Ireland v Australia, 26 November

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 9:44 am

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Ireland v Australia, 26 November - Page 2 Irelan10    Ireland v Australia, 26 November - Page 2 Wallab10
IRELAND v AUSTRALIA
26 November 2016
KO: 17:30
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant Referees: JP Doyle (England), Craig Maxwell-Keys (England)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (France)

A. Head to Head

32 Played 32
10 Won 21
1 Drawn 1
21 Lost 10
453 Points 657

B. Recent Form

22 November 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
26 – 23 to Ireland

16 November 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
15 – 32 to Australia

17 September 2011
Eden Park, Auckland
15 – 6 to Ireland

26 June 2010
Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane
22 – 15 to Australia

15 November 2009
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 20 draw

14 June 2008
Colonial Stadium, Melbourne
18 – 12 to Australia

19 November 2006
Lansdowne Road, Dublin
21 – 6 to Ireland

C. Teams

IRELAND
Ireland v Australia, 26 November - Page 2 Leprac10
Kearney; Trimble, Payne, Ringrose, Earls; Jackson, Murray; McGrath, Best, Furlong; Henderson, Toner; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip.

Replacements: Cronin, Healy, Bealham, Dillane, Van der Flier, Marmion, Carbery, Zebo.

AUSTRALIA
Ireland v Australia, 26 November - Page 2 Kangar10
Folau, Haylett-Petty, Kuridrani, Hodge, Speight, Foley, Genia; Sio, Moore (capt), Kepu; Arnold, Simmons; Mumm, Hooper, Pocock.

Replacements: Latu, Slipper, Alaalatoa, Douglas, Timani, McMahon, Phipps, Cooper, Naivalu (one to be omitted).


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Post by SecretFly on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:45 pm

If anything this game has me more nervous than any of the pervious ones. At least you have a ready made excuse built up when facing the ABs (in the form they've been in in recent years)

But this one - more especially because we do have that Chicago result in our pockets - this could be an almighty banana skin game and one that might have our players wanting to bury their heads in the sand if they don't take control of it early and stay in control. Cheika has his rock solid motivation - to beat the bejaysus out of the team that beat the ABs.

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Post by Golden on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:09 pm

So with Olding getting injured again will we see Ringrose/Payne at 12 or will Scannell be getting his first cap?

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:22 pm

Golden wrote:So with Olding getting injured again will we see Ringrose/Payne at 12 or will Scannell be getting his first cap?

It will be Ringrose/Payne I reckon but to be honest I think Schmidt should take the risk and go with Scannell. He is in the same mould as Olding/Marshall and has really matured as a player for Munster. Easily one of their most important players now and he is solid in his defence and decision making.

What injury did Olding pick up?

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Post by BamBam on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:27 pm

He played blindside for a couple of games in the 4N too

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Post by profitius on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:53 pm

Murray Kinsella ‏@Murray_Kinsella 19s19 seconds ago
Delay on the embargoed #Ireland team sheet. Team still set to be named at 2pm with a couple of surprises.


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Post by SecretFly on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:53 pm

I would like to offer my sincere apologies to Australia in advance of any win Ireland might have. I'm certain the ref won't be looking closely enough at the underhand ways we'll use to win (if we do) - so...well, sorry in advance.


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Post by profitius on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:11 pm

Don't know what the surprise is. Its a highly predictable backline unfortunately.

McGrath
Best
Furlong
Henderson
Toner
Stander
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Jackson
Earls
Ringrose
Payne
Trimble
Kearney

Cronin
Healy
Bealham
Dillane
VDF
Carbery
Marmion
Zebo
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:13 pm

where's the surprises?

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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:17 pm

Carbery as reserve 9 and Marmion as reserve 10.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:21 pm

I wouldn't be too surprised by that.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:26 pm

I don't feel very comfortable with Ringrose at 12...that centre pairing looks seriously unbalanced. Then again, what choice did Schmidt have after sending Marshall back to Ulster? He couldn't have anticipated Olding's injury.

I still would have went with Scannell. He actually plays at 12 and it isn't like Ringrose has much more experience, only winning his first cap weeks ago...

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:28 pm

I also don't quite understand...who is there to cover at 12? Carbery? Earls moving into the centre?

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Post by profitius on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:37 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I also don't quite understand...who is there to cover at 12? Carbery? Earls moving into the centre?


Earls. Rolling Eyes Schmidt loves playing players out of position.


