England v Argentina, 26 November

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England v Argentina, 26 November - Page 7 Englan10     England v Argentina, 26 November - Page 7 Mini_p10
ENGLAND v ARGENTINA
26 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant Referees: Marius Mitrea (Italy), Ian Davies (Wales)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)

A. Head to Head

19 Played 19
14 Won 4
1 Drawn 1
4 Lost 14
488 Points 282

B. Recent Form

9 November 2013
Twickenham, London
31 – 12 to England

15 June 2013
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
26 – 51 to England

8 June 2013
Estadio Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
3 – 32 to England

10 September 2011
Otago Stadium, Dunedin, New Zealand
13 – 9 to England

14 November 2009
Twickenham, London
16 – 9 to England

13 June 2009
Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
24 – 22 to Argentina

6 June 2009
Old Trafford, Manchester
37 – 15 to England

11 November 2006
Twickenham, London
18 – 25 to Argentina

C. Teams

ENGLAND 
England v Argentina, 26 November - Page 7 Bulldo10
15 Mike Brown, 14 Jonny May, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Elliot Daly, 10 George Ford, 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Billy Vunipola, 7 Tom Wood, 6 Chris Robshaw, 5 George Kruis, 4 Courtney Lawes, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 1 Mako Vunipola

Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Joe Marler, 18 Kyle Sinckler, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Teimana Harrison,, 21 Danny Care, 22 Ben Te’o, 23 Henry Slade

ARGENTINA
England v Argentina, 26 November - Page 7 Puma11
15 Joaquín Tuculet, 14 Matías Orlando, 13 Matías Moroni, 12 Santiago González Iglesias, 11 Santiago Cordero, 10 Juan Martín Hernández, 9 Tomás Cubelli, 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Matías Alemanno, 4 Guido Petti, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Agustín Creevy (c), 1 Lucas Noguera

Replacements: 16 Julián Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Enrique Pieretto, 19 Facundo Isa, 20 Tomas Lezana, 21 Martin Landajo, 22 Jerónimo De la Fuente, 23 Juan Pablo Estelles


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Post by thomh on Sun 27 Nov - 9:47

I think the naughty step will be imposed on him for a little while by the relevant disciplinary committee anyway.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Sun 27 Nov - 10:07

I thought that the ref had a dreadful game. I thought he only made good decisions re Daly, the deliberate knock on and the England/Argentina yellow and red cards. He was not consistent.

I thought that there were some fantastic displays from both sides though. Creevy was nuggety and in everyone's face. Cordero was silky smooth and dangerous. May was everywhere and the forwards did very well for 75 minutes (we won't count the bit before half time).
A special "well done lad" to Kyle Sinkler. Amazing running, solid in the scrum and great tackling. I would like to see him starting games in the 6 Nations.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Sun 27 Nov - 10:12

Gwlad wrote:Congrats England. Should beat Aus but they'll come back hard and so far from the paucity of quality i have seen this term, i expect their backs are they only ones can give England a test. For England they are only really going to know where they are by playing NZ asap.  

The next 6 Nations ought to be very close with 2 standouts, at least 3 teams capable of winning and 3 looking very close to  each other in terms of the progress they have made this Autumn. England should win but with Ireland at home to England in the final game it should go down to the wire and i dont expect a slam
Assuming England and Ireland can win who are the third team?

I do not see much to choose between France, Wales and Scotland.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Sun 27 Nov - 10:14

Exiledinborders wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Congrats England. Should beat Aus but they'll come back hard and so far from the paucity of quality i have seen this term, i expect their backs are they only ones can give England a test. For England they are only really going to know where they are by playing NZ asap.  

The next 6 Nations ought to be very close with 2 standouts, at least 3 teams capable of winning and 3 looking very close to  each other in terms of the progress they have made this Autumn. England should win but with Ireland at home to England in the final game it should go down to the wire and i dont expect a slam
Assuming England and Ireland can win who are the third team?

