Most overrated current international player.

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Post by Maine man on Thu 1 Dec - 8:50

First topic message reminder :

Just a bit of fun. Who do people think is the most overrated player currently. For me it's Will Skelton. Just don't see what he adds to the aussie team.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 3:59

No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't reacting to what Warburton was doing and saying then after a flare up not initially involving Brown? Not sure you're right personally and yes he was walked backwards by 4 Welsh players. Yes Warburton then tried to wind him up more but that's the game these days.

You watched a different game to the one I watched 7&1/2. But then again, I'm the neutral so I understand.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 4:02

Cyril wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Sean O'Brien is a good example of an overrated player. Decent player, but a luxury and a show pony. Awful squeaky voice and an annoying whinging individual too.

Irish fans do tend to big up their players quite a bit in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu9SZPlxjVk

Sean O'Brien swatting away English players. You wish he was English.
Even the Irish fans in the comments think O'Brien is being a d*ck there!

There you go. We have a rounded opinion of our players (rugby skills and boxing skills) after all. Cool

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Post by Cyril on Fri 2 Dec - 4:02

Terrible technique by O'Brien has resulted in several Irish losses.

It is funny when he gets pinged at the breakdown and starts squealing with his weird voice though! Laugh

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Post by Guest on Fri 2 Dec - 4:05

SOBs swatting technique is pretty good though Very Happy

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 2 Dec - 4:06

LondonTiger wrote:Beauden Barrett - is he really the best player in the world?
Juan-Martin Hernandez - has he ever been as good as pundits claim?
Maro Itoje - not the second messiah just yet.
CJ Stander - see Itoje
Jonny Gray - see Itoje/Stander
Sergio Parisse - watch the commentators fawn over him come 6Ns
Lee Halfpenny - has been living off his goalkicking and 40 magical minutes for the Lions for too long
Wesley Fofana - still seems to be more potential than actual realised talent


To be over-rated, you have to at least be rated, which generally means that the contenders for such a title will usually be pretty good players, just not quite as good as the hype.



Note - I was struggling to find a single Saffer who is currently rated.


Barrett (and Dagg) are somewhat overrated as singers as well.

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/rugbyunion/2016/12/01/news/watch-all-blacks-israel-dagg-and-beauden-barrett-passionately-sing-ireland-s-call-813442/

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 4:06

Cyril wrote:Terrible technique by O'Brien has resulted in several Irish losses.

It is funny when he gets pinged at the breakdown and starts squealing with his weird voice though! Laugh

I know, we'd be No1 in the world by now if we weren't forced to pick him.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 2 Dec - 4:09

SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:Terrible technique by O'Brien has resulted in several Irish losses.

It is funny when he gets pinged at the breakdown and starts squealing with his weird voice though! Laugh

I know, we'd be No1 in the world by now if we weren't forced to pick him.
4th best is your Everest I'm afraid. You'll be back at basecamp come the 6 Nations.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 2 Dec - 4:13

Cyril wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:Terrible technique by O'Brien has resulted in several Irish losses.

It is funny when he gets pinged at the breakdown and starts squealing with his weird voice though! Laugh

I know, we'd be No1 in the world by now if we weren't forced to pick him.
4th best is your Everest I'm afraid. You'll be back at basecamp come the 6 Nations.

Well we were ranked 2nd in the world at one point last year. England are only gearing up for a big fall as usual.

That fall will probably be the last game of the six nations so hold off on the grand slam tee shirts. Bahahaha.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 2 Dec - 4:13

SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't reacting to what Warburton was doing and saying then after a flare up not initially involving Brown? Not sure you're right personally and yes he was walked backwards by 4 Welsh players. Yes Warburton then tried to wind him up more but that's the game these days.

You watched a different game to the one I watched 7&1/2.  But then again, I'm the neutral so I understand.

Just rewatch it on youtube, scuffle with Cole loads rush in, Brown arrives late and takes exception to Warburton grabs him from behind 3 other Welsh players join in. Whole thing finishes while Brown is then taking on a prop. Not a word of a lie.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 4:13

Cyril wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:Terrible technique by O'Brien has resulted in several Irish losses.

