PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

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PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 3:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).That's where we are this week, for the second week running after Mayakoba's beachside beauty - which is no way to describe winner Pat Perez. Quite the return from injury for Perez, long regarded as one of the Tour's premier "ball strikers" - if he was anywhere close as good between the ears as he is with his irons, he'd win five times a year, said Johnny Miller, or words to that effect anyway. Almost a shame he won as his combustible self-destruction act is quite something to behold.
And he's the third Mayakoba winner in a row to break a victory drought following Charley Hoffman and Graeme McDowell.

2).We travel this week to the Golden Isles of Georgia and the two courses that make up the venue for the RSM (formerly McGladrey) Classic. 18 holes each at the Plantation Course and Seaside Course, then 36 weekend holes at Seaside - a Harry Colt design originally, and a beautiful setting which will be graced by equally beautiful weather. These "Isles" are popular destinations for Tour players to live and practice, led by Davis Love and joined by Kuchar, Zach Johnson and several others.

3).A lot has happened in the past ten days. Obviously.
We all know the Ugly (not to say vulgar, racist, misogynistic, isolationist) which evolved into the Bad (very bad, tremendously bad), and was roundly welcomed by Pros from all US Tours and broadcast booths.
But there's been some good as well, in the world of Golf at least.

4).With impeccable timing, the Rolex Series for the European Tour was introduced, with the promise of at least one more tournament (France?) to be added to the seven already announced. Not sure we know all the details yet, and the ramifications for PGA Tour members (including South Africans) have yet to be established, but this can't be anything other than terrific news for the E.T.

5).Don't know whether this is good or what, but the reformatting of the Zurich Classic in New Orleans next April seems to beg more questions than it answers, not least any rationale surrounding owgr points (it seems none will be awarded) and how they're going to fill the field. And at a venue, New Orleans, that often experiences an untimely monsoon season to coincide with the tournament, how are they going to manage 160 golfers playing four-balls on the Friday?

6).Meanwhile, the LPGA seems interested in acquiring the Ladies European Tour and using it as feeder for its own Tour. Not sure how that will go down.

7).More positive news for European Seniors is that its new "Head" man, Dave McLaren, is laying out plans to increase the number of tournaments and raise prize money, hopefully within a couple of years. Don't expect Europe's Seniors to reach the kind of wealth that Bernhard Langer has achieved on the Champions Tour (almost $21M and counting), but anything to achieve stability would be welcomed. Meanwhile, the likes of Barry Lane and Van der Velde are competing here in Champions Tour Q-School (both leading in their respective venues after Round 1), hoping to join the likes of Langer, Montgomerie, Mechanic, Broadhurst, Woosie, Lyle and, when he feels fit to compete, Olazabal.

8).This time last year, Graeme McDowell travelled to the Seaside with a Mayakoba win under his belt and proceeded to finish third. Strange, then, that's he's not in this week's field, especially disappointing after three superb rounds last week. Luke Donald will be playing, trying to emerge from the wreckage of his career - a couple of runner-up finishes last year but nothing to suggest he'll be back at the top anytime soon. But these courses might suit him.

9).It's a sad commentary on the state of Australian Golf that last year's Aussie Open Champ, Matt Jones, is playing the RSM/McGladrey rather than defending his title. Admittedly he needs all the starts he can get after mysteriously taking last season just easy enough that he narrowly lost his card, but really . . . . . . . .

10).No PGA Tour action next week, even though Thanksgiving has been postponed in most US homes for four years. There IS a World Cup in Australia, plus Champions Tour and web.com Q-Schools in the next three weeks, but the Ballwasher is pretty clogged up with fallen leaves and season-ending debris, so only sporadic musings until January. Merry Christmas!

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Sun 25 Dec 2016, 12:48 pm

Super - For the last 10 years or so I've been involved with a group of golfers from the UK. Around 4 - 6 a side and we play in the US or UK (and Ireland) alternating years. We are generally from 5 - 20 handicaps. Our experience is that we are pretty equally handicapped.

Also, why would posting two 9 hole scores provide you with a lower handicap as compared to posting only 18 hole scores? (Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly.)

Finally, I have never played golf with Donald Trump, but I have played golf with others that have. A number of years ago I was told he was an 8 at one club (not his club, but one he was/is a a member of). The member who played with him told me he was closer to an 18 than an 8.

Merry Christmas all!!

