Wales v Japan 19/11/16

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Post by wayne on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 10:06 am

Wales v Japan 19/11/16 Wales_10Wales v Japan 19/11/16 Japan110
WALES v JAPAN
19 November 2016
KO: 14:30
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Referee: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
Assistant referees: John Lacey (Ireland), Craig Maxwell-Keys (England)
Television match official: Eric Gauzins (France)
Assessor: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand)

Wales played 9 Won 8 Lost 1

Wales: Liam Williams; Halfpenny J Davies, Roberts, Cuthbert; Anscombe, Lloyd Williams; Smith, Baldwin, Lee, Hill, Alun Wyn Jones, Lydiate, Warburton (capt), King.

Replacements: Dacey, Gill, Andrews, Ball, Moriarty, G Davies, S Davies, Giles.

Japan: Matsushima, Yamada, Lafaele, Tatekawa, Fukuoka, Tamura, Tanaka; Nakatani, Horie, Hatakeyama, Kajikawa, Anise, Ilaua, Nunomaki, Mafi

Replacements: Hino, Yamamoto, Ito, Helu, Matsuhashi, Mimura, Uchida, Lotoahea

This is a potential banana skin game for us, IMO we cannot treat Japan with contempt and select a completely different team from last weekend, we should try to bed in a couple of alternatives to our first choices in crucial positions.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 11:16 am

I think, given the squad that is available, I would go for

Li Williams, Halfpenny, J. Davies, Roberts, Giles, S Davies, G Davies;
Jenkins (c), Baldwin, Francis, AWJ, B Davies, Lydiate, Warburton, King
(Owens, Smith, Lee, Ball, Moriarty; Ll Williams, Biggar, S Williams)

I think that would not be too weak a side to be seen as disrespectful whilst offering some either a last of redemption or a chance to prove that they can make a position their own.
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Post by wayne on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 11:41 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I think, given the squad that is available, I would go for

Li Williams, Halfpenny, J. Davies, Roberts, Giles, S Davies, G Davies;
Jenkins (c), Baldwin, Francis, AWJ, B Davies, Lydiate, Warburton, King
(Owens, Smith, Lee, Ball, Moriarty; Ll Williams, Biggar, S Williams)

I think that would not be too weak a side to be seen as disrespectful whilst offering some either a last of redemption or a chance to prove that they can make a position their own.

SS, I can't see Gethin making it, as Howley said after the match that some of the 30s would be rested, from what I can see only Gethin, AWJ and Charteris fall into that bracket, you could be right in that AWJ stays in instead of Luke, I don't think he will rest both. I also wouldn't reunite Roberts and JD2, we have to give the partnership of Scott and JD2 at this level a decent run together.

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Post by Guest on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 11:49 am

Wayne - I like you team but would not have Cuthbert on the wing. The whole idea for me is to try someone else because Cuthbert is the problem. I don't go in for this trying to play players back in to form. It's never worked for Cuthbert before! I actually think it's a little unfair on him.

Mine (as posted elsewhere) would be something like:

L Williams
Halfpenny
JD2
S Williams
Giles
Anscombe
Gareth Davies/the new Cardiff boy. Not overly keen on Lloyd W
Moriaty
Tips
Warbs (maybe King, buy then Warbs to 7 over Tips)
Davies
Charteris
N Smith
Baldwin
Lee

So a bit of an amalgamation of your two.

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Post by wayne on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 12:39 pm

Griff wrote:Wayne - I like you team but would not have Cuthbert on the wing.  The whole idea for me is to try someone else because Cuthbert is the problem.  I don't go in for this trying to play players back in to form.  It's never worked for Cuthbert before! I actually think it's a little unfair on him.

Mine (as posted elsewhere) would be something like:

L Williams
Halfpenny
JD2
S Williams
Giles
Anscombe
Gareth Davies/the new Cardiff boy.  Not overly keen on Lloyd W
Moriaty
Tips
Warbs (maybe King, buy then Warbs to 7 over Tips)
Davies
Charteris
N Smith
Baldwin
Lee

So a bit of an amalgamation of your two.
Griff, I'm sort of torn between Cuthbert and Halfpenny, I really don't want Cuthbert, but I can't see Howley picking Liam at full back and Halfpenny on the wing as that is what I would ideally have. I'm sort of picking half my team and half Howley, if that makes any sense, which I suppose I'm not

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Post by munkian on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 12:54 pm

I think we need North playing so he can run in some tries and get some confidence back. He was much better in defense last game though.
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Post by Guest on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 12:59 pm

Munkian, I'm not sure how I forgot about him! Doh!