I do not see much to choose between France, Wales and Scotland.
France based on today i guess
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Post by ChequeredJersey on Sun 27 Nov - 10:15

thomh wrote:What's the Aussie scrum been like this autumn? I haven't had the chance to watch them but saw EJ trying to stir it up with some comments about meeting the referee to discuss it in advance. Would be great to get Sinckler on with a full half-hour to go at them. Aside from the physical side he brings, he runs such great lines onto flat passes and tackles everything.
They were 0 for 3 against France in their own put in. Not sure about today, looked better
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Post by lostinwales on Sun 27 Nov - 10:34

Just watched the highlights. Sinckler could turn into some player. He came into the scrum at the worst possible time and yes we did give up the try but he looked OK. As for his work in the loose - its the kind of stuff legends are made of.

Only thing worth adding that although May's try was a run in made by smart passing by Ford, Wood and especially JJ, the pace he has means that the run in's can start a long way from the line...

So next week the no.8 position will be hard to fill, but somehow I think we'll be ready for 'Straalia'

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 27 Nov - 11:18

Sinckler has looked excellent. His set-piece work has improved a lot since he started working with Rowntree. A familiar sentence that!

He's improved his set-piece and work rate whilst keeping that aggression and impact in contact. It is the rare combination for a prop, so many lose a bit of edge in the loose after getting more solid in the scrum. Whether his set-piece is yet good enough to survive starting in international will still be in question. The Argentina tour in the summer will be an excellent test of that though.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Sun 27 Nov - 12:05

king_carlos wrote:Sinckler has looked excellent. His set-piece work has improved a lot since he started working with Rowntree. A familiar sentence that!

He's improved his set-piece and work rate whilst keeping that aggression and impact in contact. It is the rare combination for a prop, so many lose a bit of edge in the loose after getting more solid in the scrum. Whether his set-piece is yet good enough to survive starting in international will still be in question. The Argentina tour in the summer will be an excellent test of that though.


Rowntree but also I think Adam Jones deserves some credit!
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Post by Heaf on Sun 27 Nov - 12:09

thomh wrote:I think the naughty step will be  imposed on him for a little while by the relevant disciplinary committee anyway.
Surely he won't get a ban as it was accidental - or does that only apply if you're wearing a black shirt? Whistle

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Post by Gwlad on Sun 27 Nov - 12:13

Exiledinborders wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Congrats England. Should beat Aus but they'll come back hard and so far from the paucity of quality i have seen this term, i expect their backs are they only ones can give England a test. For England they are only really going to know where they are by playing NZ asap.  

The next 6 Nations ought to be very close with 2 standouts, at least 3 teams capable of winning and 3 looking very close to  each other in terms of the progress they have made this Autumn. England should win but with Ireland at home to England in the final game it should go down to the wire and i dont expect a slam
Assuming England and Ireland can win who are the third team?

I do not see much to choose between France, Wales and Scotland.

Wales. Very Happy Wink

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 27 Nov - 13:57

I said before during and saying after...may showed why he was chosen over Roko!

But England showed some serious spirit and fitness and strength endurance to beat that side today m..even though I thought Argentina weren't the best side.

Next week will be a good test.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 27 Nov - 14:03

And whilst I was hugely critical early doors of Harrison, his close in tackling and ruck / breakdown and clearing work was very good indeed. His tackling caused 2 Turnovers! That I can remember.

But I still think he's lightweight...

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Post by Gwlad on Sun 27 Nov - 14:17

If England were to play NZ next week i'm curious what first choice side would be at this point?

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Post by doctor_grey on Sun 27 Nov - 14:27

Daly should be very well rested for next Saturday.........

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Post by nathan on Sun 27 Nov - 19:52

Gwlad wrote:If England were to play NZ next week i'm curious what first choice side would be at this point?

With the injuries, nobody knows. Not sure Who will come in for billy v

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Post by mid_gen on Sun 27 Nov - 20:11

Hughes and Clifford are next in line for Billy, but both injured....Hughes will be back first I'm sure.

Harrison I think is one of those good club players that doesn't quite have what it takes at international level. No shame in that.

6N confidence will come down to injuries. If we have our touring side back then I'm pretty confident of it going to an Ireland showdown last game. That squad would give NZ a good game.

