England v Fiji, 19 November

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 7:08 pm

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England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 5 Englan10 England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 5 Fiji_r10
ENGLAND v FIJI
19 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on [Sky Sports 1]

Referee: Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Assistant referees: Paul Williams (New Zealand), Lloyd Linton (Scotland)
Television match official: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)
Assessor: Mark Lawrence (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

6 Played 6
6 Won 0
0 Drawn 0
0 Lost 6
245 Points 94

B. Recent Form

18 September 2015
England 35 - 11 Fiji
Twickenham

10 November 2012
England 54 - 12 Fiji
Twickenham

20 October 1999
England 45 - 24 Fiji
Twickenham

20 July 1991
Fiji 12 - 28 England
National Stadium, Suva

04 November 1989
England 58 - 23 Fiji
Twickenham

17 June 1988
Fiji 12 - 25 England
National Stadium, Suva

C. Teams

ENGLAND 
England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 5 Oak_tr10
A Goode; S Rokoduguni, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly; G Ford, B Youngs; M Vunipola, D Hartley, D Cole, J Launchbury, C Lawes, C Robshaw , T Harrison, B Vunipola.

Replacements: J George, J Marler, K Sinckler, C Ewels, N Hughes, D Care, B Te'o, H Slade.

FIJI
England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 5 Palm-t10
M Talebula; B Masilevu, A Tikoirotuma, A Vulivuli, N Nadolo; J Matavesi, S Vularika; C Ma'afu, S Koto Vuli, M Saulo, A Ratuniyarawa, L Nakarawa, D Waqaniburotu, P Yato, A Qera.

Replacements: T Talemaitoga, P Ravai, L Atalifo, N Soqeta, N Dawai, E Radrodro, N Matawalu, K Murimurivalu.


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Post by lostinwales on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:33 am

propdavid_london wrote:Yarde must have really F-up in training! May presumably is being eased back in as its still only a short time from injury.
I am not sure how much Daly has played on the wing before though - He isn't likely to be opposite Nadolo is he?

There is a lot of experimentation here - but for many of us its quite unexpected.  
Harrison is given another chance in all but a lower pressure game.  Slade and Teo coming on have the ability to completely change the way England play if needed.  
I fully expect the bench to have more time than last week.  

I would of thought that actually it would be easier to get positioning right to defend against Nadolo because you know what he's going to do. Actually stopping him is another matter.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:36 am

ENG players have named Roko as the "hardest" ENG player in one of those O2 inside line video things. I think Roko will run rings around him, especially in the second half. Nadolo is fat, he either needs to shape up or move into midfield in my opinion.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:38 am

I also totally didn't twig that Nadolo was one of the Kolpak players Exeter had trouble with all those years ago!

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:46 am

Thanks Beshocked - 3yrs is a fair difference. There is always the discussion that Watson will eventually shift to 15 too.

I am looking forward to this game - a few guys out of position helps you learn about the flexibility of your players. I am sure there are things going on in camp that we aren't aware of - perhaps niggles to some players that could do with a bit of a week off.

Its a chance for those fringers to impress and stake a claim for the following test against Argentina - while at the same time I like that EJ is keeping the core of the pack together and not underestimating any side.

I would hope that Daly has been well briefed - after May he probably has the most gas in the side, has played at 15 before so is probably a better fit on the wing than JJ would be. Rokko also doesn't have the greatest kicking game - so makes sense to have 2 15's back there with him to get us out of trouble if needed. (something that JJ or Yarde wouldn't have covered for).

Ford, Farrell, Daly and Brown all pinging the corners - playing territory. As EJ said - boring rugby, but well structured is the way to play the pacific islanders style of play. So when broken down - there is method in the madness.

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:48 am

lostinwales wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Yarde must have really F-up in training! May presumably is being eased back in as its still only a short time from injury.
I am not sure how much Daly has played on the wing before though - He isn't likely to be opposite Nadolo is he?

There is a lot of experimentation here - but for many of us its quite unexpected.  
Harrison is given another chance in all but a lower pressure game.  Slade and Teo coming on have the ability to completely change the way England play if needed.  
I fully expect the bench to have more time than last week.  

