England vs Australia

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Post by nathan on Sun 27 Nov 2016, 6:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

Billy out for 3-4 months.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 4:39 pm

One game at a time!

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Post by trebellbobaggins on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 4:52 pm

After a poor start that was an outstanding second half. Good stuff to have all those chnages yet finish 4-0 over Aussie.

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Post by king_carlos on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 4:53 pm

uncle_nigel wrote:
mid_gen wrote:

Looking forward to the whole 6N and not taking anything for granted but a grand slam decider last on super Saturday in Ireland is going to be amazing.

That'll most likely be your second game in the championship...

France are finally looking up with Guirado leading by example really well. Picamoles looking back to his best has helped too and Huget returning will be a boost for them.

Scotland are continuing to improve and have Dickinson and Nel to return to their scrum. Having Dunbar/Scott and Jones/Bennett competing in midfield should finally help them put some more consistent back play together.

I'd also back O'Shea (accompanied by Venter) to keep Italy on an upward curve.

Wales whilst poor for much of the AIs usually play much better in the 6 Nations and will always be hard to break down at the Millennium.

Personally I think it's going to be a really interesting 6 Nations!

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Post by trebellbobaggins on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 4:56 pm

uncle_nigel wrote:
mid_gen wrote:

Looking forward to the whole 6N and not taking anything for granted but a grand slam decider last on super Saturday in Ireland is going to be amazing.

That'll most likely be your second game in the championship...

Do you mean you think England can only win 2 games in the 6N?

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Post by doctor_grey on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't see that 2nd half coming; nerves went, silly mistakes gone, just squeezed them and pulled away. Yet again everyonne chipped in.

That's the critical quality of this team!

They can let anyone throw the kitchen sink at them..and they just take it and slowly just start grinding teams down....
To me that's the sign of a good team. Opposing teams take their best shots. Let that pass, and grind it out. Seriously. This really is becoming a really good team. Odd because it sometimes doesn't quite feel that way.

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Post by nathan on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:02 pm

have to say one of the biggest changes in this team compared to Lancasters. The ability to finish off moves without knocking it on.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:06 pm

Yeah they seem to have the ability to take the chances and strike quickly!

Like a cobra! Laugh

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Post by Gwlad on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:09 pm

All these personnel were available a year ago, just shows what England might have achieved with a proper coach. Big question is when do they play NZ.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:09 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't see that 2nd half coming; nerves went, silly mistakes gone, just squeezed them and pulled away. Yet again everyonne chipped in.

That's the critical quality of this team!

They can let anyone throw the kitchen sink at them..and they just take it and slowly just start grinding teams down....
To me that's the sign of a good team.  Opposing teams take their best shots.  Let that pass, and grind it out.  Seriously.  This really is becoming a really good team.  Odd because it sometimes doesn't quite feel that way.  

Yeah I agree doc.....doesn't help the old ticker though...there was a few squeaky bum moments today....

But yes in general they have been in control defensively...and once they've soaked it up they start to enforce their game on the opposition.

Dare I say not unlike a team in black not that far from Australia...only our handling and lines of running isn't quite that good yet.....

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:12 pm

Gwlad wrote:All these personnel were available a year ago, just shows what England might have achieved with a proper coach. Big question is when do they play NZ.

Well I think it shows what a great coach can do to any team. Worth the money to have a top coach.

But I still think Lancaster deserves a lot of praise. He pretty much put this team together when they had zero caps etc...he just struggled to take it that step further (and I'm not sure what really happened through the WC) ...which Eddie has the experience of doing.


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Post by Scottrf on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:16 pm

Gwlad wrote:All these personnel were available a year ago, just shows what England might have achieved with a proper coach. Big question is when do they play NZ.
Not Hughes Wink

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Post by doctor_grey on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't see that 2nd half coming; nerves went, silly mistakes gone, just squeezed them and pulled away. Yet again everyonne chipped in.

That's the critical quality of this team!

They can let anyone throw the kitchen sink at them..and they just take it and slowly just start grinding teams down....
To me that's the sign of a good team.  Opposing teams take their best shots.  Let that pass, and grind it out.  Seriously.  This really is becoming a really good team.  Odd because it sometimes doesn't quite feel that way.  

Yeah I agree doc.....doesn't help the old ticker though...there was a few squeaky bum moments today....

But yes in general they have been in control defensively...and once they've soaked it up they start to enforce their game on the opposition.

