Home Nations or Home unions - a misnomer in rugby

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:21 am

The term Home Nations has been been bandied about for decades.  It's used freely within UK media reporting on rugby union as including England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Frankly, it's balderdash.

Ireland does not represent a home nation or a home union in my view.  It's a term that has been in existence before Ireland won its independence in the early 1900s, and definitively in 1921, when the Republic of Ireland was created as a separate sovereign state.

The distinction is acknowledged in soccer already, where Northern Ireland has its own representative team team in European and World championships and is regarded as a Home Nation.  But when it comes to rugby, that is glossed over, because rugby is seen to be based as an all-island sport, based on the four provincial model of Ulster, Leinster, Munster, and Connacht. Thus Home Nations are seen as simply England, Scotland, Wales and all of Ireland, even though it is two separate countries.

There are similarity on the island of Ireland. In some people's minds, Ulster is seen as the same thing as Northern Ireland.  In other minds, Ulster means the 9 counties that historically comprise the age-old province on the island of Ireland. This latter usage is often applied to other sports. And, within Ulster Rugby, its remit is seen to apply to the 9 counties as opposed to the 6 'political' counties.

Leaving that aside, the term of 'home nation' or 'home union' has its origins in the use of "home" - as in the home of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland when it once ruled all on the two principal islands of Great Britain and Ireland.  Such as the Home Office. Or the BBC's now extant Home Service that broadcast to a far greater spread of countries under British rule.

But that that range of rule is no more.  In Ireland's case, for more than 100 years.  The partition of the island of Ireland meant that approx 17% of the land territory of Ireland remained under British rule.  The remainder is not 'home' to British rule, not 'home' to being British, not 'home' to the other way of life that hand chosen to be different and wanted to govern itself in its own right - the Republic of Ireland, the vast majority of the island of Ireland, that is now recognised as Ireland worldwide as an independent sovereign state.

So I say no more to this anachronistic description of a home nation, an assumed state that is subservient to, or perceived part of the British nation.  It's not.  Ireland or the Republic of Ireland stands by its own right.  By its own hard fought for and won independence.   Enough of these lazy, chummy colonial phrases that imply some historical element of belonging to, or continuing part of the British sovereignty, or rule of the UK.    We're not.

It's the Home Nations and Ireland - if a collective is necessary.  Or more simply, Great Britain and Ireland - a descriptor that recognises both islands, one a single rugby union in one, and three rugby unions in the other.
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Post by mid_gen on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 6:22 am

Fine, let's stick to the British Isles....technically correct although I suspect you won't agree!

Does the RFU cover Jersey actually? I forget....

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 7:55 am

Jeez I have no issue with the term. Ireland and the UK still have close ties and that can only be a good thing. Who cares if they call us a home nation. Irish people living in the UK have more rights than other non nationals for example. We also have had a close association with these teams for the whole history of rugby union. Wales are the only nation to have defeated England more than Ireland in world rugby.

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Post by Guest on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 9:35 am

With all of the stuff going on in the world such as the Syria conflict, global terrorism, human trafficking, etc. it seems trivial in the extreme to get hung up on an old term such as 'home'. It's not used to put the Irish down, not used to make Ireland seem 'subservient' as you put it. Classic Irish paranoia. It's just an old fashioned term that's in the vocabulary and gets used out of habit. You're really getting a reputation as whinging about absolutely everything. Cue the Irish Mafia on 606 with a barrage of hatred, abuse and mock outrage to win the argument. First world problems. picard

Do you see the Welsh getting hung up about the term Principality? Hasn't been one since the 15th century. No, it's just an old term stuck in the vocabulary of the masses and is an easy/lazy reference. Who cares?!


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Post by wolfball on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:48 pm

Griff wrote:With all of the stuff going on in the world such as the Syria conflict, global terrorism, human trafficking, etc. it seems trivial in the extreme to get hung up on an old term such as 'home'. It's not used to put the Irish down, not used to make Ireland seem 'subservient' as you put it. Classic Irish paranoia. It's just an old fashioned term that's in the vocabulary and gets used out of habit. You're really getting a reputation as whinging about absolutely everything. Cue the Irish Mafia on 606 with a barrage of hatred, abuse and mock outrage to win the argument. First world problems. picard

Do you seen the Welsh getting hung up about the term Principality? Hasn't been one since the 15th century. No, it's just an old term stuck in the vocabulary of the masses and is an easy/lazy reference. Who cares.

