England v Fiji, 19 November

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 14 Nov 2016, 7:08 pm

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England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 8 Englan10 England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 8 Fiji_r10
ENGLAND v FIJI
19 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on [Sky Sports 1]

Referee: Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Assistant referees: Paul Williams (New Zealand), Lloyd Linton (Scotland)
Television match official: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)
Assessor: Mark Lawrence (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

6 Played 6
6 Won 0
0 Drawn 0
0 Lost 6
245 Points 94

B. Recent Form

18 September 2015
England 35 - 11 Fiji
Twickenham

10 November 2012
England 54 - 12 Fiji
Twickenham

20 October 1999
England 45 - 24 Fiji
Twickenham

20 July 1991
Fiji 12 - 28 England
National Stadium, Suva

04 November 1989
England 58 - 23 Fiji
Twickenham

17 June 1988
Fiji 12 - 25 England
National Stadium, Suva

C. Teams

ENGLAND 
England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 8 Oak_tr10
A Goode; S Rokoduguni, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly; G Ford, B Youngs; M Vunipola, D Hartley, D Cole, J Launchbury, C Lawes, C Robshaw , T Harrison, B Vunipola.

Replacements: J George, J Marler, K Sinckler, C Ewels, N Hughes, D Care, B Te'o, H Slade.

FIJI
England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 8 Palm-t10
M Talebula; B Masilevu, A Tikoirotuma, A Vulivuli, N Nadolo; J Matavesi, S Vularika; C Ma'afu, S Koto Vuli, M Saulo, A Ratuniyarawa, L Nakarawa, D Waqaniburotu, P Yato, A Qera.

Replacements: T Talemaitoga, P Ravai, L Atalifo, N Soqeta, N Dawai, E Radrodro, N Matawalu, K Murimurivalu.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:12 am

Hartley and Vunipola missing a tackle, after Farrell had missed one and before Farrell missed another one yes. I would agree that Geoerge was slightly better over a shorter period of time against a tiring side. Don't think he was head and shoulders better though, which is what it will take for him to get a start in the next 2 games. I assume you also think Marler should be back to starting. What did you think of the missed lineout?

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Post by beshocked on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:17 am

Give George a proper chance for once. It's what I want to see.

It's a bad decision to put a player on a pedestal. Not the captaincy itself but starting Hartley in every single one of Jones' games yes.

I wouldn't start any player in every single game, no. That includes a Saracens player called Billy Vunipola.

Even if it's the captain.

Billy and Farrell didn't have their best games but then again Billy in particular has been outstanding for England, not merely solid.

What did you expect George to do in 24 minutes? Score a hattrick? Didn't see George miss a lineout though I did have one eye on the Italy game so might have missed it.Did he?


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:20 am

You mean start him vs Argentina or Aus? Just don't think he's really forcing Jones to play him at the moment, same personally as Marler isn't even if he were slightly better. You've got to consider players strengths coming from the bench as well as the other team possibly tires and you get more room. Vunipola was well below par for him on Saturday. What did you make of the missed lineout, you seem to be implying it was Hartley at fault?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:23 am

No don't think he did. I think he needed a stronger game than the solid one he put in even if better than Hartley.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:23 am

Mako has been better than merely solid too. Mako put in a lovely pass for a walk in for Goode.

You know it might have actually seemed like Billy needed a rest...

I think Hartley was solid, I guess a lot of people would say if it ain't broke and would argue there's no room for improvement but I think there is.

George had limited time. I wouldn't say any of the bench players had long enough. Still most looked good. It's difficult to expect a MOTM display with 20 odd minutes.

The best players were the starters like Launchbury,Daly and Roko IMO.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:29 am

I'm kind of doubting you watched the whole game. Not sure Billy was dropping high balls because he was tired and you seem to be picking out instances only from highlights rather than the whole game. What did you think went wrong with the missed lineout which I don't think was on the highlights package.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:32 am

I'll be honest I wasn't concentrating that hard to see every single detail and incident. I was eating food and drinking. Keeping an eye on the Italy and Japan games too.

Still enough to know Billy wasn't at his best.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:34 am

Ah. So you didn't see the missed lineout...or possibly anything that wasn't shown on the highlights. Fair enough.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:49 am

I watched the game on tv live, not highlights, if you don't believe me I don't care. No I didn't see the missed lineout was it in the first 10 minutes?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:51 am

Waht about Billy's drops. You see those? Care to describe them?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 12:41 pm

What surprised me was the lack of domination at scrum time. Fiji had Ma'afu at loose head who cannot get a start for Saints, but he handled Cole comfortably, if anything Fiji looked to have the stronger scrummage early on. Saulo, who I believe is an ex-Sarries tighthead seemed to have Mako in his pocket for the first couple. Granted they got it sorted after a few scrums, but I was expecting scrum dominance from the start.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 12:49 pm

Not surprising to me, Mako has never really been a force of nature in the scrum, he's not picked primarily for his scrummaging. I wouldn't say Cole has really been dominating either. There's just a lack of experience in his position, TH is an area, England does need someone pushing Cole.

