England vs Australia

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Billy out for 3-4 months.

Well Hughes it is at 8 then.

And probably Harrison on in the second half when Hughes starts to tire....

And Harrison at No8 worries me, especially at scrum time - but in general he looks (to me) rather underpowered.

Worries me totally at 8 LT. In my opinion he's a 6/7 . The scrum looked wrong with him at 8 on Saturday.

I agree he looks underpowered. Though I did think he played ok on Saturday...just focused on tackling round the fringes and hitting the rucks.

Harrison at 8 worries me too, I think it's just a bit too soon for him in international rugby. Hughes is definitely the next cab off the rank, though Morgan always seemed to play well for England.

Would I gamble on Clifford on the bench over Harrison? I'd be very tempted.

I'd keep Slade on the bench, he actually came on at fullback and put in some really good tackles.

Billy is generally very durable and normally runs 80 mins every match, so its not surprising that there was no specialist 8 cover on the bench. Harrison ended up at 8 by default only. He certainly won't be starting next week. If Clifford's head injury is cleared he may not even make it to the bench.

beshocked wrote:I watched the match live so I don't understand your snide comment.

There is a difference, one player can be the difference between winning and losing.

Losing Billy is a massive blow that might well have been avoided by giving him a rest instead of starting him again and again.

It's about familiarity and continuity. Hughes has not started in the England pack yet. It's also about being on the same wavelength.

England lost a lineout vs Argentina as soon as Kruis went off because the well oiled lineout had been broken by a replacement. I thought it was baffling to take off Kruis then, fortunately England weren't punished.

As for May I thought he was poor in the 2015 6 nations, even Lancaster agreed hence replacing him. Mediocre in the RWC and 2014 6 nations - 5/10.

What do you want me to say? I am acknowledging when I thought May played well.

Geordiefalcon that's what I would do.

I think the injury to Billy was avoidable but in the circumstances England should start Morgan for his experience and because he played well vs Saracens.

When did Kruis go off anyway? Must have been very late in the game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:I watched the match live so I don't understand your snide comment.

There is a difference, one player can be the difference between winning and losing.

Losing Billy is a massive blow that might well have been avoided by giving him a rest instead of starting him again and again.

It's about familiarity and continuity. Hughes has not started in the England pack yet. It's also about being on the same wavelength.

England lost a lineout vs Argentina as soon as Kruis went off because the well oiled lineout had been broken by a replacement. I thought it was baffling to take off Kruis then, fortunately England weren't punished.

As for May I thought he was poor in the 2015 6 nations, even Lancaster agreed hence replacing him. Mediocre in the RWC and 2014 6 nations - 5/10.

What do you want me to say? I am acknowledging when I thought May played well.

Geordiefalcon that's what I would do.

I think the injury to Billy was avoidable but in the circumstances England should start Morgan for his experience and because he played well vs Saracens.

When did Kruis go off anyway? Must have been very late in the game.

It was in the 79th minute, so hardly noticeable.

Daly banned for 3 weeks for 2 seconds of stupidity. The thing is, if he had kept hold of him, he could have controlled the fall and it would have been a penalty and at worse a YC, to take his legs and then let go was more stupid than making the contact in the first place

Seeing interviews with Daly he seems like a confident, intelligent and grounded chap. He'll be fine. He's got a heck of a lot of appearances for Wasps for a relatively young man. Jones really rates him. Obviously it was a silly mistake but I expect him to be a key figure in the 6Ns.

You don't get written off for one mistake. Plenty of players have taken out people in the air and with the rules as they are it's a lottery to see how you're going to get penalised. That said opens up the door for Slade to get a foot in.

Agreed. It's just one of those things.

Daly probably owes Jonny May a pint after he covered both wings for 75 mins!

I watched the Argentina game back last night. Robshaw's workrate and positional sense was just unreal. Eddie and the coaches really are getting the absolute best out of him. He's been one of the top performers in the AIs.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You don't get written off for one mistake. Plenty of players have taken out people in the air and with the rules as they are it's a lottery to see how you're going to get penalised. That said opens up the door for Slade to get a foot in.