Dare I say not unlike a team in black not that far from Australia...only our handling and lines of running isn't quite that good yet.....
but closer. Closer every game, we get one step closer. And when that game finally happens, we will certainly need our heart medication!

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Post by milkyboy on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:20 pm

Thinks Youngs was the right call for MOM(not often I agree with Stuart Barnes) but he helped pick the tempo up and turn the tide. JJ took a couple of opportunist tries which is a great knack to have, but for all his generally good defensive display, he missed a straightforward tackle on folau that led to the kefu try.

This England team miss tackles and look mediocre for fair chunks of most of their matches at the moment, but they have this resilience, and excellent game management, they usually take the chances presented... priceless commodities... almost all black like. Key players are missing and you barely notice.

I keep thinking we've rode our luck, got the rub of a few crucial decisions, but it keeps happening. I used to think we were unlucky and rarely got the rub with the refs. Maybe this is a pretty good side and you make your own luck.

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:32 pm

milkyboy wrote:Thinks Youngs was the right call for MOM(not often I agree with Stuart  Barnes) but he helped pick the tempo up and turn the tide. JJ took a couple of opportunist tries which is a great knack to have, but for all his generally good defensive display, he missed a straightforward tackle on folau that led to the kefu try.

This England team miss tackles and look mediocre for fair chunks of most of their matches at the moment, but they have this resilience, and excellent game management, they usually take the chances presented... priceless commodities... almost all black like. Key players are missing and you barely notice.

I keep thinking we've rode our luck, got the rub of a few crucial decisions, but it keeps happening. I used to think we were unlucky and rarely got the rub with the refs. Maybe this is a pretty good side and you make your own luck.

Hmmm - there is that old Gary Player quote (much used elsewhere) about the funny thing being the more he practiced the luckier he got..

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Post by Exiledinborders on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:39 pm

lostinwales wrote:
milkyboy wrote:Thinks Youngs was the right call for MOM(not often I agree with Stuart  Barnes) but he helped pick the tempo up and turn the tide. JJ took a couple of opportunist tries which is a great knack to have, but for all his generally good defensive display, he missed a straightforward tackle on folau that led to the kefu try.

This England team miss tackles and look mediocre for fair chunks of most of their matches at the moment, but they have this resilience, and excellent game management, they usually take the chances presented... priceless commodities... almost all black like. Key players are missing and you barely notice.

I keep thinking we've rode our luck, got the rub of a few crucial decisions, but it keeps happening. I used to think we were unlucky and rarely got the rub with the refs. Maybe this is a pretty good side and you make your own luck.

Hmmm - there is that old Gary Player quote (much used elsewhere) about the funny thing being the more he practiced the luckier he got..
That's right. The more aggressive the defence the more lucky tries a team scores. Sarries have become the most successful team in Europe largely based on lucky tries.

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Post by Poorfour on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:52 pm

Not getting the praise for Hughes on this board. In the stadium, he looked out of his depth.

Still, a great win and a great way to end the season
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Post by trebellbobaggins on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:55 pm

I felt Hughes grew into it really well.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:57 pm

Poorfour

On the tv, I didn't get it in the first half, but he seemed to grow physically in the second half....he was a monster. It was like he had put the feelers out, got nailed a few times, changed his strategy in the second and nailed it himself.

But then to be fair...I could say that about a number of the players...

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Post by mid_gen on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 6:03 pm

He's a different player to Billy. Billy just uses his bulk and strength and smahes through people. Hughes uses his fend and athleticism a lot more.

Different approaches, but same outcomes. Regularly tying in multiple defenders and busting the gain line at will

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 6:08 pm

Yeah Billy is interesting. He's so predictable and basic...and yet no-one can deal with him. A great player.

And i think Hughes showed he will have a big challenger over the next few years. Maybe Hughes can cover 6 aswell!




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Post by trebellbobaggins on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 7:13 pm

Hughes is an exciting prospect.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 12:40 am

the best thing about this England side under Jones is that it feels like there is so much left to grow and to come
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Post by Cumbrian on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 7:49 am

I am reminded of how I used to feel before England games in the early 2000s, I'd look forward to most games rather than be sickeningly nervous about them! This team isn't at that level yet, but they are so much younger than the 2003 team were, they have got massive room to grow (as CJ says) and a production line that keeps bringing through better and more skillful players. It isn't about a 'golden generation' anymore, this is simply the level of players the youth system is producing.

