Ireland v New Zealand, 19 November

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 7:15 am

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Ireland v New Zealand, 19 November - Page 3 Irelan10       Ireland v New Zealand, 19 November - Page 3 All_bl10
IRELAND v NEW ZEALAND
19 November 2016
KO: 17:30
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on Sky Sports 2

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Mathieu Raynal (France), Ian Davies (Wales)
Television match official: Jon Mason (Wales)
Assessor: Chris White (England)

A. Head to Head

29 Played 29
1 Won 27
1 Drawn 1
27 Lost 1
310 Points 812

B. Recent Form 

5 November 2016
Soldier Field, Chicago IL
40–29 to Ireland

24 November 2013 
Aviva Stadium, Dublin 
22 – 24 to New Zealand 

23 June 2012 
Waikato Stadium, Hamilton 
60 – 0 to New Zealand 

16 June 2012 
Rugby League Park, Christchurch 
22 – 19 to New Zealand

9 June 2012 
Eden Park, Auckland 
42 – 10 to New Zealand

20 November 2010 
Aviva Stadium, Dublin 
18 – 38 to New Zealand 

C. Teams

IRELAND 
Ireland v New Zealand, 19 November - Page 3 Guinne10
R Kearney; A Trimble, J Payne, R Henshaw, S Zebo; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, T Furlong; D Toner, D Ryan; CJ Stander, S O'Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, C Healy, F Bealham, I Henderson, J van der Flier, K Marmion, P Jackson, G Ringrose.

NEW ZEALAND
Ireland v New Zealand, 19 November - Page 3 Speigh10
B Smith; I Dagg, M Fekitoa, A Lienert-Brown, J Savea; B Barrett, A Smith; J Moody, D Coles, O Franks; B Retallick, S Whitelock; L Squire, S Can, K Read (capt).

Replacements: C Taylor, W Crockett, C Faumuina, S Barrett, A Savea, TJ Perenara, A Cruden, W Naholo.


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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 6:37 pm

Surely this is a ( MUST WIN GAME ?) For both teams actualy.

Ireland to make a statement that the win in Cicago was not a freak.

New Zealand to send a message ( THEY ARE NUMBER 1 TEAM ) in the world.

Cannot wait.

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 6:55 pm

If we do beat nz on sat who was the last team to beat them back to back?

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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 7:15 pm

carpet baboon wrote:If we do beat nz on sat who was the last team to beat them back to back?


If you are talking about NH teams It is England i believe. 2002-2003 SH teams? i really do not know.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 7:23 pm

carpet baboon wrote:If we do beat nz on sat who was the last team to beat them back to back?

I thought it was South Africa

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 8:02 pm

South Africa 2009, Last time NZ lost 2 games in a row. I think France also won 1st test that year and was 2 in a row (WC quarter final 2007).

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:52 am

Some thoughts on the upcoming game.

Ireland's win in Chicago was good for the game. They played an attacking game and beat the no 1 ranked side. The game needs an attractive game and a greater number of competitive sides.

I think Ireland can win again. Speaking as a kiwi I see some weaknesses in our side. I expect more lineout drives, contested kicks and attacks around the fringes of the ruck. I think it worked pretty well for them in Chicago.

However, I think if the AB's can play to close to their ability they should win. They are much stronger this time. I think the biggest areas of concern for the AB's are the defensive structure and their options on attack. In terms of the first we often spread out and don't contest the ruck. This can leave us vulnerable to either a pick and go or runs by the halfback (particularly if a defensive player can be taken out of play). Essentially there's little backup. I think they'll tweak the defence around the ruck. On attack we've tended to spin it wide wide straight away. This is a license of the opposition centres to target the midfield. I expect they'll pick and go more and cross kick or chip kick.


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Post by Gwlad on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 4:54 am

The ABs lost in Chicago. I think they are going to get hammered in Dublin.

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Post by ebop on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 7:24 am

The ABs are underdogs
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Post by rapidsnowman on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 7:34 am

Losing once to Ireland in 111 years hardly qualifies them to be underdogs.





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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 9:06 am

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Some thoughts on the upcoming game.

Ireland's win in Chicago was good for the game. They played an attacking game and beat the no 1 ranked side. The game needs an attractive game and a greater number of competitive sides.

