Eng in India

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Eng in India

Post by alfie on Thu 08 Dec 2016, 9:44 am

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway Smile

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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:05 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Earlier during the coverage they were saying they may look to reducing Test matches to four days. I sincerely hope not. Test cricket is the finest form of the sport and far more intriguing than the wham-bam thank you ma'am style of limited overs cricket. But something tells me the powers that be are only interested in what format makes them the most money even if it is to the detriment of test match cricket.

Do that and you may as well limit each innings to 90 overs to make sure both sides get to bat twice... Sad

Too true.

People should remember that without test cricket there would be no short formatted toy cricket.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:08 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
VTR wrote:I'm with Olly, it's that plus the media scrutiny etc, it's not just a normal job. Yes, it's been poor but any success would be in spite of the ridiculous schedule. I think England end the series having played 18 tests in 12 months, that must be close to if not some kind of record

Craig, last win in India was four tests. Win in the ashes had some decent warm up games and neither were back to back with another test series


Just done a few quick calculations and even playing 5 test series a year (say a total of 25 matches) only works out at 125 days' play (assuming they all go the distance). Add another 50 days for ODI and T20 series and thats still only 175 days a year.

That still leaves 190 days for rest / holidays, travel etc.

And thats not allowing for the fact the playing squad gets shuffled for ODIs and T20 matches.

If the schedule were managed sensibly (i.e. no back to back series) I'm not sure why the players would be suffering that much fatigue...

Well that is the key isn't it ? Don't think think this particular tour fits that definition...

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:13 am

Anyway : as to this match.

India remain firmly on course for the win...the more so now as Root's spirited innings comes to an end ; but it is definitely heartening that he and Bairstow at least produced a fighting partnership to make India work a bit.
Hopefully Stokes & co can continue the battle and push this to a fifth day...

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Re: Eng in India

Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:21 am

Oh well - good effort by Root. Looks like he just misjudged the length of that one and gets trapped lbw.

England really needed more (a lot more) from him if they were going to save this match, but at least he didn't fall wondering.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:33 am

What was with Bruce Oxenford's reaction there? India claimed a catch and Bairstow reviewed immediately and Oxenford turned away shaking his head as if to say not another review. Incredible when you consider it was nowhere near being out as well.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:33 am

Good point made on cricinfo.

If Root had reviewed his lbw decision (''in hope'' as that blundering oaf Botham suggested on comms and then queried why he didn't), the decision would not only have been upheld but it would also used up England's last review. That would then have resulted in Bairstow being unable to review on the two occasions he's subsequently done so successfully when initially given ''out'' due to howlers.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:34 am

Think Root (and YJB) deserve a lot of credit for that effort against quality spin bowling on a pitch that was doing plenty to assist them.

Pitch hasn't fallen apart ; but there has been enough throughout for good spinners to make life hard for any batsmen. I am , on balance , mainly critical of England's spinners for not being able to exert persistent pressure on the Indian bats. Simple fact is they aren't in the class of Ashwin & co ; but their performance here was still disappointing.

The umpiring lately has been dodgy ; twice Bairstow has been fingered wrongly...and fortunately has had drs to save himself. The umpires shouldn't get overexcited by loud appeals...

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Re: Eng in India

Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:36 am

guildfordbat wrote:Good point made on cricinfo.

If Root had reviewed his lbw decision (''in hope'' as that blundering oaf Botham suggested on comms and then queried why he didn't), the decision would not only have been upheld but it would also used up England's last review. That would then have resulted in Bairstow being unable to review on the two occasions he's subsequently done so successfully when initially given ''out'' due to howlers.

Reviews certainly have played a major part in this series, one way or another...
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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:49 am

Fifty for YJB clap

Gutsy effort. KP f said he wouldn't last five minutes when he first came in...and he did look to be struggling. But he's battled through wonderfully well.

Stokes gone though to a rather unfortunate bat to boot and caught ...and amazing the same umpire who's blundered twice recently got that one right !

India closing in...

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Re: Eng in India

Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 10:52 am

5 wickets left...another 50 needed to make India bat again. It could just happen.

Of course that would depend on whether anyone can hang around with Bairstow who is doing a fine job of picking up where Root left off. Hard fought 50 there.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:01 am

guildfordbat wrote:Good point made on cricinfo.

If Root had reviewed his lbw decision (''in hope'' as that blundering oaf Botham suggested on comms and then queried why he didn't), the decision would not only have been upheld but it would also used up England's last review. That would then have resulted in Bairstow being unable to review on the two occasions he's subsequently done so successfully when initially given ''out'' due to howlers.

Good point indeed , guildford (you really don't like Botham , do you Smile

Perhaps another sign of Root's growing maturity He has been known to waste reviews in the past in forlorn hopes...

Pitches like this make reviews very important !

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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:05 am

alfie wrote:Fifty for YJB clap

Gutsy effort.  KP f said he wouldn't last five minutes when he first came in...and he did look to be struggling. But he's battled through wonderfully well.

Stokes gone though to a rather unfortunate bat to boot and caught ...and amazing the same umpire who's blundered twice recently got that one right !

India closing in...

Hi Alfie - yep, gutsy and good batting from Bairstow following Root's very decent contribution. As we all knew would be the case, batting here second dig is very difficult. That's why I was droning on so much on days one and two that we had to make more then of our promising start - whilst it wasn't easy then to score runs, it certainly was easier than now.

And to cap it all ... the all too often gifted wicket of a nightwatchman!

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:07 am

Night watchman Ball out at the end ...done his job , as Buttler can start in the morning.

Can the two keepers make India bat again ? Fifty-fifty I think. And rather a non-issue as they have lost about three too many wickets today anyway. But good to see they didn't just toss it away tonight.