It is funny when he gets pinged at the breakdown and starts squealing with his weird voice though! Laugh

I know, we'd be No1 in the world by now if we weren't forced to pick him.
4th best is your Everest I'm afraid. You'll be back at basecamp come the 6 Nations.

We were both 3rd and 2nd not all that long ago Cyril. Might see you up there for a pillow fight sooner than you think.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 4:17

No 7&1/2 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't reacting to what Warburton was doing and saying then after a flare up not initially involving Brown? Not sure you're right personally and yes he was walked backwards by 4 Welsh players. Yes Warburton then tried to wind him up more but that's the game these days.

You watched a different game to the one I watched 7&1/2.  But then again, I'm the neutral so I understand.

Just rewatch it on youtube, scuffle with Cole loads rush in, Brown arrives late and takes exception to Warburton grabs him from behind 3 other Welsh players join in. Whole thing finishes while Brown is then taking on a prop. Not a word of a lie.

Yep, a melee and Brown rushes in and, as often, doesn't fully know the etiquette of a good old muck-em-up. Gets too hot, dare I say 'footballish hot, starts larging it, showing the fangs etc - and gets walked backwards calmly by a guy who tells him, with a knowing expression, 'you've lost this one'.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 2 Dec - 4:24

And his 3 mates before taking on a prop.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 2 Dec - 4:28

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Cyril wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:Terrible technique by O'Brien has resulted in several Irish losses.

It is funny when he gets pinged at the breakdown and starts squealing with his weird voice though! Laugh

I know, we'd be No1 in the world by now if we weren't forced to pick him.
4th best is your Everest I'm afraid. You'll be back at basecamp come the 6 Nations.

Well we were ranked 2nd in the world at one point last year. England are only gearing up for a big fall as usual.

That fall will probably be the last game of the six nations so hold off on the grand slam tee shirts. Bahahaha.
Ireland will have lost to Scotland, France (and possibly Wales) by then and morale will be on the floor Smile

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 2 Dec - 4:31

Ireland absolutely hammered Scotland last season.
We have France at home so should beat them.

I agree on Wales though that will be a test. They are always crap in November and turn it around in the Six nations. Wales will be our toughest game of the tournament Id say but Ireland have a great record in Wales.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 2 Dec - 4:36

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Ireland absolutely hammered Scotland last season.
We have France at home so should beat them.

I agree on Wales though that will be a test. They are always crap in November and turn it around in the Six nations. Wales will be our toughest game of the tournament Id say but Ireland have a great record in Wales.
It was 35-25 and you were at home. Are you thinking of the season before when Scotland gave up?

In that case England absolutely hammered Ireland last season as they won by more points Smile

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 2 Dec - 4:44

Maybe I am. Still Scotland aren't going to beat Ireland. They are still weak enough.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 5:18

No 7&1/2 wrote:And his 3 mates before taking on a prop.

His three mates were just pacing out the dance.  The dance was between Warburton and Brown.  Like I've said, I don't mind Brown - his heart is in the right place.  He has bundles of the right attitude in terms of his willingness to turn virtually anything into attack (gamewise).  The execution might not always be 100% but I love that kind of a player.

But unfortunately he is just that little bit too 'let's fight' aggressive.  


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Post by Poorfour on Fri 2 Dec - 7:04

I think Brown winds people up precisely because he does know when to hit the off switch. He looks like he's out of control, but he also knows when to stop. After a decade of watching him do this, I think it's a lot more calculated than it looks. He goes right up to the edge, but not over it.

If you don't believe me, just count up how many cards he's picked up and how many weeks he's spent banned.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 8:18

Poorfour wrote:I think Brown winds people up precisely because he does know when to hit the off switch. He looks like he's out of control, but he also knows when to stop. After a decade of watching him do this, I think it's a lot more calculated than it looks. He goes right up to the edge, but not over it.

If you don't believe me, just count up how many cards he's picked up and how many weeks he's spent banned.

