Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

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Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:22 pm

Saints seem to have been on the decline for the last two to three years, I know they have won a AP title but I suspect that that was just a bad year all round for AP clubs, they haven't looked convincing for at least three years. This season is the worst since they were relegated, clueless, headless chickens running around not knowing what the rest are doing, no cohesion, no tactical plan; that they can make work anyway.

Despite bringing in a host of new players, from memory; Beasley, Bennett, Brookes, Estelles, Hanrahan, Groom, Gibson, Kessel, Ma'afu, Picamoles, Ratuniyarawa, Tuala, Tuitavake only Brookes and Picamoles have established themselves as first choice, Gibson is an exception with Wood, Harrison, Clark etc. to contest the 6/7 shirt. Ma'afu and Tuala get bench spots along with Groom. They are spending fortunes on wages for players that are not getting any game time, why? Estelles was playing for Argentina on Saturday, but cant make the Saints bench, never mind the team.

Groom is well ahead of Dickson these days, but still plays second fiddle, Burrell is a much better 13 than 12 and ahead of Pisi, PH is a much better 12 than Burrell, but we still get the old formation of Burrell and Pisi.

Long term injuries to Clark, Stephenson, Foden haven't helped but they are not at the heart of the problem.

The management seems to have a mistrust of youth, Mallinder junior seems to have a problem getting into the side, with his father preferring the stodge of Burrell and Pisi, despite the world and his dog believing PH is the next best thing to sliced bread. Where is the next Alex Waller, Prince Harry, Teimana Harrison coming from, despite massive injury problems and international call ups we still do not play any of the younger Senior Academy players, preferring to play Patterson at 6 to say Bennett or Ludlam. The lack of energy and cohesion showed and we got what we deserved against the 3rd worst side in the premiership ( Bristol, then us on that performance and Falcons). Is it that the younger players just are just not good enough, if not, why do we retain them. If they are but have yet to fulfil their promise, put the money wasted on players that do not play into developing the youth into the players they believe them capable of being. Players like Alex Moon are potential monsters for Saints in the future, but do not seem to be getting the development chances they deserve

Since the sacking of King, the backs have looked lost and clueless, why sack someone you have no replacement for, sounds very much like JM is trying to shift the blame away from where it belongs. He picks the sides and directs how he wants the game to be played and his thinking has been muddled at best, very much on the lines of Bomber Lancaster I think he has taken the side as far as he can. The game he wants to play is old fashioned, the modern game has moved on and he has failed to move with it; see Eddie Jones England or Ireland's style of play.

The thing I find ridiculous is that Saints used to play that AB style game, the forwards were streets ahead of most sides when it came to ball handling skills, all players fitted into the line seamlessly. The likes of the Waller brothers, Lawes, Day, Dickinson, Haywood, all could match the backs on ball handling and still do the hard grind in the pack. We just don't use these skills anymore.

Am I the only one who feels like this?


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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Watching the Saints I am bemused at how little you get from how much. From a team that used to be more than the some of the parts you are looking less than the sun of your parts. Sadly Tigers up the road were very much in the same boat at the start of the season (fingers crossed we're coming out of that).

I think coaches have a shelf life. Fresh blood needs to come in to bring no ideas and keep the players interested. Eddie Jones seems to be a master at this with temporary coaches joining his permanent staff for short periods. It's been a long spell for Saints with two coaches and occasional rotation of the third. They need someone to come in and move things along. Who's available though?

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by beshocked on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:38 pm

It's not going to help when you lose the spine of your pack - Hartley,Lawes,Wood,Harrison and Picamoles.

Any team would hurt losing 5 first choice players in the pack.

I don't think it's just coaching, I think it's recruitment too that needs fine tuning. Some areas you are fine.

Your half backs IMO simply aren't good enough. I would seriously consider bringing in Ford.

You want to move back to a more positive approach, he's your man. Even just having him and making other selections I think could transform Saints.


1.Waller
2.Hartley
3.Brookes
4.Lawes
5.Day
6.Wood
7.Harrison
8.Picamoles

9.Groom
10.Ford
11.Elliott
12.Mallinder
13.Burrell
14.North
15.Foden

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:02 am

They can consider bringing in Ford all they like but he won't be cheap and will he want to move to a team that has a playing style that doesn't work ingrained? He will also note that Saints have signed several flyhalfs over the years with attacking intent and then instantly reverted to Myler as soon as the big games come around. His brother didn't get on to well there either.

Saints have a number of high quality youngsters per the OP. They could bring through an almost self sustaining backline if they work hard on it this season. Not sure about at 9 but after that there's two or three 10/12 options and then Packman, Collins and Stephenson outside of them. All good players with potential. It's a similar position up front, Saints based their previous success on forgetting big names and bringing through talented younger players.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:21 am

BS, I would agree with you if it was just during the AIs and 6N, but it is not, it has been going on for a few years now.