I think Ireland can win again. Speaking as a kiwi I see some weaknesses in our side. I expect more lineout drives, contested kicks and attacks around the fringes of the ruck. I think it worked pretty well for them in Chicago.

However, I think if the AB's can play to close to their ability they should win. They are much stronger this time. I think the biggest areas of concern for the AB's are the defensive structure and their options on attack. In terms of the first we often spread out and don't contest the ruck. This can leave us vulnerable to either a pick and go or runs by the halfback (particularly if a defensive player can be taken out of play).  Essentially there's little backup. I think they'll tweak the defence around the ruck. On attack we've tended to spin it wide wide straight away. This is a license of the opposition centres to target the midfield. I expect they'll pick and go more and cross kick or chip kick.

I pretty much agree with that. Here's where I see the AB's "weaknesses".

Around the fringes of the ruck. Argentina exploited this area very nicely in the group stages of the WC with wingers flying into this channel. Sean O'Brien and Conor Murray are well capable of making yards here so the ABs will probably want to tighten it up.

Penalty count. The ABs do concede more penalties on average than Ireland. Not just last weekend.

Playing for 80 minutes. The ABs are not an 80 minute side. They tend to explode into life both sides of half time and for the last 35 minutes. Ireland need to build scores when they are lagging.

Not many weaknesses and they may be gone by tomorrow. They are definitely beatable though. As an Ireland fan Ill never forget the backlash 60-0 win the ABs had against us in 2012. Backlashes are real. Id say the ABs to win by 13.



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Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 9:09 am

Bookies have New Zealand by 16 points

Now I think that is too high but Ireland are clearly second favourites, to claim otherwise is bonkers

Ireland can win but they have to be near perfect, as they were in Chicago.

As I said the NZ 2nd row selection is key

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 9:14 am

Yeah their second row will make a big difference but l still think that they are beatable. In the 22-24 test in 2013 Sam Whitelock and Brody Retallick played the full 80 and we pushed them right to the wire. McCaw was also playing that day.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 9:18 am

SecretFly wrote:Kearney once dropped goals from the halfway line.  

I'm not so sure how important drop goals would be as if we're close enough to be trying to keep in the game or keep ahead by using them then we actually might be playing well enough not to need them.

I'm personally not a fan of drop goals.  I know other people are but I ..... I just don't like the nature of them - something unsporting about them "We can't get in because your defence is too good, but we'll keep tapping in these things anyway to torture you"

All part of the games and by the rules legit - but I've never been a fan in general.  However, if we win the game using one, I'll still accept the result Wink

I mention drop goals because I think it is a slightly outside the box approach that the ABs wont expect but it will force some on the fly adjustments and put pressure on them in areas that exploit their few weaknesses and areas that they were vulnerable on in Chicago. As Guns say around the fringes of the ruck they are vulnerable and are likely to have worked on that in the last two weeks and will probably have an extra body there tomorrow, if Ireland use drop goals then it may force them to commit even more to attempt the block and that leaves a bit more space wide. With guys like Zebo, Trimble, Henshaw, Kearney and Payne in the team can isolate some of their guys for cross field kicks too.

They'll also try hard to stop Ireland getting into position for it, that means working harder at the breakdown and getting off the line faster to stop the ball moving. That can be a fine line that can lead to more penalties.

Kearney trying it once or twice from distance when we aren't getting anywhere mightn't hurt either, means they have to try and stop it further out and if it misses territory still works in our favour

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Post by rodders on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 9:34 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:If we do beat nz on sat who was the last team to beat them back to back?


If you are talking about NH teams It is England i believe. 2002-2003  SH teams? i really do not know.

That was a bum NZ team, hardly comparable to this lot.

Not sure if it's that Friday but I have a feeling we'll do it again, weather will be pants though so expecting a totally different type of game.

Retallick will make a big difference for NZ though, we had it far too easy in the lineout in Chicago and I expect that to change on Saturday.  

This is a fascinating clash of the 2 best coaches in world rugby by far, can't wait to see what each come up with.
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 9:51 am

One move that the ABs use in every match and they nearly always score from it is the move they used for the Scott Barrett try. Two forwards in the midfield, outhalf or scrum half passes to one of them who charges forward and pops to the guy flying through the gap on his shoulder. Such a simple move but the ABs seem tto make yards or score from it nearly every game.