Root and Bairstow showed you can make runs on this even against these good spinners. But eventually one with your name on it comes along...
England's spinners just can't match that kind of threat even on a turning pitch. I think length and pace variation are the main difference ; but they are being compared with some very good bowlers on their home turf so don't wish to be too harsh.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:13 am

A road map does seem pretty irrelevant now as the result is set in stone but here goes.

England must aim to bat through to lunch tomorrow reaching around 290 for 7 (no fewer wickets than that down). In the afternoon tried to reach around 375 before being bowled out by mid-afternoon. By tea the dream would be to reduce India to around 50 for 3. In the final session apply more pressure and hope the pitch has become unplayable and hope to bowl India out for around 100. Bear in mind I DO NOT think this has the slightest chance of happening but is a route to victory that England must look for.

India's road map, on the other hand, is pretty much the most likely scenario. Early wickets tomorrow and reduce England to being all out by lunch for around 260 leaving them to knock off a meagre total of around 30 without any alarm.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:13 am

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Fifty for YJB clap

Gutsy effort.  KP f said he wouldn't last five minutes when he first came in...and he did look to be struggling. But he's battled through wonderfully well.

Stokes gone though to a rather unfortunate bat to boot and caught ...and amazing the same umpire who's blundered twice recently got that one right !

India closing in...

Hi Alfie - yep, gutsy and good batting from Bairstow following Root's very decent contribution. As we all knew would be the case, batting here second dig is very difficult. That's why I was droning on so much on days one and two that we had to make more then of our promising start - whilst it wasn't easy then to score runs, it certainly was easier than now.

And to cap it all ... the all too often gifted wicket of a nightwatchman!

Hey guilford - yes your feeling that 400 wasn't enough has proved all too true...though I tend to the view that that outcome is more down to the failures of England's bowlers : if it was a 450 pitch , it surely wasn't a 630 pitch !
Heard some talk that batting on days two and three might be easier than day one : as I missed much of that action I can't say ; but surely the bounce and spin evident late on day one cannot have disappeared for virtually the entire Indian innings ? It seems to have returned Smile

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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:18 am

I think the blueprint for how to counter India's spinners was shown by Root and Bairstow today. That is how England should have approached the first innings and is basically how Kohli batted. Look to score not merely survive. Get to the pitch of the spinning ball and smother the spin and mess with the spinnners heads. England didn't do that enough in the first innings and paid for it in the end.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:21 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:A road map does seem pretty irrelevant now as the result is set in stone but here goes.

England must aim to bat through to lunch tomorrow reaching around 290 for 7 (no fewer wickets than that down). In the afternoon tried to reach around 375 before being bowled out by mid-afternoon. By tea the dream would be to reduce India to around 50 for 3. In the final session apply more pressure and hope the pitch has become unplayable and hope to bowl India out for around 100. Bear in mind I DO NOT think this has the slightest chance of happening but is a route to victory that England must look for.

India's road map, on the other hand, is pretty much the most likely scenario. Early wickets tomorrow and reduce England to being all out by lunch for around 260 leaving them to knock off a meagre total of around 30 without any alarm.


Definitely the latter. Laugh

If we were playing in English conditions, I'd back the JBs (JB1 and JB2?) but they are too attack-minded to last long I feel. They'll give it a go, but go down swinging. Routine win for the hosts, either by lunch, or not long after. Might even be a delayed lunch so India can complete their victory.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:21 am

alfie wrote:Night watchman Ball out at the end ...done his job, as Buttler can start in the morning.

Can the two keepers make India bat again ?  Fifty-fifty I think.  And rather a non-issue as they have lost about three too many wickets today anyway.   But good to see they didn't just toss it away tonight.

Root and Bairstow showed you can make runs on this even against these good spinners. But eventually one with your name on it comes along...
England's spinners just can't match that kind of threat even on a turning pitch.  I think length and pace variation are the main difference ; but they are being compared with some very good bowlers on their home turf so don't wish to be too harsh.

Hi again Alfie - Atherton (and he's one I do like!) said the same on Sky. However, I was far less convinced. Felt that if we were going down the night watchman route, he not only had to see us to stumps but also hang around for at least 40 minutes in the morning. Ball's dismissal helped to boost India's morale even higher and increases the chances of a 'proper' batsman being left stranded when the tenth wicket falls tomorrow.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:32 am

alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Fifty for YJB clap

Gutsy effort.  KP f said he wouldn't last five minutes when he first came in...and he did look to be struggling. But he's battled through wonderfully well.

Stokes gone though to a rather unfortunate bat to boot and caught ...and amazing the same umpire who's blundered twice recently got that one right !

India closing in...

Hi Alfie - yep, gutsy and good batting from Bairstow following Root's very decent contribution. As we all knew would be the case, batting here second dig is very difficult. That's why I was droning on so much on days one and two that we had to make more then of our promising start - whilst it wasn't easy then to score runs, it certainly was easier than now.

And to cap it all ... the all too often gifted wicket of a nightwatchman!

Hey guilford - yes your feeling that 400 wasn't enough has proved all too true...though I tend to the view that that outcome is more down to the failures of England's bowlers : if it was a 450 pitch , it surely wasn't a 630 pitch !

Heard some talk that batting on days two and three might be easier than day one : as I missed much of that action I can't say ; but surely the bounce and spin evident late on day one cannot have disappeared for virtually the entire Indian innings ?  It seems to have returned Smile

Hi Alfie - our posts crossing. Yeah, can't disagree with your view there. 450+ was realistic imo and would have given us more of an advantage and kept us in the game longer but still wouldn't have adequately compensated for India's 630. Agreed with your earlier post as well about the performance of our spinners. No doubt msp will be on a bit later with Man of the Match claims for Rashid's fourfer! Whistle

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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 11:43 am

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Fifty for YJB clap

Gutsy effort.  KP f said he wouldn't last five minutes when he first came in...and he did look to be struggling. But he's battled through wonderfully well.

