Home Nations or Home unions - a misnomer in rugby

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:21 am

First topic message reminder :

The term Home Nations has been been bandied about for decades.  It's used freely within UK media reporting on rugby union as including England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Frankly, it's balderdash.

Ireland does not represent a home nation or a home union in my view.  It's a term that has been in existence before Ireland won its independence in the early 1900s, and definitively in 1921, when the Republic of Ireland was created as a separate sovereign state.

The distinction is acknowledged in soccer already, where Northern Ireland has its own representative team team in European and World championships and is regarded as a Home Nation.  But when it comes to rugby, that is glossed over, because rugby is seen to be based as an all-island sport, based on the four provincial model of Ulster, Leinster, Munster, and Connacht. Thus Home Nations are seen as simply England, Scotland, Wales and all of Ireland, even though it is two separate countries.

There are similarity on the island of Ireland. In some people's minds, Ulster is seen as the same thing as Northern Ireland.  In other minds, Ulster means the 9 counties that historically comprise the age-old province on the island of Ireland. This latter usage is often applied to other sports. And, within Ulster Rugby, its remit is seen to apply to the 9 counties as opposed to the 6 'political' counties.

Leaving that aside, the term of 'home nation' or 'home union' has its origins in the use of "home" - as in the home of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland when it once ruled all on the two principal islands of Great Britain and Ireland.  Such as the Home Office. Or the BBC's now extant Home Service that broadcast to a far greater spread of countries under British rule.

But that that range of rule is no more.  In Ireland's case, for more than 100 years.  The partition of the island of Ireland meant that approx 17% of the land territory of Ireland remained under British rule.  The remainder is not 'home' to British rule, not 'home' to being British, not 'home' to the other way of life that hand chosen to be different and wanted to govern itself in its own right - the Republic of Ireland, the vast majority of the island of Ireland, that is now recognised as Ireland worldwide as an independent sovereign state.

So I say no more to this anachronistic description of a home nation, an assumed state that is subservient to, or perceived part of the British nation.  It's not.  Ireland or the Republic of Ireland stands by its own right.  By its own hard fought for and won independence.   Enough of these lazy, chummy colonial phrases that imply some historical element of belonging to, or continuing part of the British sovereignty, or rule of the UK.    We're not.

It's the Home Nations and Ireland - if a collective is necessary.  Or more simply, Great Britain and Ireland - a descriptor that recognises both islands, one a single rugby union in one, and three rugby unions in the other.
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Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:21 pm

Team GB doesn't even recognise us - if I had talent at a sport sufficient to make the Olympics I would choose Ireland for that reason alone.

Should be Team UK




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Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:22 pm

SecretFly wrote:That's the puzzle.  It's only when soccer, snooker and politics is the Heading that the idea of All Ireland becomes a divisive issue.  That's actually the volte-face sadness of the particular topic.

So basically it is only the things without value where we are divided - that has been my experience in life as well.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:23 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Team GB doesn't even recognise us - if I had talent at a sport sufficient to make the Olympics I would choose Ireland for that reason alone.

Should be Team UK




Exactly

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:26 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:No NI is not separate in golf. NI golfers such as Rory Mcilroy come through the GUI. He also represented Ireland in the world cup, Eisenhower trophy, and European Amateur Team Championship as an amature.

NI is not necessarily counted as part of the GB team. The olympic council of Ireland covers he whole island of Ireland but the GB team allows NI residents in team GB even though NI is not part of GB. Team GB has also tried to poach Ireland athletes in the past like Katie Taylor so its hardly surprising.

Sorry Guns but you are incorrect, "team GB" is supposedly like Haskell - a brand.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37058920

Not sure how that makes me wrong. In any case you cant just enter a brand into the Olympics.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:26 pm

As per the previous link Team UK would also be wrong.

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Post by rodders on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:29 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:At least get the history right. The Republic of Ireland came into being in 1948 not 1921.

Really? I presumed it emerged 400 million odd years ago with the rest of the Island?

That explains why Northerners are more advanced I suppose angel .
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As per the previous link Team UK would also be wrong.