Settle down with the winging on irish paranoia. The only irish people posting have dismissed the original post as silly. I agree with them. Silly post.

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Post by Guest on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 3:34 pm

wolfball wrote:
Griff wrote:With all of the stuff going on in the world such as the Syria conflict, global terrorism, human trafficking, etc. it seems trivial in the extreme to get hung up on an old term such as 'home'. It's not used to put the Irish down, not used to make Ireland seem 'subservient' as you put it. Classic Irish paranoia. It's just an old fashioned term that's in the vocabulary and gets used out of habit. You're really getting a reputation as whinging about absolutely everything. Cue the Irish Mafia on 606 with a barrage of hatred, abuse and mock outrage to win the argument. First world problems. picard

Do you seen the Welsh getting hung up about the term Principality? Hasn't been one since the 15th century. No, it's just an old term stuck in the vocabulary of the masses and is an easy/lazy reference. Who cares.

Settle down with the winging on irish paranoia. The only irish people posting have dismissed the original post as silly. I agree with them. Silly post.

Ummm, there's only been 2 posts apart from me! Is mid_gen Irish?

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 4:34 pm

Yeah that's 5 minutes of my life I can't get back
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 4:45 pm

Was it worth all that effort to write that?

This is surely borderline racist from Pot Hale? Don't you all agree?

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 5:00 pm

Jeez its hardly racist. In fairness part of the Ireland team is in the UK
I have zero issue with Brits calling us a home nation. Doesnt make me feel amy less Irish.

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Post by Breadvan on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 6:02 pm

Don't tell me...you were on balls.ie last night calling Hartley and every other England player various 4 letter words?
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Post by Gwlad on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 8:13 pm

Its not Easter yet is it?

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Post by The Great Aukster on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:50 pm

This is a fair enough thread as it is topical enough considering the Lions traditionally are the 'home nations' team (when did they change their name to B&I rather than just Briitish?). The political sensitivities obviously rankle with some posters so is it time Ireland gracefully withdrew from her Majesty's rugby team that tours a colony every four years?


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Post by Guest on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:59 pm

Might as well go the whole hog and stop speaking English too Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 12:04 am

Griff wrote:Might as well go the whole hog and stop speaking English too Wink

Do we??? I often get accused of speaking anything but Wink

However, I digress. I didn't though realise that the speaking of English proves the concept of 'Home' Nation? The USA will be so sad that they wasted all that perfectly good tea in the pursuit of a fantasy of freedom.

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Post by Guest on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 9:43 am

SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote:Might as well go the whole hog and stop speaking English too Wink

Do we???   I often get accused of speaking anything but Wink

However, I digress.  I didn't though realise that the speaking of English proves the concept of 'Home' Nation?  The USA will be so sad that they wasted all that perfectly good tea in the pursuit of a fantasy of freedom.  

You missed my winky eye, so to speak Wink I learned that from you Fly. It means you're not being completely serious and can get away with being cheeky Wink

But really, if Ireland wants to completely distance itself from GB and the past history, as seems to be the case, then ditching the language 'of the enemy' might be a good shout. Why not?

Edit:
Wink Wink Wink

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Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 12:36 pm

Griff wrote:But really, if Ireland wants to completely distance itself from GB and the past history, as seems to be the case, then ditching the language 'of the enemy' might be a good shout. Why not?

Edit:
Wink Wink Wink

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer - there's more satisfaction in seeing the whites of their eyes as they expire. There could be enough niggle here for an episode of misnomer murders yet...

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 4:32 pm

Griff wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote:Might as well go the whole hog and stop speaking English too Wink

Do we???   I often get accused of speaking anything but Wink

However, I digress.  I didn't though realise that the speaking of English proves the concept of 'Home' Nation?  The USA will be so sad that they wasted all that perfectly good tea in the pursuit of a fantasy of freedom.  

