Aviva Premiership - Round 8

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Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 11:12 am

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Table

POS
TEAM
-PL- -W- -D- -L- -PF- -PA- -DIFF- -TF- -TA- -TB- -LB- -PTS-
1
Saracens
7
6
0
1
199
69
130
24
5
4
1
29
2
Wasps
7
6
0
1
241
133
108
31
15
4
0
28
3
Bath Rugby
7
6
0
1
185
94
91
20
10
2
0
26
4
Leicester Tigers
7
4
0
3
182
163
19
19
19
2
1
19
5
Sale Sharks
7
3
1
3
151
162
-11
18
16
3
1
18
6
Harlequins
7
4
0
3
147
154
-7
16
19
1
0
17
7
Exeter Chiefs
7
2
1
4
166
161
5
19
20
3
3
16
8
Northampton Saints
7
3
0
4
125
134
-9
12
9
1
2
15
9
Newcastle Falcons
7
3
0
4
89
158
-69
8
19
0
2
14
10
Gloucester Rugby
7
1
2
4
146
157
-11
14
20
1
3
12
11
Worcester Warriors
7
1
2
4
120
208
-88
15
23
1
0
9
12
Bristol Rugby
7
0
0
7
95
253
-158
13
34
0
2
2




Fixtures

Friday 18th November:

19:45 Bath Rugby v Bristol Rugby (live on BT Sport)
Referee: Ian Tempest
Assistant Referees: Philip Watters & Roger Baileff
TMO: Rowan Kitt

While missing players like Charteris, Ford & Joseph to international call-ups, Bath are not as badly affected as they might have been. A large(ish) injury list (with the likes of Denton, Louw and Watson ruled out by injury but may have been called up by their countries if fit) may be lessening, and rumours abound that Faletau will feature. If they are to make a decent fist of survival, Bristol have to get something out of fixtures like these when their opponents are not at full strength. However I struggle to see anything other than a TBP win for the home team.


19:45 Worcester Warriors v Northampton Saints
Referee: Greg MacDonald
Assistant Referees: Paul Dix & Peter Allan
TMO: Geoff Warren

Missing Hartley, Lawes, Harrison, North and Picamoles this could be a tough trip for Saints to Sixways. Whilst Worcester are still struggling with injuries and badly missing Hougaard at scrum half, this will be a fixture they hope to win and put some distance between themselves and Bristol.


20:00 Newcastle Falcons v Exeter Chiefs
Referee: Tim Wigglesworth
Assistant Referees: John Meredith & Gareth Copsey
TMO: Trevor Fisher

With just two wins in the AP, and struggles in Europe, last years losing finalists have been struggling for form of late. If Falcons are to capitalise they will need to stay on the right side of perhaps the most pedantic ref in England and pick someone other than Delaney at 10.



Saturday 19th November


16:30 Gloucester Rugby v Wasps
Referee: Dean Richards
Assistant Referees: Roy Maybank & Simon McConnell
TMO: David Rose

Wasps have been building some serious strength in their squad, and despite the injuries they still have in their squad should be sending a powerful team down to Kingsholm. Gloucester will be close to full strength and if they play well can score points against anyone. I feel they will miss Moriarty's grit in the back row and will come up short against a very confident Coventry team.


Sunday 20th November

13:00 Sale Sharks v Saracens (live on BT Sport)

Sarries fans may be apprehensive of this fixture, point to an injury list and international calls that will rob them of perhaps  first choice players. However this is why they have splashed the cash to build a large squad. In what could be a rather attritional game, I suspect Sarries will out muscle Diamonds men.


15:15 Leicester Tigers v Harlequins (live on BT Sport)
Referee: Craig Maxwell-Keys
Assistant Referees: Paul Burton & Nigel Carrick
TMO: David Grashoff

Quins are missing the core of their team, Marler, Sinkler, Robshaw, Care, Roberts & Brown. Add in the injuries and it will be a weakened side, lacking in leadership, that travels to Welford Road. Despite their defensive woes this is the kind of game that Leicester have to win well if the critics are to stay off Cockerill's back.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Welly on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 5:18 pm

TBH if Tigers are still looking at another 10/12 and don't think Bryant is up to it then wouldn't mind lookin. At him.

Crap game but a good win, short turn around v Bristol I expect Harrison to start and maybe see Worth and Evans feature heavily.

Injury to Ayerza means We are tight for props esp with Cole, Logo, Balmain, Rizzo out already.


Biggest plus another game without conceding a try.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 5:19 pm

Tigers win a scrappy game. Quins looked surprisingly lifeless in the backs, no real spark. To be fair it is a bitterly cold and wet day in Leicester today so not really meant for flowing rugby and possibly explains the selection of errors from both sides.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Welly on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 5:55 pm

Bateman played well.