I would of thought that actually it would be easier to get positioning right to defend against Nadolo because you know what he's going to do. Actually stopping him is another matter.
Just get numbers infront of the guy - or stop him from ever seeing it but using fast line speed.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:49 am

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well once we pummel them up front and they get bored, we will start the fireworks in the backs.

Ill be VERY interested in Harrisons performance. He needs a massive game...but he could really put himself in a great position if he does!

It is certainly a huge opportunity to get up to speed for international level in a game that doesn't matter (but against some guys with serious beef and skills). Looking on the other side if he fails he could find it very hard to get back into the squad.

Absolutely...a substandard performance and he'll be right down the pecking order...and not likely to get back up sharp. Especially not with the likes of young Chisholm seemingly pulling up trees etc.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:53 am

propdavid_london wrote:
I am looking forward to this game - a few guys out of position helps you learn about the flexibility of your players.  I am sure there are things going on in camp that we aren't aware of - perhaps niggles to some players that could do with a bit of a week off.  


We always gushed over Australia's backs ability to simply flow...that the number on the back was simply a number and Giteau etc actually just slotted in any where as the play unfolded on the pitch.

Is this something he's having a cheeky look at...Daly can slot in to 13 at times or at Fb, JJ on the wing, Farrell can float to 10 etc...

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Post by beshocked on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:54 am

I know people have talked about moving Watson to FB but I would rather he focus on wing unless other wing contenders are really tearing up trees.

I am pleased to see Roko start. Think on his club form this season he's earned his chance. I've not really been a big fan of Yarde.

I would have liked to see a new inside centre but I guess with the fitness doubts to the likes of Brown, May and Daly that wasn't going to happen.

I agree with others that you can't make too many changes. I am still disappointed that there's only 1 change in the pack which seems to have been forced though.

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:54 am

Good test for Chisholm too - game away this Sunday at Tigers. I still cant see EJ drafting him into the squad at this late stage though.
Summer tour at best.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 10:59 am

beshocked wrote:I know people have talked about moving Watson to FB but I would rather he focus on wing unless other wing contenders are really tearing up trees.
.

Agree, I was one saying id like to see him move...but now I just want him to become a world class winger and stick there.

Agree, Roko has been excellent and deserves this chance. I think he'll have a very good game, probably get on the score sheet then be dropped again. ..

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:05 am

beshocked wrote:To be fair there are certain players who you'll never admit had a bad game. Ford and May spring to mind.

If you want to believe that Morgan's never been poor, well... okay..

I didn't watch the game vs SA but it was good to hear May scored a try. I want all players to play well for England. If May can change my perception of him then great.

I have to say I was impressed Youngs put his poor club form behind him to be man of the match. It does show that sometimes club form is not always the best indicator.

Shows the importance of exploiting a weakness in the opposition too.

Londontiger I hope Morgan signs for Tigers and I hope Cockerill can improve him as a player.

I've always thought that Tigers need to replace Crane. A rejuvenated Morgan could fill that role.

Well just put it in the box marked beshocked doesn't understand arguments or reason.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:07 am

Re: Yarde. Maybe also that he's a known quantity and although solid to pretty useful on the effectiveness scale he's not one of the first choices. Maybe its more about getting Daly more time on the pitch because he's seen as the future.

I do think that Daly is our most 'Australian' style back. I also wonder how much his place kicking could be developed. Might he be the answer at FB (or wherever) that covers kicking duties for Ford and allows us to start a proper 12 instead of Farrell?

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:09 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:To be fair there are certain players who you'll never admit had a bad game. Ford and May spring to mind.

If you want to believe that Morgan's never been poor, well... okay..

I didn't watch the game vs SA but it was good to hear May scored a try. I want all players to play well for England. If May can change my perception of him then great.

I have to say I was impressed Youngs put his poor club form behind him to be man of the match. It does show that sometimes club form is not always the best indicator.

Shows the importance of exploiting a weakness in the opposition too.

Londontiger I hope Morgan signs for Tigers and I hope Cockerill can improve him as a player.

I've always thought that Tigers need to replace Crane. A rejuvenated Morgan could fill that role.