Ill be really annoyed if we concede a try like this again.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:00 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
lostinwales wrote:NZ do have their 'special' performances. Plus having the winning streak monkey off their back and wanting revenge. It could be brutal.

How Ireland deal with all of that will be a good indication of where they are


Revenge doesnt come into it, its about the All Blacks preparation and performance.

Ah come on of course it does. New Zealand always want to beat the teams that they have lost to much more.

I don't believe NZ will focus on IRE very much at all. The last result will be a big part of their preparation for sure, but only so they can focus on correcting their mistakes. NZ never focus on the opposition. How many times do you see a NH player interviewed and they can wax lyrical about NZ and their history, extol the virtues of particular players? When it's the other way around often the NZ players have trouble even naming the NH players.


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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:06 am

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Some thoughts on the upcoming game.

Ireland's win in Chicago was good for the game. They played an attacking game and beat the no 1 ranked side. The game needs an attractive game and a greater number of competitive sides.

Couldn't disagree more with this. How that performance can be described as attacking is beyond me. Ireland Kicked a lot and put the back 3 under pressure,excellent kick chase, they gained good territory, the set piece was excellent with the maul in particular very dominant and the line speed was excellent and unrepentant. IRE totally smothered NZ. It was a glorious execution, and glorious to watch. But it wasn't attacking. unless you say attacking to mean aggressive, then I completely agree. But if you say attacking to mean expansive...well. Lol, I think is the term the kids use.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:39 am

cascough wrote:

I don't believe NZ will focus on IRE very much at all. The last result will be a big part of their preparation for sure, but only so they can focus on correcting their mistakes. NZ never focus on the opposition. How many times do you see a NH player interviewed and they can wax lyrical about NZ and their history, extol the virtues of particular players? When it's the other way around often the NZ players have trouble even naming the NH players.


The Allblacks are very measured when it comes to what they say to the media. Behind closed doors they are definitely motivated by revenge.

Some NZ media outlets are certainly describing it as a revenge mission.

I would post a link to the NZ Herald to back this up but as a brand new poster who has never posted here before (I swear) I am not allowed post links in my first 7 days.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:41 am

cascough wrote:
Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Some thoughts on the upcoming game.

Ireland's win in Chicago was good for the game. They played an attacking game and beat the no 1 ranked side. The game needs an attractive game and a greater number of competitive sides.

Couldn't disagree more with this. How that performance can be described as attacking is beyond me. Ireland Kicked a lot and put the back 3 under pressure,excellent kick chase, they gained good territory, the set piece was excellent with the maul in particular very dominant and the line speed was excellent and unrepentant. IRE totally smothered NZ. It was a glorious execution, and glorious to watch. But it wasn't attacking. unless you say attacking to mean aggressive, then I completely agree. But if you say attacking to mean expansive...well. Lol, I think is the term the kids use.

We scored 40 points and attacked up until the last minute. How it could be described as not attacking is beyond me. There is more that one way to attack.

Ireland turned down a lot of kicks at goal to go for tries instead and crucially opted to go out the backs for Henshaws try rather than going for a push over try. It was a very attacking performance.

If it wasnt attacking how did we score 40 points?

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:50 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
cascough wrote:

I don't believe NZ will focus on IRE very much at all. The last result will be a big part of their preparation for sure, but only so they can focus on correcting their mistakes. NZ never focus on the opposition. How many times do you see a NH player interviewed and they can wax lyrical about NZ and their history, extol the virtues of particular players? When it's the other way around often the NZ players have trouble even naming the NH players.


The Allblacks are very measured when it comes to what they say to the media. Behind closed doors they are definitely motivated by revenge.

Some NZ media outlets are certainly describing it as a revenge mission.

I would post a link to the NZ Herald to back this up but as a brand new poster who has never posted here before (I swear) I am not allowed post links in my first 7 days.