You missed my winky eye, so to speak Wink I learned that from you Fly. It means you're not being completely serious and can get away with being cheeky Wink

But really, if Ireland wants to completely distance itself from GB and the past history, as seems to be the case, then ditching the language 'of the enemy' might be a good shout. Why not?

Edit:
Wink Wink Wink

Sorry Griff.  I actually did miss the 'wink'.  I must have been busy doing 20 things at once... as per usual.  A 'wink' is always good enough by me............. OK

But a point about English; the Irish of the Republic don't want to completely distance themselves from the GB and of course some of the best stylists of said English language happen to be Irish.  What the Irish (some of us) want is that the clarity between Nations is respected in deed and in language.  The Republic is a different Nation, just as France is a different Nation.  France is closer physically to England than Ireland is and has probably as obvious link-ups in historical terms (Normans and all that)  
Yes, Irish people live in the UK, yes we speak mostly in English (our version) but New Zealand doesn't get called a Home Nation and yet it still has the Queen as their head of State and accept her as the figurehead of the Commonwealth.  Same could be said for Australia and Canada. These Nations are politically much more formally linked to the UK (GB as you refer to it) and yet few in the UK would call them Home Nations.


.................................................................................................... Wink


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Post by Cyril on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 4:45 pm

Should the Triple Crown become the Double Crown?

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 4:57 pm

The Triple Crown should become an historic curiosity and have pride of place in the Tower of London with all those other Crowns. Cool


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Post by Guest on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 4:59 pm

Pot Hale wrote:The term Home Nations has been been bandied about for decades.  It's used freely within UK media reporting on rugby union as including England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Frankly, it's balderdash.

Ireland does not represent a home nation or a home union in my view.  It's a term that has been in existence before Ireland won its independence in the early 1900s, and definitively in 1921, when the Republic of Ireland was created as a separate sovereign state.

The distinction is acknowledged in soccer already, where Northern Ireland has its own representative team team in European and World championships and is regarded as a Home Nation.  But when it comes to rugby, that is glossed over, because rugby is seen to be based as an all-island sport, based on the four provincial model of Ulster, Leinster, Munster, and Connacht.  Thus Home Nations are seen as simply England, Scotland, Wales and all of Ireland, even though  it is two separate countries.

There are similarity on the island of Ireland.  In some people's minds, Ulster is seen as the same thing as Northern Ireland.  In other minds, Ulster means the 9 counties that historically comprise the age-old province on the island of Ireland.  This latter usage is often applied to other sports.  And, within Ulster Rugby, its remit is seen to apply to the 9 counties as opposed to the 6 'political' counties.

Leaving that aside, the term of 'home nation' or 'home union' has its origins in the use of "home" - as in the home of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland when it once ruled all on the two principal islands of Great Britain and Ireland.  Such as the Home Office.  Or the BBC's now extant Home Service that broadcast to a far greater spread of countries under British rule.  

But that that range of rule is no more.  In Ireland's case, for more than 100 years.  The partition of the island of Ireland meant that approx 17% of the land territory of Ireland remained under British rule.  The remainder is not 'home' to British rule, not 'home' to being British, not 'home' to the other way of life that hand chosen to be different and wanted to govern itself in its own right - the Republic of Ireland, the vast majority of the island of Ireland, that is now recognised as Ireland worldwide as an independent sovereign state.

So I say no more to this anachronistic description of a home nation, an assumed state that is subservient to, or perceived part of the British nation.  It's not.  Ireland or the Republic of Ireland stands by its own right.  By its own hard fought for and won independence.   Enough of these lazy, chummy colonial phrases that imply some historical element of belonging to, or continuing part of the British sovereignty, or rule of the UK.    We're not.

It's the Home Nations and Ireland - if a collective is necessary.  Or more simply, Great Britain and Ireland - a descriptor that recognises both islands, one a single rugby union in one, and three rugby unions in the other.

But that's only 3/4's true Smile

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Post by Guest on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:14 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The term Home Nations has been been bandied about for decades.  It's used freely within UK media reporting on rugby union as including England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Frankly, it's balderdash.