Stokes gone though to a rather unfortunate bat to boot and caught ...and amazing the same umpire who's blundered twice recently got that one right !

India closing in...

Hi Alfie - yep, gutsy and good batting from Bairstow following Root's very decent contribution. As we all knew would be the case, batting here second dig is very difficult. That's why I was droning on so much on days one and two that we had to make more then of our promising start - whilst it wasn't easy then to score runs, it certainly was easier than now.

And to cap it all ... the all too often gifted wicket of a nightwatchman!

Hey guilford - yes your feeling that 400 wasn't enough has proved all too true...though I tend to the view that that outcome is more down to the failures of England's bowlers : if it was a 450 pitch , it surely wasn't a 630 pitch !

Heard some talk that batting on days two and three might be easier than day one : as I missed much of that action I can't say ; but surely the bounce and spin evident late on day one cannot have disappeared for virtually the entire Indian innings ?  It seems to have returned Smile

Hi Alfie - our posts crossing. Yeah, can't disagree with your view there. 450+ was realistic imo and would have given us more of an advantage and kept us in the game longer but still wouldn't have adequately compensated for India's 630. Agreed with your earlier post as well about the performance of our spinners. No doubt msp will be on a bit later with Man of the Match claims for Rashid's fourfer! Whistle

Your nemesis made a very valid point though. He pointed to England dropping catches and missing stumping of all of India's big scorers Vijay, Kohli and Yavant. If the chances had been taken about 280 runs would have been saved.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 12:14 pm

True, Craig, but I already knew that and would have thought most others did too.

I accept it takes all sorts and any particular commentator is unlikely to be everyone's cup of tea. For me though, I just can't stomach Botham. Comes across as ill informed and lazy as to any research, in contrast to most of his fellow commentators.

Nothing to do with wanting at all times a younger or more modern perspective. Lloyd is older but I find him having a good overview (when not playing the fool) with interesting examples from years gone by.

Botham just seems to be trading on his reputation as an entertaining and successful player. Sky seem to have been hoodwinked (or, at least, are happy to hoodwink their subscribers) into believing that automatically makes him a decent analyst.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by James100 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 12:54 pm

guildfordbat wrote:True, Craig, but I already knew that and would have thought most others did too.

I accept it takes all sorts and any particular commentator is unlikely to be everyone's cup of tea. For me though, I just can't stomach Botham. Comes across as ill informed and lazy as to any research, in contrast to most of his fellow commentators.

Nothing to do with wanting at all times a younger or more modern perspective. Lloyd is older but I find him having a good overview (when not playing the fool) with interesting examples from years gone by.

Botham just seems to be trading on his reputation as an entertaining and successful player. Sky seem to have been hoodwinked (or, at least, are happy to hoodwink their subscribers) into believing that automatically makes him a decent analyst.

Agree with Guildford pretty much 100% on the Sky commentators—for me they're mostly decent to good (better overall than TMS imo), with Atherton the peak and Botham way down at the bottom.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 1:15 pm

Good fight yet from England. At 49-3, seemed they had given up. But determined effort from Joe Root, and valuable support from Bairstow. Think at 3 down, India relaxed just a touch mentally. But they pulled things back at the end of the session by getting Root and Stokes, and disposing off the nightwatchman without much fuss. Should not let Bairstow and Buttler get too many in the morning. For England, they just have to stay positive, look to really take the attack to the bowler. It may or may not come off, but if it does, that is their best chance to retrieve something from a situation of no hope that things hade become when the Indian innings ended and then when they found themselves at 49-3.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 1:33 pm

Ah, I see Guildford still things Rashid's inability to bulldoze through a batting lineup that knows a few things about batting in spinning condition is the single most important reason why England haven't won the series 4-0 already!
We have gone over these earlier, still, Rashid has been England's most successful bowler in the series. He has taken top order wickets, he has taken lower order wickets, he did put the Indian batsmen under considerable pressure in the last day of the first test that was England's best ever chance in the series but came across a determined Indian captain eventually.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 1:35 pm

Rashid is no Warne, he's not Anil Kumble not just in terms of style but also control and skill. This is his first tour to India as a test bowler. At the start of the tour, people were discussing why it should have been 39 year old county sensation Gareth Batty who was all set to run through the Indian batting lineup who should have played ahead of him. They were talking about how Zafar Ansari is miles better as a spin option over Rashid. At the start of the series, Rashid didn't have the confidence of his skipper who in anyways is absolutely atrocious as captain to spinners as he lacks a clear sense about how to use them and how to set fields for them. If we have forgotten, Graeme Swann is long retired. He was the last world class spinner England produced. And he was separated by nearly 30 years from the previous world class spinner they had. It is like India and world class fast bowlers. As for India, over the years, there is Kapil, then Srinath, then Zaheer. Shami does look like joining them eventually if things go in the right direction. The point is, that they don't come along that well. Ashley Giles and Monty Panesar, pretty good England spinners in recent times, had the batting quality led by Kevin Pietersen and others, besides Flintoff, Anderson and to a lesser extend Stuart Broad who were pretty good in subcontinent conditions with the ball.
Anyways Rashid can take heart from the fact that things have evolved from wanting him to be dropped for Batty and Ansari at the beginning of the series to expecting him to run through Virat Kohli and Cheteshwar Pujara led lineup all by himself, though he just isn't going to do that anytime soon in his career as he's not that good, he's only the best that they've got.......