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon 26 Dec 2016, 9:16 am

Shotrock wrote:Super - For the last 10 years or so I've been involved with a group of golfers from the UK. Around 4 - 6 a side and we play in the US or UK (and Ireland) alternating years. We are generally from 5 - 20 handicaps. Our experience is that we are pretty equally handicapped.

Also, why would posting two 9 hole scores provide you with a lower handicap as compared to posting only 18 hole scores? (Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly.)

Finally, I have never played golf with Donald Trump, but I have played golf with others that have. A number of years ago I was told he was an 8 at one club (not his club, but one he was/is a a member of). The member who played with him told me he was closer to an 18 than an 8.

Merry Christmas all!!

Ok, fair enough, I was basing it on my experience of playing with American tourists at St. Andrews when I've never met any who are as good as their handicap would suggest, especially at the lower end, although I think as your handicap gets higher, it perhaps spreads out a bit more evenly.
I met some truly great personalities there this year from America, even a bible thumping Pastor (top bloke) who could really play and another pro with a links ticket from Chicago, I'd much rather play with American tourists, than a lot of the locals.

The reason I was scathing of putting in 2 nine hole scores was that you don't get tired and so your score won't drop off the way it might throughout 18 holes, and you can decide to go off if the weather takes a turn for the worse and just hand in your 9 holes. If only playing 9, you can also choose which of the 9's you play. If you choose to play the easier 9, it's obvious how this could impact scores.

Agree about Trump though, no way a fat 70 year old man could play off 3 genuinely.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by puligny on Mon 26 Dec 2016, 4:32 pm

Shotrock - merry Xmas. I'm interested in the handicap discussion for a couple of reasons, not least of which is that we are slated to change to the US system at some point in the future, unless an alternative worldwide system can be found.
On behalf of a few chaps at my home club I got involved (all very friendly) with some back and forth with a US based journalist. This was just after changes to the US handicap system had been announced, including the item which got him hot under the collar - from March this year it would no longer be possible to play a round on your own and submit the score for handicap purposes!
I will cut a very long story short - he offered a distinct difference between UK and US handicap system, and he defined the difference, based on stats I have subsequently binned. US system based on potential - UK system based on performance? This he reckoned led to a difference of approximately 3 shots in representative handicaps - i.e. If I'm off 4 in Uk I would play off 1 in US? It is certainly true that when UK players go to Europe (essentially US handicap system) to play in Seniors events we are instantly docked 2.8 from our exact handicaps. I've had similar issues in Australia which now operates the US system.
Now I'm neither for or against any of this, just wish we had the same system/rules.
As Super says basing handicap on bounce games is totally alien to us, but he is equally way off the mark when he says no fat 70 year old could play off 3. I can introduce him to plenty off 3 and better!!

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Davie on Mon 26 Dec 2016, 7:48 pm

puligny wrote:US system based on potential - UK system based on performance?

I can't speak for the US system having never played under it but I'd say the UK system is certainly based more on potential than performance

Two reasons I say that: one is when you compete for your initial handicap if you haven't had a handicap before. 3 cards required, but the best one counts (not the average) - and with stableford adjustment to a medal card, that can end up as definitely a handicap more applicable to potential rather than performance

Once a handicap is achieved, I think the general rule is that you should only play a certain number of times better than your handicap in a year. I've seen different numbers quoted but it's generally 3 or 4 times a year. But that one time you play much better than your handicap you get crucified (sorry for religious reference) and all the times you play fractionally better than handicap, it comes down far quicker that it creeps up during bad spells.

That to me spells potential over performance. Perhaps it's more noticable in the higher handicap ranges than the lower ones though.

Having said all that, I think it is generally applicable but not necessarily to me this year! Before we get any comments from the cheap seats, I'm convinced my handicap should be 3 or 4 shots lower than it is. I am obviously (as often happens) the exception to the rule. Despite my arguments above, I'd say I actually prove your point!

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 26 Dec 2016, 8:52 pm

Confirmation of what all VC606 followers already knew that Billy Payne is sending Masters invitations out to a dozen golfers not previously qualified for his Invitational in April. All in via the owgr Top 50:
Noren*
Hatton*
Oosthuizen
R C-Bello
Molinari
Ikeda
Wood
Weisberger
Haas
Sullivan
Ben An
Pieters*

*Indicates first timers.

Plenty more time to qualify for Thongchai and the rest: US wins, Top 50 in the owgr's by the end of March-ish, and Special Invitations for Ishikawa, etc.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue 27 Dec 2016, 8:24 am

Isn't it about time they expanded The Masters field?