And? Team uk would be less wrong than team GB

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:31 pm

Yup, but rolls off the tongue less well!

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Post by fa0019 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 3:12 pm

As long as it doesn't offend anyone what does it matter?

Happy for others to laugh at the fact that the UK can't decide what name, what status, what collection to compete in sport with. Its stupid but it is what it is

like at the olympics when North Korea comes out as "the Democratic People's Republic of Korea"

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Post by Guest on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 5:02 pm

tigertattie wrote:Don't go forgetting Wales now! You can't call them a Home nation as Wales isn't a recognised nation! Run

Isn't it? You might want to check your facts. That's either the weakest WUM ever or incredibly ignorant! Based on it being you I'm guessing the latter Smile

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Post by Guest on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 5:03 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:To be accurate it should be a home 2 + (2/3 of 1/4) nation plus a second nation and a principality tournament.

Nice ring to it Laugh

Which one is the Principality?

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 5:10 pm

Griff wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Don't go forgetting Wales now! You can't call them a Home nation as Wales isn't a recognised nation! Run

Isn't it? You might want to check your facts. That's either the weakest WUM ever or incredibly ignorant! Based on it being you I'm guessing the latter Smile
Not really. The UN for example don't recognise England, Wales, Scotland or NI as separate states, as they are all governed by the UK government. You don't have a Welsh passport.

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Post by Guest on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 5:38 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Griff wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Don't go forgetting Wales now! You can't call them a Home nation as Wales isn't a recognised nation! Run

Isn't it? You might want to check your facts. That's either the weakest WUM ever or incredibly ignorant! Based on it being you I'm guessing the latter Smile
Not really. The UN for example don't recognise England, Wales, Scotland or NI as separate states, as they are all governed by the UK government. You don't have a Welsh passport.

Two points: Firstly, Wales is not a separate state, true, but it is officially a country in its own right. Just not a sovereign one. That'll be the UK. It is also classed as a nation in its own right. So the post I was replying to was incorrect in stating that we were not a nation. Secondly, I'm not sure why he was singling Wales out as we've got the same status as England and Scotland (not sure about NI). So if we're not a recognised nation by his definition then neither are the other parts of the UK! But we know now that that is incorrect.

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:29 pm

A nation is a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of their neighbours.

Karl Deutsch.
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Post by Guest on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:48 pm

Pot Hale wrote:A nation is a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of their neighbours.

Karl Deutsch.


Very apt quote.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:19 pm

Griff wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Griff wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Don't go forgetting Wales now! You can't call them a Home nation as Wales isn't a recognised nation! Run

Isn't it? You might want to check your facts. That's either the weakest WUM ever or incredibly ignorant! Based on it being you I'm guessing the latter Smile
Not really. The UN for example don't recognise England, Wales, Scotland or NI as separate states, as they are all governed by the UK government. You don't have a Welsh passport.

Two points: Firstly, Wales is not a separate state, true, but it is officially a country in its own right. Just not a sovereign one. That'll be the UK. It is also classed as a nation in its own right. So the post I was replying to was incorrect in stating that we were not a nation. Secondly, I'm not sure why he was singling Wales out as we've got the same status as England and Scotland (not sure about NI). So if we're not a recognised nation by his definition then neither are the other parts of the UK! But we know now that that is incorrect.
By whom are the Welsh officially recognised as a nation?

Wales is recognised as a country by the UK and as a region by the EU. The Welsh language is recognised as an official language of Wales. I am not aware that the Welsh are officially recognised as a nation by anyone. The same applies to England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

I should make it clear that this is not a derogatory comment just a statement of fact. I am perfectly happy to recognise the Welsh as a nation.

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Post by Guest on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:29 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Griff wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Griff wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Don't go forgetting Wales now! You can't call them a Home nation as Wales isn't a recognised nation! Run

Isn't it? You might want to check your facts. That's either the weakest WUM ever or incredibly ignorant! Based on it being you I'm guessing the latter Smile
Not really. The UN for example don't recognise England, Wales, Scotland or NI as separate states, as they are all governed by the UK government. You don't have a Welsh passport.