Yep, I would start North. Although that means dropping 1/2p which might not go down too well in some quarters. However, we shouldn't look at it as 'dropping'. We're trying to experiment to develop depth.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 1:02 pm

munkian wrote:I think we need North playing so he can run in some tries and get some confidence back. He was much better in defense last game though.

Ooo. Careful there! Don;t go taking japan lightly!
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Post by Guest on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 1:08 pm

tigertattie wrote:
munkian wrote:I think we need North playing so he can run in some tries and get some confidence back. He was much better in defense last game though.

Ooo. Careful there! Don;t go taking japan lightly!

We've lost to them in the recent past so no chance of that. Hence why we've named quite experienced sides (on here) rather than a development team Smile

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Post by munkian on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 1:16 pm

Exactly.
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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 2:25 pm

Play a weakened team and Japan will win.
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Post by munkian on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 3:13 pm

I don't think anyone has suggested playing a weakened team
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Post by George Carlin on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 3:24 pm

Surely there is a young prop that deserves a shot here rather than Grandpappy Jenkins?
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Post by wayne on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 3:30 pm

George Carlin wrote:Surely there is a young prop that deserves a shot here rather than Grandpappy Jenkins?
Take it from me George Nicky Smith will be playing.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 3:55 pm

munkian wrote:I don't think anyone has suggested playing a weakened team

Someone better tell Rob.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 4:54 pm

I'm back to how I felt before the Argentina game: part of me wants Wales to lose. There's such a horrible complacency about the whole Team Wales setup that I struggle to get excited about us playing these days.

That might say more about me that about the national side, I don't know.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 5:11 pm

If all are available and fit I'd go for:-

Smith Baldwin Francis
Ball Davies
Lydiate Baker Warburton

Davies Davies
Cuthbert Sc Williams JD Halfpenny

Li WIlliams

Bench - Gill Dacey Lee Thornton Faletau Ll Williams Anscombe Gilles
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Post by munkian on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 5:13 pm

I'd reward North with another start
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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 5:57 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm back to how I felt before the Argentina game: part of me wants Wales to lose. There's such a horrible complacency about the whole Team Wales setup that I struggle to get excited about us playing these days.

That might say more about me that about the national side, I don't know.

I have to say I'm similar. I watched the last two games on tv with my Dad. He was animated and shouuting at the ref etc, and I was sitting there thinking, 'we are offside there', 'we went straight to the ground there' etc etc. its almost like someone has taken my rise tinted glasses away and replaced them with poop-tinted glasses when t come to team Wales.
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Post by Guest on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 6:00 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:If all are available and fit I'd go for:-

Smith Baldwin Francis
Ball Davies
Lydiate Baker Warburton

Davies  Davies
Cuthbert Sc Williams JD Halfpenny

Li WIlliams

Bench - Gill Dacey Lee Thornton Faletau Ll Williams Anscombe Gilles

That team is too full of out of form or novice international players for my liking mainly in the forwards)! I just think that has car crash written all over it!
A brand new front row not used to playing together; a new 2nd row partnership and Ball who hasn't been in the Wales team for donkeys; Lydiate out of form; Baker brand new; Warbs just back from injury.

The backs actually look OK as there are some old heads to help Sam Davies. But I wouldn't pick Cuthbert. Ever!

But that's just my opinion Bedford, so obviously not saying you're wrong! Hug

With the exception of Baker, Smith, Francis and Davies who are the novices? Admittedly there some coming back from injury like Ball (so maybe Thornton deserves a start) and Lydiate (rather him than King there anyday) but Baldwin has 26 caps Ball has 20 then Davies Lydiate and Warburton have over 50 odd caps.

As for Cuthbert I'd rather start him than Gilles currently, give Gilles some time off the bench if the game is going well.