With the players Saints have, it shouldn't happen. We have the core of a very good team but the management do not seem to be able to come up with a game plan to suit. As I said previously, the team is made for AB style rugby, but we have been playing like SA (the current team) without the advantage of a pack made up of Orks..

FKaS, completely agree, Groom does look the business though, Olver did well in the couple of AWC games he played in and then with youngsters like Packman, Hutchinson and Stephenson supplementing Mallinder and Burrell in the centre, we should be doing well. I have always seen Collins as Fodens replacement, but he does not seem to be seen that way by Saints management

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:32 pm

God help us on Saturday if we go to Welford Road and play like we did last week, it will be men against boys.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by Welly on Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:49 pm

Ford ain't going to go to saints

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:09 am

Stranger things have happened, but I would probably agree with you under the current management. However a new start with a big name DoR and who knows? Saints have the potential to be like Sarries, especially if they get their injured players back it is the lack of vision and an inability to keep up with the times that hols them back.

Groom, Ford, North, Malinder, Burrell, Perm one from 3 but say Estelles, Foden is one hell of a back line, add reserves of Stephenson, Hutchinson, Packman plus whatever is left of the various SH imports and it should be up their with the best.

Add to that a pack that contains, Brookes/Hill, Hartley, Lawes, Picamoles, Wood, Harrison with the likes of the Wallers, Day and Gibson/Clark making up the rest and again that should be class leading or there abouts. Why it isn't has been stated before.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by Welly on Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:48 am

Well considering he is in talks with teams Now and has been for a couple months, Saints would have to make the chop soonish and hope to get a top DOR/H soonish.

Saints don't have the potential to be like Sarries IMO, the backline again IMO is very well in depht and on paper.

Pack is great but the backline is either past it or too many Jounrymen.

North and Mallinder are top talents, Hutchinson and Stephenson look very good aswell.

But compared to other teams back lines without 10's it wouldn't be in my top 7/8 on paper.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by marty2086 on Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:07 am

As an Irishman Im curious as to the Saints fans view of Hanrahan, Munster fans still aren't quite over losing him and he looked decent when he first arrived but I haven't seen much of him since. Is Meyler that far ahead of him he doesn't deserve a run?

I know there was talk of Paddy Jackson moving from Ulster, which I hope doesn't happen!


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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:51 am

Hanrahan is injured at the moment. I'm not a Saints fan but when I've seen him play for them he doesn't offer enough control. Last season he seemed to be used as an impact option if Saints needed to chase the game.

Welly, I think the backline has the potential to be substantially better than is shown. As WPI says the continued selection of Myler/Burrell/Pisi and to a degree Foden is not helping Saints. If they can select them again this weekend that would be ideal though.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by doctor_grey on Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:07 am

I have been in mourning since the cockup this past weekend.  But as Well-Past-it says, this is not a new phenomenon.  I think their decline started almost overnight about two years ago, the season they won the Premiership.  They started the season playing their usual solid, grounded up-tempo game plan, the players comfortable with the game plan, scoring at a high rate, playing good defense.    Then it almost seemed the energy left the team about this time of year and they battled to the end, just barely getting over the line, literally and figuratively.  

It is hard to know why.  It seemed to me that some players simply got older or were injured.  But it is now clear there is more to it.  As someone said, they appear less than the sum of their parts.  

One thing is evident, they don't play their traditional straight-ahead offloading game as much or as well.  That set up most of the attacking play.  And the ball moved quick, quick, quick.  Now my mother could play for Saints considering their game speed.  

Granted Saints don't have Tiny, Mujati, Corbs, Manoa who played this style very well.  But in counter-point Saints have an all International back row, with Wood, Harrison, and Picamoles which is as good as most International back rows, let alone those in the ruddy Premiership.  Also Lawes is very mobile as is Hill (but Saints play fat boy Brookes, a past winner of the Ben Morgan cheeseburger-eating contest).  

But I think the malaise is more than these players.  The backs look a tired and slothful bunch.  Stevie Myler has logged too many miles.  Dickson needs a triple expresso.  The Burrell-Pisi dynamic is the antithesis of dynamic.  The wings are fine, even with North out there napping for 40-50 minutes per game.  An older Foden is still a game winner and is fine.  

I do think bringing in the younger backs is needed.  When Prince Harry returns from injury he needs to play, either at 10 or 12.  Burrell can play 13 only.  Pisi can play 13 only, but neither is really a link player.  My preference would be Prince Harry at 12 with north at 13 with a mix of Elliott, Collins, Estelles, or even K. Pisi on the outside. Or Prince harry at 10 and Hutch at 12.