Ireland does not represent a home nation or a home union in my view.  It's a term that has been in existence before Ireland won its independence in the early 1900s, and definitively in 1921, when the Republic of Ireland was created as a separate sovereign state.

The distinction is acknowledged in soccer already, where Northern Ireland has its own representative team team in European and World championships and is regarded as a Home Nation.  But when it comes to rugby, that is glossed over, because rugby is seen to be based as an all-island sport, based on the four provincial model of Ulster, Leinster, Munster, and Connacht.  Thus Home Nations are seen as simply England, Scotland, Wales and all of Ireland, even though  it is two separate countries.

There are similarity on the island of Ireland.  In some people's minds, Ulster is seen as the same thing as Northern Ireland.  In other minds, Ulster means the 9 counties that historically comprise the age-old province on the island of Ireland.  This latter usage is often applied to other sports.  And, within Ulster Rugby, its remit is seen to apply to the 9 counties as opposed to the 6 'political' counties.

Leaving that aside, the term of 'home nation' or 'home union' has its origins in the use of "home" - as in the home of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland when it once ruled all on the two principal islands of Great Britain and Ireland.  Such as the Home Office.  Or the BBC's now extant Home Service that broadcast to a far greater spread of countries under British rule.  

But that that range of rule is no more.  In Ireland's case, for more than 100 years.  The partition of the island of Ireland meant that approx 17% of the land territory of Ireland remained under British rule.  The remainder is not 'home' to British rule, not 'home' to being British, not 'home' to the other way of life that hand chosen to be different and wanted to govern itself in its own right - the Republic of Ireland, the vast majority of the island of Ireland, that is now recognised as Ireland worldwide as an independent sovereign state.

So I say no more to this anachronistic description of a home nation, an assumed state that is subservient to, or perceived part of the British nation.  It's not.  Ireland or the Republic of Ireland stands by its own right.  By its own hard fought for and won independence.   Enough of these lazy, chummy colonial phrases that imply some historical element of belonging to, or continuing part of the British sovereignty, or rule of the UK.    We're not.

It's the Home Nations and Ireland - if a collective is necessary.  Or more simply, Great Britain and Ireland - a descriptor that recognises both islands, one a single rugby union in one, and three rugby unions in the other.

But that's only 3/4's true Smile

This is a very good point. With NI being part of the U.K., and NI being represented by the all Ireland rugby team and Union then it sort of stands to reason that Ireland is seen as a home nation. And it's only really in rugby that I ever hear the term. Or are people ignoring the UK part of the team? I guess I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat now Wink .

I actually couldn't care less if we never called Ireland 'home' anything again, but there's quite a lot of passionate people in the north that expend a lot of energy and express a lot of raw emotion at being classed as part of the UK (I.e. 'Home'). While the Irish rugby team continues to represent both the North and South is it not, at least in part, arguably 'home'?  I think you either need to separate the two out (in sport) or forever suffer the linkages that the UK part (of Irish rugby) brings with it.

Edit: just to add, wouldn't it actually be a bit of a kick in the face for the NI fans and populace for the UK media not to refer to Ireland (and therefore them) in rugby as home??? After all, they are!


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Post by St John The Enforcer on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:26 pm

At least get the history right. The Republic of Ireland came into being in 1948 not 1921.

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Post by Guest on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:41 pm

I suppose Ireland are a quarter home nation as a sports body, Griff, but I really don't care if it's viewed as a home nation or not.

The IRFU decided that the partition of Ireland would not mean the partition of rugby union in Ireland, and I'm very grateful for that. It's survived intact throughout the partition, the world wars and the Troubles. A people united in their love of the game. That's some achievement Very Happy

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Post by Guest on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:50 pm

Munchkin wrote:I suppose Ireland are a quarter home nation, Griff, but I really don't care if it's viewed as a home nation or not.