Ah, not so sure.  I've had many run ins with devious and smart winder-uppers.  I'd rate Hartley (at least the old version of him) as a winder upper.  He was good too.  You could see it in his eyes that he was plotting and planning shenanigans for maximum benefit.  There are others like him through rugby.  It's part of the game and when you can see it in operation, there's even a little bit of respect for the skill.  
But then there are a few 'can't take its' who might act ready for true battle but always have a ready reason to verbalise themselves back from a true fight whilst still holding on to some 'won't back down' credibility. Wink  I don't think Jones Brown has the wind-up smarts of an old Hartley.  He invariably always gets more hot than the guy he's trying to heat up.


Last edited by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 9:37; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Engine#4 on Fri 2 Dec - 8:46

English wingers. Robinson is the only one since Underwood who hasn't been vastly overrated.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 2 Dec - 9:08

SecretFly wrote:Ah, not so sure.  I've had many run ins with devious and smart winder-uppers.  I'd rate Hartley (at least the old version of him) as a winder upper.  He was good too.  You could see it in his eyes that he was plotting and planning shenanigans for maximum benefit.  There are others like him through rugby.  It's part of the game and when you can see it in operation, there's even a little bit of respect for the skill.  
But then there are a few 'can't take its' who might act ready for true battle but always have a ready reason to verbalise themselves back from a true fight whilst still holding on to some 'won't back down' credibility. Wink  I don't think Jones has the wind-up smarts of an old Hartley.  He invariably always gets more hot than the guy he's trying to heat up.

Hartley's wasted over a year of his career being banned. That's not smart.

I couldn't find international stats, but in 269 club games, Brown has had 6 yellow cards and no reds. 4 of those were picked up in his first 3 seasons. Since then, he has averaged 1 yellow card every 96 games. Cool headed Sam Warburton, by comparison, has copped 1 in 85 games at club level (not to mention a notorious red internationally).
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 9:42

Poorfour wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Ah, not so sure.  I've had many run ins with devious and smart winder-uppers.  I'd rate Hartley (at least the old version of him) as a winder upper.  He was good too.  You could see it in his eyes that he was plotting and planning shenanigans for maximum benefit.  There are others like him through rugby.  It's part of the game and when you can see it in operation, there's even a little bit of respect for the skill.  
But then there are a few 'can't take its' who might act ready for true battle but always have a ready reason to verbalise themselves back from a true fight whilst still holding on to some 'won't back down' credibility. Wink  I don't think Jones has the wind-up smarts of an old Hartley.  He invariably always gets more hot than the guy he's trying to heat up.

Hartley's wasted over a year of his career being banned. That's not smart.

I couldn't find international stats, but in 269 club games, Brown has had 6 yellow cards and no reds. 4 of those were picked up in his first 3 seasons. Since then, he has averaged 1 yellow card every 96 games. Cool headed Sam Warburton, by comparison, has copped 1 in 85 games at club level (not to mention a notorious red internationally).

This is becoming a bit of an epic!  Wink  

Is Warburton always coolheaded?  Nope.  
Is Brown just a smart winder-upper who isn't really angry and agitated when he's snapping?  No, he's a hot head.  
Does that make him a puncher, gouger, slapper, elbower etc etc?  No.  But neither does it make him just a wise winder-upper.  
Most of the 'winding up' I've seen him engage in has nothing to do with the theory of winding up.  But maybe you have the stats to disprove it?

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 2 Dec - 9:55

Apparently you have some elaborate definition of winder-up that I don't share. My only point, really, is that to annoy that many fans by being shouty without picking up cards is not the mark of a hot head. If he was out of control, he'd cop more cards. Or some.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 2 Dec - 10:01

Nah, Poorfor. I certainly do have a different definition of a winder-upper. A wind-up merchant is a guy who knows weak points in an opponent player and keeps baiting them to draw a reaction. If the reaction comes, then perhaps a card might follow for that opponent.
You've suggested Brown is that kind of player - a smart mover.
I simply don't agree. He doesn't get into fistfights but that doesn't make his hot headness any less genuine.

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Post by Gwlad on Fri 2 Dec - 11:25

Brown is a prat, plain and simple. He's a scrapper and no tough guy, his petulance gets him in strife and causes problems for his team.
Warburton is no tough guy either, he's the kid at school who never really got angry until one day he took someone's head off.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 2 Dec - 12:12

Gwlad wrote:Brown is a prat, plain and simple. He's a scrapper and no tough guy, his petulance gets him in strife and causes problems for his team.
Warburton is no tough guy either, he's the kid at school who never really got angry until one day he took someone's head off.