If this is managed carefully we really could be challenging the All Blacks for the number one spot in the coming years.
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Post by Cumbrian on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 7:53 am

As an aside, I had a friendly argument with my friend about Yarde's touch down. It wasn't a knock on. he tapped it forward with one hand and dotted down with the other before it hit the ground. If that is a knock-on it is a knock-on every time a player juggles the ball and regathers. Smile
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Post by ebop on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 8:53 am

Well done England for this year, fantastic effort
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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:02 am

Farrell's goalkicking was important in this match. Just as in Brisbane, his penalties kept us in touch when Australia had the upper hand, to the extent that one breakway try gave us a lead against the run of play.

Our big lead didn't look so big when Kepu went over but Farrell's conversions meant Foley had to kick his to put us under pressure, and he missed.

George Ford's penalty miss later in the game from a relatively easy spot shows there's a talent gap, so that's a point to address in the future.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:15 am

Ford is a problem is that regard, he's not always going to have Farrell there to babysit him.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 11:07 am

If Farrell isn't playing then would Slade not be an option at 12?

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 11:38 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:If Farrell isn't playing then would Slade not be an option at 12?


If Farrell isn't playing then England would be in trouble. Ford is all right at ten but his goal kicking at international level is not good enough.

England need a reliable goal kicker, who that is not sure to be honest. How good is Slades kicking?

Daliy kicked a good goal would he be the next goal kicker?

England need a second goal kicker in time for the 6 nations.

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Post by rozakthegoon on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 12:08 pm

Just rewatched: I wonder if Eddie told a few players at half time this was their time to impress, and reminded them who was to come back from injury/who is pushing their way through the ranks from youth teams? Wood certainly came out like a man on a mission!

Lawes was immense, and woods one handed pick and go was a sign of the confidence the team have how. Great game I tbought

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Post by doctor_grey on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 12:27 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:If Farrell isn't playing then would Slade not be an option at 12?


If Farrell isn't playing then England would be in trouble. Ford is all right at ten but his goal kicking at international level is not good enough.

England need a reliable goal kicker, who that is not sure to be honest. How good is Slades kicking?

Daliy kicked a good goal would he be the next goal kicker?

England need a second goal kicker in time for the 6 nations.
England will certainly need a kicker if Farrell is not playing. The first one to mind, as you said, is Daly. However, let's say in the first 6 Nations match Daly is playing and so is Farrell. Would you give Daly the kicking duties ahead of Farrell? Just to see if he has the ability to do it consistently at that level?

Will be interesting to see how Eddie Jones manages this.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 12:37 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:...England need a second goal kicker in time for the 6 nations...
I always thought Lancaster's back-up kicking plans were a bit half-arsed. Twelvetrees & Goode were options but they soon found themselves out of match day 23, so we often went in with just the reserve flyhalf as the only alternative.

We've now got Malinder, Daly and Slade on the radar but none are certain to play for Jones, so the problem hasn't been fully addressed yet.

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Post by milkyboy on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 4:43 pm

Cumbrian wrote:As an aside, I had a friendly argument with my friend about Yarde's touch down.  It wasn't a knock on. he tapped it forward with one hand and dotted down with the other before it hit the ground.  If that is a knock-on it is a knock-on every time a player juggles the ball and regathers. Smile

I thought the TMO stated that his left hand never left contact with the ball (not sure I agree)... seeming to give that as the reason it wasn't a knock on?

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:27 pm

It would be good if we had two 80% kickers, but I think Ford's overall game is coming along so well, even if Farrell wasn't available I wouldn't try to shoehorn another kicker into the team at the expense of a better rugby player who couldn't kick (e.g. putting Daly or Slade in ahead of Joseph purely for kicking).

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Post by rozakthegoon on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:33 pm

robbo277 wrote:It would be good if we had two 80% kickers, but I think Ford's overall game is coming along so well, even if Farrell wasn't available I wouldn't try to shoehorn another kicker into the team at the expense of a better rugby player who couldn't kick (e.g. putting Daly or Slade in ahead of Joseph purely for kicking).