Well just put it in the box marked beshocked doesn't understand arguments or reason.

I reached a moment of clarity this morning and used the 'foe' list. Makes these threads a lot easier to read.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:10 am

propdavid_london wrote:Good test for Chisholm too - game away this Sunday at Tigers.  I still cant see EJ drafting him into the squad at this late stage though.
Summer tour at best.

Barring further injury, I think you're right. But the Argentina tour will be a big opportunity for a number of players and I expect Baby Chis to be one of them. I hope Underhill might be another by that point.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:12 am

I don't like doing that lost. For a start I always end up unhiding each comment anyway!

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:13 am

cascough wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Well that just goes to show (again) you cant trust a word that Jones says!

I bet theyll be having a Kava party Friday morning instead.

??

I think he's made the tactical change he wanted in bringing in Goode but then it seems like injuries have forced him to make other changes he probably didn't want to, so he has then looked for continuity where possible? What are you seeing?

I meant that they didnt announce it Friday morning contrary to what was reported and that Id posted like a minute before the anouncement came out!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:14 am

Weather is supposed to be rain and wind tomorrow from what I saw this morning in the south. Given Yarde struggled with less rain last week may have swung it?

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:23 am

Daly can play wing?
Or, perhaps, do you gents think JJ and Daly may end up switching from time to time depending on the game situation or simply for more variation in attack? Or am I smoking something before going to work?

can Hughes last a full 80 against a running team?

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Post by Cyril on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:25 am

doctor_grey wrote:can Hughes last a full 80 against a running team?
Hughes is on the bench.

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:26 am

Cyril wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:can Hughes last a full 80 against a running team?
Hughes is on the bench.
I suppose that ends that discussion cold. Billy is cleared?

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Post by Cyril on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:30 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Cyril wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:can Hughes last a full 80 against a running team?
Hughes is on the bench.
I suppose that ends that discussion cold.  Billy is cleared?
Yep. Full squad is on the Beeb.

England: Goode, Rokoduguni, Joseph, Farrell, Daly, G Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Harrison, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Marler, Sinckler, Ewels, Hughes, Care, Te'o, Slade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38024218

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:34 am

Cyril wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Cyril wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:can Hughes last a full 80 against a running team?
Hughes is on the bench.
I suppose that ends that discussion cold.  Billy is cleared?
Yep. Full squad is on the Beeb.

England: Goode, Rokoduguni, Joseph, Farrell, Daly, G Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Harrison, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Marler, Sinckler, Ewels, Hughes, Care, Te'o, Slade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38024218
Thanks, I didn't look at the BBC yet this morn. It is only 6:30am here and just finished breakfast. Pretty much the same pack except for Harrison v. Wood. Interesting.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:36 am

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:To be fair there are certain players who you'll never admit had a bad game. Ford and May spring to mind.

If you want to believe that Morgan's never been poor, well... okay..

I didn't watch the game vs SA but it was good to hear May scored a try. I want all players to play well for England. If May can change my perception of him then great.

I have to say I was impressed Youngs put his poor club form behind him to be man of the match. It does show that sometimes club form is not always the best indicator.

Shows the importance of exploiting a weakness in the opposition too.

Londontiger I hope Morgan signs for Tigers and I hope Cockerill can improve him as a player.

I've always thought that Tigers need to replace Crane. A rejuvenated Morgan could fill that role.

Well just put it in the box marked beshocked doesn't understand arguments or reason.

I reached a moment of clarity this morning and used the 'foe' list. Makes these threads a lot easier to read.

Shame you feel that way lostinwales but life goes on. My oldest friend has cut ties with me permanently it seems but life goes on.

I can live with me on your foes list.

no 7 & 1/2 you think it's only you who gets tired of the same old arguments? I find it tiresome to hear that Morgan supposedly played well in the RWC when all evidence suggests to the contrary. I would rather be more positive about Morgan, hoping perhaps Leicester can redeem him. I'd much rather be praising players but if they don't play well.....

The England team has been picked for Fiji, I will wish them well.