Thats not strictly ture. In this case it was carefuly disected by the foruth offical and penalised according to the rules ( Also seem Sam Warburton at world cup 2011) . That a bunch of brain damaged pundits and armchair anger magnets cant cope with it doesnt change that the decision was reached with consideration and correctly.
What can be a bit of a lottery though is the actual impact of taking someone out in the air, as with tip tackles the margin between " no harm no foul" and " holy sweet jesus" ican be pretty small. Thats why they kinda discourage it full stop by having such harsh penalties. If you dont want to run the risk of getting a red then dont take people out in the air. This wasnt a 50/50 who jumped into who case...it was either absolute idiocy or a complete lack of control from Daley that unfortunately for him has carried pretty hefty consequences.

Lets not forget that we (well Beshocked) wrote Jonny May off for getting his nose broken, so I dont think its unfair that we throughly castigate Daly and write him off for something that was his own fault. He should probably be made to sit in the corner and feel shame.

Joking aside yeah its one thing. Plenty of peopel (Hartley) have come back from one or more screw ups. Theres no evidence of a pattern or anything that needs fixing here, and it didnt stop Tuillagi becoming a fixture in the team.

Cyril wrote:Agreed. It's just one of those things.

Daly probably owes Jonny May a pint after he covered both wings for 75 mins!

I watched the Argentina game back last night. Robshaw's workrate and positional sense was just unreal. Eddie and the coaches really are getting the absolute best out of him. He's been one of the top performers in the AIs.

May has a problem now...we know he can play to that level...so it'll be expected every game now...poor lad!

As to Robshaw...he's always played class I just think he was completely underated...so is he playing any better than previous...or is it just that the pack set up and instructions are more suited and his work is now being recognised for the class international flanker that he is.....

Gooseberry wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You don't get written off for one mistake. Plenty of players have taken out people in the air and with the rules as they are it's a lottery to see how you're going to get penalised. That said opens up the door for Slade to get a foot in.

Thats not strictly ture. In this case it was carefuly disected by the foruth offical and penalised according to the rules ( Also seem Sam Warburton at world cup 2011) . That a bunch of brain damaged pundits and armchair anger magnets cant cope with it doesnt change that the decision was reached with consideration and correctly.
What can be a bit of a lottery though is the actual impact of taking someone out in the air, as with tip tackles the margin between " no harm no foul" and " holy sweet jesus" ican be pretty small. Thats why they kinda discourage it full stop by having such harsh penalties. If you dont want to run the risk of getting a red then dont take people out in the air. This wasnt a 50/50 who jumped into who case...it was either absolute idiocy or a complete lack of control from Daley that unfortunately for him has carried pretty hefty consequences.

Lets not forget that we (well Beshocked) wrote Jonny May off for getting his nose broken, so I dont think its unfair that we throughly castigate Daly and write him off for something that was his own fault. He should probably be made to sit in the corner and feel shame.

Joking aside yeah its one thing. Plenty of peopel (Hartley) have come back from one or more screw ups. Theres no evidence of a pattern or anything that needs fixing here, and it didnt stop Tuillagi becoming a fixture in the team.

Yes I understand the rules and that it was a correct decision based on outcome, by lottery I meant the landing decides. The actual foul is identical in a lot of cases.

‘Fraid I’ve got no sympathy with Daly. He put the Argies’s welfare at serious risk, his team at risk of losing the game (if he had done it against Aus we’d have lost), and his country has lost a major asset (at least for a while). And it’s not as if it was a 50:50 call, it’s rare to see such a blatant tackle of its type these days. It made Haskell’s past brainfarts look positively erudite in comparison. He might not have been malicious but he was a fool and needs to be side-lined till he’s smartened up – he’s a professional/elite athlete ffs.

We saw a couple of tackles in the air already in the AIs; Yarde and Mako from memory. Do they also need some time out of the side (well YArde is having that anyway)?

I was frustrated with Daly at the time, but as others have said he definitely isn't a write off. Put it this way, I doubt he'll ever do it again!

Daly's defence worried me as much as he lack of brain on Saturday.

Hughes has to start 8. He's the like for like replacement and has been with the squad since the start of the AI. The point that he hasn't played at 8 is rather irrelevant as he plays there every week for his club, it's his position.

