Liam Williams to Sarries

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Post by Dontheman2 on Tue 22 Nov - 21:02

Who can blame him! Wales are particularly clueless at the moment and £600k and nearer the girlfriend sounds like a good idea. Good chance for Giles to step up, though idiotically Cuthbert will probably get a reprieve.

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Post by doctor_grey on Tue 22 Nov - 23:44


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Post by Gwlad on Wed 23 Nov - 0:46

Liam knows he is first on the sheet, he probably has a wildcard with his name on it together with Faletau. It's the others need worry.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Wed 23 Nov - 10:19

Was it actually 600K? It's reported that the WRU matched the offer, but I can't imagine them matching 600K... Not these lot.

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Post by munkian on Wed 23 Nov - 10:26

Was 300k
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Post by fa0019 on Wed 23 Nov - 10:40

Getting a bit tight now for those 3 spots.

Halfpenny, Williams, Faletau, Roberts, North, Moriarity, Charteris, Francis.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 23 Nov - 11:29

Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit. It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

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Post by fa0019 on Wed 23 Nov - 11:44

SecretFly wrote:Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit.  It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

People are having a go at the WRU... is it really valid though? should they break the bank? Does Liam Williams being in a welsh region instead of Sarries mean the performance of the national team will go down and revenues will also go down?

Take Faletau, Williams, North, Halfpenny.... that's say £1.2 million they would need to find each year for 4 players. Unions aren't exactly flush as it is.

Is it because players playing together gel better?

Well take the welsh 3/4s?

Cuthbert - blues
Williams - scarlets

How will they become more in sync with each other when they're at different clubs? No difference to

Williams  - scarlets
North - Northampton

As long as Williams gets all the squad allowances that the WRU demand bar the extra AI date which is is nothing to do with player maintenance and probably acts contrary to their conditioning (only the unions bank balance) then whats the issue?

Does strong clubs mean strong performances internationally? Use Wales vs. Ireland as an example. Ireland has a supreme club setup, Wales' is dire.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 23 Nov - 12:02

fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit.  It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

People are having a go at the WRU...

I'm not having a go.  We know only too well how tough it is for a Union like the WRU to compete with the up and up of salaries in England and France.  You have to try and chase after it to simply compete as best you can, but you can't keep going, year upon year.

My little point was specific to the idea that the WRU supposedly 'matched the offer'.  And my mind always picks up on these little things.  To me 'matching an offer' is only a soothing balm used to try and ease the concerns of fans.  'Well, we tried'.   I think I'm suggesting the Unions should simply be honest 'We couldn't afford him, so we weren't going to allow ourselves to be dragged into an extended bidding game by his agent to up his price with the other side (Saracens)'.

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Post by fa0019 on Wed 23 Nov - 12:19

SecretFly wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit.  It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

People are having a go at the WRU...

I'm not having a go.  We know only too well how tough it is for a Union like the WRU to compete with the up and up of salaries in England and France.  You have to try and chase after it to simply compete as best you can, but you can't keep going, year upon year.

My little point was specific to the idea that the WRU supposedly 'matched the offer'.  And my mind always picks up on these little things.  To me 'matching an offer' is only a soothing balm used to try and ease the concerns of fans.  'Well, we tried'.   I think I'm suggesting the Unions should simply be honest 'We couldn't afford him, so we weren't going to allow ourselves to be dragged into an extended bidding game by his agent to up his price with the other side (Saracens)'.

I think its fair though... i mean they've taken stick, the initial blog was a handclap and a sarcastic "well done to the WRU". The fans are unhappy.

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Post by Cyril on Wed 23 Nov - 12:22

fly,

As I understand it, the WRU have to 'match the offer' made from non-Welsh 'clubs' or the player doesn't fall under 'Gatland's Law'. If they don't match the offer then the player is exempt and doesn't have to rely on a wildcard. Hence the public (at least) show of having done all they can. Whether 'Gatland's Law' is a good idea or necessary is another matter.

On fa's point, isn't part of the plan of holding onto players a view to keeping the regions strong?

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 23 Nov - 12:26

The Welsh fans (many of them if not most of them) are Always unhappy with the WRU. Wink Many of them think it an anti-Welsh rugby outfit out to kill off grassroots rugby traditions and competitiveness.

