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Post by uncle_nigel on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 3:38 pm

So I just received an email from Twitter regarding a post from Wales Online, claiming that Liam Williams has quit Welsh Rugby and signed for an English Giant - it must be Saracens.

Well done Welsh Rugby, WRU, Welsh Regional rugby; you couldn't pull your heads out of the sand and sort out the state of the game here in Wales which could have enticed some of our top players to stay put and help develop our rugby. Furthermore you allowed our coach to take a sabbatical and promoted the amateur backing staff after we previously suffered an autumn whitewash under them, allowing the continuation of where they left off! Our rugby is pants.

Liam Williams joins the rest, and there will be more to go I reckon.

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Post by B91212 on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 3:56 pm

If this is actually true then I doubt it will be Saracens. More likely Leicester as they are in the market for a 15 and Bath could be another potential (or maybe even Wasps as they seem to like top international full backs Smile. Can understand why Welsh fans will be well and truly miffed if there is something in this story.

If this is correct then I hope it Saints as he's class. Doubt they have space in the cap though and not really a giant based on current form Crying or Very sad . Anyone know if he's good friends with North from their Scarlet days together?

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Post by uncle_nigel on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 4:04 pm

I've finally followed the link and it is Saracens. Wales Online seem quite convinced, it's unlike their usual 'stories.'

And yes, him and George are good mates.

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Post by Allty on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 4:29 pm

'tis Saracens.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 4:35 pm

Yep, but you know the more I look at it this does seem like one of those stories run by Wales Online Rolling Eyes, so perhaps I've been caught. Saracens are set to announce it in January apparently, I don't get why they wouldn't announce it now.

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Post by wayne on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 4:45 pm

uncle_nigel wrote:So I just received an email from Twitter regarding a post from Wales Online, claiming that Liam Williams has quit Welsh Rugby and signed for an English Giant - it must be Saracens.

Well done Welsh Rugby, WRU, Welsh Regional rugby; you couldn't pull your heads out of the sand and sort out the state of the game here in Wales which could have enticed some of our top players to stay put and help develop our rugby. Furthermore you allowed our coach to take a sabbatical and promoted the amateur backing staff after we previously suffered an autumn whitewash under them, allowing the continuation of where they left off! Our rugby is pants.

Liam Williams joins the rest, and there will be more to go I reckon.

From what I understand, the main reason that Liam has decided to go to Saracens is that his girlfriend lives and works in London, by all accounts Saracens matched the WRU offer to Liam.
So what else could the WRU have done, broken the bank to retain Liam, and then do the same for the next player and so on. From what I understand every player has his price set by Gatland and co, and they are NOT prepared to go above the valuation for ANYONE.

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Post by offload on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 4:48 pm

I heard this rumour a week ago, the BBC are now running the story.  Frankly good luck to him, why stay in Wales when he can play for the European champions and play at the highest club level.
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Post by uncle_nigel on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 4:55 pm

wayne wrote:
uncle_nigel wrote:So I just received an email from Twitter regarding a post from Wales Online, claiming that Liam Williams has quit Welsh Rugby and signed for an English Giant - it must be Saracens.

Well done Welsh Rugby, WRU, Welsh Regional rugby; you couldn't pull your heads out of the sand and sort out the state of the game here in Wales which could have enticed some of our top players to stay put and help develop our rugby. Furthermore you allowed our coach to take a sabbatical and promoted the amateur backing staff after we previously suffered an autumn whitewash under them, allowing the continuation of where they left off! Our rugby is pants.

Liam Williams joins the rest, and there will be more to go I reckon.

From what I understand, the main reason that Liam has decided to go to Saracens is that his girlfriend lives and works in London, by all accounts Saracens matched the WRU offer to Liam.
So what else could the WRU have done, broken the bank to retain Liam, and then do the same for the next player and so on. From what I understand every player has his price set by Gatland and co, and they are NOT prepared to go above the valuation for ANYONE.