I'd be tempted to start Marler at the weekend and dismantle to Aus scrum, I've seen they're already complaining about Cole.

Cumbrian wrote:I was frustrated with Daly at the time, but as others have said he definitely isn't a write off.  Put it this way, I doubt he'll ever do it again!  

There are some good players with the same mark on their records - Hogg and Payne come to mind

Barney McGrew did it wrote:‘Fraid I’ve got no sympathy with Daly. He put the Argies’s welfare at serious risk, his team at risk of losing the game (if he had done it against Aus we’d have lost), and his country has lost a major asset (at least for a while). And it’s not as if it was a 50:50 call, it’s rare to see such a blatant tackle of its type these days. It made Haskell’s past brainfarts look positively erudite in comparison. He might not have been malicious but he was a fool and needs to be side-lined till he’s smartened up – he’s a professional/elite athlete ffs.

Are you having a laugh???

Wow how to blow things WAY over the top!

lostinwales wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I was frustrated with Daly at the time, but as others have said he definitely isn't a write off.  Put it this way, I doubt he'll ever do it again!  

There are some good players with the same mark on their records - Hogg and Payne come to mind

Exactly....and what about Umaga! He deliberately tried to end O'Driscols career when NZ played the lions....plus numerous other in rugby...

No come backs on Daly. Deserved to see red no question. If you take the player out in the air then its a red. And other players have done it and seen red, so he's not the first player to misjudge his speed and contact with a player in the air.

What p****s me of is that 5 minutes later the Argie Estelles did the same thing, and I can't really see much difference in the contact. The fact that Johhny May was agile enough to fall better doesn't mean the infraction was any less.

I don't question the Daly Red as it was a straight red by the letter of the law what got my goat was that just because May was agile enough to fall and land in a better position, Estelles got away with it.

As for the 3 game ban that is just ridiculous.

What annoyed me more about the Argentinians was their football style antics.

Dirty cheap shots, but when the slightest thing done on them...they were gesturing and looking to the ref....

I disagree and think it's perfectly reasonable to be able to send someone off and give them a three week ban for tackling someone in the air one minute, and give a penalty against someone for tackling someone in the air another.

If a player is on their way down and you hit them with their feet an inch above the ground in an otherwise perfect tackle, you have taken them out in the air but the danger to that player is minimal. It's just a timing issue. Penalty.

If a player jumps for the ball and you jump for the same ball, get nowhere near it and grab the player and you both fall onto your feet, then again there's no severe danger, but you have taken a player in the air. Penalty.

Daly didn't challenge for the ball, he took the player out at the top of his jump - where he has furthest to fall from. He also didn't get up to the player's level, all his momentum was going horizontally and he connected with the player's feet and legs, therefore the player flipped and landed on his head. He never managed to wrap his arms or attempt to control the collision in any way. He just rushed through and put his hands up straight away. It didn't even resemble a tackle, it was reckless and dangerous.

It was an absolute horror show. Red card and three weeks is probably right. After that, I've got no problem with him. It wasn't dirty or malicious, he doesn't have a pattern of doing this, and up until that point his 164 minutes in an England shirt this autumn had so far shown a lot of promise. I'd have him in the Six Nations squad with no second thoughts relating to this incident.

Addendum: I think the law says landing on your feet is a penalty, landing on your back is a yellow and landing on your head is a red - may have even read that on here. I think that's generally fine.

I'd add that if someone flipped over 180 degrees in the air and landed on their back or even their feet, that should be a red and a similar length ban to anyone flipping 180 and landing on their head. If they come straight down onto their feet, a penalty is fine, if they are tackled onto their back, side or front, then a penalty and possibly a yellow card.

GeordieFalcon wrote:What annoyed me more about the Argentinians was their football style antics.

Dirty cheap shots, but when the slightest thing done on them...they were gesturing and looking to the ref....

England aren't great for that at the minute either, GF.

Hartley and Daly responded excellently to the red with no scowling, arguing, shaking heads etc. Hartley helped seperate his players off after the tackle, calmed them down, listened to the ref and accepted the outcome.

