can take many positives out of that game. Yes we won, but christ we made it hard work for ourselves. Also is Laidlaw flaps his arms any harder he will take off.

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Post by BigGee on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 9:00 pm

cakeordeath wrote:well that was awful. I don't think I can take many positives out of that game. Yes we won, but christ we made it hard work for ourselves. Also is Laidlaw flaps his arms any harder he will take off.

In what way is beating Argentina, a team ranked above us and consistently better than us over recent years, not a positive thing. Even forgetting about the switch in places in world rankings that may well get us a much better draw in the next WC, what we need as a team is to learn how to close out tight games, which an awful lot of internationals are.

We have lost so many of these close games over ther years. How many times have we come away from games like these disappointed?

Results count at the end of the day and we may well get so much more from taking a win like this than from a promising, but still losing game against Oz last weekend.

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Post by tigertattie on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 9:43 pm

Does this win make us dark horses for the 6ns next year?
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Post by cakeordeath on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 10:25 pm

We have beaten Argentina 4 out of the last 5 times. (Now 5/6) while I am not saying it was going to be a walkover we were playing at home against a well travelled and tired team. We managed to scrape a win. If we play like that in the 6 nations we will be collecting another spoon.

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Post by RDW on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 10:29 pm

The thing is, for years we've managed to pull off the odd unconvincing win, and this was another one. Last weekend's performance made us think that this group could go on to better things but it was a big step back today performance wise.

On the other hand 4 of our pack had 4 caps between them - a win against a top team should be applauded.

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Post by BigGee on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 10:35 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:The thing is, for years we've managed to pull off the odd unconvincing win, and this was another one. Last weekend's performance made us think that this group could go on to better things but it was a big step back today performance wise.

On the other hand 4 of our pack had 4 caps between them - a win against a top team should be applauded.

This group of players may well go on to better things. It was going to happen overnight though.

First make yourselves hard to beat, then learn to win, then learn to win well.

Blimey, I could be talking about Edinburgh!

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Post by 123456789 on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 10:41 pm

I think at this stage in the team's development performances are more important than results; today simply was not good enough. It was a performance that between 2006-2013 we could describe as courageous, gritty or determined, all, in reality, when it comes to international rugby are synonyms for stodgy and unskilled rugby.
The only positives of the game are that we won and we played until the last minute. The negatives are the lack of skill and endeavour in attack, Russell's lack of composure and Stuart Hogg's one on one tackling. How little has been made of Hogg's one on one defending is astounding, but he was good in attack.
But when it comes down to it we did beat a rugby championship side with a second choice front row and a largely second choice back row. Next week should be a win and a big one, no matter how Georgia have come on we should be beating them.

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Post by RDW on Sat 19 Nov 2016, 10:48 pm

My player ratings:

1 Dell - 6.5

Held his end of the scrum up OK and prominent in the loose - a decent effort from Edinburgh's 3rd choice!

2 Brown - 6

Had a chance to claim the 2 jersey but I don't think he stood out anymore than Ford has done. He is still the future however and will benefit from this experience.

3 Fagerson - 5

He's been thrust into the international stage very early due to a lack of depth, and by the look of things he really needs another year or two of pro rugby to start finding his feet. Great talent for his age but heavily penalised in the scrums.

4 Gilchrist - 6.5

I thought he was better than last week and had a few good carries and made his tackles.

5 Gray - 8

His usual self!

6 Bradbury - 7.5

A very assured debute - very physical and threw himself about. His rucking technique is also excellent - something you want in your 6.

7 Watson - 9

My MOTM. He's had his doubters at this level but I thought he was outstanding. Are those doubts still there? Carried well, physical in the tackle and even got a few turnovers. He's an animal.

8 Barclay - 6

His quietest game for quite a while - limited impact on the breakdown. He did carry well though.

9 Laidlaw - 4

His worst game for a while. His passing was shocking and he lost his head too - your captain shouldn't be instigating handbags all game. His kicks ultimately won us though game though.

10 Russel - 5

Also his worst game for a while and his drop goal attempts were terrible. Do they not practice these??

11 Seymour - 6

Still our best player in the air but had a limited impact.