The NZ media are quite partisan though. I think Steve Hansen and his team deserve a little more credit than an insinuation that how they conduct themselves in the media is not genuine. They've been incredibly humble and professional over the last few years, I really can't see what cause they've given anyone to think differently of them.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:54 am

cascough wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
cascough wrote:

I don't believe NZ will focus on IRE very much at all. The last result will be a big part of their preparation for sure, but only so they can focus on correcting their mistakes. NZ never focus on the opposition. How many times do you see a NH player interviewed and they can wax lyrical about NZ and their history, extol the virtues of particular players? When it's the other way around often the NZ players have trouble even naming the NH players.


The Allblacks are very measured when it comes to what they say to the media. Behind closed doors they are definitely motivated by revenge.

Some NZ media outlets are certainly describing it as a revenge mission.

I would post a link to the NZ Herald to back this up but as a brand new poster who has never posted here before (I swear) I am not allowed post links in my first 7 days.

The NZ media are quite partisan though. I think Steve Hansen and his team deserve a little more credit than an insinuation that how they conduct themselves in the media is not genuine. They've been incredibly humble and professional over the last few years, I really can't see what cause they've given anyone to think differently of them.

So do you believe Hansen was honest when he said Ireland were favourites?


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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:55 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
cascough wrote:
Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Some thoughts on the upcoming game.

Ireland's win in Chicago was good for the game. They played an attacking game and beat the no 1 ranked side. The game needs an attractive game and a greater number of competitive sides.

Couldn't disagree more with this. How that performance can be described as attacking is beyond me. Ireland Kicked a lot and put the back 3 under pressure,excellent kick chase, they gained good territory, the set piece was excellent with the maul in particular very dominant and the line speed was excellent and unrepentant. IRE totally smothered NZ. It was a glorious execution, and glorious to watch. But it wasn't attacking. unless you say attacking to mean aggressive, then I completely agree. But if you say attacking to mean expansive...well. Lol, I think is the term the kids use.

We scored 40 points and attacked up until the last minute. How it could be described as not attacking is beyond me. There is more that one way to attack.

Ireland turned down a lot of kicks at goal to go for tries instead and crucially opted to go out the backs for Henshaws try rather than going for a push over try. It was a very attacking performance.

If it wasnt attacking how did we score 40 points?

You turned down kicks at goal, well of course you did, you were playing for territory and looking to put pressure on them at the lineouts and mauls as they had no 2nd rowers!

It was based around aggression, physicality, territory and set piece. Like I said it was glorious.

When people say attacking they usually mean things like quick taps, offloading, going wide early. Free flowing running rugby. Your assertion that you scored 40 points so therefore it had to be attacking is flawed. You could accrue any number of points just by pushover tries from lineouts/scrums penalty tries from scrums and penalties and drop goals. The scoreboard isn't a direct reflection of the style of play you employ. It's often more reflective of the weather if anything.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:56 am

Of course it isnt genuine. You cant possibly be that naive. Being professional often means not saying what you really think.

Do you really think that Hansen thinks New Zealand are under dogs? Of course he doesnt but that is the sort of thing he is saying in the media.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:57 am

marty2086 wrote:
cascough wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
cascough wrote:

I don't believe NZ will focus on IRE very much at all. The last result will be a big part of their preparation for sure, but only so they can focus on correcting their mistakes. NZ never focus on the opposition. How many times do you see a NH player interviewed and they can wax lyrical about NZ and their history, extol the virtues of particular players? When it's the other way around often the NZ players have trouble even naming the NH players.


The Allblacks are very measured when it comes to what they say to the media. Behind closed doors they are definitely motivated by revenge.

Some NZ media outlets are certainly describing it as a revenge mission.

I would post a link to the NZ Herald to back this up but as a brand new poster who has never posted here before (I swear) I am not allowed post links in my first 7 days.

The NZ media are quite partisan though. I think Steve Hansen and his team deserve a little more credit than an insinuation that how they conduct themselves in the media is not genuine. They've been incredibly humble and professional over the last few years, I really can't see what cause they've given anyone to think differently of them.

So do you believe Hansen was honest when he said Ireland were favourites?


Yeah fair comment. He does enjoy his little mind games from time to time. Do you think that really extends to NZ players not being able to name the players that make up our teams?

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:01 am

Im sure some know Ireland players some dont. It doesnt have anything to do with not preparing for your opposition though more to do with the fact that they would only play Ireland once a year on average if even that.