My only query would be that the personnel at WRU have changed in recent years and it was claimed the new boys are all old school die-hard club men who know rugby and want what's best for the game at International AND club level.

But it seems that honeymoon period ended months ago.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Wed 23 Nov - 12:29

fa0019 wrote:
People are having a go at the WRU... is it really valid though? should they break the bank? Does Liam Williams being in a welsh region instead of Sarries mean the performance of the national team will go down and revenues will also go down?

But it's not about just breaking the bank and you seem to be overlooking that when numerous people have alluded to the WRU not running the game properly for a few years, stating many reasons besides cash. If he's not a wildcard choice then yes as we lose one of our best players. If the national team aren't playing that well then supporters won't turn up to a live game thus having a knock-on affect on revenue - which has been this case this autumn.

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Post by fa0019 on Wed 23 Nov - 12:31

The WRU certainly have their bad points to them.

I mean how did they manage to sell only 56,000 tickets for Australia, 50,000 to Argentina but 74,000 tickets for Japan?

I imagine price has a big determinant in the above figures unless their were some major developments going on the first 2 matches which prevented a use of a stand for example?
Could they really have got the ticketing that bad?

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Post by fa0019 on Wed 23 Nov - 12:34

uncle_nigel wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
People are having a go at the WRU... is it really valid though? should they break the bank? Does Liam Williams being in a welsh region instead of Sarries mean the performance of the national team will go down and revenues will also go down?

But it's not about just breaking the bank and you seem to be overlooking that when numerous people have alluded to the WRU not running the game properly for a few years, stating many reasons besides cash. If he's not a wildcard choice then yes as we lose one of our best players. If the national team aren't playing that well then supporters won't turn up to a live game thus having a knock-on affect on revenue - which has been this case this autumn.

I agree but thats down to the ruling no? The 3 wildcards rule.

I think now it will dry up for sure as now we will see Gatland and co being forced to make a choice between Williams, North, Faletau, Roberts, Moriarity etc every game.

Faletau and North and locked in.... so who else is confident they'd get game time?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 23 Nov - 12:49

fa0019 wrote:
uncle_nigel wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
People are having a go at the WRU... is it really valid though? should they break the bank? Does Liam Williams being in a welsh region instead of Sarries mean the performance of the national team will go down and revenues will also go down?

But it's not about just breaking the bank and you seem to be overlooking that when numerous people have alluded to the WRU not running the game properly for a few years, stating many reasons besides cash. If he's not a wildcard choice then yes as we lose one of our best players. If the national team aren't playing that well then supporters won't turn up to a live game thus having a knock-on affect on revenue - which has been this case this autumn.

I agree but thats down to the ruling no? The 3 wildcards rule.

I think now it will dry up for sure as now we will see Gatland and co being forced to make a choice between Williams, North, Faletau, Roberts, Moriarity etc every game.

Faletau and North and locked in.... so who else is confident they'd get game time?

4 wildcards for next season, and then it will drop again.
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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Nov - 13:14

fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit.  It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

People are having a go at the WRU... is it really valid though? should they break the bank? Does Liam Williams being in a welsh region instead of Sarries mean the performance of the national team will go down and revenues will also go down?

Take Faletau, Williams, North, Halfpenny.... that's say £1.2 million they would need to find each year for 4 players. Unions aren't exactly flush as it is.

Is it because players playing together gel better?

Well take the welsh 3/4s?

Cuthbert - blues
Williams - scarlets

How will they become more in sync with each other when they're at different clubs? No difference to

Williams  - scarlets
North - Northampton

As long as Williams gets all the squad allowances that the WRU demand bar the extra AI date which is is nothing to do with player maintenance and probably acts contrary to their conditioning (only the unions bank balance) then whats the issue?

Does strong clubs mean strong performances internationally? Use Wales vs. Ireland as an example. Ireland has a supreme club setup, Wales' is dire.

Negative side of him going:

The Regions are weakened. One of the best players is lost, adding to the gradual decline and matched decline in fan interest. If that continues it will affect the ability to bring through players at all, and potentially knock on to interest in the national team which is the cash cow.

He wont be availabel for release oustide of the window. Yes that one.

It takes up anotehr of the *wildcard* spots. The more players who go the more that has the potential to bite. It may seem like a self harming policy but its done to help restrict players desire to move in the first place.