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Post by ebop on Sun 27 Nov - 20:24

Scottrf wrote:World Rugby has shifted pretty sharply in favour of the Northern Hemisphere since the World Cup.
You got that right, World Rugby must have instructed their referees to penalise Southern Hemisphere teams on a 4:1 basis in this window
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Post by Exiledinborders on Sun 27 Nov - 20:32

mid_gen wrote:Hughes and Clifford are next in line for Billy, but both injured....Hughes will be back first I'm sure.

Harrison I think is one of those good club players that doesn't quite have what it takes at international level. No shame in that.

6N confidence will come down to injuries. If we have our touring side back then I'm pretty confident of it going to an Ireland showdown last game. That squad would give NZ a good game.
I have never been that impressed by Harrison and he certainly is not an eight.

If Hughes and Clifford are both out who is next? Either Morgan or Waldrom although not long term options would do a job.

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Post by doctor_grey on Sun 27 Nov - 22:50

Who has been training with England and can step in at Number 8?

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Post by Poorfour on Sun 27 Nov - 22:58

Clifford is actually starting for Quins today, which is encouraging but probably not enough for him to be ready for Oz. Not sure about Hughes.

Morgan, Beaumont and Baby Chisholm are probably next in line
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Post by rozakthegoon on Sun 27 Nov - 23:49

Morgan and beumont both been training with England right?

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Post by rozakthegoon on Sun 27 Nov - 23:50

I hope this is the making of daly. A big psychological hit to the kid. Depending how he is handled and how he handles it himself, could positively shape his character and maturity going forward

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 28 Nov - 0:07

Get Synkler in at no8!

He would be fricking A.Mazing!

Far too early back for Clifford and he's never going to be an Int 8 unless his power game can improve dramatically.


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Post by George Carlin on Mon 28 Nov - 0:09

ebop wrote:
Scottrf wrote:World Rugby has shifted pretty sharply in favour of the Northern Hemisphere since the World Cup.
You got that right, World Rugby must have instructed their referees to penalise Southern Hemisphere teams on a 4:1 basis in this window
Only the teams who are dirty. Obviously.
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Mon 28 Nov - 0:19

Yappy, that is probably not as daft as you think, with a bit of practice and time .................. He has everything that you would want in an 8, except positional sense and the ability to control the ball going backwards or forwards in the scrum. Size 9/10. Tackling, 9/10. Acceleration off the mark, 8/10. Ball handling ,7/10. Could be a Billy Mk. 2.

In my imagination................. 6 Billy V, 7 The Brand, 8 The Kitchen Synk (well the yanks had a refrigerator). Who the hell would want to face a backrow like that



Mind you the way things are going with English qualified 8s, I am thinking of going out to buy a pair of boots, I could be next in line.................................................. Run

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Post by mid_gen on Mon 28 Nov - 2:23

Well, two good 8s starting for Quins now. Clifford and Chisholm let's see how they go

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 28 Nov - 3:09

Both looking decent, think Morgan is ahead right now, don't rush Clifford back or Chis in!
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Post by lostinwales on Mon 28 Nov - 3:22

Just saw a rumor that Billy will miss the 6N. Not exactly surprising but still ... *sigh...

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 28 Nov - 3:29

doctor_grey wrote:Who has been training with England and can step in at Number 8?

Morgan and Beaumont have been training with the squad and are starting at 8 for their clubs today.

Beaumont is viewed more as a lock by EJ though.

I'm not sure what Hughes knock was, he's not playing for Wasps today but if he's fit for the weekend I'd presume he will start at 8 against Oz.

Attwood was back with Bath today so I hope he comes in ahead of Ewels on the bench for Saturday.


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Post by mid_gen on Mon 28 Nov - 4:08

Full 80 minutes and MotM for Clifford.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 28 Nov - 4:26

Eddie Jones was at the Quins match watching as well so it won't have escaped his attention.

I can't see Clifford starting with Robshaw and Wood playing well but it isn't out of possibility that he'd be called onto the bench ahead of Harrison. Jones didn't hesitate with bringing Kruis back after injury and he seems to really rate Clifford.