Kitto was a bit meh, he is lucky that White and Simmons are only 18/19 IMO.

I fancy our chances at catching the 2nd and 3rd IMO over the next 3 weeks.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by B91212 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 6:26 pm

Well, that was hard going as a neutral but the right result based on the game. Not sure how Healy gave Burns MOM, thought Slater, McCaffrey, Genge and maybe Bateman all put in good shifts and were better. It was a forwards day.

Thought Dickson was poor for Quins. Either took an absolute age to get the ball away (being a Saints fan I'm thinking it may be a Dickson family thing) or when he did try put some speed on it Evans usually took the ball standing still at head height. No wonder the Quins backs couldn't get anything going.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Heaf on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:10 pm

Know what you mean about Dickson - I thought the picture had frozen at times

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by HongKongCherry on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:35 pm

A rather delayed Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

Why can't our forwards front up like that every week? Hibbard was immense!

On a completely different note, Calumet Clark has had his final chance and now deserves to be banned for life. There is absolutely no place for that on a rugby field. No doubt he'll just get a 2 week ban...

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 10:26 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:A rather delayed Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

Why can't our forwards front up like that every week? Hibbard was immense!

On a completely different note, Calumet Clark has had his final chance and now deserves to be banned for life. There is absolutely no place for that on a rugby field. No doubt he'll just get a 2 week ban...

Reduced for previous good behaviour as his advocate will no doubt promise the panel he's never been in trouble before.

B91212, agreed on Slater he was a beast through out that game. Hopefully we're going to see him hit his very best form again. A couple of years back he dragged us into the playoffs as captain nearly on our own. We could do with that level of brilliance again. Bateman was very good in parts but not so at the scrum, then again our scrum was pretty dodgy throughout and has been most the season. Thacker was a handful off the bench again, hopefully he's cemented that bench role now.

I really feel sorry for Crofty, so long to get fully fit and playing well then twenty minutes in and it's concussion in an innocuous incident. Poor guy can't get a break.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 2:04 pm

What has Calum Clark done now?

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 2:11 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:What has Calum Clark done now?

Not sure exactly. Sounded like something off the ball after Wuss scored their late try. Meant Wuss got a penalty on halfway line despite time being up - and would have won the game if it had been successful. Woudl have been appropriate for the stupidity of Clark - but not sure what he actually did.

Edit:

Incident on highlights - not sure if this link works (http://www.premiershiprugby.com/video/highlights-worcester-warriors-v-northampton-saints/). Wuss SH lightly barges CC trying to congratulate try scorer. Clark reacts rather violently and on TMO review gets a yellow card. Has he been cited?

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by mid_gen on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 2:48 pm

The man has a temperament problem. There was nothing in that he just loses it in frustration.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by HongKongCherry on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 2:51 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:What has Calum Clark done now?

This http://sport.bt.com/ocallaghan-incensed-by-challenge-from-clark-91364114335486

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by HongKongCherry on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 4:55 pm

Clark has been cited and will meet the panel on Wednesday

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 6:46 pm

Well that all reflects very badly on the Saints. Wholly unnecessary incident after the try, the 'football' three man wall and then applauding the missed kick. Not what I'd expect from a Northampton team.

It looked like a nasty attempted elbow but as it doesn't connect and will be countered by Clark claiming he just landed that way I'd expect a low end ban.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Ozzy3213 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 6:53 pm

Clark is an utter

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 7:02 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Clark is an utter

Liability?

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Ozzy3213 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 7:24 pm

I actually put bell end and coward. Not sure why it didn't post.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by doctor_grey on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 7:29 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Well that all reflects very badly on the Saints. Wholly unnecessary incident after the try, the 'football' three man wall and then applauding the missed kick. Not what I'd expect from a Northampton team.

It looked like a nasty attempted elbow but as it doesn't connect and will be countered by Clark claiming he just landed that way I'd expect a low end ban.
I have no idea what was going on in the game.  A mate who drove out to Worcester for the match called me this morning and said it was one of the worst matches he has ever seen.  He said it was clear to the people in his section, a mixed group of Worcester and Northampton supporters, something was brewing, as it was discussed before kickoff.   Apparently they all agreed it was lousy game of Rugby.  Does that have any bearing on the Clark yellow?  No idea.  But has Clark had any foul play since his return from suspension?  No.  Only one yellow for a professional foul, nothing for bad behaviour.  In fact, he has been open about his personal rehab and has truly seemed a better person.  So before he gets tarred with the old brush, let's see what he has to say?

All that aside, there is something wrong with Saints as a team this season and I can't put my finger on it.  Mediocre and edgy.  Hopefully I can spend a little time when I get home for the holidays.  