I can't see any reason this isn't a full event.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by I'm never wrong on Tue 27 Dec 2016, 9:13 am

super_realist wrote:Isn't it about time they expanded The Masters field?

I can't see any reason this isn't a full event.
Their competition, their rules. If you had the same entry requirements for every Major and WGC then what's the difference?

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by puligny on Tue 27 Dec 2016, 10:20 am

INW - they would all be tournaments of the same status, a bit like tennis grand slam events. I would much prefer that, but then I wish the golf authorities would find a way of giving that status to Aussie Open and French, and maybe one or two others.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by puligny on Tue 27 Dec 2016, 10:34 am

Davie - all the analysis I've seen suggests that golfers play to their handicap about 25% of the time, not 3 or 4 times a year. The suggestion is that the lower the handicap the more frequently the golfer should be in their buffer, hence the sliding scale of buffer zones.
The chap I was in contact with reckoned the UK system was more focussed on performance because of the competition requirement (supplementaries aside maybe) whereas the US system is an averaging over time, and taking account of different types of rounds.
Further he suggested the US system was more prone, or certainly open, to vanity handicaps as it is self reported and would require a challenge without evidence from a playing partner as cards are not retained.
From what I've seen the US system, as used in Oz and NZ can be much stricter than the UK, but generally I reckon the U.K. system is regarded as tighter. Have my doubts personally, if only based on the limited number of scores required to maintain a handicap.
I'm not suggesting either is better, but I do wish we had a standard system. For us getting used to the US system would be a challenge, and vice versa.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 27 Dec 2016, 10:48 am

UK system is rubbish compared to the system used in the rest of the world. As usual Britain came up with the idea in the first place then people overseas went and improved it. You can say this about the handicap system but apply it to anything else eg the London underground.

UK system only works on your home course and does not transfer properly when you play other courses.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue 27 Dec 2016, 11:58 am

raycastleunited wrote:UK system is rubbish compared to the system used in the rest of the world. As usual Britain came up with the idea in the first place then people overseas went and improved it. You can say this about the handicap system but apply it to anything else eg the London underground.

UK system only works on your home course and does not transfer properly when you play other courses.

Eh? How does it not work elsewhere? You have a CSS, a SSS and often in away competitions a Home and Away CSS. How doesn't that transfer?

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Tue 27 Dec 2016, 11:59 am

This explains a lot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_(golf)

Most golfers I play and compete with (fairly frequently) don't care about those with vanity handicaps (unless it's your playing partner for team events!), but are concerned a lot more for the sandbaggers.

At our club we follow the USGA norm (10 of your lowest last 20 rounds at 96%). Scores automatically roll off after 6 months, except for "tournament" scores which last a year. In tournament events, you keep the score for your competitors (who sign it at the end of the round).

I live between a 10 and 13 index ... which makes me a 12 - 15 at my home course. I would say I play to that 25%+ of the time.

Super - Never thought about the "endurance factor" for posting 9 holes scores. You may be onto something there. From personal experience I would say I generally get better as the round progresses.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 12:34 am

super_realist wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:UK system is rubbish compared to the system used in the rest of the world. As usual Britain came up with the idea in the first place then people overseas went and improved it. You can say this about the handicap system but apply it to anything else eg the London underground.

UK system only works on your home course and does not transfer properly when you play other courses.

Eh? How does it not work elsewhere? You have a CSS, a SSS and often in away competitions a Home and Away CSS. How doesn't that transfer?

Come on super, you must recognise that SSS CSS is inadequate. It only works for scratch golfers, the clue is in the title. A tough course may have a SSS of 1 or 2 over par but for an 18 handicapper the difficulty may equate to 5 or 6 shots. The slope system appears much more equitable

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by JAS on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 9:16 am

raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:UK system is rubbish compared to the system used in the rest of the world. As usual Britain came up with the idea in the first place then people overseas went and improved it. You can say this about the handicap system but apply it to anything else eg the London underground.

UK system only works on your home course and does not transfer properly when you play other courses.

Eh? How does it not work elsewhere? You have a CSS, a SSS and often in away competitions a Home and Away CSS. How doesn't that transfer?

Come on super, you must recognise that SSS CSS is inadequate. It only works for scratch golfers, the clue is in the title. A tough course may have a SSS of 1 or 2 over par but for an 18 handicapper the difficulty may equate to 5 or 6 shots. The slope system appears much more equitable

The debate about whether SSS/CSS is inadequate is fine, but surely it applies both to home AND away. Not sure how you're arriving at a point where it works at home but not away Ray? It either works or it doesn't, I think it works most of the time but I also think there MUST be a better system out there.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 2:43 pm

super_realist wrote:Isn't it about time they expanded The Masters field?