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Post by the-goon on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:01 pm

Strange pack by Aus. 3 2nd rows, 2 7s and no 6 or 8. Our backrow is effectively 3 number 8s. They will need their front 5 to get through a mountain of carrying, expect a 6/2 bench split from Aus.
I think they will have issues getting on the front foot in open play, if we are able to deny them clean 1st phase ball off set piece, we will have an easier day defensively. We have big carriers across the pack, I think we will target them around the ruck, and look to simply blast pocock out of the breakdown.

It's keeping a handle on their backs that will be the issue.

We have serious pace, power and tempo off the bench as well, so I expect the final 20 not to be an issue for us.

Feeling more confident about this, but we need to dominate possession. Luckily we have a pack that can do that.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:06 pm

The outdated argument that Sean O'Brien isn't a legitimate 7 has surely moved on. He can play all three positions to an extremely high standard, but I certainly think he is best at 7. His best trait when he first burst on to the scene was his explosive carrying, but now I believe his breakdown work is paralleled only by David Pocock.

The breakdown battle will be interesting. Thankfully all three players in the Irish back row are excellent at winning turnovers and I think Ireland are up there with the best in terms of holding possession at the ruck.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:08 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I also don't quite understand...who is there to cover at 12? Carbery? Earls moving into the centre?

Jackson would move to 12

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:09 pm

Sending Marshall home now seems bizarre - he should be 12

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:10 pm

One thing is for sure the Ireland back rows got the better of the NZ ones over two tests. Australia will be a different challenge their back rows are fairly slippy characters.

I do expect us to win the forward battle overall at home though.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:17 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Sending Marshall home now seems bizarre - he should be 12

Probably based on one weak game against Canada which seems harsh. To be fair, I think most Ulster players have been off colour recently which shouldn't be any surprise.

This won't be popular but I definitely think Schmidt takes a lower tolerance approach with players outside the Leinster brigade. Kearney, Murphy, Healy etc. would certainly have been dropped a while back were they from any other province. He has more faith in these players probably because of his relationship with them as head coach of Leinster.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:27 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Sending Marshall home now seems bizarre - he should be 12

Probably based on one weak game against Canada which seems harsh. To be fair, I think most Ulster players have been off colour recently which shouldn't be any surprise.


And still five starters on the team. Not bad from Joe for a side being off-colour. I'm not sure what's expected of him. We want to win these games.

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Post by Guest on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:29 pm

Marshall sent home ...

Down with this sort of thing! mad

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:30 pm

@ Rory, No matter what Schmidt does there will always be accusations of a Leinster bias.

What I have noticed is that Schmidt picks players that will do a specific job based on the sort of overall team of game plan he is looking to play and not necessarly who fans think are playing the best for their province.

He has for example been very persistent with Payne at 13 when lots of fans have at various stages called for other options there such as Ringrose etc.

However, its obvious that Payne is there because he fits better with whatever defensive systems that Schmidt wants to employ.

Personally I don't really care at all who he picks and not sure it should matter that much if he is able to put 15 players together to execute a winning game plan in a high percentage of matches and lets face that's what he does.

As fans we aren't privy to all the information that he has in training/injuries/fitness etc and what he is trying to achieve with his picks.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Sending Marshall home now seems bizarre - he should be 12

Probably based on one weak game against Canada which seems harsh. To be fair, I think most Ulster players have been off colour recently which shouldn't be any surprise.


And still five starters on the team.  Not bad from Joe for a side being off-colour.  I'm not sure what's expected of him.  We want to win these games.

Oh, I'm not blaming Joe at all. Ulster have been crap at times this season and a lot of our best players have been in poor form. Jackson, Olding, Marshall, Henderson...they haven't been at their best by any means. Except Rory. Rory is just the man.

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Post by wolfball on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:44 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:@ Rory, No matter what Schmidt does there will always be accusations of a Leinster bias.

What I have noticed is that Schmidt picks players that will do a specific job based on the sort of overall team of game plan he is looking to play and not necessarly who fans think are playing the best for their province.

He has for example been very persistent with Payne at 13 when lots of fans have at various stages called for other options there such as Ringrose etc.

However, its obvious that Payne is there because he fits better with whatever defensive systems that Schmidt wants to employ.

Personally I don't really care at all who he picks and not sure it should matter that much if he is able to put 15 players together to execute a winning game plan in a high percentage of matches and lets face that's what he does.

As fans we aren't privy to all the information that he has in training/injuries/fitness etc and what he is trying to achieve with his picks.

Its not a teamsheet I would pick, but I think Joe has some political capital in the bank until after the 6 nations at least. Ireland by 8.