He has plenty of the reasons to go there to live and play for Saracens, not just the ones you've highlighted. Some of those reasons are silverware, better coaching, plenty more money and finally, the chance to play good rugby again for a team that also give 100%. Scarlets have no chance of getting silverware and this season they have often played like Wales did against Japan on Saturday, so I'm not surprised if he wishes to move. I just think that had the WRU acted years ago then we wouldn't have the issues we are currently experiencing - therefore I believe Liam will not be the last to go. Our welsh regions need to be able to offer what most teams are offering; good coaching, decent standard of rugby and a fair wage packet - we simply can't and until that is amended our national team will stay the way it is.

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Post by fa0019 on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 5:34 pm

If he's available to all sessions bar the WRU out of november money spinner then its hardly a major issue. The WRU set the rules so they themselves have to live with them.

Do you need to have the best players in Wales in Wales?

The WRU won't be paying his salary anymore... say he's on 150k GBP, well thats say 7 academy kids' contracts right there. 7 kids that can get a shot at professionalism.

Its helpful yes of course if say your 9 and 10 play together at club level but if one is at the scarlets and the other is at the blues then what does it matter if its scarlets and sarries?

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 6:08 pm

offload wrote:I heard this rumour a week ago, the BBC are now running the story.  Frankly good luck to him, why stay in Wales when he can play for the European champions and play at the highest club level.

...and get paid more. Don't forget all the carrots.

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Post by doctor_grey on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 6:33 pm

wayne wrote:
uncle_nigel wrote:So I just received an email from Twitter regarding a post from Wales Online, claiming that Liam Williams has quit Welsh Rugby and signed for an English Giant - it must be Saracens.

Well done Welsh Rugby, WRU, Welsh Regional rugby; you couldn't pull your heads out of the sand and sort out the state of the game here in Wales which could have enticed some of our top players to stay put and help develop our rugby. Furthermore you allowed our coach to take a sabbatical and promoted the amateur backing staff after we previously suffered an autumn whitewash under them, allowing the continuation of where they left off! Our rugby is pants.

Liam Williams joins the rest, and there will be more to go I reckon.

From what I understand, the main reason that Liam has decided to go to Saracens is that his girlfriend lives and works in London, by all accounts Saracens matched the WRU offer to Liam.
So what else could the WRU have done, broken the bank to retain Liam, and then do the same for the next player and so on. From what I understand every player has his price set by Gatland and co, and they are NOT prepared to go above the valuation for ANYONE.
FFS. Following one's girlfriend around like a lovelorn puppy dog is bad juju. Show some guts and represent your nation (or is it country - I am so confused). There are plenty of women out there, but only one birthplace. If she goes off to the big city, simply find another girl. Do I have to teach these young guys everything?????????

I am sure it is Saracens. They are likely the Premiership club farthest from going over the salary cap......

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Post by Heaf on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 6:57 pm

I like how you kept a straight face when you said that last bit ...

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Post by exile jack on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 7:07 pm

At least Liam will get some decent coaching and understand rugby is a 15 man game where players pass to each other.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 7:29 pm

Heaf wrote:I like how you kept a straight face when you said that last bit ...

Doctors get taught how to keep a straight face from med collage onwards; imagine telling someone who has come to see you due to problems defecating that they have an inappropriate object stuck in their back passage. Could you do it with a straight face?



A nurse I know told me about such an encounter with a patient at our local hospital, she thought it hilarious, but I suspect the patient didn't when he had to have it removed.

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Post by Gwlad on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 7:54 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
wayne wrote:
uncle_nigel wrote:So I just received an email from Twitter regarding a post from Wales Online, claiming that Liam Williams has quit Welsh Rugby and signed for an English Giant - it must be Saracens.

Well done Welsh Rugby, WRU, Welsh Regional rugby; you couldn't pull your heads out of the sand and sort out the state of the game here in Wales which could have enticed some of our top players to stay put and help develop our rugby. Furthermore you allowed our coach to take a sabbatical and promoted the amateur backing staff after we previously suffered an autumn whitewash under them, allowing the continuation of where they left off! Our rugby is pants.