As the stats show that is actually rubbish about Brown. He's not a wind up merchant. He doesn't get into punch ups. He doesn't give away unnecessary penalties. He doesn't always pass when he should and sometimes he tries to do more than is possible, but those things are annoying rather than a disaster. He does run on aggression though. Liam Williams gets some similar grief for similar levels of evidence.

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Post by Gwlad on Fri 2 Dec - 12:27

Well if that is all true then he needs to have a word with his PR team….why does he still make himself look like a plonker whenever there is some handbags he comes in with his war face and gives it large before bottling it.

Liam made a few poorly placed challenges some time ago otherwise the only similarity is that Liam sometimes plays 15. His aggression is on the ball not after the whistle.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 2 Dec - 19:05

Facts are Brown backs his team mates but has rarely if ever gone too far when doing so.

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Post by munkian on Fri 2 Dec - 19:06

Hes a little tit - theres a funny video during the same match where he costs his team a penalty and North pats him on the back and Brown goes mental then realises who it was.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 2 Dec - 19:07

Quality player and if he winds up opposition fans so be it.

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Post by munkian on Fri 2 Dec - 19:19

Im sure this is the match where you can hear AWJ say to the ref 'white 15 is being a dick, Sir' clap

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 2 Dec - 19:21

What a leader. But good you tie the whole thing back to the most overrated player. Well done sir.

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Post by munkian on Fri 2 Dec - 19:24

This is what actually happens - English players take exception to Lydiates's tackle, Lawes gets aresy, Sam goes in to break people up, Brown runs in and tries to start on Warburton who is playing peacemaker, Brown looks like a fanny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21vYA0UJDes
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 2 Dec - 19:30

Brown is fine. AWJ did go too far though, shouldn't be calling people that. Not a great leader at all it turns out. And overrated.

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Post by cakeordeath on Fri 2 Dec - 19:37

Pete330v2 wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:Toxteth O'Grady, USA.

He also has the stickiest bogies

I just want to say well done.

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Post by munkian on Fri 2 Dec - 19:39

No 7&1/2 wrote:Brown is fine. AWJ did go too far though, shouldn't be calling people that. Not a great leader at all it turns out. And overrated.

Ok petal, best let your Mum get you ready for school now eh ? Big day ahead.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 2 Dec - 19:42

Ho, ho, ho. You were write to point out AWJ lack of respect and childishness though as a serious point. Not someone you would count on for the lions.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Fri 2 Dec - 19:48

I say this reluctantly because I think he is a thoroughly decent individual but....

Sam Warburton - probably not even first choice in Wales back row in the opinion of lots of people (Welsh included ) and yet still being toted as a Lion, even captain, next year.

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Post by munkian on Fri 2 Dec - 19:55

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I say this reluctantly because I think he is a thoroughly decent individual but....

Sam Warburton - probably not even first choice in Wales back row in  the opinion of lots of people (Welsh included ) and yet still being toted as a Lion, even captain, next year.

I think people are just making assumptions because Gatland is in charge, not that they think he should be Captain.

I think he should probably tour though for his experience.
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Post by Presuming Ed on Fri 2 Dec - 20:06

AWJ, most overrated. Good player but first on plane to NZ my a*se.

Ireland have some good players but they are truly a case of the sum being greater than the parts. The most underrated individual in world rugby has to be Schmidt for taking Ireland to where they are today without a raft of world class players since retirements. Only the adoring Leinster men seem to appreciate this.

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Post by munkian on Fri 2 Dec - 20:13

Presuming Ed wrote:AWJ, most overrated. Good player but first on plane to NZ my a*se.

Ireland have some good players but they are truly a case of the sum being greater than the parts. The most underrated individual in world rugby has to be Schmidt for taking Ireland to where they are today without a raft of world class players since retirements. Only the adoring Leinster men seem to appreciate this.

Whose actually said this though ?

I think people forget the Lions players are also picked on whose going to be able to blend in well with 4 other Union's players for months on tour, not just the best individuals.