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Post by wolfball on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:45 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Sending Marshall home now seems bizarre - he should be 12

Probably based on one weak game against Canada which seems harsh. To be fair, I think most Ulster players have been off colour recently which shouldn't be any surprise.


And still five starters on the team.  Not bad from Joe for a side being off-colour.  I'm not sure what's expected of him.  We want to win these games.

Oh, I'm not blaming Joe at all. Ulster have been crap at times this season and a lot of our best players have been in poor form. Jackson, Olding, Marshall, Henderson...they haven't been at their best by any means. Except Rory. Rory is just the man.

Best really has laid to rest any doubt over his captaincy. One of the first on the team now for me.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:48 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:@ Rory, No matter what Schmidt does there will always be accusations of a Leinster bias.

What I have noticed is that Schmidt picks players that will do a specific job based on the sort of overall team of game plan he is looking to play and not necessarly who fans think are playing the best for their province.

He has for example been very persistent with Payne at 13 when lots of fans have at various stages called for other options there such as Ringrose etc.

However, its obvious that Payne is there because he fits better with whatever defensive systems that Schmidt wants to employ.

Personally I don't really care at all who he picks and not sure it should matter that much if he is able to put 15 players together to execute a winning game plan in a high percentage of matches and lets face that's what he does.

As fans we aren't privy to all the information that he has in training/injuries/fitness etc and what he is trying to achieve with his picks.

I think there is absolutely Leinster bias and it is perfectly understandable. Look at what he achieved with a lot of the Leinster players. I'm just nothing that there is a reason why some players are given a lot of chances while others aren't. It paid off in Chicago.

To be fair, Payne hasn't had a poor game that I can recall. The criticism sent in his direction is largely due to our blunt attack. Our defensive shape over the past few years has been built around Henshaw-Payne.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:51 pm

The point is you dont really know if there is a Leinster bias or not because you dont know why Schmidt picks the players he picks. Its just speculation.

I wouldnt criticise Payne I think he is a really good player for us. Same with Jackson though some people prefer Carbery.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:00 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The point is you dont really know if there is a Leinster bias or not because you dont know why Schmidt picks the players he picks. Its just speculation.

I wouldnt criticise Payne I think he is a really good player for us. Same with Jackson though some people prefer Carbery.

Based on all those games Carberry has played Rolling Eyes

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:10 pm

marty2086 wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:The point is you dont really know if there is a Leinster bias or not because you dont know why Schmidt picks the players he picks. Its just speculation.

I wouldnt criticise Payne I think he is a really good player for us. Same with Jackson though some people prefer Carbery.

Based on all those games Carberry has played Rolling Eyes

Same logic applies then when you compare calls for Healy, Heaslip, Murphy, Kearney to be replaced by more inexperienced but arguably more in form players.

Like I said Im happy with the picks. It doesnt really bother me who he selects and sometimes I wonder why people get so up tight about it when its Ireland we are supporting and not Jonny from the local parish.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:11 pm

marty2086 wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:The point is you dont really know if there is a Leinster bias or not because you dont know why Schmidt picks the players he picks. Its just speculation.

I wouldnt criticise Payne I think he is a really good player for us. Same with Jackson though some people prefer Carbery.

Based on all those games Carberry has played Rolling Eyes

Based maybe on a considered 'exciting' X Factor?  I'm neither here nor there in the debate on bias.  I reckon bias is easy to be seen when you're the victim of its supposed presence.  That is to say, it's easy Not to see it when you think your Province has done okay. So it's perception.

But aren't we (as a Nation) trying to seek out and select players we think have that little bit extra in all positions?  Nobody says we're close to unearthing a perfect team yet but isn't that the goal?  Some players we have right now had much promise when they became Internationals - but in the backs from 15 to 9 I think we have a lot of seeking still to do to uncover that close-to-perfect bunch.  Carberry is just another name that brings hope of creating that something extra - that something above 'safe'.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:26 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:The point is you dont really know if there is a Leinster bias or not because you dont know why Schmidt picks the players he picks. Its just speculation.

I wouldnt criticise Payne I think he is a really good player for us. Same with Jackson though some people prefer Carbery.

Based on all those games Carberry has played Rolling Eyes

Same logic applies then when you compare calls for Healy, Heaslip, Murphy, Kearney to be replaced by more inexperienced but arguably more in form players.

Like I said Im happy with the picks. It doesnt really bother me who he selects and sometimes I wonder why people get so up tight about it when its Ireland we are supporting and not Jonny from the local parish.