Farrell failed to do that as stand in skipper when Marler was binned though. He put on his show of disgusted facial expressions when the yellow card came out against his side.

Farrell is also very liable to whining and hurling his arms in the air to influence a decision, as is Itoje come to think of it. Youngs and Care also do their share of it as scrum halves of course. George Ford isn't adverse to small man syndrome when things don't go his way either. Mike Brown as well but then again he's just angry about everything, the bloke would probably argue with the speaking clock.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:What annoyed me more about the Argentinians was their football style antics.

Dirty cheap shots, but when the slightest thing done on them...they were gesturing and looking to the ref....

England aren't great for that at the minute either, GF.

Hartley and Daly responded excellently to the red with no scowling, arguing, shaking heads etc. Hartley helped seperate his players off after the tackle, calmed them down, listened to the ref and accepted the outcome.

Farrell failed to do that as stand in skipper when Marler was binned though. He put on his show of disgusted facial expressions when the yellow card came out against his side.

Farrell is also very liable to whining and hurling his arms in the air to influence a decision, as is Itoje come to think of it. Youngs and Care also do their share of it as scrum halves of course. George Ford isn't adverse to small man syndrome when things don't go his way either. Mike Brown as well but then again he's just angry about everything, the bloke would probably argue with the speaking clock.

Yes but im an England fan so I don't register when we do it...its allowed

GeordieFalcon wrote:What annoyed me more about the Argentinians was their football style antics.

Dirty cheap shots, but when the slightest thing done on them...they were gesturing and looking to the ref....

That's just that lovely Latin hot blood coming out. Embrace it

Bit worried about our back row Wood and Harrison would be underpowered, Harrison and Hughes pretty inexperienced. Personally I think Wood doesn't do anything but the line out well, and I'd rather take the engine/better pace of Harrison with the power of Hughes...but it's a big gamble. Bit worried about this one.

I thought Wood played well on Saturday.

Saturday will be the first real test England have had since the summer. Not entirely sure the Autumn has prepared them for it even though they beat SA; so did Wales at a canter so you can't take much from it.

If they win then it continues to be a helluva comeback from RWC; but Australia will be smarting after such a narrow victory to Ireland so i expect a very close match and if England continue to show the game management then they should have it.

They are generating real strength in depth but i hope that is not at the expense of consistency which has been a problem in the past. If they do win Saturday then i expect their 6 Nations game v Ireland to be a decider. In truth the only team that is going to let them know where they really are is NZ and they need to play them asap.

Gwlad wrote:Saturday will be the first real test England have had since the summer. Not entirely sure the Autumn has prepared them for it even though they beat SA; so did Wales at a canter so you can't take much from it.

If they win then it continues to be a helluva comeback from RWC; but Australia will be smarting after such a narrow victory to Ireland so i expect a very close match and if England continue to show the game management then they should have it.

They are generating real strength in depth but i hope that is not at the expense of consistency which has been a problem in the past. If they do win Saturday then i expect their 6 Nations game v Ireland to be a decider. In truth the only team that is going to let them know where they really are is NZ and they need to play them asap.

Surely playing Argentina with 14 for 75 mins was a tough test for any team? Arguably we won this fairly comfortably.
Agreed SA is pretty irrelevant as they are in total disarray.

Hood83 wrote:Bit worried about our back row Wood and Harrison would be underpowered, Harrison and Hughes pretty inexperienced. Personally I think Wood doesn't do anything but the line out well, and I'd rather take the engine/better pace of Harrison with the power of Hughes...but it's a big gamble. Bit worried about this one.

I thought having the joint most tackles (with team mate Lawes), being the link man for May's try and being in the right position to score what became the penalty try was a pretty good performance, add to that, the clearing out he did and the leadership he showed along with the other senior players to re-organise the tactics in the light of the Daly red card set him apart from most and made him a candidate for MotM.

Looks like its Wade ahead of Roko

Gooseberry wrote:Looks like its Wade ahead of Roko

I wish it was but I think you mean Yarde.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Looks like its Wade ahead of Roko

I wish it was but I think you mean Yarde.

Unmm yeah that as well

Gooseberry wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Looks like its Wade ahead of Roko

I wish it was but I think you mean Yarde.