Liam Williams joins the rest, and there will be more to go I reckon.

From what I understand, the main reason that Liam has decided to go to Saracens is that his girlfriend lives and works in London, by all accounts Saracens matched the WRU offer to Liam.
So what else could the WRU have done, broken the bank to retain Liam, and then do the same for the next player and so on. From what I understand every player has his price set by Gatland and co, and they are NOT prepared to go above the valuation for ANYONE.
FFS.  Following one's girlfriend around like a lovelorn puppy dog is bad juju.  Show some guts and represent your nation (or is it country - I am so confused). There are plenty of women out there, but only one birthplace.  If she goes off to the big city, simply find another girl.  Do I have to teach these young guys everything?????????

I am sure it is Saracens.  They are likely the Premiership club farthest from going over the salary cap......    

You clearly haven't seen his girlfriend.

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Post by doctor_grey on Tue 22 Nov 2016, 11:41 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Heaf wrote:I like how you kept a straight face when you said that last bit ...

Doctors get taught how to keep a straight face from med collage onwards; imagine telling someone who has come to see you due to problems defecating that they have an inappropriate object stuck in their back passage. Could you do it with a straight face?



A nurse I know told me about such an encounter with a patient at our local hospital, she thought it hilarious, but I suspect the patient didn't when he had to have it removed.
Not exactly sure how you connected Liam Williams, his girlfriend, Saracens, and a 'posterior rectal mammal-ectomy', but you get points for that (certainly the last two).

I never had to perform one of those unpleasant procedures, but I know a few docs and nurses who claim to have done so. It does remind me of working A&E one night years ago when some guy comes in complaining he hurt to urinate. The cause was obvious to all but this guy who insisted his girl was virginal and, in fact, so he said, he used two condoms. I remember the head nurse telling him, "don't be a douche. Your girl was a prostitute, no guy uses two condoms, and you are an idiot". I remember another occasion when a gent got sick after he ate his dog after it died because he loved it so much he said he never wanted to be away from it. A&E is where all the fun is.

OK, I saw a few pictures of Liam's girlfriend. Without sounding too intentionally like a retrograde male sexist animal, she is a cute thing, but I am not leaving home for her. There are more skinny pseudo-blondes on the market. I'm thinking he needs to man-up. I am sure he will learn the hard way after she throws him over for an aging Inside Centre who is also an army veteran and an orthpeadist........


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Post by Gwlad on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 12:43 am

an aging inside centre army veteran and dyslexic orthopaedist? Do you have webbed feet too?

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:06 am

Is he going to play full back? Seems an odd signing for Sarries, given they have Goode. Williams is clearly the better player, but Goode provides more creativity, which they probably lack elsewhere, while Goode also only plays full back. It would suggest Williams will be spending a fair amount of time on the wing. Perhaps not a great move for Wales in many respects.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 9:30 am

My criticism is specifically directed at those running the game here in Wales, not Liam Williams. I don't think I need to specify where it's going wrong for Welsh rugby but in case you were unaware, the bottom-down approach is a short-term solution. We are now beginning to see it do more harm.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:Is he going to play full back? Seems an odd signing for Sarries, given they have Goode. Williams is clearly the better player, but Goode provides more creativity, which they probably lack elsewhere, while Goode also only plays full back. It would suggest Williams will be spending a fair amount of time on the wing. Perhaps not a great move for Wales in many respects.

I guess that depends on Mark McCall. I personally believe Alex Goode is an average international but a very good club player, so if it came to a choice of the two for one position anywhere in the back 3 then for me Liam Williams gets the nod every time. Williams has been around for a while now playing across the back 3, I don't see how playing on the wing will be detrimental to him or the Wales team. We are actually in a good position here as it's now been proven both him and Halfpenny can slot into the back 3 and play well.

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Post by munkian on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 9:37 am

From what I've read, the WRU matched Saracen's offer but Sanjay still decided to leave so hes closer to his partner.

Im not sure how they are at fault here ?