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Post by wayne on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 6:10 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:If all are available and fit I'd go for:-

Smith Baldwin Francis
Ball Davies
Lydiate Baker Warburton

Davies  Davies
Cuthbert Sc Williams JD Halfpenny

Li WIlliams

Bench - Gill Dacey Lee Thornton Faletau Ll Williams Anscombe Gilles

BW, I can see what you have in your first sentence but Faletau has gone back to Bath for this weekend

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Post by majesticimperialman on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 6:14 pm

Since Halfpenny as been back the in Welsh team he as taken over the kicking duties.

Surely this will dent Biggars confidence if he as to take over from Halfpenny. I know it should not do this, but is Halfpenny a better kicker than Biggar?

Peresanaly i think Biggar is a better kicker. But then that is just me. right?

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 8:37 pm

wayne wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:If all are available and fit I'd go for:-

Smith Baldwin Francis
Ball Davies
Lydiate Baker Warburton

Davies  Davies
Cuthbert Sc Williams JD Halfpenny

Li WIlliams

Bench - Gill Dacey Lee Thornton Faletau Ll Williams Anscombe Gilles

BW, I can see what you have in your first sentence but Faletau has gone back to Bath for this weekend

Wayne,

Has that been confirmed yet?  I had heard he was going to get some game time but also that he was still in camp. If he gets any sort of game time this weekend then I'm pretty sure we'll see him against the Boks next week.
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Post by wayne on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 9:04 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
wayne wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:If all are available and fit I'd go for:-

Smith Baldwin Francis
Ball Davies
Lydiate Baker Warburton

Davies  Davies
Cuthbert Sc Williams JD Halfpenny

Li WIlliams

Bench - Gill Dacey Lee Thornton Faletau Ll Williams Anscombe Gilles

BW, I can see what you have in your first sentence but Faletau has gone back to Bath for this weekend

Wayne,

Has that been confirmed yet?  I had heard he was going to get some game time but also that he was still in camp.  If he gets any sort of game time this weekend then I'm pretty sure we'll see him against the Boks next week.

Yes he's gone for this weekend, and will be back in camp on Monday BW, there is an article on the BBC website where Todd Blackadder has said it is a win win for Bath and Wales. He'll probably be in for the SA game as you say.

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Post by Guest on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 9:46 pm

Griff wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:If all are available and fit I'd go for:-

Smith Baldwin Francis
Ball Davies
Lydiate Baker Warburton

Davies  Davies
Cuthbert Sc Williams JD Halfpenny

Li WIlliams

Bench - Gill Dacey Lee Thornton Faletau Ll Williams Anscombe Gilles

That team is too full of out of form or novice international players for my liking mainly in the forwards)! I just think that has car crash written all over it!
A brand new front row not used to playing together; a new 2nd row partnership and Ball who hasn't been in the Wales team for donkeys; Lydiate out of form; Baker brand new; Warbs just back from injury.

The backs actually look OK as there are some old heads to help Sam Davies. But I wouldn't pick Cuthbert. Ever!

But that's just my opinion Bedford, so obviously not saying you're wrong! Hug

With the exception of Baker, Smith, Francis and Davies who are the novices?  Admittedly there some coming back from injury like Ball (so maybe Thornton deserves a start) and Lydiate (rather him than King there anyday) but Baldwin has 26 caps Ball has 20 then Davies Lydiate and Warburton have over 50 odd caps.

As for Cuthbert I'd rather start him than Gilles currently, give Gilles some time off the bench if the game is going well.

Ummm, I didn't post that last two paragraphs but it says that this is my post. Did someone miss quote or something. Was it you Bedford?!

In answer to the mystery poster: I did say out of form and novices, and then I did say the backs looked good. So mainly the pack was my issue. So nearly half of the pack are novices, I agree with Baldwin's inclusion though, Ball has not been involved at this level for a long time and not playing well enough to warrant an international call up (just my opinion), Lydiate I don't think is in form either, Warbs is just coming back and only played 2 games recently.

For me it is the combo of out of form and novices. I personally think we go for either or, not both together.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 10:17 pm

Are the England based players available?

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Post by Guest on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 10:19 pm

Not sure Mikey. There's rumours that some were released for Aus in exchange for returning to clubs for this weekend but nothing's been said in the press as far as I know.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 10:24 pm

We need as close a team to the one for Arg as possible. I'd rest Gethin and Charteris up front but that's about it. I also reckon Hill, Cory Allen, Dacey, Anscombe and maybe Giles should get a bit of game time in this one. Lydiate and Roberts out of the squad too and I wouldn't want them back in for SA either.