Unmm yeah that as well

That is interesting, of the two this autumn Roko clearly had the better game but Jones seems to really like Yarde. He's not really in form so that's a bit of a worry but perhaps he felt that having already played against Aus this year he was more suited to it?

That's a very odd call.

Im not sure what Jones is doing with Roko...theres something going on. Its like he rates him but keeps seeing a flaw that hes not happy with.

But surely theres flaws with Yarde aswell. and Roko played well v Fiji.

Having said that, I don't think Yarde has actually played badly when he has appeared under Jones.

I'm sure this will be of interest

https://www.606v2.com/t64610-6-nations-to-introduce-bonus-points-in-2017#3478015

GeordieFalcon wrote:That's a very odd call.

Im not sure what Jones is doing with Roko...theres something going on. Its like he rates him but keeps seeing a flaw that hes not happy with.

But surely theres flaws with Yarde aswell. and Roko played well v Fiji.

Having said that, I don't think Yarde has actually played badly when he has appeared under Jones.

Workrate. Yarde (and possibly Wade ) just makes himslef a lot busier in a game and motors about the park off the ball much better. This apparently is one of the key things Jones is looking at in players, and why you have a side that can comfortably beat a good team despite playing most of it a man down.

England have plenty of guys who can play out wide and score, I guyess the feeling with Roko is that he doesnt get involved enough eslewhere or get into position with enough hustle between the flash bits we see.

Looks like it's gonna definitely be Hughes in for Vunipola

Gooseberry wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:That's a very odd call.

Im not sure what Jones is doing with Roko...theres something going on. Its like he rates him but keeps seeing a flaw that hes not happy with.

But surely theres flaws with Yarde aswell. and Roko played well v Fiji.

Having said that, I don't think Yarde has actually played badly when he has appeared under Jones.

Workrate. Yarde (and possibly Wade ) just makes himslef a lot busier in a game and motors about the park off the ball much better. This apparently is one of the key things Jones is looking at in players, and why you have a side that can comfortably beat a good team despite playing most of it a man down.

England have plenty of guys who can play out wide and score, I guyess the feeling with Roko is that he doesnt get involved enough eslewhere or get into position with enough hustle between the flash bits we see.

This.

Yarde does make some big mistakes but otherwise he is a powerful talent and hard worker, I think he's coached a lot better by the England team then at Quins too so I wouldn't use club form.

Agree...and I said exactly that when Roko was dropped for May. May is a grafter...he chases kicks relentlessly etc.

This is a SH trait...look at the likes of Pocock...renowed for his poaching breakdown work...but his work rate is out of this world. He hit higher stats than the workhorse king Robshaw in the World Cup. He hit 35+ tackles in one game I believe!

This is a bare minimum benchmark for Eddie Jones! You must be crazily fit AND work your a$$ off aswell.

When you have that work rate AND talent...its difficult to beat. And England are looking like a side that can cope with most things now...even with large numbers of first choice player losses. Ireland are matching this requirement aswell...

The thing is, I'm sure there are some that are just more naturally 'busy' players. It's probably a combination of things: fitness, positioning and game awareness, pure willingness to be involved. Some players just look 'busier' and more 'visible'. Some of this is coachable (a word?) but it must be maddening for the stricter coaches when players drift in and out of games.

Either Roko needs to up his workrate or invest in a brightly coloured scrumcap or grow some flailing dreads to catch Eddie's eye.

I wish Wade was 6 inches taller to purely change impression of him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I wish Wade was 6 inches taller to purely change impression of him.

It's an argument that Will Greenwood has put forward before for Wade and Eastmond. I.e. that if they were 6 inches taller but making the exact same tackles, breaks, passes, finishes, etc then they would be viewed completely differently.

With Wade in particular I tend to agree. His defence is weak but that's the case for basically all our wingers. With Joseph at 13 it's also far less of a worry given how well he covers an outside break.

I hope that Wade gets a chance in Argentina when any combination of Watson, Nowell and May could well be on the Lions tour. Although all of them won't be if fit and Watson is the only one I'd consider nailed on.

GeordieFalcon wrote:That's a very odd call.

