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Eng in India

Post by alfie on Thu 08 Dec 2016, 9:44 am

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway Smile

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:40 am

Bayliss has now lost 11 out of 21 Tests in charge - quite poor actually, and that does need looking at along with the captaincy as the Test side has become really inconsistent and had some pretty poor results, including not managing to beat Pakistan at home (who just got trounced in NZ) and a pretty poor showing Bangladesh

Re Moeen - I think he'll start in the summer mainly as he offers a better package with his batting and fielding than Rashid and on the basis he won't really be needed to bowl much with England having 4 seamers

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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:50 am

Captaincy at the top most level in cricket is very energy sapping....requires much more than 100% every series and it's humanly not possible to sustain this level of intensity season after season for  many seasons.....

We saw that in Graeme Smith
we saw Dhoni flatten out completely after the world cup win....and Ganguly also after 4 or 5 years...
Same with Ponting...he tapered after a while..
(Steve Waugh, Clive Lloyd and Cronje the other successful captains were exceptions though who could sustain their intensities for much longer)


and so Cook seems to be reaching( or already reached) his expiry date as a captain...he should give it up.....and play as a specialist opener, continue his march towards being one of the most successful test batsmen ever... and be a mentor to the test team.

Once Root does become the captain...two captain theory for different format may not be sustainable
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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 8:55 am

Yeah and how quickly will England burn out their best all formats batsman in doing that ?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 9:05 am

Its hard to see another option than Root if/when Cook gives it up. Which as Gooseberry forewarns might not be a good idea. Saying that I can only really come up with Broad as an alternative, and bowler captains aren't usually very good!

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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 9:09 am

Gooseberry wrote:Yeah and how quickly will England burn out their best all formats batsman in doing that ?

If Root gives a good 4 to 5 years as a captain.....he would have done his part and have a name in history.
5 years of quality is better than 10 years of mediocrity.

India has done the same with Kohli whose profile is same as Roots'

and Kohli may also burn out after 4 more years but by then he would have given India 4 years at the top.....
and if our system is good....then Rahane or Rahul or Rohit may be ready to take over by then

If the English system is good Haseeb or Keaton or Stokes someone else may be ready in 5 years
after all Root made his debut only 4 or 5 years back in India.

Give it the best for 4 to 5 years is better than dragging with medicority for 10 years is my view
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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 9:30 am

Cook anyways hasn't been great with tactics on field. Under his leadership England have had some notable success, but have had some pretty horrendous humiliations too. Now the pressure is felt on his batting too. The team is in need of some energy that Cook isn't providing, its time to send him back to the ranks where he can focus on his batting. Let Root take over in all formats, with him moving down to 4 with Cook, Hameed and Jennings taking up the top 3 positions.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:02 am

It would be a big call, and a bit harsh on Morgan. If the captaincy change does happen its more likely Root would just take the Tests for now ..with a long term view to taking over from Morgan as well who for now is doing a great job and justifying a place in the sides with his batting.

England have been happy with the split captaincy and separated squads, its worked for them especially with the ridiculous schedules.

If we are talking burnout then Cook is the one who will get the new year off, whereas Root will be flying back out for a few more weeks to play a load of limited overs games...and be far busier over the summer.

Hussains OP ( I cant believe he would write for the Mail but it just goes to show how these ex cricketers really will do anything for money) today focuses much more on the tour (and in game) selections and policy than Cooks failings to use the players he was given.

Batty, Dawson, Balance, Ansari and Duckett were not Cooks mistakes. How much say he had in 3 spinners for the previous test when they should've had 2 and 2 for this when they could've had 3 (or an extra non existent batsman from the squad which contained players they wouldn't select in any circumstance) I'm not sure....but he certainly isn't the strongest only voice in team selection.

I don't think scapegoating him for this is fair. I do accept that his position should be considered under threat though.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:11 am

As far as the spinner situation goes I don't think anyone can justify picking Ali instead of Rashid which isn't to say I'd jettison him altogether. Send him back to county cricket to concentrate on his batting and I believe there's a place for him batting at 6 being nothing more than a part time bowler.

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Ali
Stokes
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson

I don't see Buttler as an option as Ali is the better batsmen.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:40 am

Rather doubt Cook will be pushed out...he has some credit (Ashes , SA and previous Indian tour wins) and I suspect it isn't just Gooseberry who is concerned about burdening Root prematurely : but he may possibly jump. His body language after the Third Test was a bit resigned , I thought ; though he certainly attacked this last match with intent the disappointment of losing heavily after a good start here won't have helped.
I'm sure he will be thinking about passing on the baton. But the break he has coming up shortly might be enough to recharge the batteries. Bayliss seems to want him to continue for a while yet , and I'm not sure Root is overkeen to take over right now.
Sometimes a change can give a struggling team a kick along ; but I'd argue it would be a mistake to overreact to this loss. India is tough at home - especially for a side light on for spin bowling. And although the team is still building at the moment - particularly in top order batting - results haven't been bad . If they fill those spots (and one good thing to come from this tour is the taste of promise from both Hameed and Jennings) then it may be that Root eventually gets to take over a much more settled and solid unit.
Next Tests are a fair while off. No rush to decide.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:57 am

Devils advovate Alfie...it's not just India, but also Bangladesh Pakistan and UAE tour as well ... the SA win is the exception in what's been a poor run. Sright Lanka at home was a should win so not much credit for that.

Aside from that I agree. His reaction to the questions about his future suggested he may feel there's a conversation to be had and that he doesn't feel 100% secure. You'd expect him to be nudged into quitting rather than publicly sacked though if it did happen.