Would be great if Daly becomes Mr super sub but surely if that happens his versatility could be his downfall? Becoming a jack of all trades like Healey or Hook?

Surely every player aspires to be first choice in one position?

Of course it's great to have players who can play great in more than one position but they are very rare.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:39 am

You find it tiresome to hear me say Moragn has never let England down ie played poorly, frequently being one of our better players on the pitch? Fair enough, we disagree again. I'll get over it.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:46 am

doctor_grey wrote:

can Hughes last a full 80 against a running team?

On a wet day when England are looking to pin them back and starve them of ball?
I hope so otherwise what is he doing in a test squad at all.

*shifty squint at Morgan*

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:48 am

We have to remember all these lads will have been put through all the paces in training. Jones and his team will be well aware of fitness levels etc...

If they are not fit enough they wont be selected.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You find it tiresome to hear me say Moragn has never let England down ie played poorly, frequently being one of our better players on the pitch? Fair enough, we disagree again. I'll get over it.

Well you think that Morgan didn't let down England in the RWC. He did! He was not good enough.

Anyway we are going around in circles again.

I'll call it now - I don't think Morgan is going to get back in the England side ever again. Bold call perhaps but with his re-signing for Gloucester I just don't see him getting the change he needs.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't like doing that lost. For a start I always end up unhiding each comment anyway!

I don't like it either tbh, and its not like the person in question never has anything interesting to say, but we have rerun exactly the same arguments too many times recently and its too much like home personally speaking I need a break.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:55 am

How was he not good enough just to tie this off? I have a feeling that you mean he was injured but I approach this with an open mind but no real appetite to listen to the same argument again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 11:56 am

Ha, trying at least not to argue the same things, but there's always new ones!

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Post by beshocked on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:We have to remember all these lads will have been put through all the paces in training. Jones and his team will be well aware of fitness levels etc...

If they are not fit enough they wont be selected.

Certainly does seem like the training regime is brutal. Does seem to be a high rate of injuries. I know it's not just down to Jones' training but when you take into account the England training and the European matches.....

Jones had a relatively intact squad when he took over too! That's one positive of the previous regime.

Is it too early to say it's last chance saloon for Harrison?

Let's not forget that some players have had one or two chances and that's it... look at Eastmond,Wade,Clark.

There's also been a lot of players whose international careers now seem to be over.

Will Wade ever have an England career?

no 7 & 1/2 we've gone over it too many times I agree. If you want to believe Morgan has never let England down then fine...

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:05 pm

beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:We have to remember all these lads will have been put through all the paces in training. Jones and his team will be well aware of fitness levels etc...

If they are not fit enough they wont be selected.

Certainly does seem like the training regime is brutal. Does seem to be a high rate of injuries. I know it's not just down to Jones' training but when you take into account the England training and the European matches.....

Jones had a relatively intact squad when he took over too! That's one positive of the previous regime.

Is it too early to say it's last chance saloon for Harrison?

Let's not forget that some players have had one or two chances and that's it... look at Eastmond,Wade,Clark.

There's also been a lot of players whose international careers now seem to be over.

Will Wade ever have an England career?

no 7 & 1/2 we've gone over it too many times I agree. If you want to believe Morgan has never let England down then fine...


Kinda headscratching that this brtaul training only started in August, prior to that hardly anyone was getting hurt.

Its almost as if thats not really a thing.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:17 pm

We've not gone over Morgan's performance at all but fair enough.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:28 pm

beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:We have to remember all these lads will have been put through all the paces in training. Jones and his team will be well aware of fitness levels etc...

If they are not fit enough they wont be selected.

Certainly does seem like the training regime is brutal. Does seem to be a high rate of injuries. I know it's not just down to Jones' training but when you take into account the England training and the European matches.....

Jones had a relatively intact squad when he took over too! That's one positive of the previous regime.

Is it too early to say it's last chance saloon for Harrison?

Let's not forget that some players have had one or two chances and that's it... look at Eastmond,Wade,Clark.

There's also been a lot of players whose international careers now seem to be over.

Will Wade ever have an England career?

no 7 & 1/2 we've gone over it too many times I agree. If you want to believe Morgan has never let England down then fine...