The IRFU decided that the partition of Ireland would not mean the partition of rugby union in Ireland, and I'm very grateful for that. It's survived intact throughout the partition, the world wars and the Troubles. A people united in their love of the game. That's some achievement Very Happy

I think it's awesome. A true example of how sport can be inclusive and overcome division, etc. However, this whole thread is about a simple word that the UK media use out of habit more than anything (especially that kn*b Inverdale). It's probably just used as a catch all phrase to avoid saying the 4 countries separately, rather than to denote ownership and master/slave relations as seems to be implied earlier on. While words can be very hurtful and one must not assume that if one set of people are fine with it then others should be too, on this occasion I feel it's a very minor issue. The word 'home' that is, not Ireland's right to be rightly recognised as an independent country. That's hugely important of course.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:54 pm

Pienaar may be the straw that breaks the camel's back though... Whistle


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Post by SecretFly on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 7:06 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:At least get the history right. The Republic of Ireland came into being in 1948 not 1921.

laughing Good one. Let's all get history right and good luck with that given each society has its own preferred version. The 1948 Act was not to create the Republic but to clarify the description 'Republic' within the already existing Constitution of the Irish State.


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Post by Guest on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 7:13 pm

Griff wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I suppose Ireland are a quarter home nation, Griff, but I really don't care if it's viewed as a home nation or not.

The IRFU decided that the partition of Ireland would not mean the partition of rugby union in Ireland, and I'm very grateful for that. It's survived intact throughout the partition, the world wars and the Troubles. A people united in their love of the game. That's some achievement Very Happy

I think it's awesome. A true example of how sport can be inclusive and overcome division, etc. However, this whole thread is about a simple word that the UK media use out of habit more than anything (especially that kn*b Inverdale). It's probably just used as a catch all phrase to avoid saying the 4 countries separately, rather than to denote ownership and master/slave relations as seems to be implied earlier on. While words can be very hurtful and one must not assume that if one set of people are fine with it then others should be too, on this occasion I feel it's a very minor issue. The word 'home' that is, not Ireland's right to be rightly recognised as an independent country. That's hugely important of course.

I agree, Griff. It's not something I think many would have an issue with, and I have a feeling that Pot is being a wee bit mischievous Smile

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Post by Guest on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 7:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:Pienaar may be the straw that breaks the camel's back though... Whistle


Ah, I might be a bit mad with the IRFU about Pienaar, but I wouldn't go that far. I like my nose just where it is Shocked

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Post by St John The Enforcer on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 7:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:At least get the history right. The Republic of Ireland came into being in 1948 not 1921.

laughing Good one.  Let's all get history right and good luck with that given each society has its own preferred version.  The 1948 Act was not to create the Republic but to clarify the description 'Republic' within the already existing Constitution of the Irish State.

so you're arguing that the Republic came into being in 1937?

Nowhere in the 1937 constitution does Republic get a mention.

Simple historical fact no one has any "versions"

1921 = Treaty

1922 = Freestate

1937 = Constitution

1949 = Republic (not 1948. My mistake. That was the year the Government changed and Mulcahy was not allowed become Taoiseach because of his role in the 77 civil war executions, despite leading the largest party)

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 8:33 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:At least get the history right. The Republic of Ireland came into being in 1948 not 1921.

laughing Good one.  Let's all get history right and good luck with that given each society has its own preferred version.  The 1948 Act was not to create the Republic but to clarify the description 'Republic' within the already existing Constitution of the Irish State.

so you're arguing that the Republic came into being in 1937?

Nowhere in the 1937 constitution does Republic get a mention.

Simple historical fact no one has any "versions"

1921 = Treaty

1922 = Freestate

1937 = Constitution

1949 = Republic (not 1948. My mistake. That was the year the Government changed and Mulcahy was not allowed become Taoiseach because of his role in the 77 civil war executions, despite leading the largest party)

The people who initiated the Act that gave the name 'Republic' were the very people that were pointed in saying the Republic already existed. Of course those that were not responsible for the Act (The British Government) of course disagreed. Thus we have versions. I'll choose to agree with the people who already had the power to describe a State. BTW, you really want me to do a versions of History trawl all through the eventful past of this world?

The past is fact - history is a written version of it. History isn't the past.