I blame Bruce Craig.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 8:03 pm

Clark is an odd one. As you say doc he doesn't pick up many cards but his wrap sheet includes a red card for a headbutt and a lengthy ban for breaking a player's arm deliberately (including lying during the hearing). He isn't always in the niggle but it seems when he loses his temper he loses it in a big way.

The elbow shot will take a lot of reviewing as that could be nasty or it could be innocuous. Where Clark is looking, how he eventually lands etc will need to be looked at. The reaction post try was moronic.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Welly on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 8:07 pm

mid_gen wrote:The man has a temperament problem. There was nothing in that he just loses it in frustration.

A temperament problem that leads him to try and cause serious injury...

Yep nothing in that at all.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 8:21 pm

Ah Calum....

That was a bad attempt at an elbow. And it was also a bad reaction when he grabbed the little scrum half I think and threw him to the ground.

Clark is a frustration. He really could have been that tough aggressive back rower that England were after for many a year (not now) but he just has that side to him.
But lets be clear, theres many a revered international star enforcer who has a side to them like clark but are celebrated. Bakkies Botha...Johnson...numerous all blacks...have put cheap shots in...

Clarks biggest problem is the Hawkins incident. Without that, I don't think these would have been that big an issue....but due to that previous appalling incident (where he should have been banned for life) he will always be looked worse for.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by doctor_grey on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 9:22 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah Calum....

That was a bad attempt at an elbow. And it was also a bad reaction when he grabbed the little scrum half I think and threw him to the ground.

Clark is a frustration. He really could have been that tough aggressive back rower that England were after for many a year (not now) but he just has that side to him.
But lets be clear, theres many a revered international star enforcer who has a side to them like clark but are celebrated. Bakkies Botha...Johnson...numerous all blacks...have put cheap shots in...

Clarks biggest problem is the Hawkins incident. Without that, I don't think these would have been that big an issue....but due to that previous appalling incident (where he should have been banned for life) he will always be looked worse for.
I agree completely. I have been pulling for him since he appeared to get himself on the straight and narrow. And a solid citizen. But, you are right, he will always be judged with less latitude than other people because of his priors. As he should be.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Gwlad on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 9:23 pm

Clark is a thug. Should have got  a life ban after breaking the guys arm. This is the true nature of the guy and he needs to be put out of the game once and for all

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 9:35 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah Calum....

That was a bad attempt at an elbow. And it was also a bad reaction when he grabbed the little scrum half I think and threw him to the ground.

Clark is a frustration. He really could have been that tough aggressive back rower that England were after for many a year (not now) but he just has that side to him.
But lets be clear, theres many a revered international star enforcer who has a side to them like clark but are celebrated. Bakkies Botha...Johnson...numerous all blacks...have put cheap shots in...

Clarks biggest problem is the Hawkins incident. Without that, I don't think these would have been that big an issue....but due to that previous appalling incident (where he should have been banned for life) he will always be looked worse for.
I agree completely.  I have been pulling for him since he appeared to get himself on the straight and narrow.  And a solid citizen.  But, you are right, he will always be judged with less latitude than other people because of his priors.  As he should be.  

I think redemption is possible. Hartley has kept his nose relatively clean over the last couple of years and his priors are starting to be forgotten. This is the man who has something like 53 weeks worth of bans under his belt. He's calmed down, plays aggressively but fairly and has made his apologies. People have started to like and respect him, his team mates certainly seem to.

Clark could have achieved similar if he'd kept his nose clean this season and got people talking about his good form again. Instead it's two completely pointless acts and everyone is remembering how he got sent off in an age grade final and how he broke Hawkins arm. 

Johnno and Bakkies threw their weight around but there was normally  a point to it. In the 79th minute when the game is virtually won? Nope, especially with it gifting the opposition a chance to win.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 9:58 pm

I think the difference with Hartley Sam is the Hawkins issue. He deliberately broke a mans arm on the pitch. That was despicable. Hartley hasn't done anything that bad. You just cant make any excuse for that....and any misdemeanour that he does just reverts back to that exceptionally ugly incident.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Welly on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 9:59 pm

Also don't think Hartley lied at a hearing though.


Last edited by Welly on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:02 pm

Sorry Welly? Headscratch Laugh

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Welly on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:09 pm

Honking.

I'm tired.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by mid_gen on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 7:58 am

Welly wrote:
mid_gen wrote:The man has a temperament problem. There was nothing in that he just loses it in frustration.

A temperament problem that leads him to try and cause serious injury...

Yep nothing in that at all.

I meant there was nothing in the guy bumping into him.