Not quite true lets break it down:

Carbery has played only 9 games for the Province, according to the Leinster website
At 15 the alternatives - Payne and O'Halloran are a seasoned pro and a guy with over 100 Provincial caps
As for Murphy we can all have opinions but it is not that out there to suggest Stander, POM and SOB are all better players and that a few coming through JOD and Leavy have more potential
(a view to which I subscribe). Murphy is a very hard worker but lacks top class.
Healy isn't first choice and has been usurped albeit by another Leinster man.
Heallip has been the top 8 for a few years now but the form of Stander does mean he is under threat for the first time in a long time and would still be on my team sheet everytime

Basically you cant compare Carbery with the likes of Payne, Stander and POM in terms of their readiness for International rugby.
Not sure who you are referring to with respect to Healy - if its Kilcoyne I agree with you

I think the impression many of us get is whenever it is ia 50/50 call he always comes down in favour of the Leinster man

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Post by rapidsnowman on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:48 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Except Rory. Rory is just the man.

Six Nations Winner x 3 (including a grand slam)

Captain of first Ireland team to beat NZ

In the form of his life and about to win his 100th cap!

clap  clap  clap  clap  clap

Take a bow Rory!

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 6:05 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:The point is you dont really know if there is a Leinster bias or not because you dont know why Schmidt picks the players he picks. Its just speculation.

I wouldnt criticise Payne I think he is a really good player for us. Same with Jackson though some people prefer Carbery.

Based on all those games Carberry has played Rolling Eyes

Same logic applies then when you compare calls for Healy, Heaslip, Murphy, Kearney to be replaced by more inexperienced but arguably more in form players.

Like I said Im happy with the picks. It doesnt really bother me who he selects and sometimes I wonder why people get so up tight about it when its Ireland we are supporting and not Jonny from the local parish.

Calm down. It's an obvious observation. Of course he is going to have a preference towards the players he coached and won trophies with. I don't see what the issue is.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 9:24 am

Haha Im quite calm Rory. Im just saying that you dont know that is the reason he is selecting players over others. Maybe he thinks they are better or fit his plan?

As long as we are winning it doesnt really matter.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 9:53 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:The point is you dont really know if there is a Leinster bias or not because you dont know why Schmidt picks the players he picks. Its just speculation.

I wouldnt criticise Payne I think he is a really good player for us. Same with Jackson though some people prefer Carbery.

Based on all those games Carberry has played Rolling Eyes

Same logic applies then when you compare calls for Healy, Heaslip, Murphy, Kearney to be replaced by more inexperienced but arguably more in form players.

Like I said Im happy with the picks. It doesnt really bother me who he selects and sometimes I wonder why people get so up tight about it when its Ireland we are supporting and not Jonny from the local parish.

Carberrys form is a handful of games, the replacements for the other guys have been doing it for a number of years.

Theres no doubting Carberrys talent and ability but theres a lot still to be tested with him. If he started tomorrow he would have guys like Pocock and Hooper up against him for 40/50/60 mins that's a big jump.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:19 am

What did Payne say about Ringrose?  Something along the lines of him being a fantastic player who you just tell to do his thing and let him go.  Payne said he thinks the argument about 'experience' is overdone.  If you have the talent to play at a level then 'experience' shouldn't be allowed be too big a factor.


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Post by rodders on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:20 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:The point is you dont really know if there is a Leinster bias or not because you dont know why Schmidt picks the players he picks. Its just speculation.

I wouldnt criticise Payne I think he is a really good player for us. Same with Jackson though some people prefer Carbery.

Based on all those games Carberry has played Rolling Eyes

Same logic applies then when you compare calls for Healy, Heaslip, Murphy, Kearney to be replaced by more inexperienced but arguably more in form players.

Like I said Im happy with the picks. It doesnt really bother me who he selects and sometimes I wonder why people get so up tight about it when its Ireland we are supporting and not Jonny from the local parish.

Calm down. It's an obvious observation. Of course he is going to have a preference towards the players he coached and won trophies with. I don't see what the issue is.

Schmidt's comments on Ringrose clarify what he looks at in selecting. He's had GR in camps now for over a year so he is comfortable selecting him to start. He's not interested in provincial form, what matters is he has confidence that the players know how to play his systems, with and without the ball or he won't select them.

Scanlon is now getting the same treatment. He's also widening the panel but can only select so many in one camp - Marshal, Olding etc, have had a considerable time in camps and he knows they can do a job but he needs more players who can come in seamlessly.