In the 1991 WC Ireland played Australia in the quarters. The team prep documents were leaked after the game. The Aussies had a 20 page pamphlet on all the Irish players and their strengths and weaknesses and Ireland had a one pager. The good teams have been doing prep work on opposition for years now. That includes the AB IMO.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:11 am

Eddie Jones is pretty open about it, and actually ENG have adapted their gameplan a little as they have gone on depending on the opposition. If ENG get beaten then I'm sure in a return fixture EJ will have focused lots on the oppositions plan to adapt his own. But I don't see that from NZ. I see them play the same game regardless of who they are playing. If they do get beat, or the execution is poor, their answer to it seems to be to go and do the same thing better. Like when Ireland lost by 3, the next test NZ played the same game but with a frightening level of accuracy.

Point being, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, so you could be right. But on the pitch I see them play the same way all the time, so I think their number 1 priority will be to play the same way they always play but better. Really can't see them thinking about IRE too much.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:15 am

I think both sides, both sets of players, don't get involved with those over-clichéd 'who is favourite' bits.  I think coaches throw it in there simply to have something to say when journalists pile in.  Listen to coach-speak in any sport - it's all been said by now a million times over.  Very little original comment gets said anymore and the same keyframe comments pop up month after month, year after year.  'Favourites' is a favourite repeat offender. Wink

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:24 am

I think all teams these days make adjustments depending on their opposition, from the players they pick, to the side they choose to kick off to or even using certain set plays they think will work best against that side or against certain players in the defensive line etc. Its subtle but I think that's what NZ do they have an idea of what to do and where to exploit but the players are of a level whereby they are trusted on the pitch to play it as they see it with certain knowledge in their locker to fall back on

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:25 am

This was 27 years ago today, wouldn't mind seeing this repeated tomorrow


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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:27 am

cascough wrote:Eddie Jones is pretty open about it, and actually ENG have adapted their gameplan a little as they have gone on depending on the opposition. If ENG get beaten then I'm sure in a return fixture EJ will have focused lots on the oppositions plan to adapt his own. But I don't see that from NZ. I see them play the same game regardless of who they are playing. If they do get beat, or the execution is poor, their answer to it seems to be to go and do the same thing better. Like when Ireland lost by 3, the next test NZ played the same game but with a frightening level of accuracy.

Point being, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, so you could be right. But on the pitch I see them play the same way all the time, so I think their number 1 priority will be to play the same way they always play but better. Really can't see them thinking about IRE too much.

Well given Kearney seems to hit a high grain of form everytime he meets them - I think they'll note down his name. I'm sure they'll all know it by now. And they'll say, this is obviously more than just a jinx with this guy - 'twice now he provided a lot of the bite coming at us. Let's curtail him'.

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:29 am

SecretFly wrote:
cascough wrote:Eddie Jones is pretty open about it, and actually ENG have adapted their gameplan a little as they have gone on depending on the opposition. If ENG get beaten then I'm sure in a return fixture EJ will have focused lots on the oppositions plan to adapt his own. But I don't see that from NZ. I see them play the same game regardless of who they are playing. If they do get beat, or the execution is poor, their answer to it seems to be to go and do the same thing better. Like when Ireland lost by 3, the next test NZ played the same game but with a frightening level of accuracy.

Point being, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, so you could be right. But on the pitch I see them play the same way all the time, so I think their number 1 priority will be to play the same way they always play but better. Really can't see them thinking about IRE too much.

Well given Kearney seems to hit a high grain of form everytime he meets them - I think they'll note down his name.  I'm sure they'll all know it by now.   And they'll say, this is obviously more than just a jinx with this guy - 'twice now he provided a lot of the bite coming at us.  Let's curtail him'.
You mean 'Let's dunk him on his head?'

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Post by rodders on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:30 am

cascough wrote:Your assertion that you scored 40 points so therefore it had to be attacking is flawed.  You could accrue any number of points just by pushover tries from lineouts/scrums penalty tries from scrums and penalties and drop goals.

Yes but we didn't score 40 points from pushover tries, penalty tries and drop goals, we scored 5 tries, 4 from the backs.

So with that in mind your assertion that we didn't play attacking rugby is, with respect, flawed.
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:35 am

A Kiwi reporter asked Schmidt after the game if Ireland's victory was built around defence and his response was that we scored 40 points it was built just as much if not more around attack.