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 1:44 pm

Meanwhile, Shami and Wriddhiman Saha won't be available for the final test....... India badly missed Shami during the England first innings, but it is much more important to preserve him, so should be rested and brought back for the Australia series. And Parthiv ahead of Saha fair enough, I'd have preferred Rishabh Pant, but the management and selectors think he needs more molding.......

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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 1:47 pm

msp83 wrote:Ah, I see Guildford still things Rashid's inability to bulldoze through a batting lineup that knows a few things about batting in spinning condition is the single most important reason why England haven't won the series 4-0 already!
We have gone over these earlier, still, Rashid has been England's most successful bowler in the series. He has taken top order wickets, he has taken lower order wickets, he did put the Indian batsmen under considerable pressure in the last day of the first test that was England's best ever chance in the series but came across a determined Indian captain eventually.

Thought you would bite. What kept you? Wink

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 2:21 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
msp83 wrote:Ah, I see Guildford still things Rashid's inability to bulldoze through a batting lineup that knows a few things about batting in spinning condition is the single most important reason why England haven't won the series 4-0 already!
We have gone over these earlier, still, Rashid has been England's most successful bowler in the series. He has taken top order wickets, he has taken lower order wickets, he did put the Indian batsmen under considerable pressure in the last day of the first test that was England's best ever chance in the series but came across a determined Indian captain eventually.

Thought you would bite. What kept you? Wink
This is one area where I find you unusually stubborn! Had a recent encounter with Mahendra Singh Dhoni?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 2:31 pm

As I see it the debate for England is Rashid V Ali.

Rashid may perhaps be fractionally more likely to take wickets than Ali but in doing so he will leak more runs. There are long spells in matches (particularly in English conditions) when the spinner bowls to tie an end down, apply pressure by throttling run scoring but sadly Rashid is not up to this task due to his rank ball an over that relieves the pressure. On top of that Ali has proven himself as a bit more useful with the bat than Rashid. For those reasons I'd expect England to stick with Ali when they go with the solitary spinner.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 2:42 pm

More seriously, I find it difficult to make a call on Rashid.

I feel Alfie has well and fairly summed up his successes and failures earlier on this thread. I'll acknowledge that Rashid hasn't been as dreadful as I expected and that others have been worse than I hoped.

Furthermore, it's not feasible for anyone else to take his place on this tour now. He's also taken wickets as msp keeps stating until my eyes bulge and my ears explode! However, his lack of penetration amongst top order batsmen (particularly first innings) and continued inconsistency make me still very much doubt the worth of his long term place. Add to that, his batting has gone to pot and he doesn't seem able to catch a cold!

Out of Asia and unless on a real bunsen, as things stand now I would be looking to go with 3 pure seamers plus Stokes and Moeen. Moeen's place may not be guaranteed in 'my team' but his record and all round worth encourage me to currently stick with him.

That may be harsh on Rashid, particularly when he's produced more than others in India. However, I don't believe the issues I perceive with Rashid are going to sufficiently go away. I'll be happy to be proven wrong. We've probably seen in India that there isn't a realistic current alternative - however, I do feel we need to be looking for and developing someone else.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 3:13 pm

Who would that someone else be though? Think that's the big question. I don't know enough about the English system to comment, but this Leach guy seems to be highly rated by the likes of Graeme Swann. But seems there are stories about offfield issues? Anyways he didn't seem to be shouting 'Pick Me' through his consistent performances. One thing is clear. Zafar Ansari isn't the answer, neither is the replacement brought in, Dawson who seems a county parttimer, he's best left alone there. Will Monty make a miraculous comeback and offer 2 or 3 years of service? Seems highly unlikely, by all accounts he's mentally finished as a player at this level and even if he rediscovers his touch with the ball at domestic level, might never be able to keep up with the demands of the game at the top level any more. Recycling a tried, tested and proven failure isn't going to work as was clearly demonstrated with Batty. Seem to remember another name mentioned here earlier? Patel. Ravi Patel is he?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 3:30 pm

I missed Eng's batting after 49-3 and now on highlights i feel India's approach wasn't correct.
They were over attacking.......in a hurry to finish the game....took Eng for granted....and that's why Eng is 180-6 instead of 180 all out.....

Ind  should have kept a balance of attacking and run defending fielders like they would have normally done
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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 4:02 pm

Msp - I honestly don't know. That's largely why I find it difficult to be definitive about Rashid's Test prospects. He might be the best cab off the rank and we should need one but do we really want to get in it if the brakes don't work?

In terms of ability and results last season, Leach ought to merit a look. One of the senior guys (Rogers or Trescothick, I think, can't remember) at Somerset, Leach's county side, was quoted as saying he lacked ''maturity'' for a Test tour this winter. I took that at the time to simply mean he lacked experience and needed to get a few more overs under his belt before making the step up. However, that now appears to have been a rather naive take on my part with suggestions being made that he has ''issues'' - don't know what that means either but doesn't sound great! Anyway, I'm not ruling him out of contention at this stage on the basis of (unsubstantiated to me) rumour.

I've seen Middlesex's slow left armer Ravi Patel once or twice in limited overs games. Quite impressed. Got turn and appeared to give thought to his deliveries as he mixed them up well. However, he was often kept out of the Championship (4 day) side in 2016 by his off spinning colleague Ollie Rayner. He's a beanpole (about 6 and a half foot) who shuffles up and drops the ball down from a great height. After many very ordinary seasons, he got some good returns and was being mentioned as a Test contender. However, he's not my idea of a Test bowler and the selectors appeared to agree as he missed the cut. If Patel can get back ahead of him in the Middlesex pecking order, he could be worth a look.

A disadvantage for both Leach and Patel in the modern way of thinking about Test cricket is that neither bat.