Same with Carberry, to be a top nation we need more that 2 fly halves. Jackson is further ahead in his development and needs games but he needs to "invest" in Carberry too with Madigan out of the picture.

I think we are in a good place and the next few years should bring more exciting times as we build the squad for 2020.
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:28 am

SecretFly wrote:What did Payne say about Ringrose?  Something along the lines of him being a fantastic players who you just tell to do his thing and let him go.  Payne said he thinks the argument about 'experience' is overdone.  If you have the talent to play at a level then 'experience' shouldn't be allowed be too big a factor.



Yes and no, I think there is a level of experience needed but it all depends on the individual too some just have that x factor/god given talent/spark that nullifies it all

Carberry for me looks like he could have it but at the same time there are some things only playing at the highest level can teach you, its why guys like ROG and Sexton got better, by testing themselves against the very best


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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:41 am

marty2086 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What did Payne say about Ringrose?  Something along the lines of him being a fantastic players who you just tell to do his thing and let him go.  Payne said he thinks the argument about 'experience' is overdone.  If you have the talent to play at a level then 'experience' shouldn't be allowed be too big a factor.



Yes and no, I think there is a level of experience needed but it all depends on the individual too some just have that x factor/god given talent/spark that nullifies it all

Carberry for me looks like he could have it but at the same time there are some things only playing at the highest level can teach you, its why guys like ROG and Sexton got better, by testing themselves against the very best


Well I'd agree with you that things aren't so black and white and of course more experience at a certain level gives you the mental and physical tools to adapt and excel at that level the more you play it.  But I suppose Payne's point is - and I always agree with it - don't impede talent if it seems ready for the Test.... test it in the actual theatre of war.  I think we've been much too careful about our more promising young things in the past.  Other Nations tend to let them at it sooner and assess worthiness to be at the Level by actually dropping players into that level.

You have to show the real promise of course (BOD was dropped right in) but if the raw talent is there - give it its opportunity.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:52 am

SecretFly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What did Payne say about Ringrose?  Something along the lines of him being a fantastic players who you just tell to do his thing and let him go.  Payne said he thinks the argument about 'experience' is overdone.  If you have the talent to play at a level then 'experience' shouldn't be allowed be too big a factor.



Yes and no, I think there is a level of experience needed but it all depends on the individual too some just have that x factor/god given talent/spark that nullifies it all

Carberry for me looks like he could have it but at the same time there are some things only playing at the highest level can teach you, its why guys like ROG and Sexton got better, by testing themselves against the very best


Well I'd agree with you that things aren't so black and white and of course more experience at a certain level gives you the mental and physical tools to adapt and excel at that level the more you play it.  But I suppose Payne's point is - and I always agree with it - don't impede talent if it seems ready for the Test.... test it in the actual theatre of war.  I think we've been much too careful about our more promising young things in the past.  Other Nations tend to let them at it sooner and assess worthiness to be at the Level by actually dropping players into that level.

You have to show the real promise of course (BOD was dropped right in) but if the raw talent is there - give it its opportunity.

I don't necessarily agree, the ABs will drop some players straight in but guys like Ardie Savea have been about the squad for a few years

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Post by rapidsnowman on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:59 am

marty2086 wrote:the ABs will drop some players straight in but guys like Ardie Savea have been about the squad for a few years

Takes a while to teach them the dark arts...... Whistle

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:02 am

marty2086 wrote:

I don't necessarily agree, the ABs will drop some players straight in but guys like Ardie Savea have been about the squad for a few years

But they do. I'm not going to get into naming names over the years. It's known Ireland have always been perhaps over-cautious about dropping wild young lads with oodles of enthusiasm and prospective talent in - because our pervading attitudes have often been more staid than others. We often talked of ruining a young guy if he has a bad experience and we often lauded our patterns of virtually always having the more senior (in age) teams in competitions - lauding the experience that it brings.

Undoubtedly, we've often benefitted from the extra street-savvy of our more experienced sides at times in the past but I'd be of the opinion that we've often shot ourselves in the foot too by having that policy/philosophy.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:05 am

rapidsnowman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:the ABs will drop some players straight in but guys like Ardie Savea have been about the squad for a few years

Takes a while to teach them the dark arts...... Whistle

How long does it take to teach them to aim for the head when tackling?