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Post by uncle_nigel on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 9:39 am

munkian wrote:From what I've read, the WRU matched Saracen's offer but Sanjay still decided to leave so hes closer to his partner.

Im not sure how they are at fault here ?

I don't think we have the whole story yet but; Do you think that playing in Wales for a Welsh Region is an attractive proposition for any player? That should answer your question.

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Post by munkian on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 9:43 am

uncle_nigel wrote:
munkian wrote:From what I've read, the WRU matched Saracen's offer but Sanjay still decided to leave so hes closer to his partner.

Im not sure how they are at fault here ?

I don't think we have the whole story yet but; Do you think that playing in Wales for a Welsh Region is an attractive proposition for any player? That should answer your question.

Depends on the region and on the player ?

If the WRU hadn't made a matching bid then he wouldn't be captured by 'Gatland's law'.

I'd admit that the Dragons are at the bottom of the bunch but the Ospreys and Turks seem to keep attracting talent.

Again, not all blame can be placed with the WRU - the regions and Pro12 are just as poorly run.
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Post by uncle_nigel on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 9:57 am

munkian wrote:
uncle_nigel wrote:
munkian wrote:From what I've read, the WRU matched Saracen's offer but Sanjay still decided to leave so hes closer to his partner.

Im not sure how they are at fault here ?

I don't think we have the whole story yet but; Do you think that playing in Wales for a Welsh Region is an attractive proposition for any player? That should answer your question.

Depends on the region and on the player ?

If the WRU hadn't made a matching bid then he wouldn't be captured by 'Gatland's law'.

I'd admit that the Dragons are at the bottom of the bunch but the Ospreys and Turks seem to keep attracting talent.

Again, not all blame can be placed with the WRU - the regions and Pro12 are just as poorly run.

To an extent, yes, yes it does. The problem I am seeing with rugby at this level in Wales is that most of the regions, bar except Ospreys perhaps, really struggle with conditioning players up to the level required for international rugby. I don't see this as being an issue for any other top tier team. It's a major concern for me. In addition to this it seems our regions are incapable of teaching the players to play on instinct, this heads-up rugby everyone is referring to, and natural skills such as kicking, passing, carrying and work around the breakdown - the breakdown especially as Japan schooled us there! This is part of the reason why all the teams struggle to remain consistent and win silverware.  

Do Ospreys and Turks attract talent? The Irish teams can bring in Saili, Piatau and supposedly Dagg; Glasgow have now managed to bring in Rennie to be their head coach once Townsend finishes his contract at this season. You just don't see that here in Wales. I don't blame it all on the WRU, I blame all of those running Welsh rugby and that includes the regions/RRW.

Apologies if I come across as downbeat, but I think it echoes what I and a few supporters are feeling this year (and some longer). I'm very concerned about the future of our national sport.

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Post by True Raven on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 1:57 pm

uncle_nigel wrote:
munkian wrote:From what I've read, the WRU matched Saracen's offer but Sanjay still decided to leave so hes closer to his partner.

Im not sure how they are at fault here ?

I don't think we have the whole story yet but; Do you think that playing in Wales for a Welsh Region is an attractive proposition for any player? That should answer your question.

AWJ thought so, Biggar and Webb too.

His girlfriend can hardly fulfil her job living in West Wales whereas Liam can still play rugby, just in London. Rugby isnt the only thing in life

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Post by Ineffable on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 1:59 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:Is he going to play full back? Seems an odd signing for Sarries, given they have Goode. Williams is clearly the better player, but Goode provides more creativity, which they probably lack elsewhere, while Goode also only plays full back. It would suggest Williams will be spending a fair amount of time on the wing. Perhaps not a great move for Wales in many respects.

They've also got Sean Maitland who has been playing on the wing but prefers full back, and he has been playing well for them too (moving from Scotland has re-invigorated him it seems) ... so it's not like they don't have cover either. And then they've got three people likely to not be around during international windows either.