It seems apparent that the man is not capable of restraining his tempter on the pitch. There's a good case for him never playing again imo.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by HongKongCherry on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 8:04 am

3 week ban for Clark picard

Whilst I never expected him to be banned for life, this is a man who has deliberately committed an assault 3 times and the latest really should have seen him miss most of the remainder of the season. At what point will he be deemed unfit to take the field? Does he need to end another player's career?

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by mid_gen on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 8:14 am

It wasn't even the fracas at the end of the match he's in trouble for.

People that can't handle control their aggression on the pitch have no place on it in my view.

There's a fine line between say, Mike Brown's aggressive side, who may frequently get into a little pushing match and have words with people, and actually striking or deliberately hurting a player.

Clark is most definitely on the wrong side of that line.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Cyril on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:22 am

Clark got a mid-range entry point for the ban for the offence so they weren't exactly being soft on him. Perhaps the laws governing this kind of offence are too lenient. Previous good behaviour (and during the hearing) seems to be taken into account but not previous poor behaviour. I don't players should be hung out to dry for past crimes but I think it should be a deterrent factor.

Clark's problem is that he doesn't get banned often but when he does it's something serious.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:44 am

HongKongCherry wrote:3 week ban for Clark picard

Whilst I never expected him to be banned for life, this is a man who has deliberately committed an assault 3 times and the latest really should have seen him miss most of the remainder of the season. At what point will he be deemed unfit to take the field? Does he need to end another player's career?  

To be fair he threw an elbow that missed. There's been more dangerous play that's been given more lenient sentences. You have to view the incident not view the man who did it first and foremost.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by HongKongCherry on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 11:53 am

The fact he missed should have no bearing, his intention was to hurt DOC. Furthermore, you cannot view the incident in isolation as he has previous of intentionally injuring players and whilst he missed, this must be taken into account.

Taking Clark out of the equation, this was still a pretty heinous crime. As Flatman said on the highlights, that is the kind of offence that if he'd connected would have shattered his eye socket. There aren't that many more dangerous plays that have received lighter sentences, but this further highlights how dreadful and inconsistent the disciplinary process is.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:00 pm

My argument was that the severity of the incident puts the player in the ball park for low/mid/high range of punishment. When the sentence is determined you have to look at previous character. So mid range presumably because it could have been very nasty but was clumsy and missed. After that then you'd expect a little more than three given his previous for GBH. A five week ban to see him out of action to the new year maybe.

Then again after committing GBH and breaking Hawkins arm he was allowed to lie in the hearing and serve his ban over the summer when there were no games to be played. So somebody in the disciplinary process likes him.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by mid_gen on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:10 pm

I've seen the incident the citing was for now.

He should never be allowed near a rugby pitch again. Swinging an elbow at someone's head like that is utterly indefensible.

I hope the disciplinary team don't end up having to regret letting that thug carry on playing.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by Gwlad on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 5:01 pm

Ive just seen it too. One hopes that this will be enough for a life ban based on his clear attempt to land his elbow in oppo's face and trying to snap a guys arm off before

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by nathan on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 9:34 pm

Wigglesworth is such a Poopie ref

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by nathan on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:21 pm

Anyone think Manu has lost some weight?


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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by ChequeredJersey on Sat 26 Nov 2016, 3:28 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Clark is an odd one. As you say doc he doesn't pick up many cards but his wrap sheet includes a red card for a headbutt and a lengthy ban for breaking a player's arm deliberately (including lying during the hearing). He isn't always in the niggle but it seems when he loses his temper he loses it in a big way.

The elbow shot will take a lot of reviewing as that could be nasty or it could be innocuous. Where Clark is looking, how he eventually lands etc will need to be looked at. The reaction post try was moronic.


The fact that he doesn't always have niggle but when he does lose his temper he does so so viciously is a point against his favour. He may only have 3-4 incidents on his sheet but they are serious enough and with enough clear intent, whilst wound up, to go out and cause pointless harm that it makes him an instant liability and a danger. 53 weeks worth of bans for aggressive and even harmful acts can make you a dirty player and possibly a dangerous player. Recurrent cynical offences can indicate a cynical player. But the uncontrolled acts, spread across a career, all possible to cause serious, serious harm makes a player dangerous and unpredictable.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 26 Nov 2016, 9:02 am

nathan wrote:Anyone think Manu has lost some weight?


He does look lean. Good sign. Means he must have been chomping at the bit to play and have been really looking after himself during his rehab. We know Manu likes his food and a beer so I was wondering if that might have made his come back a little slower or might have seen him return a little larger. Not going to be a problem by the looks of it. Hopefully he'll be match fit and at his best by the new year.

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Re: Aviva Premiership - Round 8

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