All I can call so far is the front row with replacements.
Smith, Baldwin, Francis to start with Dacey, James and Lee each to come on and play at some point.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 10:25 pm

Griff wrote:Not sure Mikey. There's rumours that some were released for Aus in exchange for returning to clubs for this weekend but nothing's been said in the press as far as I know.

Yeah I heard too, which is why I asked. Great for consistency if they're available though.

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Post by wayne on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 9:30 am

mikey_dragon wrote:We need as close a team to the one for Arg as possible. I'd rest Gethin and Charteris up front but that's about it. I also reckon Hill, Cory Allen, Dacey, Anscombe and maybe Giles should get a bit of game time in this one. Lydiate and Roberts out of the squad too and I wouldn't want them back in for SA either.

All I can call so far is the front row with replacements.
Smith, Baldwin, Francis to start with Dacey, James and Lee each to come on and play at some point.

Mikey the 3rd loosehead is Rhys Gill not Paul James

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 10:43 am

I don't think we can afford make too many changes. I don't think we're good enough. The more changes we make, the more disruptive it'll be, and we didn't look that coherent / well drilled against Argentina. You can guarantee Japan will be well drilled.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 1:50 pm

I've just heard that it is a severely changed team from he Argentina fixture. BIG mistake if true.
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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 2:11 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I've just heard that it is a severely changed team from he Argentina fixture. BIG mistake if true.

Come on even the biggest trolls couldnt be seriously suggesting that Japan could be Wales at rugby? That would be ridiculous.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 2:26 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I've just heard that it is a severely changed team from he Argentina fixture. BIG mistake if true.

Come on even the biggest trolls couldnt be seriously suggesting that Japan could be Wales at rugby? That would be ridiculous.

Who would want to be Wales? apart from the Scots of course. Whistle
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Post by munkian on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 2:27 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I've just heard that it is a severely changed team from he Argentina fixture. BIG mistake if true.

Depends how its changed - I'd certainly make a few changes.

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Post by munkian on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 2:27 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I've just heard that it is a severely changed team from he Argentina fixture. BIG mistake if true.

Come on even the biggest trolls couldnt be seriously suggesting that Japan could be Wales at rugby? That would be ridiculous.

Don't feed the winkie, its only more stroke material for his bank.
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 5:55 pm

If it is hugely changed and we lose then Howley deserves every bit of criticism aimed at him for being so f ing stupid to think we are that good to do it.

We've all suggested various changes and most would still be good enough if the balance of changes and consistency is right but to just chuck a team together is asking for trouble.
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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 7:44 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Are the England based players available?

Look forward to this question never having to be asked in the future, even if there are Welshies doing their thing across the border.
Also, I wonder if English supporters ever asked if John Scot was available to play for their country? Probably not.

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Post by George Carlin on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 7:49 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I've just heard that it is a severely changed team from he Argentina fixture. BIG mistake if true.

Come on even the biggest trolls couldnt be seriously suggesting that Japan could be Wales at rugby? That would be ridiculous.

Who would want to be Wales? apart from the Scots of course. Whistle
Not at tennis. Cool
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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 8:03 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I've just heard that it is a severely changed team from he Argentina fixture. BIG mistake if true.

Coaching team trying different combos then maybe?
Good way of avoiding the bigger picture possibly.
Win or lose at least they had a bash, learnt lessons, not the finished article, look forward to next game, 6Ns, World Cup, nice legs, nice beard, star at the bar, strictly the best ref in the world, everybody applaud very noisily, blah-di-blah, etc.

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Post by miaow on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 8:05 pm

George Carlin wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I've just heard that it is a severely changed team from he Argentina fixture. BIG mistake if true.

Come on even the biggest trolls couldnt be seriously suggesting that Japan could be Wales at rugby? That would be ridiculous.

Who would want to be Wales? apart from the Scots of course. Whistle
Not at tennis. Cool

Don't know of any half decent Scottish tennis players, only British ones...?