Schmidt is usually right and that's enough for me. Ireland tried to win games in the six nations by literally passing every single ball they got.

It doesnt work, there needs to be a balance and a mix. Thank god we have gone back to a much more balanced mix of kicking and running, forward and back play etc. Even the ABs tend to kick more balls than most teams.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:35 am

doctor_grey wrote:
You mean 'Let's dunk him on his head?'

We don't want no diplomatic incidents now, doc... Whistle I'm keeping the language moving down courtesy channels. Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:38 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:A Kiwi reporter asked Schmidt after the game if Ireland's victory was built around defence and his response was that we scored 40 points it was built just as much if not more around attack.

Schmidt is usually right and that's enough for me. Ireland tried to win games in the six nations by literally passing every single ball they got.

It doesnt work, there needs to be a balance and a mix. Thank god we have gone back to a much more balanced mix of kicking and running, forward and back play etc. Even the ABs tend to kick more balls than most teams.

Well, whatever they say, you can practice that kinda stuff in the 6N. It's basically the only highish quality contest where you can get a sequence of practice sessions with a particular style. And then try to pop in that mix you speak about in the more serious games.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:25 pm

rodders wrote:
cascough wrote:Your assertion that you scored 40 points so therefore it had to be attacking is flawed.  You could accrue any number of points just by pushover tries from lineouts/scrums penalty tries from scrums and penalties and drop goals.

Yes but we didn't score 40 points from pushover tries, penalty tries and drop goals, we scored 5 tries, 4 from the backs.

So with that in mind your assertion that we didn't play attacking rugby is, with respect, flawed.

Ah so the number on the back denotes whether or not it's attacking. I see. Well, it's all opinions isn't it. What isn't an opinion are stats.

how much IRE kicked from hand (a lot)
How many times they passed (not a lot)
how many offloads they made (not a lot)
how many visits to the 22 (not a lot)

the stats show you had a remarkable first half and dominated possession and territory (in doing so scoring 2 tries starting from mauls) and then in the second half got dominated by possesion and territory but soaked up the pressure with a remarkable display of aggression and defence. Even more impressively you played the kicking game well and still put points on in the second half.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:34 pm

Attack is attack.  What team puts 40 on the ABs by just trying to grizzle out a high intensity 'close-down the ABs' game?  We could have been slicker, yes - I referred to the notion that we need to just lose some of the tension that can often prevent us from seeing off-the-cuff opportunities.

But attack is attack - we could have kept the ABs in the middle of the field with rugged defending for most of both halves.  We could have tried to keep up the intensity of that tortuous stuff, keep their scores down as low as possible and try to steal whatever we could through the game (points from penalties etc)  And had we managed that, we might have come away with a low scoring win.... or a not so bad low scoring win by the ABs.

But we attacked.  It wasn't enough to use the intensity to stall the ABs intentions - we used the intensity to get us into positions to score - tries.  That's attack.  Not the AB version - but was a pretty formidable attack game.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:38 pm

Exactly - there is more than one way to attack.

You don't beat the AB's by not attacking and certainly don't score 40 points by not being attacking

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:46 pm

cascough wrote:
rodders wrote:
cascough wrote:Your assertion that you scored 40 points so therefore it had to be attacking is flawed.  You could accrue any number of points just by pushover tries from lineouts/scrums penalty tries from scrums and penalties and drop goals.

Yes but we didn't score 40 points from pushover tries, penalty tries and drop goals, we scored 5 tries, 4 from the backs.

So with that in mind your assertion that we didn't play attacking rugby is, with respect, flawed.

Ah so the number on the back denotes whether or not it's attacking. I see. Well, it's all opinions isn't it. What isn't an opinion are stats.

how much IRE kicked from hand (a lot)
How many times they passed (not a lot)
how many offloads they made (not a lot)
how many visits to the 22 (not a lot)

the stats show you had a remarkable first half and dominated possession and territory (in doing so scoring 2 tries starting from mauls) and then in the second half got dominated by possesion and territory but soaked up the pressure with a remarkable display of aggression and defence. Even more impressively you played the kicking game well and still put points on in the second half.