I can't see any reason this isn't a full event.
I can. For the Masters folks it's all about not only the fan experience but the player's experience as well. And to that end, they prefer a 1 tee start for all players unless the event is weather affected. Being as early in the year as it is... and considering they prefer to have players being able to warm up in daylight as opposed to darkness... that makes 33-36 groupings pretty much the max they can get around in the 1st two rounds. IMO it's great that at least one tournament cares enough and is in the position to do it right.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 8:37 pm

The Masters isn't earlier in the year than the PGA is late?
Isn't bottom line just that they do as they have always done. Don't think players would rate The Masters any less if they had to start on 10th or play threesomes. Being a Major I also think they should re-evaluate whether traditions should weigh higher than having the strongest field possible, truly worthy of 100 points. But maybe that's up to the OWGR people?

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 11:30 pm

Real PGA Tour golf in the Tournament of Champions next week. Field of 32 is out and includes: Day, DJ, Hideki, Reed, Snedeker, Spieth, Justin Thomas & Bubba among others.

Some real chalk, mostly Euro Tour guys, are taking a pass though. Here the 6 guys missing and their world ranking... #7 Adam Scott, #23 Charl Schwartzel, #11 Danny Willett, #13 Sergio Garcia, #4 Henrik Stenson & #2 Rory McIlroy.


Last edited by robopz on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 11:39 pm

#50 Danny Willett?

He really has played badly since his Masters win.

Back on Page 11, I speculated that those 6 players would not be in the field.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 11:41 pm

pedro wrote:The Masters isn't earlier in the year than the PGA is late?
Isn't bottom line just that they do as they have always done. Don't think players would rate The Masters any less if they had to start on 10th or play threesomes. Being a Major I also think they should re-evaluate whether traditions should weigh higher than having the strongest field possible, truly worthy of 100 points. But maybe that's up to the OWGR people?
For the most part, as long as you have the top-50 there (top-70 would be better), adding a bunch more players doesn't matter much IMO. Taking the 4 majors + the Players since the advent of the OWGR rankings in 1986 (155 events)... 84% of the winners are inside the top-50, 91% inside the top-70, and 94% inside the top-100. Even excluding the Masters it's still 88% of the winners inside the top-70.

Bottom line: The Masters usually ends up with about 75 top-100 players. IMO they could do a little better getting more of the #51-75 in there (they get 10-15 of them now) but beyond that, the field is fine.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 11:44 pm

GPB wrote:#50 Danny Willett?

He really has played badly since his Masters win.

Back on Page 11, I speculated that those 6 players would not be in the field.
Oops... MY BAD... WILLiam McGirt is #50.... but Danny WILLett is #11... fixed above

And yeah... Adam Scott along with the prime Euro Tour guys skipping the ToC is pretty much de rigueur these days... Kind of surprised Grace is playing, but good for him. ToC is a great opportunity for the dual tour guys...

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Sat 31 Dec 2016, 12:00 am

There is a big poker tournament sponsored by PokerStars in the Bahamas, starting next Friday. Sergio has been involved in that tournament the last couple of years

http://www.pokerstarslive.com/championship/events/bahamas/

Sergio usually starts the year in Qatar.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Sat 31 Dec 2016, 12:38 am

GPB wrote:There is a big poker tournament sponsored by PokerStars in the Bahamas, starting next Friday.  Sergio has been involved in that tournament the last couple of years

http://www.pokerstarslive.com/championship/events/bahamas/

Sergio usually starts the year in Qatar.
Sergio along with Ernie Els and Adam Scott are committed to Singapore - Jan. 19-22. Week after S.A Open, same week as Abu Dhabi and the week before Qatar. Spieth not surprisingly skipping it this year.

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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 31 Dec 2016, 4:24 pm

pedro wrote:You can look up Trumps hcp here: 2.8 my dear

http://www.fsga.org/sections/Handicaps/Handicap-Look-Up/452

If that cretin is a 2.8, I'm the all-powerful deity that created the Universe. Why would one believe that he'd be honest about his golfing handicap? He isn't about anything else.
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Re: PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 31 Dec 2016, 4:25 pm

pedro wrote:Well you can see his 20 recent scores. So either he's not that bad or he's cheating.
And/or lying.
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