I know you think I've got it in unfairly for Rashid but I'll end with a question for you (and KP_f too if he wishes) if I may - how would you feel if Rashid was being chosen as India's main Test spinner?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 4:15 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Msp - I honestly don't know. That's largely why I find it difficult to be definitive about Rashid's Test prospects. He might be the best cab off the rank and we should need one but do we really want to get in it if the brakes don't work?

In terms of ability and results last season, Leach ought to merit a look. One of the senior guys (Rogers or Trescothick, I think, can't remember) at Somerset, Leach's county side, was quoted as saying he lacked ''maturity'' for a Test tour this winter. I took that at the time to simply mean he lacked experience and needed to get a few more overs under his belt before making the step up. However, that now appears to have been a rather naive take on my part with suggestions being made that he has ''issues'' - don't know what that means either but doesn't sound great! Anyway, I'm not ruling him out of contention at this stage on the basis of (unsubstantiated to me) rumour.

I've seen Middlesex's slow left armer Ravi Patel once or twice in limited overs games. Quite impressed. Got turn and appeared to give thought to his deliveries as he mixed them up well. However, he was often kept out of the Championship (4 day) side in 2016 by his off spinning colleague Ollie Rayner. He's a beanpole (about 6 and a half foot) who shuffles up and drops the ball down from a great height. After many very ordinary seasons, he got some good returns and was being mentioned as a Test contender. However, he's not my idea of a Test bowler and the selectors appeared to agree as he missed the cut. If Patel can get back ahead of him in the Middlesex pecking order, he could be worth a look.

A disadvantage for both Leach and Patel in the modern way of thinking about Test cricket is that neither bat.

I know you think I've got it in unfairly for Rashid but I'll end with a question for you (and KP_f  too if he wishes) if I may - how would you feel if Rashid was being chosen as India's main Test spinner?

Boycott made my point on the radio again today - it's harder for spinners in India, because they're facing the Indian batsmen in their favoured conditions. He noted, to my surprise admittedly, that Warne only took his wickets at an average of 43 in India, and Murali at an average of 46. Now obviously Rashid is far worse than them, but some context to his performance is needed I think. For me he's not the answer, but he's been nowhere near the issue on this tour either.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 4:38 pm

Spinners have a two-fold job to do though and Rashid can only really fulfill one. Outwith the sub-continent England will only go with one spinner in their side and that will be Ali. As I said earlier Rashid may be a fraction better at getting wickets when the pitch is offering something but he is of no use when it isn't as he has the tendency to throw in a trash ball so he cannot really be used to tie an end up and restrict scoring - that is a key part of being a spinner and he lacks it more than Ali. On top of that Ali is of more use with the bat than Rashid so I am pretty confident the question is immaterial and that England will stick with Ali over Rashid.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:01 pm

guildfordbat wrote:

I know you think I've got it in unfairly for Rashid but I'll end with a question for you (and KP_f  too if he wishes) if I may - how would you feel if Rashid was being chosen as India's main Test spinner?

--Adil Rashid will not make it to the Indian team.....most Ranji trophy sides would have a bowler or two,  of the quality of Rashid, and Ali

--But Eng can play only who they have and I have watched and remember English spinners to have visited India since 1983-84 and with the exception of Swann and Monty, there have not been any spinners who would break into the Indian team.


and the long list of ones I have seen includes--->Pat Pocock, Phil Edmonds, John Emburey, Ian Salisbury, Phil Tufnel, Min Patel, Ashley Giles, Shaun Udal, James Tredwell, Batty, Brothwick, Kerrigan, Rashid, Ali, Samit Patel, Ansari

Even Swann for Eng got a chance to grow into that role....if in India he would have not played unchallenged like he did for Eng. 

Monty is the most talented spinner from Eng I have seen.....I did not watch Underwood who Gavaskar rates very highly in his book Idols. 

--India w.r.t seamers on the 1990 tour of Eng was in a similar situation as Eng now with spinners .....Ind forced to pick 3 seamers because it was English conditions .....a debilitated Kapil trundling at 115kph, Prabhakar a swing bowler 125kph and Sanjeeev sharma 120kph specialist seamer from Delhi..and one of the BBC commentators said every county would have two or 3 seamers similar or better than these Indian trundlers......

this is the series  when Gooch murdered Indian bowling with 100s and triple hundreds....and by 3rd test India decided its better to play their best bowlers who happened to be two leggies Hirwani and Kumble ( on debut) rather than trundling seamers because it was English conditions....and managed to enforce follow-on but Eng avoided inning defeat and drew the game through a comeback to form inning of Gower.

---same with Eng, rather than lamenting over what they do not have, they should have gone flat out  in this series with their fast bowlers.....asking them to bend their back and churn out bouncers and try to get reverse bowling  full and fast.

They would not have won the series but would have taken a test win....like WI( even in decline), Aus, SA and Pak did even in lost series on the back of Kasprowich, McGrath, Klusener , Walsh  spells of fast and reverse ..... even Neil Foster won them a test in 1984 on debut with a charged spell of fast bowling.

Unfortunately Eng did not get the script right.....did not use the seamers enough and did not unlesh them to fire on all cylinders......and somehow there is a perennial concern in English camp  preserving their seamers.....rather then letting them go flat out.....win a test or two and if they break...replace them with a wider pool of seamers.

--and i said after the end of last test and especially during this test that if Eng reply on spinners to pick majority India wickets...Ind will score a lot of runs by the time their spinners have taken 7odd wickets.....one or two seamers had to bowl fast and furious reverse and bend your back dig it in and trigger a collapse.....which did not happen.


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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:09 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Msp - I honestly don't know. That's largely why I find it difficult to be definitive about Rashid's Test prospects. He might be the best cab off the rank and we should need one but do we really want to get in it if the brakes don't work?