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Post by St John The Enforcer on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 9:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:

The people who initiated the Act that gave the name 'Republic' were the very people that were pointed in saying the Republic already existed.
Which "Act" are you referring to?  The 1949 declaration of the Republicwas brought in by a government that was a Majority Cumann na nGaedheal. They were on the Treaty side in the civil war. So the opposite side to "the very people that were pointed in saying the Republic already existed"
SecretFly wrote:Of course those that were not responsible for the Act (The British Government) of course disagreed.
What have they got to do with anything in the 26 counties post 1922?
SecretFly wrote:
Thus we have versions.  I'll choose to agree with the people who already had the power to describe a State.
Meaningless waffle
SecretFly wrote: BTW, you really want me to do a versions of History trawl all through the eventful past of this world?
Oh Jaysus please no!

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Post by 2ndtimeround on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:38 am

I stopped reading this thread half way through with the thought why do we let politics into sport?
I think most people are sick to death of politics and politicians, for me sport is about enjoyment and I could never say that about any form of politics.

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 5:40 pm

Munchkin wrote:

I agree, Griff. It's not something I think many would have an issue with, and I have a feeling that Pot is being a wee bit mischievous Smile

Shocked Moi?
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Post by Guest on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 5:52 pm

Why the WUM???

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Post by Guest on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 6:19 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

I agree, Griff. It's not something I think many would have an issue with, and I have a feeling that Pot is being a wee bit mischievous Smile

Shocked Moi?

Just a little Very Happy

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Post by poissonrouge on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 6:27 pm

Looked it up on Wikipedia (that fount of all knowledge)
I quote from there
Despite the partition of Ireland and the secession of the Republic of Ireland from the United Kingdom, the island of Ireland still fields a single sports team and is referred to as a Home Nation in the context of rugby union.
And it even has a reference for clarification of this statement.

Mathew Brown; Patrick Guthrie; Greg Growden (2010), Rugby for Dummies, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 9780470677087, Home Nations: England, Ireland, Scotland Wales [appears in glossary]
Wink
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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:49 pm

poissonrouge wrote:Looked it up on Wikipedia (that fount of all knowledge)
I quote from there
Despite the partition of Ireland and the secession of the Republic of Ireland from the United Kingdom, the island of Ireland still fields a single sports team and is referred to as a Home Nation in the context of rugby union.
And it even has a reference for clarification of this statement.

Mathew Brown; Patrick Guthrie; Greg Growden (2010), Rugby for Dummies, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 9780470677087, Home Nations: England, Ireland, Scotland Wales [appears in glossary]
Wink

Sure, they know nottin.
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Post by tigertattie on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:23 am

Don't go forgetting Wales now! You can't call them a Home nation as Wales isn't a recognised nation! Run
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Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:24 am

To be accurate it should be a home 2 + (2/3 of 1/4) nation plus a second nation and a principality tournament.

Nice ring to it Laugh

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Post by fa0019 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:46 am

Its a name with historical context to the past. Up until the 1993 tour, the British Lions were a) called the British Isles, the union jack was their flag and they played GSTQ before the test matches. If I recall GSTQ stopped in 1997 but the team name and flag only changed in 2001. I think the players of the past, the people of the past had more reason/justification to have complaints than anyone does today.

Personally I think all of Ireland should be proud that their rugby team has stayed united throughout the 20th century regardless.

Chaps like Mike Gibson, David Humphreys, Willie John McBride all proudly ran down to Lansdowne Road to play for their nation... during a team when frankly you could understand why they might not want to in fear of the lives of themselves and their families. Rugby never stopped, fixtures never ended and the rivalry never stemmed beyond the pitch even when England in the 80s were playing 4-5 soldiers/policeman at any one time.

If they would rather say, please don't refer to us as a "home nation" any longer than so be it.... but I myself like to see sport outside of politics and believe rugby has always been a beacon of example to most others.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:49 am

fa0019 wrote: Personally I think all of Ireland should be proud that their rugby team has stayed united throughout the 20th century regardless.
.