When it really comes down to it though Welsh players are ripe for the pickings for Jeff clubs, especially where it goives them better control and access of them than they would get from an EPS player. The WRU are doing their best to stick their fingers in the wholes in the damn but players will continue to escpae, they simply wont ever be able to match the money and potential trophies of clubs like Saracens.

The positive is it leaves one more opportunity for another talkented youngster to get a place in the pro game and possibly bcome the next great exile. This is the reality Wales have faced for some years, and its still nothing on what happens to the likes of Fiji ...who still continue to churn out quality players.

To my mind theres not a lot else than can do, certainly not get into a bidding war. By matching the salary they are sticking the ball in the players court, making it seem like they had a straight choice and wouldnt lose out but turned their back on the country.

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Post by uncle_nigel on Wed 23 Nov - 13:24

fa0019 wrote:The WRU certainly have their bad points to them.

I mean how did they manage to sell only 56,000 tickets for Australia, 50,000 to Argentina but 74,000 tickets for Japan?

I imagine price has a big determinant in the above figures unless their were some major developments going on the first 2 matches which prevented a use of a stand for example?
Could they really have got the ticketing that bad?

Probably because we're crap and nobody wanted a live seat watching Aus smash us (which was inevitable as soon as our lineup was announced). For the Japan game I imagine the tickets were cheap and even cheaper for kids hence there being a lot of families watching - this usually happens when we play these supposed minnows...

I personally do believe the tickets are a little expensive. I know a few people who after that Aus game said they would never again pay that much money to watch a crap team. The attendance has been up and down for a few seasons now, mostly in the autumn.

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Post by wayne on Wed 23 Nov - 15:18

fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit.  It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

People are having a go at the WRU... is it really valid though? should they break the bank? Does Liam Williams being in a welsh region instead of Sarries mean the performance of the national team will go down and revenues will also go down?

Take Faletau, Williams, North, Halfpenny.... that's say £1.2 million they would need to find each year for 4 players. Unions aren't exactly flush as it is.

Is it because players playing together gel better?

Well take the welsh 3/4s?

Cuthbert - blues
Williams - scarlets

How will they become more in sync with each other when they're at different clubs? No difference to

Williams  - scarlets
North - Northampton

As long as Williams gets all the squad allowances that the WRU demand bar the extra AI date which is is nothing to do with player maintenance and probably acts contrary to their conditioning (only the unions bank balance) then whats the issue?

Does strong clubs mean strong performances internationally? Use Wales vs. Ireland as an example. Ireland has a supreme club setup, Wales' is dire.

2 glaring errors there fa, SS later on clears one up, the other is the WRU don't pay £300k for each player, they pay 60% of what the WRU reckon each player is worth. So for those 4 it is £720k, the Region that takes the available player pays the remaining 40%.
As SS comments on, the following season will be the problem, when the number outside of Wales drops to 2.

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Post by fa0019 on Wed 23 Nov - 15:27

I agree wayne that the wildcard issues has its problems and personally I don't think its a good strategy but thats not to do with the financing of players.

So the WRU only pays 60% of funds. Of the 40% that comes from the unions... how much are the unions financed by the WRU?

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Post by wayne on Wed 23 Nov - 15:28

SecretFly wrote:Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit.  It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

Fly, why pay an extra penny to him, when the likes of AWJ, and WRUburton only have the £300k, start with that and then Halfpenny will want £310k, and so on. He knows the limit moneywise and the numbers eligible to be picked, if he is prepared to take the risk all well and good. Don't forget if Liam has as been reported only taken from Saracens what the WRU have offered, if he is one of the players NOT selected he foregoes any payments that he could accrue from playing for Wales, which I can assure you are not a pittance.
I don't blame him one little bit if it is in his best interests and only he will know this.

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Post by wayne on Wed 23 Nov - 15:34

fa0019 wrote:I agree wayne that the wildcard issues has its problems and personally I don't think its a good strategy but thats not to do with the financing of players.

So the WRU only pays 60% of funds. Of the 40% that comes from the unions... how much are the unions financed by the WRU?

I think you mean Regions in the 2nd part there, apart from the payments that are part of the RSA between the WRU and PRW, the WRU pay nothing of the 40%. As it turns out my team have gained significantly from these NDCs, some warranted others NOT.