Final Score

Ireland (A Lot) New Zealand (Not as much)

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:56 pm

cascough wrote:
rodders wrote:
cascough wrote:Your assertion that you scored 40 points so therefore it had to be attacking is flawed.  You could accrue any number of points just by pushover tries from lineouts/scrums penalty tries from scrums and penalties and drop goals.

Yes but we didn't score 40 points from pushover tries, penalty tries and drop goals, we scored 5 tries, 4 from the backs.

So with that in mind your assertion that we didn't play attacking rugby is, with respect, flawed.

Ah so the number on the back denotes whether or not it's attacking. I see. Well, it's all opinions isn't it. What isn't an opinion are stats.

how much IRE kicked from hand (a lot)
How many times they passed (not a lot)
how many offloads they made (not a lot)
how many visits to the 22 (not a lot)

the stats show you had a remarkable first half and dominated possession and territory (in doing so scoring 2 tries starting from mauls) and then in the second half got dominated by possesion and territory but soaked up the pressure with a remarkable display of aggression and defence. Even more impressively you played the kicking game well and still put points on in the second half.

Offloads and passes are just one form of attack. We have a much more structure game plan than teams that offload a lot. That doesnt mean we dont attack. Stats also show that the ABs kick more than any other team in the world but are also considered one of the most attacking sides.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:12 pm

Well I think we are arguing over terminology here which is a bit silly really. But by that logic, any team that scores a lot of points put in an attacking performance? That doesn't make sense. No team goes out to not score a lot of points.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:16 pm

cascough wrote:Well I think we are arguing over terminology here which is a bit silly really. But by that logic, any team that scores a lot of points put in an attacking performance? That doesn't make sense. No team goes out to not score a lot of points.

Did you see the Ireland v France game in the six nations? Id say France went out with a very negative defensive mindset with a view to creating a low scoring game.

Ireland were very attacking v New Zealand. It isnt possible to score 40 points without being attack minded.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:19 pm

What's the point in having a coach if he ignores the opposition? The implication is that players play to the best of their ability in every game irrespective of who is playing on either side or weather conditions. The concept of tactics implies a plan dependent on opposition, rather than simply reacting to the last bounce of the ball.

NZ won't concede the lineout as they did in Chicago, as they will want to put Best under pressure. Rory must realise he is playing not only for Ireland but also for potential Lion's selection, (maybe Toner too). Dane Coles may not know the name of the guy wearing the green 2 shirt but he definitely won't want to be outplayed a second time, so this is the game where Gatland will see if he has any real contenders from Ireland as the ante has doubled.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:35 pm

The Great Aukster wrote: The concept of tactics implies a plan dependent on opposition, rather than simply reacting to the last bounce of the ball.


I believe NZ have a game plan that is the same regardless of who the opposition is.

In particular your reacting to the last bounce of the ball line, I believe this is exactly what NZ do. At least the structure and systems they have in place allow them to do exactly that.

I apologise if I've come over as antagonistic in any way, that wasn't my aim. I just think that perhaps you are overstating certain aspects of IRE's (glorious) victory. In particular how good your attacking game was and the effect that you may have had on NZ in the run up to this fixture.

As an ENG fan, I've no doubt many ENG fans did the same in the aftermath of the 2012 game, and perhaps they'll look back with a tad more realism now. Perhaps you might in a couple of years, or perhaps this might be the catalyst for a special period for IRE.

Picture this though, if you go on somewhat of a barren run and have trouble scoring tries over the next year, will you look back and go, "well where did it all go wrong? Our attack was looking so good". Or might you look back and think, "well actually if we analyse it, now that the euphoria has faded a little, we were actually very pragmatic and efficient".

There's no point asking now I suppose, I imagine the euphoria is still alive and well, and so it should be! But, food for thought.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:54 pm

The euphoria was kicked to the kerb a long time ago, cas.  This whole thread and others besides, including the Ireland V Canada one, are packed with 'food for thought'.

The game will be hard to win and I'd say it's pretty much expected it won't be a win for us.  But we'll still give it a go, I'm sure - no point in calling it off now with everybody already having their tickets bought Wink

I just think you over-do the Irish over-confidence bit.  We know the score, we've had the kick-backs more than most.


Last edited by SecretFly on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:54 pm

The Great Aukster wrote: Dane Coles may not know the name of the guy wearing the green 2 shirt but he definitely won't want to be outplayed a second time.