Ford is also young. He may just need to click in confidence with his kindling and it may come soon(I know others arecsame age or younger, but people mature psychologically at different ages don't they. Despite his beautiful silky skills Jeff pressure, I think he still has that look of a kid in his eye which, say, Farrell doesn't. I think daly seems the same and maybe the red card will speed up his maturity)

You'd imagine ford is grafting on his place kicking currently, he's certainly a gifted lad, you'd hope he'd learn some new tricks/skills to focus on gettIng the ball between the sticks in internationals in future

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:42 pm

Slade is the next best goal kicker in the squad so I'd presume he'd be next in line to take over if Farrell were injured.

Te'o getting game time in the centres is interesting though. It seems to imply that Jones is placing priority on developing different tactical options in his midfield rather than just sticking with what's working.

If the coaches felt certain that a second play maker at 12 was the way forward then I'd presume that Slade would have been getting game time first to offer a replacement for Farrell at 12 in case of injury.

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Post by George Carlin on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:46 pm

I was going to post this in the 'overrated players' thread and then figured that this might be too inflammatory, so decided not to. 

What I did want to say was that when George Ford came on the pro scene, the sheer volume of man juice sprayed asunder about him was staggering. As a neutral fan, I was put on notice almost monthly that it would just be a matter of time before the cream floated to the top and Ford would demonstrate, given half the chance, his superiority to Farrell in every respect in both the domestic and international arenas. Farrell was, in effect, just keeping the throne warm for the time that the child prodigy would be duly anointed. I'm serious. The hype was practically deafening.

It genuinely interests me that this simply does not seem to have happened and I have to express some reservations as to whether it ever will. Farrell has been strong defensively, sound tactically and is a critically effective goalkicker. I have no truck or agenda with either player, but I do not believe that Ford is better than Farrell in any respect. Ford would be my first name on the team sheet at no. 22 but would I jettison the rapier of Slade or the hammer of Tualagi in order to let Ford play at 12 in the starting line up?

Not a chance. Farrell and Sexton will be the first two names on the Lions squad backs division and quite rightly. I'm sure it is an argument that the difference between the two 10s is that Farrell plays for a club side which has been far more successful recently than Ford's. That may be true, but I think that there is more than that at play here.
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Post by lostinwales on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 5:53 pm

I get what you are saying about Ford. Sometimes its hard to get a feel for anything tangible that he brings to the side.

The funny thing is though that the back division looks infinitely more dangerous with him in place, even with Farrell not doing a great deal at 12.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 6:00 pm

I'd actually say the only thing Farrell does better is goal kicking, Ford is better in almost every other aspect, rarely misses tackles, creativity, tactical know how, kicking from hand and passing are all far superior.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 6:09 pm

As well as he goal/place kicking Ford needs to practice his drop kicking. His kicking from hand to the corners is spot on. pitty his drop goals arn't.

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Post by Poorfour on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 6:55 pm

Ford's goal kicking is off this season but in previous seasons when he's been the primary kicker he's done very well. I think his awareness of space is better than Farrell's and he runs an attacking game better. Farrell, though, is great at seeing space to kick into and putting England in the right part of the park. They work well in combo, because Farrell's defence is good enough to cope with crash ball 12s.

For Farrell to play 10 without England adopting a more conservative game, he needs a creator at 9 or 12. Care and Farrell worked really well in 2014 (and I was stunned that Lancaster never used them together in the RWC); Farrell and Slade or Farrell and Mallinder could both be interesting to try.

But the really great thing here is that all of those combinations are genuine possibilities.
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Post by Exiledinborders on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 6:57 pm

George Carlin wrote:I was going to post this in the 'overrated players' thread and then figured that this might be too inflammatory, so decided not to. 

What I did want to say was that when George Ford came on the pro scene, the sheer volume of man juice sprayed asunder about him was staggering. As a neutral fan, I was put on notice almost monthly that it would just be a matter of time before the cream floated to the top and Ford would demonstrate, given half the chance, his superiority to Farrell in every respect in both the domestic and international arenas. Farrell was, in effect, just keeping the throne warm for the time that the child prodigy would be duly anointed. I'm serious. The hype was practically deafening.

It genuinely interests me that this simply does not seem to have happened and I have to express some reservations as to whether it ever will. Farrell has been strong defensively, sound tactically and is a critically effective goalkicker. I have no truck or agenda with either player, but I do not believe that Ford is better than Farrell in any respect. Ford would be my first name on the team sheet at no. 22 but would I jettison the rapier of Slade or the hammer of Tualagi in order to let Ford play at 12 in the starting line up?