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Post by miaow on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 8:20 pm

In terms of changes, as many have already said, it depends on combos. For instance, if Wales want to play Giles, if they treat him as someone ready (why put him in the squad if not?) to play against the weakest international team we'll face for a while, then I'd say you keep the rest of the three quarters the same, and Scott Williams too. You need continuity. Have Halfpenny at 15, Liam Williams on the wing. You could probably tinker with the outside half. I'd see no problem starting Sam Davies or Anscombe. If you bring Giles off the bench, then perhaps you can play about a bit more: as mentioned above, North needs game time, to finish what was cut short in NZ and actually start performing well for Wales. You could probably mix it up elsewhere, though I don't really see any outstanding candidates knocking on the door in the backline, demanding a start. The centre partnership needs to be given time too.

In the pack, Francis put in comfortably his best game for Wales against Argentina. He deserves to keep his place, and barring a poor performance, start against SA too. It's the first time he's replicated his scrummaging form for Exeter in a Welsh shirt. Definitely a positive, and apparently he played the full 80, which is mightily impressive when conditioning seemed to be a major pitfall for him in the past. Rotate the hooker and loosehead. Second rows have gone well, but equally probably give Charteris a place on the bench if/when our lineout goes to pot in his absence and Baldwin's throwing. AWJ to be given another run out, and either Davies or Ball are more than competent to come in. The back row is the key selection issue. Where do you go? Do you look for something exciting, something mobile, perhaps keeping the same unit from the Argentina game, Moriarty at 8, Warburton 6, Tipuric 7? I'd be tempted to. Who do you rest? Baker in at 8? King in at 6? Warburton back to 7? Even a return for Lydiate!? I'd perhaps make one change, and I don't really mind where, though I'd like Tipuric to keep his place, as this kind of game should be where his footballing skills shine, which could be integral if we can't get the game flowing quickly enough.  

I concur with the sentiments that watching Wales is dreadful at the moment. It's as bad as I can remember for some time, in part because expectations have (legitimately) been raised to the point that we should be producing better than this. Even during Gareth Jenkins' tenure there was a hectic, exciting element to the diabolical rugby we played at times. This is something more symptomatic: it's a slower, gradual death, that's gone unseen and accepted for a while whilst the 'big stage' games top up the "everything's alright" comfort blanket, keeping Warren Gatland in the All Blacks' shop window.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 9:07 pm

Was Australian 2 weeks ago. I'm now turning Japanese.

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Post by miaow on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 9:29 pm

That seems strange. Would never hope for a Welsh defeat. There's literally no sign that anything positive would come from it.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 9:39 pm

It probably won't happen. But. If Wales wan't to rest ( any player.) They could a ways rest Gethin Jenkins.

From being Wales most capped prop, and get him playing at Fly half. After all that chip over the top to the corner was first class.

Don't tend to see that from the likes of Biggar/Priestland any more.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 10:22 pm

miaow wrote:That seems strange. Would never hope for a Welsh defeat. There's literally no sign that anything positive would come from it.

Very true.
Bit like proper voting and all that, isn't it. Just seems to gets worse for the plebs whatever you do.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 11:23 am

Wales: Liam Williams; Leigh Halfpenny Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Alex Cuthbert; Gareth Anscombe, Lloyd Williams; Nicky Smith, Scott Baldwin, Samson Lee, Cory Hill, Alun Wyn Jones, Dan Lydiate, Sam Warburton (capt), James King.

Replacements: Kristian Dacey, Rhys Gill, Scott Andrews, Jake Ball, Ross Moriarty, Gareth Davies, Sam Davies, Keelan Giles

Just the ten changes, then. Rolling Eyes

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Post by munkian on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 11:26 am

Still not a weak squad though by any means, just a bit of rotation and just 2 new caps on the bench .

Annoyed that Roberts is back, would liked to have seen SW and JD again plus Lydiate is a little pointless.

Glad to see Sanjay at 15 though. Not sure why Cuthbert is anywhere near the 23 though.
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Post by chris_501 on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 11:43 am

In the nicest possible way, I really hope Scott Williams is injured as he deserves the rest of the AIs in the 12 shirt. I have a feeling that Roberts will smash through a few tackles, look good and be given the position for the next 10 games, regardless.

Also not keen on Cuthbert and Lydiate. Get Giles into the XV and keep Tipuric in the back row.

But the fact that Williams has been moved to 15 suggests that Howley isn't quite as stubborn as Gatland is.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 11:52 am

I like this bit:

Rob Howley: "Leigh has done well at full-back but we are giving an opportunity to Liam...and we want to have a look at what this option gives us."

The world and his wife knows what this option gives us!

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