Im not sure what Jones is doing with Roko...theres something going on. Its like he rates him but keeps seeing a flaw that hes not happy with.

But surely theres flaws with Yarde aswell. and Roko played well v Fiji.

Having said that, I don't think Yarde has actually played badly when he has appeared under Jones.

I suspect that Jones' problem with Roko is his defensive positioning. It was pretty poor against Fiji.

Yes it was very....Fijian!

Re-Wade

I honestly think his time has gone. And theres other wingers that may get a look.

Marcus Watson at us, Earle the Sarries lad whos down in NZ learning his trade etc etc.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Saturday will be the first real test England have had since the summer. Not entirely sure the Autumn has prepared them for it even though they beat SA; so did Wales at a canter so you can't take much from it.

If they win then it continues to be a helluva comeback from RWC; but Australia will be smarting after such a narrow victory to Ireland so i expect a very close match and if England continue to show the game management then they should have it.

They are generating real strength in depth but i hope that is not at the expense of consistency which has been a problem in the past. If they do win Saturday then i expect their 6 Nations game v Ireland to be a decider. In truth the only team that is going to let them know where they really are is NZ and they need to play them asap.

Surely playing Argentina with 14 for 75 mins was a tough test for any team? Arguably we won this fairly comfortably.
Agreed SA is pretty irrelevant as they are in total disarray.

A test of sorts but i would still like to see England playing NZ asap because no other opposition is going to put them on the back foot in away that will tell us how they come from behind under pressure.

And what about these comments about Jonny May from today's ESPN article?

Eddie Jones:  "I'd love to spend one day inside his head, it would be absolutely fascinating."

And the rest of the article...........
(Mike) Brown knows that for all the eccentricities of the squad's fastest player, he remains a deadly finisher who has crossed twice in two appearances this autumn and is set to start against Australia at Twickenham in Saturday's climax to the series.

"Jonny seems to disappear from training every now and then to go to the toilet," Brown said.

"Eddie turns around and goes 'where the effing hell has Jonny gone?' And Jonny just trots back in like nothing's going on. So Eddie's like 'what the hell are you doing?'.
"He's like...what's the best way to describe it...he's like a puppy! He's really enthusiastic, bounding around desperate to show his energy and go to the toilet!
"He has so much energy and enthusiasm, so we have to keep him on a tight leash sometimes. And give him direction -- well that's what I end up doing anyway.
"But he's a brilliant player. With ball in hand he can finish tries that others can't. He's electric running-wise. He also listens, which is a good thing!

"I don't think he knows what's going on half the time, so who knows what's going on in his head? He's an interesting character, one that I'll probably never experience again.

"It's great that you play in a sport with so many different characters, like Jonny. He can be frustrating at times, but he's a good bloke to have around."

Fourteen-man England needed May to join a scrum as an openside flanker in the final quarter of Saturday's 27-14 defeat of Argentina. Instead of taking his place in the back row, however, he placed his head between Mako Vunipola's legs and then grabbed the loosehead prop's knee and shin in his search for stability. "Jonny's days as a flanker are definitely numbered! He couldn't have watched much rugby or scrums in a rugby game to bind the way he was binding. That's just Jonny!" he said. "Interesting technique, I don't think it'll be one that they'll be using going forward, but it made us laugh.

"I want to know who actually put him on in the scrum in the first place because he'd be the last person I'd put there. That's who needs to answer some questions." May's scrummaging technique has entertained the squad and scrum-half Ben Youngs has a simple message for the 26-year-old -- "get the ball, mate, and run!". "Unbelievable isn't it? What's he doing? It's madness! He needs to get on the scrum machine. Poor old Mako. Jonny's taken a bit of heat," Youngs said.

"It's amazing that he's played rugby all his life but he doesn't know where his head's supposed to go when he plays seven. That's Jonny for you. "Scrummaging's not his forte, but give him the ball on the edge of the pitch and he'll finish for you. If he keeps doing that, I'm sure the front-row will forgive him.

"Jonny's such a gifted athlete in terms of his speed. The ground he can cover in such a short space of time is incredible. "You just don't want him to overthink things too much -- just give him the ball and let him do his thing. Get the ball, mate, and run."