Two points: Firstly, Wales is not a separate state, true, but it is officially a country in its own right. Just not a sovereign one. That'll be the UK. It is also classed as a nation in its own right. So the post I was replying to was incorrect in stating that we were not a nation. Secondly, I'm not sure why he was singling Wales out as we've got the same status as England and Scotland (not sure about NI). So if we're not a recognised nation by his definition then neither are the other parts of the UK! But we know now that that is incorrect.
By whom are the Welsh officially recognised as a nation?

Wales is recognised as a country by the UK and as a region by the EU. The Welsh language is recognised as an official language of Wales. I am not aware that the Welsh are officially recognised as a nation by anyone. The same applies to England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

I should make it clear that this is not a derogatory comment just a statement of fact. I am perfectly happy to recognise the Welsh as a nation.

I'm not sure any nation in the world is officially recognised as a nation. "A nation is, by definition, a cultural unit of a collection of people with a shared set of values, traditions, history, geographical area, language and religion. As Wales has all of these, it is therefore a nation. The Welsh are a nation of peoples distinct from other nations, such as its neighbours England, Scotland and Ireland." A country is the geographical boundary and the nation is, broadly, the people within it.

Not sure who gets to decide on this world wide though?

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:02 pm

Try and govern yourselves then.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:04 pm

There are probably individual states of the USA that meet that definition too.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:08 pm

The US of UK?

Team USUK?

Hmmmm..... I'm not sure that's gonna be popular.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:26 pm

Griff wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:To be accurate it should be a home 2 + (2/3 of 1/4) nation plus a second nation and a principality tournament.

Nice ring to it Laugh

Which one is the Principality?

Wales

Unlike Scotland and what used to be Ireland and is now Northern Ireland there is no act of Union between 2 nations.
Wales has never had the status of an independent political entity

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Post by Guest on Wed 14 Dec 2016, 7:52 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Griff wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:To be accurate it should be a home 2 + (2/3 of 1/4) nation plus a second nation and a principality tournament.

Nice ring to it Laugh

Which one is the Principality?

Wales

Unlike Scotland and what used to be Ireland and is now Northern Ireland there is no act of Union between 2 nations.
Wales has never had the status of an independent political entity

Wales is not a Principality. Hasn't been since the 15th century. It's just a lazy term. Like 'home nation' is for the whole of Ireland.

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Post by Guest on Wed 14 Dec 2016, 8:01 am

Scottrf wrote:There are probably individual states of the USA that meet that definition too.

I didn't make up the defintion! Take it up with the powers that be.

Actually, thinking about it the term 'nation' it probably applies more to countries like those of the UK where we have complex geopolitical makeups than to elsewhere. Most counties have their own sovereignty, etc. Where individual countries of the UK do not have sovereignty, but do have geographical boundaries and distinct groups of people with their own languages, traditions and cultures (I.e. Scottish, Irish, English, Welsh) then it perhaps becomes pertinent to recognise the nations that form that sovereign state.

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 14 Dec 2016, 9:54 am

If we are being exact about things then there is no such thing as a "nation"

Nations are constantly changing and evolving and aren't defined by sign posts, governments, assemblies, etc!

It's a group of people who share things like traditions and customs. It's a community!

Look at the Sioux Nation - They roamed around the land that became the USA. No boundaries, but a group of people!
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Post by Guest on Wed 14 Dec 2016, 10:39 am

tigertattie wrote:If we are being exact about things then there is no such thing as a "nation"

Nations are constantly changing and evolving and aren't defined by sign posts, governments, assemblies, etc!

It's a group of people who share things like traditions and customs. It's a community!

Look at the Sioux Nation - They roamed around the land that became the USA. No boundaries, but a group of people!

Exactly, nation is used to describe the people in the country that have a certain cultural identity. With the great movement of people worldwide that we have now nation describes perhaps the indigenous people (for want of a better word) that have certain traditions, languages and culture (e.g. Welsh people with the language, Eisteddfods, etc.). That's what I meant earlier when I said that when you have 4 countries coming together to form a sovereign state (like in UK) then as well as the country borders separating them, the differences, the individuality and the identities of the peoples of that state can be recognised in terms of 'nation'.

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