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:07 am

SecretFly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

I don't necessarily agree, the ABs will drop some players straight in but guys like Ardie Savea have been about the squad for a few years

But they do. I'm not going to get into naming names over the years. It's known Ireland have always been perhaps over-cautious about dropping wild young lads with oodles of enthusiasm and prospective talent in - because our pervading attitudes have often been more staid than others. We often talked of ruining a young guy if he has a bad experience and we often lauded our patterns of virtually always having the more senior (in age) teams in competitions - lauding the experience that it brings.

Undoubtedly, we've often benefitted from the extra street-savvy of our more experienced sides at times in the past but I'd be of the opinion that we've often shot ourselves in the foot too by having that policy/philosophy.

I think there are guys who have gone straight in and there are others who haven't gotten the same chance, I think its unfair to say its a blanket policy almost

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:17 am

marty2086 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

I don't necessarily agree, the ABs will drop some players straight in but guys like Ardie Savea have been about the squad for a few years

But they do. I'm not going to get into naming names over the years. It's known Ireland have always been perhaps over-cautious about dropping wild young lads with oodles of enthusiasm and prospective talent in - because our pervading attitudes have often been more staid than others. We often talked of ruining a young guy if he has a bad experience and we often lauded our patterns of virtually always having the more senior (in age) teams in competitions - lauding the experience that it brings.

Undoubtedly, we've often benefitted from the extra street-savvy of our more experienced sides at times in the past but I'd be of the opinion that we've often shot ourselves in the foot too by having that policy/philosophy.

I think there are guys who have gone straight in and there are others who haven't gotten the same chance, I think its unfair to say its a blanket policy almost

I think we're splitting hairs. I didn't say 'Blanket policy', I'm highlighting that we're all familiar with the idea that it has been an issue often discussed in places like this over the years. It was an issue. We acknowledged it was an issue. We have tended to trust a more settled crew of players who had built up experience - and often used (as some of us do here still even on this thread) the notion of 'experience' as a selection process of sorts.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:23 am

Blanket policy was my phrase, I think each are judged on their merits. The settled crew have been delivering to an extent and I think the current policy is a positive one whereby young guys are being exposed to the environment and are learning the systems and are more prepared when their opportunity comes whether its through injury, loss of form or quirk of fate.

Even guys like Stander and Payne were part of the training camps before being IQ

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:30 am

Well, we need to start seriously working on that backline, marty.  It's the part that's doing okay at certain things but its lack of genuine dangerous bite is forcing too much work onto our forwards.  So if 'experimentation' is the word I'm looking for, so be it.  I know others are happy enough with all aspects of the team.  But for me, 9 to 15 as an out and out attacking platform is just not materialising in a satisfactory way for me.

So I'm all for toying around with those players and positions for a while - even at the expense of 'safe' consistency.  Our forwards have to work too hard and that kind of imbalance will tell again in more serious extended competitions (6Ns/WC)

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Post by yappysnap on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:02 pm

Looking forward to this game as an England fan. This'll be the first proper challenge Aus have faced since England and NZ, it'll be interesting to see how they go against another too team, are they still as bad as they were or have they got better?

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:Well, we need to start seriously working on that backline, marty.  It's the part that's doing okay at certain things but its lack of genuine dangerous bite is forcing too much work onto our forwards.  So if 'experimentation' is the word I'm looking for, so be it.  I know others are happy enough with all aspects of the team.  But for me, 9 to 15 as an out and out attacking platform is just not materialising in a satisfactory way for me.

So I'm all for toying around with those players and positions for a while - even at the expense of 'safe' consistency.  Our forwards have to work too hard and that kind of imbalance will tell again in more serious extended competitions (6Ns/WC)

I think the players we currently have the ability to open up a bit more, Henshaw and Payne are both lauded for their defensive efforts but both have the ability to cut some great lines and open defences up. Trimble too is a great strike runner coming off his wing but we are playing a conservative game and different personnel may not provide the spark

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 1:44 pm

rodders wrote:

Schmidt's comments on Ringrose clarify what he looks at in selecting. He's had GR in camps now for over a year so he is comfortable selecting him to start. He's not interested in provincial form, what matters is he has confidence that the players know how to play his systems, with and without the ball or he won't select them.

Scanlon is now getting the same treatment. He's also widening the panel but can only select so many in one camp - Marshal, Olding etc, have had a considerable time in camps and he knows they can do a job but he needs more players who can come in seamlessly.

Same with Carberry, to be a top nation we need more that 2 fly halves. Jackson is further ahead in his development and needs games but he needs to "invest" in Carberry too with Madigan out of the picture.

I think we are in a good place and the next few years should bring more exciting times as we build the squad for 2020.

100% agree with that.

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