In terms of ability and results last season, Leach ought to merit a look. One of the senior guys (Rogers or Trescothick, I think, can't remember) at Somerset, Leach's county side, was quoted as saying he lacked ''maturity'' for a Test tour this winter. I took that at the time to simply mean he lacked experience and needed to get a few more overs under his belt before making the step up. However, that now appears to have been a rather naive take on my part with suggestions being made that he has ''issues'' - don't know what that means either but doesn't sound great! Anyway, I'm not ruling him out of contention at this stage on the basis of (unsubstantiated to me) rumour.

I've seen Middlesex's slow left armer Ravi Patel once or twice in limited overs games. Quite impressed. Got turn and appeared to give thought to his deliveries as he mixed them up well. However, he was often kept out of the Championship (4 day) side in 2016 by his off spinning colleague Ollie Rayner. He's a beanpole (about 6 and a half foot) who shuffles up and drops the ball down from a great height. After many very ordinary seasons, he got some good returns and was being mentioned as a Test contender. However, he's not my idea of a Test bowler and the selectors appeared to agree as he missed the cut. If Patel can get back ahead of him in the Middlesex pecking order, he could be worth a look.

A disadvantage for both Leach and Patel in the modern way of thinking about Test cricket is that neither bat.

I know you think I've got it in unfairly for Rashid but I'll end with a question for you (and KP_f  too if he wishes) if I may - how would you feel if Rashid was being chosen as India's main Test spinner?
First, to your question at the end. I would have Rashid in my side as the led spinner if he happens to be the best spinner in the country. When Anil Kumble retired and Harbhajan Singh was set on an irreversible course of decline, he still got picked as an alternative had not emerged. They kept trying in home tests with Amit Mishra, then Pragyan Ojha. Eventually Ashwin emerged, through limited overs at first, then dislodged Harbhajan from the test side aas at that stage he was already better than Bhaji of those days. But Ashwin was only the best available spinner in the country, not the bowler of today. His first overseas tour to Australia was really not up to the mark, then regardless of home success, he got dropped after a very unremarkable performance in South Africa. India could do that at that stage as they had Ravindra Jadeja. Jadeja, even then was hard to hit away, kept the runs down even in England wherein he also played a major part in a test win, contributing more with the bat. But the management felt they needed to get their led spinner to do a bit more, and so Ashwin was brought back. As you might remember, his 2 tests in England were not bad, but not special by any means. His 2nd tour to Australia was a considerable improvement on the first, but that was more down to the very low benchmark he set there. I am sure he'll be even better in both England and Australia next up, but would have to play a more supporting role and the greater responsibilities have to be taken up by Shami and the rest of the pace bowling unit.
So if there is no Graeme Swann waiting in the wings, England will have to get on with Rashid and give him the best possible support to help him evolve. If Moeen Ali had Jadeja like qualities of keeping the runs under check, Rashid's greater wickettaking abilities could have been traded for home tests where the spinner isn't expected to run through many lineups. But Ali also goes for plenty it should be remembered.......

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:14 pm

Which of the two jobs does Ali fulfill Craig?
He had a good start to his career bit hasn't had a good series with the ball in a long time. He's been neither economical nor a wicket taking threat. He's never cut it as a top 6 batsman.
The two of them were the right selections for this tour and as the lead spinners for these games. But both have been around a fair while now, rashid is new two tests but he's a pretty mature bowler. Ali has had an extended period as the lead spinner and picked as a specialist bowler, he's had the benefit of the coaching ....the result is a bowler who is less effective than the part timer they debuted out of desperation. He really doesn't look like he's going to cut it as the go to spinner. He isnt economical anynmore than rashid is. Picking him in home tests leaves a heavy reliance on the seamers.

To be honest I don't think either is looking justified in the side back in England if the intention is seriously to develope a genuine spinner. The only thing that will get either picked is a lack of other choices.

Since south Africa England's results haven't been great at all, this is not just a case of being tired. They lost at home to Pakistan, lost a test to Bangladesh and now are being humiliated by India in the way only Australia usually manage.

(Mind there's still an outside chance of a draw if Butler proves us all wrong about him as a test bat )

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:17 pm

And adding on to KPF's point, even when Swann and Monty had all their success, Anderson, and even Steven Finn made significant contributions in England's series win in 2012. And even in 06, they had Hoggard, Flintoff and Anderson with major contributions.......
In this series, Anderson turned up for 1 test, Broad too was very effective that game. Rashid did his job and was far more effective when he had support from the seamers, but the English batting had fluffed it all much before so much so that a comeback was just not possible.


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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:30 pm

Anderson has been rubbish in the last 2 games, but the talk is as trashy as ever!
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072098.html

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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 5:36 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Which of the two jobs does Ali fulfill Craig?
He had a good start to his career bit hasn't had a good series with the ball in a long time. He's been neither economical nor a wicket taking threat. He's never cut it as a top 6 batsman.
The two of them were the right selections for this tour and as the lead spinners for these games. But both have been around a fair while now, rashid is new two tests but he's a pretty mature bowler. Ali has had an extended period as the lead spinner and picked as a specialist bowler, he's had the benefit of the coaching ....the result is a bowler who is less effective than the part timer they debuted out of desperation. He really doesn't look like he's going to cut it as the go to spinner.  He isnt economical anynmore than rashid is. Picking him in home tests leaves a heavy reliance on the seamers.

To be honest I don't think either is looking justified in the side back in England if the intention is seriously to develope  a genuine spinner.  The only thing that will get either picked is a lack of other choices.

Since south Africa England's results haven't been great at all, this is not just a case of being tired. They lost at home to Pakistan, lost a test to Bangladesh and now are being humiliated by India in the way only Australia usually manage.