I find this interesting.

I contemplated putting this in a separate thread as I don't want to make it all about IRE but the context is in this one...

Do we really think that Dane Coles is wanting to outplay Rory Best? Or do we think that actually Dane Coles is thinking, well I just want to be the best I can be, it doesn't matter who is in the opposing shirt.

If Best has a shocker and puts in a 4/10 performance and Coles puts in a 5/10 performance, he has outplayed Best. So does he think that's good enough? Doubtful.

Are we actually saying then that DC wants to outplay RB unless RB isn't playing very well, and in that case DC will just focus on himself and be the best he can be? That seems rather silly. If that were the case DC would be better served by forgetting about RB from the outset and just being the best he can be?

What you suggest isn't a new thing. I'm sure we've all seen the Lions DVDs with Geech saying things like "you make sure your opposite number cannot live with you personally". But is that really the best attitude to instill in a player, or do we think it would be better to empower them by saying something like "if you play to your potential, no-one can live with you. Go out and play to your best"

I think the introspective nature of the second one makes more sense logically, and I think NZ do it better than anyone (hence why i don't think they care about IRE/Anyone - don't take it personally).

What do people think?

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:58 pm

cascough wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote: Dane Coles may not know the name of the guy wearing the green 2 shirt but he definitely won't want to be outplayed a second time.

I find this interesting.

I contemplated putting this in a separate thread as I don't want to make it all about IRE but the context is in this one...

Do we really think that Dane Coles is wanting to outplay Rory Best? Or do we think that actually Dane Coles is thinking, well I just want to be the best I can be, it doesn't matter who is in the opposing shirt.

If Best has a shocker and puts in a 4/10 performance and Coles puts in a 5/10 performance, he has outplayed Best. So does he think that's good enough? Doubtful.

Are we actually saying then that DC wants to outplay RB unless RB isn't playing very well, and in that case DC will just focus on himself and be the best he can be? That seems rather silly. If that were the case DC would be better served by forgetting about RB from the outset and just being the best he can be?

What you suggest isn't a new thing. I'm sure we've all seen the Lions DVDs with Geech saying things like "you make sure your opposite number cannot live with you personally". But is that really the best attitude to instill in a player, or do we think it would be better to empower them by saying something like "if you play to your potential, no-one can live with you. Go out and play to your best"

I think the introspective nature of the second one makes more sense logically, and I think NZ do it better than anyone (hence why i don't think the care about IRE/Anyone - don't take it personally).

What do people think?

From reading your posts I think you see the game as very simple and that's fair but its just not how the game is.

Different players have different levels so simply playing to your potential isn't enough, if the guy opposite you has a strength that negates yours you are simply burying your head in the sand if you think wishing hard enough will make you better

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 2:04 pm

Well I agree with that to a point. In the case of NZ though they are blessed with players where their best probably is enough! So maybe it was best I didn't start a new thread then. Surely Dane Coles (lauded by many as the best hooker in the world) will know/be told his best is good enough, so that is all he will focus on?

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 2:05 pm

I dont think every Kiwi player is necessarly focusing on their opposite number and worrying about what they will do. I have no doubt however, that the management will have looked at what Ireland players do well and what we dont do well and look at ways to exploit potential weaknesses or sure up potential threats.

For example Murray scored a nice try from a snipe at the ruck in the last match when he sold Smith a dummy. For the game tomorrow Aaron Smith will have been told to watch out for this and not make the same mistake again. The All Blacks are the best team in the world. Do you really think that they dont look at things like this?

They may be any number of things like this that the AB players have been told to work on or watch out for with reference to their opposite number. That doesnt mean that they cant also focus on their own game too.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 2:11 pm

I think that NZ are the best team in the world and will look at things like this every week, regardless of whether one was scored or not.

You're not suggesting that NZ prepared for the first game going, right aaron, when you come up, make sure you overrun cos we want you to put pressure on the first receiver. This week they are now saying, right, they sniped off a ruck, watch out for that this week.

Doubtful. More likely they will have wanted Smith to be mindful of that from the off, regardless of opposition. Theyre Proactive, not reactive.

Smith was garbage. He will be wanting to right that wrong, not outplay the Ireland 9. IMO.

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