Would be worse if T.Youngs was there....

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 1:05 pm

beshocked wrote:

Would be worse if T.Youngs was there....

Funny you should mention that because 4 years ago he made his debut in the same fixture with a near identical result, thanks to Lancaster trying to be ahead of the curve.

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Post by Poorfour on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 1:33 pm

From what I can see, Marler is still a better scrummager than Mako, but George is better than Hartley. Or perhaps it's just that Marler works better with Hartley than Mako does. Either way, as long as Hartley is captain, I can see Eddie reverting to Marler as a starter once he's caught up for the time lost over the summer.

Re: Hartley vs George, it seems to me that it's a question of captaincy. Hartley has the best win rate of any England captain with more than 10 games to his name, and there isn't an obvious successor. Who would you pick? Farrell? Launchbury? Billy? Itoje? Haskell? ... Robshaw? Until there's someone clearly ready to lead from the start of the game, Hartley's usefulness as a leader outweighs the (still fairly marginal) advantages that George offers as a player.

Elsewhere in the pack, Cole has looked surprisingly wobbly this autumn, and we haven't seen enough of Sinckler to form a good read - but he's not been obviously outclassed and has looked good in the loose. Of course he's got rough edges, he's had less than half a game of international rugby, but he doesn't look at all out of place.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 2:16 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

GF says he'd rather Daly were playing 15 at club level, fair enough. Must be remembered though that Farrell doesn't play 12 for Sarries, while Watson spends plenty of time at FB for Bath rather than on the wing. In the recent past, Australia used to be keen to get their best backs on the field rather than worry too much about who played where for their clubs. Obviously you have the counter points where it hasn't worked so well (Tuilagi, Brown on the wings, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named in the centre), but that may be more a question of skillset, and for me Daly has the skillset for FB. Would be interesting to see certainly.

I can see what you are saying and are right , however I would suggest that 10 and 12 (the role Farrell is being asked to play) aren't a huge difference likewise Wing and Fb for Watson.
But playing centre to full back does have different positional requirements etc. Daly has done it at times...but if he is to play there for England I would like to see him focus on that for his club.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 2:32 pm

beshocked wrote:Not surprising to me, Mako has never really been a force of nature in the scrum, he's not picked primarily for his scrummaging. I wouldn't say Cole has really been dominating either. There's just a lack of experience in his position, TH is an area, England does need someone pushing Cole.

Would be worse if T.Youngs was there....

Well Sinkler seems to be a force of nature this season and could come from behind Hill, Brookes etc etc to be the one who challenges Cole. Is there any coincidence he's being coached by Rowntree that we seem to be seeing the big improvements now??

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 2:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:

GF says he'd rather Daly were playing 15 at club level, fair enough. Must be remembered though that Farrell doesn't play 12 for Sarries, while Watson spends plenty of time at FB for Bath rather than on the wing. In the recent past, Australia used to be keen to get their best backs on the field rather than worry too much about who played where for their clubs. Obviously you have the counter points where it hasn't worked so well (Tuilagi, Brown on the wings, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named in the centre), but that may be more a question of skillset, and for me Daly has the skillset for FB. Would be interesting to see certainly.

I can see what you are saying and are right , however I would suggest that 10 and 12 (the role Farrell is being asked to play) aren't a huge difference likewise Wing and Fb for Watson.
But playing centre to full back does have different positional requirements etc. Daly has done it at times...but if he is to play there for England I would like to see him focus on that for his club.

Id also go back to the pre game talk about what makes Goode good....not the flashy stuff. Yes Daly might be a good runner from deep, but so were Balshaw and Monye. How good is Daly under the high ball? How strong is his tactiucal brain? How good is his terriorial kicking?
He might do the flash stuff well and full back might be a great place for him to do it from but is it that the entirity of what we want from the fullback?
Unless you end up with Nowell and Watson on the wings half covering that side of the job for him. But for me that would still lack a real specialist who does it day in day out and can tactiacaly boss a game from there.

So yeah whilst Im happy that Daly offers some in game cover for the position Id be reticent to start him there till hes a regular at club level and has trained with the england squad primarliy as a full back. The guy clealry has talent and all round good footballing skills, but does he have a fullbacks brain?

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 7:07 pm

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