12 Dunbar - 6

Like last week another fairly anonymous game. With Matt Scott doing well and Taylor to come back he needs to up his game.

13 Jones - 7

Quiet game apart from his game changing assist - he's a real talent!

14 Maitland - 6

Apart from his try did he touch the ball??

15 Hogg - 6

Weak defence for their try and was once again guilty of trying too hard. He needs to learn he's not going to make a game changing break every time he has the ball and there might be better options available.

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Post by R!skysports on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 12:42 am

123456789 wrote:I think at this stage in the team's development performances are more important than results; today simply was not good enough. It was a performance that between 2006-2013 we could describe as courageous, gritty or determined, all, in reality, when it comes to international rugby are synonyms for stodgy and unskilled rugby.
The only positives of the game are that we won and we played until the last minute. The negatives are the lack of skill and endeavour in attack, Russell's lack of composure and Stuart Hogg's one on one tackling. How little has been made of Hogg's one on one defending is astounding, but he was good in attack.
But when it comes down to it we did beat a rugby championship side with a second choice front row and a largely second choice back row. Next week should be a win and a big one, no matter how Georgia have come on we should be beating them.

I have to say, I 100% disagree

How often have we had good performances and lost - too many to count

Finally we have a poor performance against a side better than us (In ranking and on the day), but we manage to win

If this was the day in day out level of performance I would worry more - but this was the exception on how we played recently and we still WON


I think there are too many doom merchants on one poor performance


WE WON


And on the green - we had a new front row, back row,second row and centre - if we are going for pointing out areas the opposition hand their second choices or newbie - only fair to say the same for ours

WE WON
WE WON
WE WON
WE WON
WE WON

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Post by George Carlin on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 6:11 am

The sad thing is really the lack of press coverage that this result got.

That and the fact that we looked like we'd all just met in the car park before the game. It is not good enough. Either we strive towards being excellent or we don't. I have never seen Laidlaw get engaged with handbags like that. You need someone else who can calm things down and it seems that Barclay was doing that. The Pumas 9 was an undeniably punchable little sh!t, but Frodo has played against him many times and should have known better.

I'll say this again - why the hell did we persist on trying to take things through the forwards when we were clearly second best there all day? The Pumas panicked whenever Hogg and Seymour got the ball but we persistent in wasting time in pick and drives that sucked in precisely zero defenders.

It's also important that we understand where Finn Russell is in his development as a player. The learning curve is steep and whilst he can literally do things in attack that no other NH 10 can do, that will never by itself win big games without also being better at winning field position and having a better offensive kicking game (drop goals included). He is a relative rookie - let's not forget that.

Whilst we should aim to beat Wales, Italy and France at this years' 6N, we must also regard it as increasingly unacceptable if we don't. None of those are very good sides at the moment, despite Italy's amazing win at the weekend.

Upsides were Jones who looks like the real deal (Inverdale comparing him to BOD was funny just to see the look on Keith Wood's face), Watson whose work rate made things happen and Bradbury who threw himself around in the usual bucaneering way. Horne once again got thrown around like a stuffed toy rabbit in a tumble dryer and in no world whatsover should he bench instead of Bennett.

Very nervous about the Georgia match now. It's smart to have it on the plastic pitch at Rugby Park because running in a sh!t-ton of tries is probably the only way that I'll feel better about this autumn series.
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Post by George Carlin on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 6:46 am

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:52 am

I hope Scott is called up now as injury cover.

Looking at the result, and having watched the game, I think psychologically the boys will have gained from it. Any win for Scotland right now is a good thing, even to grind one out in an error ridden game, in fact in some ways that's better as they know they can do it now so the belief will be there.

One thing though. Whenever Scotland scored I immediately started sweating with nerves. Restarts. That is what damn near lost us this game. I don't know why or how we're so bad at them, but they seriously need work if we want to be able to play free-flowing rugby in all our games
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Post by BigGee on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:56 am

We should not be to hard on Zander either. Yes he struggled a bit in the scrums but it only went into complete meltdown after he went off and Low came on, which might suggest he was doing a little better than it looked.