Unless Maitland or Goode are on their way out, then it makes more sense.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:02 pm

True Raven wrote:
uncle_nigel wrote:
munkian wrote:From what I've read, the WRU matched Saracen's offer but Sanjay still decided to leave so hes closer to his partner.

Im not sure how they are at fault here ?

I don't think we have the whole story yet but; Do you think that playing in Wales for a Welsh Region is an attractive proposition for any player? That should answer your question.

AWJ thought so, Biggar and Webb too.

His girlfriend can hardly fulfil her job living in West Wales whereas Liam can still play rugby, just in London.  Rugby isnt the only thing in life

Whilst there are some exceptions I think you're ignoring the point being made. You may as well say it for every single Welsh registered player when you are making such a moot point...

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 8:45 pm

munkian wrote:
uncle_nigel wrote:
munkian wrote:From what I've read, the WRU matched Saracen's offer but Sanjay still decided to leave so hes closer to his partner.

Im not sure how they are at fault here ?

I don't think we have the whole story yet but; Do you think that playing in Wales for a Welsh Region is an attractive proposition for any player? That should answer your question.

Depends on the region and on the player ?

If the WRU hadn't made a matching bid then he wouldn't be captured by 'Gatland's law'.

I'd admit that the Dragons are at the bottom of the bunch but the Ospreys and Turks seem to keep attracting talent.

Again, not all blame can be placed with the WRU - the regions and Pro12 are just as poorly run.

Multiple boxes of frogs, if ewe ask me.

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Post by TJ on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 10:11 pm

Ineffable wrote:........................... And then they've got three people likely to not be around during international windows either.

..................

Surely the point is Williams will not be selected for internationals due to Gatland rules so he is there to provide cover during international periods?

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Post by Allty on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 10:20 pm

This is simply a young man making his own decisions where he wants to work and what is best for himself and his future.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 10:50 pm

Allty wrote:This is simply a young man making his own decisions where he wants to work and what is best for himself and his future.

Until he gets married of course, meh.
Wonder if Gatland's laws/rules covers spouses and partners already. Maybe it's tucked away deep in the RSA.

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Post by Allty on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 8:53 am

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Post by uncle_nigel on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:32 am

Allty wrote:This is simply a young man making his own decisions where he wants to work and what is best for himself and his future.

Nobody has said otherwise and good luck to him; however, had Welsh domestic rugby been on par with English domestic rugby he might have postponed an inevitable move abroad for the possible 9-figure salary. I believe most players will go and end their career in somewhere like France or elsewhere where they can get a lot more money, but I'd like to think we can keep hold of these guys when they are in their prime and when Welsh domestic rugby needs their expertise the most.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 11:17 am

Gatland's Law:  

Players MUST stay with the Regions or pay the price of not being picked for Wales International.
Head Coach CAN take numerous Sabbaticals away from his Wales International job and mosey on back whenever he damn well feels like it.

A wall MUST be erected between Wales and England to stop players' families joining with or visiting Mexicanised Welsh players.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:Gatland's Law:  

Players MUST stay with the Regions or pay the price of not being picked for Wales International.
Head Coach CAN take numerous Sabbaticals away from his Wales International job and mosey on back whenever he damn well feels like it.

A wall MUST be erected between Wales and England to stop players' families joining with or visiting Mexicanised Welsh players.

Already got Offa's Dyke mun.
Oh sh!t, I just typed the word "dyke". Did it again. Could be in trouble.

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Post by miaow on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 11:35 pm

Re: girlfriend in London. It's really not that far from Wales. For a professional sportsman who has relatively large amounts of leisure time/time off, and for a model (!?) who presumably has even more, it wouldn't be that hard to maintain a decent relationship with such a distance.

However, added to the obvious benefits of playing in a proper club team that actually has room for expnsion, and wants to win things, in a competitive and attractive league, and you're getting somewhere. Add in the fact that when you're earning several hundred thoussand pounds a year, London is a very different prospect to someone in their mid 20's than West Wales is.

It is what it is. Sad loss, but imagine he'll sign up for a region/the Scarlets in the Summer of 2019 ready for the RWC.