And speaking of youth, there is younger talent we need to see in the forwards too.  Moon is only one (but is the biggest one).   When the adults were away on International duty, why not take a shot and give them their chances - against Worcester and Newcastle.   The perfect time.  Almost seems as if Mallinder is coaching not to lose now, rather than look forward.  

But all that, to me, papers over the main point of the post.  Has Jim run his course?  Sadly, despite all the good things he has done for Saints - and he has been terrific - I am slowly moving in that direction, though not there yet. The trend is in the wrong direction and has been for a few seasons. Ultimately, this business is about results.  And even the wins are a struggle.  Unless Jim can mastermind a second half renaissance similar to the annual ones performed by Leicester, we may need to consider this very carefully.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by Scottrf on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:31 am

I disagree with the timescales. I think it's January 2015 that we have looked poor since. Not 3 years.

But yes, very much going backwards. Coaching hasn't moved on, and there have been reports of senior players expressing concern to the board over this.

Waller is guaranteed a start every week, no matter how poor his form and discipline has been at points this season. Haywood is having to play every game because Hartley is never available. And Brookes hasn't been the same since his injury, nowhere near as dominant in the scrum, and offers not close to as much as he should around the park with his power. He doesn't look fit. So why isn't Hill pressuring his place? That's just the front row, but it's a story of players being overplayed, out of form with no pressure that is echoed elsewhere.

Look at our attacking play, slow ball, predictable lines. Basic handling skills are abysmal so offloads aren't an option. Players taking the ball stationary 10 metres behind the gainline. Which inevitably results in us needing to kick the ball away to try to win territory. Newcastle the perfect example of this. Myler isn't our problem IMO but it's obvious he doesn't have the creativity to inject much, he's just dependable. We've lost big carriers like Tonga'uiha, Manoa and completely rely on Picamoles now for this. I do think on early impressions Api might help in this area. Harrison did last year but yet to see a performance from him this year. The scrum half situation is a mess, we had someone who was thought of as one of the best 9s in the world (Fotuali'i) and make Captain a guy who barely scrapes the Saxons...

Defensively we drift, drift, drift, rush and miss a tackle. No coherence. Just put no pressure on the ball.

Recruitment seems to solely strengthen the Wanderers side, academy players aren't really breaking through and a number of players have been going backwards without competition for their position. Agree with some of the youngsters looking talented but there have been woeful defensive mistakes by them, and a lot of them simply seem too small.

To answer the question, yes, Jim has lost my confidence sadly. And I don't think he is inspiring the players to play at their best.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by Scottrf on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:34 am

marty2086 wrote:As an Irishman Im curious as to the Saints fans view of Hanrahan, Munster fans still aren't quite over losing him and he looked decent when he first arrived but I haven't seen much of him since. Is Meyler that far ahead of him he doesn't deserve a run?

I know there was talk of Paddy Jackson moving from Ulster, which I hope doesn't happen!
He's playing at 12 this weekend.

He hasn't offered too much control over the game, and his kicking has been shockingly poor. I feel like he potentially offers something a bit more attacking but he hasn't played well (or often). Had a big injury but before that I think it's the boot which stopped him being trusted.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by Scottrf on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:54 am

A discussion on Leicester radio about Saints, from 15 minutes on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04jn7yk

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:57 am

Scottrf wrote:A discussion on Leicester radio about Saints, from 15 minutes on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04jn7yk

I agree with most of what they said, we have just not moved on,

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by doctor_grey on Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:15 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Scottrf wrote:A discussion on Leicester radio about Saints, from 15 minutes on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04jn7yk

I agree with most of what they said, we have just not moved on,
Thanks for the link, and I agree with most of it too. But there is more amiss than the 9-10 axis. And that certainly points to the players acquired and how they are being coached. An interesting comment in the podcast was the team seems to need to wait for halftime to get instructions from the coaching team. Oddly, Hartley is getting big plaudits from Eddie Jones about leading on the pitch and making adjustments on the fly as needed..........

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:44 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Scottrf wrote:A discussion on Leicester radio about Saints, from 15 minutes on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04jn7yk

I agree with most of what they said, we have just not moved on,
Thanks for the link, and I agree with most of it too.  But there is more amiss than the 9-10 axis.  And that certainly points to the players acquired and how they are being coached.  An interesting comment in the podcast was the team seems to need to wait for halftime to get instructions from the coaching team.  Oddly, Hartley is getting big plaudits from Eddie Jones about leading on the pitch and making adjustments on the fly as needed..........

Hartley has some big characters around him. In the backs you can't imagine 9, 10, 12 and 15 won't always have an opinion and the likes of Launchbury, Haskell, Itoje, Billy, Cole, Wood, Robshaw and Marler up front are all used to being leaders at their club.

At club level how many of the backs would want to step forward and say "sod it, this isn't working we're going to do". Myler doesn't strike me as that kind of leader, neither centre would. Up front there is more but how confident are they, is Picamoles English up to scratch for those kind of quick on field discussions?