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Post by munkian on Wed 23 Nov - 15:36

fa0019 wrote:I agree wayne that the wildcard issues has its problems and personally I don't think its a good strategy but thats not to do with the financing of players.

So the WRU only pays 60% of funds. Of the 40% that comes from the unions... how much are the unions financed by the WRU?

Not this again...
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Post by wayne on Wed 23 Nov - 15:42

munkian wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I agree wayne that the wildcard issues has its problems and personally I don't think its a good strategy but thats not to do with the financing of players.

So the WRU only pays 60% of funds. Of the 40% that comes from the unions... how much are the unions financed by the WRU?

Not this again...

Agreed Munkian, this has been explained by myself a number of times, as well as MANY others.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 23 Nov - 15:46

wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit.  It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

Fly, why pay an extra penny to him, when the likes of AWJ, and WRUburton only have the £300k, start with that and then Halfpenny will want £310k, and so on. He knows the limit moneywise and the numbers eligible to be picked, if he is prepared to take the risk all well and good. Don't forget if Liam has as been reported only taken from Saracens what the WRU have offered, if he is one of the players NOT selected he foregoes any payments that he could accrue from playing for Wales, which I can assure you are not a pittance.
I don't blame him one little bit if it is in his best interests and only he will know this.

I think the agents are beginning to call the shots more and more (hello football). And these guys have no allegiances or career aims, all they have is the desire to get the best full-on price for their player so that their percentage is bigger. So undoubtedly they whisper in the ear of their clients and downplay any concerns the player himself might have to get his name signed to the highest bid. Deal done - on to the next client to try to formulate a high price for him.


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Post by wayne on Wed 23 Nov - 15:46

Have to say Gatland and/or Lewis have been very cute 16/17 3 players, 17/18 4 players, 18/19 2 players and then Gatland leaves, leaving the incumbent having to pick up the mess.

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Post by wayne on Wed 23 Nov - 16:19

SecretFly wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Should have tried 300K and a penny.

I'm always curious about this 'matching their offer' bit.  It's kind of a sign that tells you you can go 'but we're going to give ourselves a press excuse to claim we tried.'

Fly, why pay an extra penny to him, when the likes of AWJ, and WRUburton only have the £300k, start with that and then Halfpenny will want £310k, and so on. He knows the limit moneywise and the numbers eligible to be picked, if he is prepared to take the risk all well and good. Don't forget if Liam has as been reported only taken from Saracens what the WRU have offered, if he is one of the players NOT selected he foregoes any payments that he could accrue from playing for Wales, which I can assure you are not a pittance.
I don't blame him one little bit if it is in his best interests and only he will know this.

I think the agents are beginning to call the shots more and more (hello football).  And these guys have no allegiances or career aims, all they have is the desire to get the best full-on price for their player so that their percentage is bigger.  So undoubtedly they whisper in the ear of their clients and downplay any concerns the player himself might have to get his name signed to the highest bid.  Deal done - on to the next client to try to formulate a high price for him.

Yes Fly that would happen if YOU were prepared to pay the extra PENNY, thankfully I'm with the WRU on this £300k and not a penny more.
It was mentioned a while back at the time of Faletau leaving that an extra 25k would ensure his staying, if it was true I personally would have been against that as well. Also somebody above said that the WRU are getting some stick over this episode. Well NOT from me, as good a player as Liam is, he is NOT an AWJ and not even a Faletau.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 23 Nov - 16:26

I wasn't saying the WRU should pay the blasted penny, Wayne! Cool  The opposite in fact, I was telling them to be more blunt about the fact that they weren't going to pay it.  Don't say 'we matched the offer' - just say 'we weren't going to play a bidding game that we'd always lose'.

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Post by wayne on Wed 23 Nov - 16:39

SecretFly wrote:I wasn't saying the WRU should pay the blasted penny, Wayne!  Cool   The opposite in fact, I was telling them to be more blunt about the fact that they weren't going to pay it.  Don't say 'we matched the offer' - just say 'we weren't going to play a bidding game that we'd always lose'.

That's all right then Fly kiss

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Wed 23 Nov - 19:41

Spose this means that Halfpenny will be back to Cardiff on an NDC thingy.

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