We are

To be clear sport staying as a single entity is the norm here in Ireland - hockey, cricket etc etc

Soccer is the exception - unfortunately the only one most outside Ireland knows anything about

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:59 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
fa0019 wrote: Personally I think all of Ireland should be proud that their rugby team has stayed united throughout the 20th century regardless.
.

We are

To be clear sport staying as a single entity is the norm here in Ireland - hockey, cricket etc etc

Soccer is the exception - unfortunately the only one most outside Ireland knows anything about

Thats only because soccer is the sport of neanderthals. Can you imagine the carry on there would be if you mixed the two sets of soccer ball fans together?
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:49 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
fa0019 wrote: Personally I think all of Ireland should be proud that their rugby team has stayed united throughout the 20th century regardless.
.

We are

To be clear sport staying as a single entity is the norm here in Ireland - hockey, cricket etc etc

Soccer is the exception - unfortunately the only one most outside Ireland knows anything about

To add to that list golf, olympic sports, basketball, boxing, gaelic games, lawn-bowls, rugby league, horse racing, literally all sports other than soccer and snooker have all Ireland governing bodies.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:01 pm

That's the puzzle.  It's only when soccer, snooker and politics is the Heading that the idea of All Ireland becomes a divisive issue.  That's actually the volte-face sadness of the particular topic.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:05 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
fa0019 wrote: Personally I think all of Ireland should be proud that their rugby team has stayed united throughout the 20th century regardless.
.

We are

To be clear sport staying as a single entity is the norm here in Ireland - hockey, cricket etc etc

Soccer is the exception - unfortunately the only one most outside Ireland knows anything about

To add to that list golf, olympic sports, basketball, boxing, gaelic games, lawn-bowls, rugby league, horse racing, literally all sports other than soccer and snooker have all Ireland governing bodies.
NI is separate in golf is it not?

In Olympics NI is counted as part of team GB so I'd suggest this is also not an "All Ireland" affair!
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:18 pm

No NI is not separate in golf. NI golfers such as Rory Mcilroy come through the GUI. He also represented Ireland in the world cup, Eisenhower trophy, and European Amateur Team Championship as an amature.

NI is not necessarily counted as part of the GB team. The olympic council of Ireland covers he whole island of Ireland but the GB team allows NI residents in team GB even though NI is not part of GB. Team GB has also tried to poach Ireland athletes in the past like Katie Taylor so its hardly surprising.


Last edited by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:23 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:19 pm

tigertattie wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
fa0019 wrote: Personally I think all of Ireland should be proud that their rugby team has stayed united throughout the 20th century regardless.
.

We are

To be clear sport staying as a single entity is the norm here in Ireland - hockey, cricket etc etc

Soccer is the exception - unfortunately the only one most outside Ireland knows anything about

To add to that list golf, olympic sports, basketball, boxing, gaelic games, lawn-bowls, rugby league, horse racing, literally all sports other than soccer and snooker have all Ireland governing bodies.
NI is separate in golf is it not?

In Olympics NI is counted as part of team GB so I'd suggest this is also not an "All Ireland" affair!

He's referring to the governing bodies.  The golfing governing body is, I think, all Ireland.  Of course then players get to decide (and did Whistle ) when that All Ireland aspect is divided up into Republic and Northern Ireland (Team GB).  The sporting bodies don't rule on passports and politics.


Last edited by SecretFly on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:19 pm

Oh Guns has already answered .... sorry.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:38 pm

All gets very confusing!

I'm looking forward to the day when we find out there's life out in the universe! Will clarify things no end!

The New Ryder cup of golf.
Team Earth vs Omicron Persei 8
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Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:56 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:No NI is not separate in golf. NI golfers such as Rory Mcilroy come through the GUI. He also represented Ireland in the world cup, Eisenhower trophy, and European Amateur Team Championship as an amature.

NI is not necessarily counted as part of the GB team. The olympic council of Ireland covers he whole island of Ireland but the GB team allows NI residents in team GB even though NI is not part of GB. Team GB has also tried to poach Ireland athletes in the past like Katie Taylor so its hardly surprising.

Sorry Guns but you are incorrect, "team GB" is supposedly like Haskell - a brand.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37058920

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