(Mind there's still an outside chance of a draw if Butler proves us all wrong about him as a test bat )

As KP fan said both are not test class spinners at the highest level but they are the best available to England at present. The difference between them as spinners is pretty negligible but Rashid has that infuriating habit of throwing in a shocker of a ball once an over which he needs to iron out. Outwith the bowling then Ali offers far more with the bat than Rashid does so with little between then in bowling and Ali ahead by some way in batting you'd have to go for Ali.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Sun 11 Dec 2016, 6:36 pm

Rashid for me is a better bowler than Ali is. But neither are that good. But Ali has shown that he has a range, and in more than a couple of years with the test side and a considerable number of test matches, he has not managed to make the step up. Rashid has improved as a bowler than what he was last year. And he's a greater wickettaking threat. With Stokes in there, England will have 4 seamers who can do the job particularly in the first innings even if Rashid doesn't come to the party. Rashid is far more likely to be a factor in the 2nd innings than Ali is. As such, they should give Rashid a good run in the side even in home conditions and try and provide him with some good support.
If Bairstow is playing as a pure batsman and Buttler taking the gloves, and if Hameed and Jennings continue to develop, then Ali might have to sit out. Else, he can play as the 5th batsman in the side and play alongside Rashid.
Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler WK
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
Or
Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Ali
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 5:07 am

And indeed , it didn't take long ! Congratulations to India clap

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 7:43 am

msp83 wrote:Rashid for me is a better bowler than Ali is. But neither are that good. But Ali has shown that he has a range, and in more than a couple of years with the test side and a considerable number of test matches, he has not managed to make the step up. Rashid has improved as a bowler than what he was last year. And he's a greater wickettaking threat. With Stokes in there, England will have 4 seamers who can do the job particularly in the first innings even if Rashid doesn't come to the party. Rashid is far more likely to be a factor in the 2nd innings than Ali is. As such, they should give Rashid a good run in the side even in home conditions and try and provide him with some good support.
If Bairstow is playing as a pure batsman and Buttler taking the gloves, and if Hameed and Jennings continue to develop, then Ali might have to sit out. Else, he can play as the 5th batsman in the side and play alongside Rashid.
Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler WK
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
Or
Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Ali
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson.

A fair point about Moeen apparently not improving with the ball lately (his figures were probably better than many thought they should have been - something that may now apply to Rashid ? But they've been slipping). I think on the events of this tour Rashid has kept alive his chances ...but I will still be surprised if he were to oust Moeen at home.
Looking at that lineup you suggest I note that the depth of batting which has sustained England despite serious holes in the top order doesn't look quite as solid without Moeen at eight. Might work still , if the new bats measure up...but judging by the way the later batting has folded up on this tour that can't be taken for granted. ( I do think Woakes for one would bat better in home conditions ; not sure that Rashid can be counted on for many runs against strong bowling attacks.)
Opinions will be divided ; I would still need to be convinced that Rashid really does offer a wicket taking threat , in English conditions , sufficient to outweigh Moeen's all round contributions. Despite his 22 wickets , I don't think he has taken enough while the game was still "live" to suggest that he does - and I am aware that may not be entirely fair to him as the Indian bats are very good at playing spin. Mind you the same factor needs to be considered when assessing Moeen , no ?

It would be a pity in a way if Rashid were to disappear , just as he has shown improvement , purely because England aren't playing in locations that call for extra spinners. But it would also be rough on Moeen , who has been shunted up and down the batting order to plug gaps , if he were to be discarded out of hand...there really isn't a perfect solution. I think the evidence of this series is enough to kill any thoughts that a two spinner policy might be sensible for England outside of Asia. That would only make sense if both candidates were rather more effective than they are at the moment.

Perhaps we can have a poll on here before the summer Tests Smile

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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 7:56 am

In the end the end came quite fast....from 180-4 Eng went down to 195 a.o Ashwin got all the last 6 wickets...
Lost by an innings after having scored 400 runs in the first inning and looking like at times to get a lead in the first innings.....should lead to hurt and introspection  Shocked

Eng did not try to build inning and fight it out with a blend of patience and occasional counter attack.........whatever runs came was in  a "go-down-blazing" approach of Bairstow and Root.....which wasn't gonna last longer than it did for them........and 7  English batters did not get into double figures either....is a confirmation of the folly of such an apporach in a test match on a difficult but not impossible-minefield pitch.

India has some minor problems to look at and fix

1) Do they give Nair another game......or try Pandey / Jadhav( my preference)  
Nair did not look a part and struggled to pick Rashid.....could be nerves
I think if Rahane is not recovered Nair will be retained in the 11 for one more test.

2) If Shami is not fit.....either of Ishant or Shardul should play as both are faster in the air and capable of reversing the ball much more than Bhuvi

3) Talk to and get Rahul to focus.....he needs to be told to bat a 100 deliveries as his objective.

England's problem is bigger but simpler to resolve....

-- ask your fast bowlers to go flat out ...bend their back and ball fast in the air to try and get reverse and dig it in...bowl a lot of short stuff.....get it up in the cage area
there is no more test matches for Eng for atleast 6 months...give it all...there is still pride to play for a test match win in adverse conditions would still be an achievement even thought the series is gone..

what I suspect  they may do instead....bring another part time spinner in place of Jake Ball in the next game


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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:02 am

Alfie Moeen figures have been woeful for 18 months plus now. His career figures are similar to those of Rashids but if you take the games they have played together his average is more than 10 worse. If we are describing Rashid as not fit for purpose than Moeen is awful. Roots wickets come at less than his have done over the past 6 series. Moeens economy is no beyter either. He's an experienced bowler now so no more learning excuses ....he's just not good enough.
If he does get dropped it wouldn't be out of hand, it would be because of an extended poor run of form with the ball.
With the bat, which should be his strong suit he has been messed about yes. And he has had some good scores on the last year, his promotion back uo at first looked like an obvious step based on the weight of runs he was making at 8/9. His reputation was built on home pitches, but he was rubbish there over the summer. Rashid has a good first class record on those pitches, and Leach was excellent on them this summer.
But he's continued to struggle for the most part and looks as out of depth as others we have had at 4 recently. He's still averaging in the low 30s, indeed less than that over the winter despite getting to bat on some roads.
Quite simply he looks like he will never be good enough to play as a first choice spinner, and he's struggling with the bat enough to make it hard to pick him as a batsman and luxury spin option. If he were able to offer some control to act as a foil for an attacking spinner then great, but he can't bowl tight.