As for the quota thing, I cannot see Roberts being selected after this season if it were a toss up between the two. I also believe Halfpenny may see this as an opportunity to return to Wales, which would leave Roberts' with a way back in. Faletau is first name on the team sheet. Unless a massive player like Webb or Biggar left, which I can't see, I think that's your 3: Liam, Roberts, Faletau. God, Roberts is uesless..

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Post by Gwlad on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:30 am

Roberts is fast becoming useless because he has been over used as a blunt instrument. He has lost yard and can be defended against by not allowing him space to get a head of steam up. He still has a place in Wlesh rugby but i think its becoming obvious that place is as bench impact in the last 1/3 until a new player comes on and shows his worth.

Who is coming through the ranks to take up the reins? We've seen various false starts from young centres but no one has staked a claim. I do think that North could be turned into a very effective 13 and that Owen Williams could do a great job at 10/12.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:35 am

Surely North over Roberts as he is now the wildcard? I'm still a little uncertain on Gatland's law as it seems to change when it's convenient for us to change it.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:37 pm

Gwlad wrote:Roberts is fast becoming useless because he has been over used as a blunt instrument. He has lost  yard and can be defended against by not allowing him space to get a head of steam up. He still has a place in Wlesh rugby but i think its becoming obvious that place is as bench impact in the last 1/3 until a new player comes on and shows his worth.

Who is coming through the ranks to take up the reins? We've seen various false starts from young centres but no one has staked a claim. I do think that North could be turned into a very effective 13 and that Owen Williams could do a great job at 10/12.

Played at 15 for the Rags.
Wonder what he would've been like at 15 for Wales?


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Post by Gwlad on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:01 pm

Roberts has no real pace, he was once a winger too but his significance is that he was picked to do a key job in Warrenball and now that is, theoretically, in the past then he has no real future at 12.
That said he is a great sub to have because he can do a job in the last 3rd. We have to go forward now with Williams and JD2.

There are some other players who are FAST approaching the end including Gethin, Warburton, and Lydiate IMO.

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:48 pm

Gwlad wrote:Roberts has no real pace, he was once a winger too but his significance is that he was picked to do a key job in Warrenball and now that is, theoretically, in the past then he has no real future at 12.
That said he is a great sub to have because he can do a job in the last 3rd. We have to go forward now with Williams and JD2.

There are some other players who are FAST approaching the end including Gethin, Warburton, and Lydiate IMO.

Think he debuted for the bloos on the wing. Then he got shifted to centre and Warrenball happened. Not sure he's ever been able to get up to full speed for Wales. Remember Joe Worsely doing a job too. Point is i'm not so sure Wales got the best out of a fine player.

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Post by Gwlad on Sat 26 Nov 2016, 1:28 am

i dont disagree but he such a big lump and the wrong side of 30; he will bench from now on unless SW falls off or is injured.
I'd like to see Owen Williams given a shot at 12 as well.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Sat 26 Nov 2016, 3:34 am

TJ wrote:
Ineffable wrote:........................... And then they've got three people likely to not be around during international windows either.

..................

Surely the point is Williams will not be selected for internationals due to Gatland rules so he is there to provide cover during international periods?


He will be though, he's gambling that no matter what he will be picked because right now he is the best back that Wales have
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Post by Guest on Sat 26 Nov 2016, 11:03 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Roberts has no real pace, he was once a winger too but his significance is that he was picked to do a key job in Warrenball and now that is, theoretically, in the past then he has no real future at 12.
That said he is a great sub to have because he can do a job in the last 3rd. We have to go forward now with Williams and JD2.

There are some other players who are FAST approaching the end including Gethin, Warburton, and Lydiate IMO.

Think he debuted for the bloos on the wing. Then he got shifted to centre and Warrenball happened. Not sure he's ever been able to get up to full speed for Wales. Remember Joe Worsely doing a job too. Point is i'm not so sure Wales got the best out of a fine player.

Fullback. He was a fullback.

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