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by Scottrf on Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:30 pm

His English is pretty basic.

I agree we lack leadership, that's really what Hartley brings us.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:06 pm

I think that's part of the problem at Tigers as well. Particularly in the back line.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:17 pm

It would be good to see the likes of Alex Waller and Christian Day step up in Hartley's absence, even Gibson or Burrell. Difficult for the likes of Foden from 15 to have that much influence, he doesn't have the character of Brown; He would run the length of the field to throw a few F...s at players he thought were underperforming and m=not doing things right.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by doctor_grey on Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:57 pm

Your comments raise a few interesting points (as Saints supporters, everything we say is interesting and is a must-read).

With England Hartley is showing the impact his leadership brings. But Eddie Jones seems to have Hartley on the straight and narrow while with Saints he had his problems. It strikes me this is more than a simple coincidence.

Also seems to show Saints have not developed or signed any other strong leaders. Alex, Christian, Stevie, and Burrell are not the leader types. Nor is Heywood. Foden can't lead from 15. And, in fact, I can't recall any successful captains anywhere at 15 since Gareth Thomas (who everyone was afraid of since he was a wee bit nuts). Picamoles (King Louis) can lead, but he was away for the Internationals, as was Wood, the other potential captain type. Forgive me using the "S-word", but Saracens have leaders all over their ruddy team.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:26 am

doctor_grey wrote:Your comments raise a few interesting points (as Saints supporters, everything we say is interesting and is a must-read).

With England Hartley is showing the impact his leadership brings.  But Eddie Jones seems to have Hartley on the straight and narrow while with Saints he had his problems.  It strikes me this is more than a simple coincidence.    

Also seems to show Saints have not developed or signed any other strong leaders.  Alex, Christian, Stevie, and Burrell are not the leader types.  Nor is Heywood.  Foden can't lead from 15.  And, in fact, I can't recall any successful captains anywhere at 15 since Gareth Thomas (who everyone was afraid of since he was a wee bit nuts).  Picamoles (King Louis) can lead, but he was away for the Internationals, as was Wood, the other potential captain type.  Forgive me using the "S-word", but Saracens have leaders all over their ruddy team.  

Yes the North London crowd have leaders everywhere, even the younger members of the side like Itoje surpass anything Saints have with Hartley missing.

Interesting point you make about Hartley's discipline Doc; the fact that he has such problems with Saints but rarely transgresses for England shows the lack of management skills Saints have in developing these talents and teaching people to control their aggression. Either that or he just gets a lot more frustrated with Saints than with England, understandable sometimes.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:41 am

Hartley isn't anywhere near as potent around the field as he used to be. The neutered Hartley is more reliable and less likely to get in to bother but he's lost his edge. If he wasn't the captain I think he'd be on the bench for England and is under threat for his shirt at club level.  He's yet to find his happy medium. 

Sarries are irritatingly good at introducing young players to the culture early and getting them to buy into it whole heartedly. They take ownership of the team's play and natural leaders like Itoje flourish early and players like Vunipola and Farrell who aren't natural leaders thrive and take on responsibilities gladly for the team.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by LondonTiger on Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:46 am

Saints fans in pub I watched England game are predicting Pat Lam will take top job.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:00 am

That would be quite a coup. He's a good coach and if he brings one or two with him...

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by doctor_grey on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:04 am

LondonTiger wrote:Saints fans in pub I watched England game are predicting Pat Lam will take top job.
Bring the old Saint back. I heard that rumour (or wish) last time I was home. Heard it in the pub at the Gardens.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by profitius on Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:01 am

LondonTiger wrote:Saints fans in pub I watched England game are predicting Pat Lam will take top job.


He's contracted for another season after this in Connacht.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by LondonTiger Yesterday at 9:53 pm

Ah well, Lam's remaining contract was worth only money, but Bristol taking him not Saints.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

Post by GeordieFalcon Yesterday at 10:16 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:They can consider bringing in Ford all they like but he won't be cheap and will he want to move to a team that has a playing style that doesn't work ingrained? He will also note that Saints have signed several flyhalfs over the years with attacking intent and then instantly reverted to Myler as soon as the big games come around. His brother didn't get on to well there either.

Saints have a number of high quality youngsters per the OP. They could bring through an almost self sustaining backline if they work hard on it this season. Not sure about at 9 but after that there's two or three 10/12 options and then Packman, Collins and Stephenson outside of them. All good players with potential. It's a similar position up front, Saints based their previous success on forgetting big names and bringing through talented younger players.

Agree Sam. The took Hodgson from us...now he may not have been up to the standard required...but they didn't even give him a chance...they switched him to scrum half then promptly sacked him off to Leeds.

I think Mallinder needs to be moved on.

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Re: Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

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