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 28 Nov - 8:52

Still don't think Clifford is ready to step up to International rugby yet

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 28 Nov - 8:58

As a flanker he is yappy. Not as an 8 though, certainly not without significant changes in how our pack plays.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 28 Nov - 10:06

Clifford could play 8 off the bench with Sinckler and maybe Teo on the pitch, I wouldn't start him there though
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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 28 Nov - 18:26

We need a carrying option from 8 for the balance of the pack. Hughes is the natural choice, if not Morgan imo.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 28 Nov - 19:00

Well didn't think we stood a prayer after 6 mins of that but what a performance. Yes there were a few dodgy moments and Harrison initially struggled but overall well done! Sad for Daly, sure he'll feel like *~£% but these things happen, let alone for a stand in winger. For me the pick of them were Wood, Robshaw and May, who really stepped forward due to the nature of how they had to play. Hughes will probvably come in for Vunipola but if he's not fit I think Jones may well turn to Clifford at 8.

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Post by englandglory4ever on Mon 28 Nov - 19:27

A massive performance by the whole team. To beat Argentina with 14 men was a great achievement. May was everywhere both in defence and attack. Sad for big Billy. Morgan and Hughes will fight it out for the No8 spot I think. Clifford will be in there or thereabouts too. Morgan has international experience on his side.

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Post by rozakthegoon on Mon 28 Nov - 20:11

Once again brown looks fantastic until he doesn't pass/mistimes a pass.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 28 Nov - 20:16

You not think the pass to Vunipola was mainly the fault of Vunipola? Looked a decent pass to me, the stretch later on was a bit unfortunate. Yes it's not his main strength but not a blatent weakness on Saturday?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 28 Nov - 20:27

Do we know what Billy did? Was it knee ligaments..ie ACL?

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 28 Nov - 20:41

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we know what Billy did? Was it knee ligaments..ie ACL?

Cartilage. Someone mentioned he has had an operation already. Its on the Beeb anyway

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 28 Nov - 20:45

Ah well that's a doddle compared to the far more serious Cruciate injuries.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 28 Nov - 21:00

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well that's a doddle compared to the far more serious Cruciate injuries.


I just hope its not the start of one of those injury cycles and that he can get back to full fitness quickly. He's turning into a very special player.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 28 Nov - 21:44

No 7&1/2 wrote:For me the pick of them were Wood, Robshaw and May, who really stepped forward due to the nature of how they had to play.

The situation was ideal for guys with known high work rates (ie Robwood) to shine. The work Jonny May put in was phenomenal, the kind of display that will endear him to the England coaching staff and raise the interest of our friends in Barnet.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 28 Nov - 21:48

Wont happen LT, BS doesnt rate him.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 28 Nov - 21:57

Sgt Poorly you must have missed my comment when I said May well played well. I gave credit where credit was due. If May keeps playing like that then I will be pleased.

My opinion is not set in stone, if a player starts performing well, I will praise them.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 28 Nov - 22:01

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well that's a doddle compared to the far more serious Cruciate injuries.


I just hope its not the start of one of those injury cycles and that he can get back to full fitness quickly. He's turning into a very special player.

Very true.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 29 Nov - 2:00

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well that's a doddle compared to the far more serious Cruciate injuries.


I just hope its not the start of one of those injury cycles and that he can get back to full fitness quickly. He's turning into a very special player.

Sarries will be less tempted to rush such a key player back as quickly as some might. The depth to their squad and ability to keep winning through structure whilst missing key players takes a bit of pressure off having their best XV on the field for all the big games.

They are also very good at peaking for the play-offs and knockout phases.

The start of March when is due back will be the Anglo-Welsh cup semis and final which Sarries may well be involved in but Billy would unlikely have been in if not injured. As it stands it could be used to get him game time, or more realistically he'll return at the back end of March which will give him a good 4 months off.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 29 Nov - 2:45

We shouldn't be rushing anyone back Carlos.

Manu, Billy....I wouldn't have rushed Kruis back (despite him playing very well)

Whilst I like Eddie keeping a selection consistency, we have numerous players which means players should not be risked.

For Billy, we have Nathan Hughes (pretty inexperienced at this level, but a beast) and Ben Morgan who we know has played some great games for England.

No need to rush him.

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Post by mid_gen on Tue 29 Nov - 3:23

Daly banned for 3 weeks.

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