Not a chance. Farrell and Sexton will be the first two names on the Lions squad backs division and quite rightly. I'm sure it is an argument that the difference between the two 10s is that Farrell plays for a club side which has been far more successful recently than Ford's. That may be true, but I think that there is more than that at play here.
I disagree. Subject to two provisos Ford is the best ten in the Northern Hemisphere. The provisos are pretty big ones though.
- He is a bloody hopeless place kicker so can only play if Farrell or another place kicker is in the team.
- He is great behind a pack that is dominant. Behind a struggling pack he is awful.

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 7:19 pm

We were the only team in the "pool of death" to get a TBP against Fiji, that was with Ford at 10 before he was inexplicably dropped and the tries tried up (2 in 2 games). Yes, the opposition got tougher, but I think he gets our backline moving better than Farrell does from 10, and I'd be willing to bet we score more tries with Ford at 10, even adjusting for opposition etc.

Ignoring the Uruguay game (where he also played 10), England scored 31 tries in the last 2 Six Nations with Ford at 10 (26 [84%] through the backs). In the summer we managed 5 against Wales and 9 in 3 in Australia, which is decent away from home (and all of them coming after minute 28 in T1, when Ford was returned to the team) and we scored 19 in 4 over the autumn (or 10 in 3 ignoring Fiji).

From the start of 2015, we've therefore scored 78 tries in 20 games, or 59 in 18 games if you discount Uruguay 2015 (10 tries) and Fiji 2016 (9 tries) if we remove the outliers. That's an average of over 3 tries a game.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 7:33 pm

To be fair, weren't two of the tries in the Fiji game scored once Farrell had come on for Ford? Certainly the last one was, and I distinctly recall England looking better in that game with Farrell on the pitch. Still, it's true that in general Ford is better at bringing the backline into play than Farrell is, and that England look a more dangerous side ball in hand with him in the side.

His kicking when he first displaced Farrell from the England side was decent I think (in the 2015 6N), certainly in the France game at the end he kicked everything, including a couple of touchline conversions. OK he's not as good a kicker as Farrell (not many are TBH), but he's normally OK. His last three games for England where he's taken kicks - Wales, Fiji and Aus - he's been pretty shocking though, and I wonder if that might be a confidence issue as much as anything...

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Post by milkyboy on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:10 pm

Agree with mfc here, it looks like a confidence thing for ford with his place kicking... and whilst it's a distinct and isolated part of the game, the confidence aspect worries me more than a few missed kicks. We do look more fluid in attack with him orchestrating things, but Farrell is more the guy you'd want in the trenches with you. To counter that, he's had discipline issues, and ford has started to show greater consistency. Funny how lancaster was lambasted for playing Farrell at 12 and now he looks undroppable.

Historically I always thought Farrell was under-rated and ford over-rated, but Farrell gets his dues now and Ford seems to have settled in to life as an international and is showing his ability.

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Post by rozakthegoon on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:39 pm

Ford seems to do things without needing time to think that others need at least a half second for.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:42 pm

rozakthegoon wrote:Ford seems to do things without needing time to think that others need at least a half second for.

It's good stuff okay.... but I don't sell it Whistle

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 10:19 am

The Times ratings for all players to feature for at least 40 minutes across all four AIs:

Brown 7
Goode 5
May 8
Yarde 6
Roku 5
Daly 7
JJ 9
Farrell 8
Te'o 6
Ford 8
Youngs 9
Care 6
Mako 8
Marler 7
Hartley 7
George 7
Cole 7
Sinkler 7
Lawes 9
Launchbury 8
Kruis 8
Robshaw 9
Wood 8
Harrison 6
BillyV 9
Hughes 8


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Post by lostinwales on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 10:29 am

LondonTiger wrote:The Times ratings for all players to feature for at least 40 minutes across all four AIs:

Brown 7
Goode 5
May 8
Yarde 6
Roku 5
Daly 7
JJ 9
Farrell 8
Te'o 6
Ford 8
Youngs 9
Care 6
Mako 8
Marler 7
Hartley 7
George 7
Cole 7
Sinkler 7
Lawes 9
Launchbury 8
Kruis 8
Robshaw 9
Wood 8
Harrison 6
BillyV 9
Hughes 8


Not bad. Roko gets a raw deal.

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Post by cb on Mon 05 Dec 2016, 10:36 am

Yes, How come Roku gets 5 when he played just one match and was considered MoM in some quarters?

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