Yes and no. Yes for the immediate future, as should he fail to impress that will be twice and if he has high aspirations he needs to be performing against Fiji. However, long term no, he will be allowed to go away and work on things and maybe he will get another chance. But theres always other players coming through so it'll be harder. Again young Chisholm is a prime example.

Nope, sadly I don't believe Wade will ever have an England career.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:29 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:We have to remember all these lads will have been put through all the paces in training. Jones and his team will be well aware of fitness levels etc...

If they are not fit enough they wont be selected.

Certainly does seem like the training regime is brutal. Does seem to be a high rate of injuries. I know it's not just down to Jones' training but when you take into account the England training and the European matches.....

Jones had a relatively intact squad when he took over too! That's one positive of the previous regime.

Is it too early to say it's last chance saloon for Harrison?

Let's not forget that some players have had one or two chances and that's it... look at Eastmond,Wade,Clark.

There's also been a lot of players whose international careers now seem to be over.

Will Wade ever have an England career?

no 7 & 1/2 we've gone over it too many times I agree. If you want to believe Morgan has never let England down then fine...


Kinda headscratching that this brtaul training only started in August, prior to that hardly anyone was getting hurt.

Its almost as if thats not really a thing.

The current injuries that May,Billy v, Daly etc suffered occurred during the SA game according to EJs

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:34 pm

I don't mind Goode starting with Ford and Farrell. He's played for Saracens when Hodgson and Farrell have been paired, so it's not brand new territory.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:40 pm

Eddie was pretty clear before last week's game that he wanted to try Roko during the AIs but didn't think that South Africa was the right first game back for a player who has had confidence issues in the past. Fiji's a much better option.

Yarde is basically the guy he uses to handle other player's mental issues. Clearly Eddie feels he's robust enough to be brought in for a game and then dropped without losing heart, though I imagine he will have offered the carrot of competing with Roko for the other two games.
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Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:54 pm

Right if Goode doesn't excel this week and impress next week, then no amount of club form will ever make him a decent international and we can start work on Haley
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 12:58 pm

He should excel tomorrow. It's even going to be the weather and gameplan (set piece orientated) that should bring him very much to the fore.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:00 pm

Yep, it would be a massive failure if he did not. And then back it up against Argentina, where I think he should start
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:04 pm

Ha. Why do I feel you're not confident he'll be good?!

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:08 pm

I think he'll look pretty good against Fiji then offer nothing against Argentina whilst conceding a try
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Post by TrailApe on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:12 pm

I don't like doing that lost. For a start I always end up unhiding each comment anyway

yeah - then discovering afresh why you had them on ignore in the first place.


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Post by lostinwales on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:25 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think he'll look pretty good against Fiji then offer nothing against Argentina whilst conceding a try

Yep. Fiji are a team he should do very well against. One on one tackling may be an issue but then full backs don't often have to make too many tackles (although they have to make them). His kicking game should be very useful.

I don't think one good game against Fiji should dictate the future though.

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Post by BamBam on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:25 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think he'll look pretty good against Fiji then offer nothing against Argentina whilst conceding a try

+1

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:39 pm

I have no dislike for anyone who plays for any specific teams (aside from Sunderland) so I actually don't care who has the full back spot as long as they offer the best for the team.

If that happens to be Goode, for his playmaking side then so be it. I hope he is a success.

I suspect in the near future though it will be Haley and all arguments will be mute.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:50 pm

I would love Goode to prove me wrong!
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Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:51 pm

I would love Goode to prove me wrong!
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:57 pm

Goode has proved in the right set up he can be a hugely effective player. This current England set up is far more like the one Goode thrives in...maybe he will do so under Eddie.

We will see on Saturday.

But I will say like Harrison, and a couple of others, should they not excel against Fiji...or at least show real potential then its going to be difficult for them to get another shot.

More so Goode, despite 28 not being old....there are younger models like Haley and the young Wuss FB and even possibly Hammerlsey (if he can improve to the required level) who will move ahead very shortly.

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Post by cascough on Fri 18 Nov 2016, 1:59 pm

how old is Foden? I dearly wish he could recapture his 09-11 form.

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