AWJ is revered in Wales because hes matured into a talisman for us (much like POC was for Ireland) and is a fantastic squad player - Wales are lifted when he's playing well.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 2 Dec - 20:38

For England it's a tough one.

I guess it depends who you think is doing the overrating.

I thought Farrell's performance vs Argentina was overrated - he was one of 3 contenders for MOTM when I thought he was disappointing. Normally he gets extra points for goal kicking but he was uncharaceristically poor.

I certainly think he was one of the players who shouldn't have been nominated for world player of the year.

So yes Farrell is overrated. Would not have been on the list if he wasn't England's goal kicker.

Many fans know of Brown's strengths and weaknesses so I wouldn't call him overrated.

For the why is he being picked award? goes to Marland Yarde.

Resting on his laurels award goes to Dan Cole.



For Wales

why is he being picked award goes to Cuthbert.

Resting on his laurels award goes to North.

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Post by Presuming Ed on Fri 2 Dec - 20:40

munkian wrote:
Presuming Ed wrote:AWJ, most overrated. Good player but first on plane to NZ my a*se.

Ireland have some good players but they are truly a case of the sum being greater than the parts. The most underrated individual in world rugby has to be Schmidt for taking Ireland to where they are today without a raft of world class players since retirements. Only the adoring Leinster men seem to appreciate this.

Whose actually said this though ?

I think people forget the Lions players are also picked on whose going to be able to blend in well with 4 other Union's players for months on tour, not just the best individuals.

AWJ is revered in Wales because hes matured into a talisman for us (much like POC was for Ireland) and is a fantastic squad player - Wales are lifted when he's playing well.


Point taken. Does a talisman for Wales make one for the Lions too?

On POC, for me he as a brilliant player and would have excelled in any team.

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Post by munkian on Fri 2 Dec - 20:45

He did Ok leading the 3rd test and hes an experienced tourer. So, possibly ?
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Post by beshocked on Fri 2 Dec - 20:57

I guess the problem is that sometimes being a good leader is good enough to be picked.

I believe there are many locks who are performing better than AWJ on the pitch but AWJ does have the experience and the captaincy experience that others lack.

Hartley is another - he's been solid but unspectacular, he's being picked for England primarily now for his leadership and experience. He's been solid in the set piece but he lacks the all round game that George has now.

Importance to get the right balance between leadership and playing ability/form. The Lions will need to do that.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 2 Dec - 22:33

munkian wrote:This is what actually happens - English players take exception to Lydiates's tackle, Lawes gets aresy, Sam goes in to break people up, Brown runs in and tries to start on Warburton who is playing peacemaker, Brown looks like a fanny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21vYA0UJDes

Brown hardly looked a fanny. He fronted up, fair play to him. It's all for show anyway, he never takes it past the pushing stage, all good fun.

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Post by munkian on Fri 2 Dec - 22:39

He ran in to start a fight with someone who was trying to calm things down, pure fanny.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 2 Dec - 22:42

munkian wrote:He ran in to start a fight with someone who was trying to calm things down, pure fanny.

I don't really understand your definition of "fanny". To me it relates to being a coward, I'd hardly say that Brown's actions would make him a coward, quite the opposite actually. Starting a fight with a flanker with 4 inches on you and 4 stone is rather quite brave if not also a bit stupid at the same time.

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Post by Majestic83 on Fri 2 Dec - 23:22

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
munkian wrote:He ran in to start a fight with someone who was trying to calm things down, pure fanny.

I don't really understand your definition of "fanny". To me it relates to being a coward, I'd hardly say that Brown's actions would make him a coward, quite the opposite actually. Starting a fight with a flanker with 4 inches on you and 4 stone is rather quite brave if not also a bit stupid at the same time.  

I wouldn't say it relates to someone being a coward. It normally relates to someone being an idiot or stupid.
I'd say it is fairly accurate for Mike Brown.

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Post by ebop on Fri 2 Dec - 23:31

Mike Brown runs in like a hard man because he knows no one is going to knock him out. Back in the old days a guy like Mike Brown would get owned. Modern laws protect fools like Mike Brown.
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