In hindsight and much as Brown is probably a better player these days, it might have been better to start with Ford again as he did seem to stabilise the front row again when he came on. Allan's arrival did not seem to weaken things in any way either. The last few scrums were very solid.

It was always asking a lot to go out and start with two such inexperienced props against experienced and good opposition. In the context of that, they did very well and all of these youngsters need to be persevered with. When Nel gets fit again, Zander can continue his education from the bench but he will no doubt have gained an awful lot from these experiences.

We know Zander is a prospect, but Dell is doing just fine as well. He is going to be pushing Sutherland and Dickinson very hard both for Edinburgh and Scotland from now on.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:00 am

NeilyBroon wrote:I hope Scott is called up now as injury cover.

Looking at the result, and having watched the game, I think psychologically the boys will have gained from it. Any win for Scotland right now is a good thing, even to grind one out in an error ridden game, in fact in some ways that's better as they know they can do it now so the belief will be there.

One thing though. Whenever Scotland scored I immediately started sweating with nerves. Restarts. That is what damn near lost us this game. I don't know why or how we're so bad at them, but they seriously need work if we want to be able to play free-flowing rugby in all our games

I doubt they will call up Scott for one game and even if they do, he is unlikely to play.

If Jones is not fit, then Bennett is a ready made replacement and probably deserves a game in any case.

If Horne is not fit, which looks likely, then it is a FH we will need. That is a bit more of a conundrum, do we go back to Duncy, who is just back himself or to Jacko who is hardly playing? My preference would be to let Laidlaw cover FH and allow Price to have a run off the bench, which having warmed for two games now, he surely deserves.

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Post by EST on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 2:29 pm

I am delighted we won the game, but it was a serious step back in performance from the Australia game. The intensity that was so evident last weekend was nowhere to be seen, with the exception of Gray and Bradbury. The scrum was absolutely mullered, and Laidlaw reverted back to his worst tendencies. Finn didn't play well, but he needs to start bossing things and dictating play, that is difficult when the captain and 9 wants to do everything himself, you could see that it was Laidlaw calling the drop goal and not the other way around.


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Post by bsando on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 6:33 pm

I think there are more positives to take than negatives from this result.

The front row, Gilchrist, Bradbury was an inexperienced group of players with a few more seasoned heads in Barclay, Ford and Gray (who is still very young despite being incredible). So I think the pack get a 7/10 for their performance that could not have been an easy game for them.

Obviously it is hard to get go forward quick ball if the forwards are under pressure so although the backs were all pretty quiet they did well when it mattered and Maitland and Jones did very well in their combined effort for the only Scottish try of the day.

The main negatives in my opinion was Laidlaw's attitude on field, he is very Murray-esk in that when things go a bit wrong he reacts negatively. He played an okay game overall and kept his composure (just). Russell wasn't incredible but he did several things very well such as the restart that resulted in a line out and ultimately a try. It did feel like the players were just trying to squeeze the win rather than go for the win in that last 10 mins. Scotland were in control for the last 20 mins and were being a bit hesitant.

It was a win and perhaps good enough to beat Italy in the 6N (maybe not after yesterdays result for them)but I doubt very much it would be enough to beat the others.

On a side note - having watched Ireland game I couldn't help but feel a combined ScottishIrish side just now would be incredible!!

McGrath
Best
WP Nel
J Gray
Toner
CJ Stander
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Seymour
Dunbar
Jones
Maitland
Hogg

#BOOM!

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Post by TJ on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 6:49 pm

I don't think you can level too much criticism at Laidlaw for the slow controlled play in the last ten minutes. He got Scotland into a position for a kick at goal 3 times. Control and win ugly?

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:28 pm

Just watched the game on catch up. Pretty pleased with it to be honest. Great experience for some very young players and, crucially, we beat a higher ranked team with some very classy players.

I thought Gilchrist did well, one bad knock on aside, and Hamish Watson was everywhere. Promising start from Bradbury as well.

Lots to be positive about from both games so far. Hopefully we can be sharper against Georgia and put them to the sword.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:31 pm

Also, congratulations to Andy Murray!

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Post by bsando on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:16 am

Jeremy Guscott is also feeling very positive about Scottish performance..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38044847

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