All in if he does continue to get picked after this tour I'd see it as more an indictment on how bad the other alternatives are than a ringing endorsement of him. Whilst being aware of Rashids limitations and being a Leach sceptic I really don't see him as secure, especially if England are looking to the future and giving people a chance to develope in the test arena rather than stagnating in the lions and county game.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:05 am

KPF yeah I suspect we may see a third spinner back again, although that may be down to a handily timed injury to Anderson to make a place rather than ball.
England have been very good at making selection changes one game after they should have done recently. Some would say reactive rather than proactive.
I don't see it making much odds anyway. Woakes tried his best to bowl fast and just leaked runs.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:05 am

alfie wrote:
msp83 wrote:Rashid for me is a better bowler than Ali is. But neither are that good. But Ali has shown that he has a range, and in more than a couple of years with the test side and a considerable number of test matches, he has not managed to make the step up. Rashid has improved as a bowler than what he was last year. And he's a greater wickettaking threat. With Stokes in there, England will have 4 seamers who can do the job particularly in the first innings even if Rashid doesn't come to the party. Rashid is far more likely to be a factor in the 2nd innings than Ali is. As such, they should give Rashid a good run in the side even in home conditions and try and provide him with some good support.
If Bairstow is playing as a pure batsman and Buttler taking the gloves, and if Hameed and Jennings continue to develop, then Ali might have to sit out. Else, he can play as the 5th batsman in the side and play alongside Rashid.
Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler WK
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
Or
Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Ali
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson.

A fair point about Moeen apparently not improving with the ball lately (his figures were probably better than many thought they should have been - something that may now apply to Rashid ? But they've been slipping).  I think on the events of this tour Rashid has kept alive his chances ...but I will still be surprised if he were to oust Moeen at home.
Looking at that lineup you suggest I note that the depth of batting which has sustained England despite serious holes in the top order doesn't look quite as solid without Moeen at eight.  Might work still , if the new bats measure up...but judging by the way the later batting has folded up on this tour that can't be taken for granted. ( I do think Woakes for one would bat better in home conditions ; not sure that Rashid can be counted on for many runs against strong bowling attacks.)
Opinions will be divided ; I would still need to be convinced that Rashid really does offer a wicket taking threat , in English conditions , sufficient to outweigh Moeen's all round contributions.  Despite his 22 wickets , I don't think he has taken enough while the game was still "live" to suggest that he does  - and I am aware that may not be entirely fair to him as the Indian bats are very good at playing spin. Mind you the same factor needs to be considered when assessing Moeen , no ?

It would be a pity in a way if Rashid were to disappear , just as he has shown improvement , purely because England aren't playing in locations that call for extra spinners.  But it would also be rough on Moeen , who has been shunted up and down the batting order to plug gaps , if he were to be discarded out of hand...there really isn't a perfect solution.  I think the evidence of this series is enough to kill any thoughts that a two spinner policy might be sensible for England outside of Asia. That would only make sense if both candidates were rather more effective than they are at the moment.

Perhaps we can have a poll on here before the summer Tests Smile

The only way we'll find out if Rashid is a threat in English conditions is if he gets a go! I think Moeen will play, but there really isn't much between them at the moment imo. Moeen's batting isn't really that great
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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:17 am

Some questioning of Cooks future as captain in the press today. I'd be surprised if he's hung out to dry for this, a lot of the issues with side selection seem to have come from the wrong players being picked for the squad in the first place which isn't really his fault.
There has been plenty of criticism of him and the way he's used bowlers, maybe he's clashing a bit with bayliss over the side selection.
Although his form hasn't been great I don't see his place as under threat at a time when England are still struggling to find 5 selectable batsmen. So there's no prospect of him being dropped in the short to medium term.
More it seems a " we ought tof do something radical " idea stemming from a really poor run since south Africa for the test team.

The only candidate to take over would be Root, which would reignite the debate over split captaincy and Morgan in limited overs games.

Personally I don't see much in this at all, but Bayliss has shown himself to be pretty ruthless.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:34 am

Gooseberry wrote:Some questioning of Cooks future as captain in the press today. I'd be surprised if he's hung out to dry for this, a lot of the issues with side selection seem to have come from the wrong players being picked for the squad in the first place which isn't really his fault.
There has been plenty of criticism of him and the way he's used bowlers, maybe he's clashing a bit with bayliss over the side selection.
Although his form hasn't been great I don't see his place as under threat at a time when England are still struggling to find 5 selectable batsmen. So there's no prospect of him being dropped in the short to medium term.
More it seems a " we ought tof do something radical " idea stemming from a really poor run since south Africa for the test team.

The only candidate to take over would be Root, which would reignite the debate over split captaincy and Morgan in limited overs games.

Personally I don't see much in this at all, but Bayliss has shown himself to be pretty ruthless.

No question of his place in the side, but I think it's fair to ask the question about the captaincy. Especially because I think the strain of being captain could potentially effect his career length, and obviously Cook the batsman is far far more important to the team than Cook the captain.

If we can get an extra two/three years out of him by taking away the captaincy I'd do it in a heartbeat
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Re: Eng in India

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