And yes I can't anything happening until late after the limited over series and a decompression period ahead of the new season.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 11:20 am

Gooseberry wrote:Devils advovate Alfie...it's not just India, but also Bangladesh Pakistan and UAE tour as well ... the SA win is the exception in what's been a poor run. Sright Lanka at home was a should win so not much credit for that.

Aside from that I agree. His reaction to the questions about his future suggested he may feel there's a conversation to be had and that he doesn't feel 100% secure. You'd expect him to be nudged into quitting rather than publicly sacked though if it did happen.  

And yes I can't anything happening until late after the limited over series and a decompression period ahead of the new season.

I'd say only the Pakistan home draw was really disappointing : the other three have one thing in common , don't they ?  Asian spinning conditions...and England's lack of resources in that area , exacerbated by selector's attempts to cover weaknesses by fitting square pegs in round holes (Moeen opening in UAE , six bowler strategy which has generally served only to weaken the batting)
I didn't say the results were fantastic - just not bad ; and I'd stand by that.  To be quite honest I don't think the captaincy is a huge factor in them either - I think Cook has become a decent , though certainly not outstanding , captain ; but the results are by and large down to good team efforts - or otherwise - with some very fine individual performances covering for structural weaknesses in the team.
A bit like Australia : who have gone from great confidence a year ago to abject despair over half a dozen games ...and are already heading back to ostentatious strutting after one win and a couple of ODIs Smile : England at the moment are a middle ranking team who might be anywhere from 2 to 5 in a years time.  (India are a fair number one right now - and will stay so at least until they have to tour a couple of places they don't fancy so much...will be very interesting to see how they fare given they really do look to have a solid core of maybe eight or nine players plus some competent reserves , and are showing much greater resilience than some previous sides)
Am rather looking forward to the northern summer as some new players are going to make their mark - or not. I think Bayliss would prefer to keep the leadership group intact while those spots get settled...

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 11:26 am

Cook has said that Root is ready to captain. Writing on the wall?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 11:31 am

Meanwhile, the big-mouth clown as usual, wants to dish it out and goes crying when he gets some back!! And the skipper, who encourages him threatening opposition players with physical assaults because such obnoxious behavior brings the best out of him, is disappointed that the opposition players are not willing to tolerate the nonsense.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072197.html

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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 11:48 am

shami and Saha remain unfit for Chennai test.

there is likely to be some rain in chennai
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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 11:52 am

msp83 wrote:Meanwhile, the big-mouth clown as usual, wants to dish it out and goes crying when he gets some back!! And the skipper, who encourages him threatening opposition players with physical assaults because such obnoxious behavior brings the best out of him, is disappointed that the opposition players are not willing to tolerate the nonsense.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072197.html

Oh for heavens sake...what a lot of rubbish.   The only controversial thing in the Anderson interview was the headline tagged onto it (not down to Anderson) Lots of people made the point that Anderson owned Kohli in England...he simply voiced the belief that the main reason the boot is on the other foot now is the change in conditions : whats wrong with that ?  He also went on to say how well Kohli had played , so hardly "disrespectful" ....and a lot of people jump all over the Internet to complain picard

Kohli wasn't bothered.  If anyone has stepped out of line here it's Ashwin but its no big deal and I don't hear Anderson or Cook or anyone actually complaining.
Indian players are not a bunch of shrinking violets : ever since Ganguly they've given as good as they get (and I'm fine with that) but I do get tired of any "incident" being painted as all Anderson's fault (or Stokes , as the case may be.
Storm in teacup.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 11:53 am

msp83 wrote:Meanwhile, the big-mouth clown as usual, wants to dish it out and goes crying when he gets some back!! And the skipper, who encourages him threatening opposition players with physical assaults because such obnoxious behavior brings the best out of him, is disappointed that the opposition players are not willing to tolerate the nonsense.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072197.html

Don't believe everything you read in the press. The original comments were blown up out of proportion to create a clickbait headline and article, as is this, as were Parthiv's comments etc.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:01 pm

VTR wrote:
msp83 wrote:Meanwhile, the big-mouth clown as usual, wants to dish it out and goes crying when he gets some back!! And the skipper, who encourages him threatening opposition players with physical assaults because such obnoxious behavior brings the best out of him, is disappointed that the opposition players are not willing to tolerate the nonsense.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072197.html

Don't believe everything you read in the press. The original comments were blown up out of proportion to create a clickbait headline and article, as is this, as were Parthiv's comments etc.

Please don't bring common sense to msp's campaign that England players are all outspoken obnoxious idiots compared to their angelic Indian counterparts
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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:07 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:
msp83 wrote:Meanwhile, the big-mouth clown as usual, wants to dish it out and goes crying when he gets some back!! And the skipper, who encourages him threatening opposition players with physical assaults because such obnoxious behavior brings the best out of him, is disappointed that the opposition players are not willing to tolerate the nonsense.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072197.html

Don't believe everything you read in the press. The original comments were blown up out of proportion to create a clickbait headline and article, as is this, as were Parthiv's comments etc.

Please don't bring common sense to msp's campaign that England players are all outspoken obnoxious idiots compared to their angelic Indian counterparts

Ha - he's a balanced poster normally, but show him an article of Jimmy Anderson or Ben Stokes being misquoted by a cheap hack and the guy will explode!

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:14 pm

msp83 wrote:Cook has said that Root is ready to captain. Writing on the wall?

Yeah Id not thought much of the speculation till Id seen that interview. It does look like Cooks considering this off his own back and had planned to before the tour.

Apparently he had prearranged a discussion with Strauss about the future, so it seems the job may have been getting to him already ....or that Strauss doesn't rate him ( unlikely given how close they are)

I doubt the issues with selection of the squad for this tour and games will have helped his mood either.

Lets wait and see though.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:19 pm

VTR wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:
msp83 wrote:Meanwhile, the big-mouth clown as usual, wants to dish it out and goes crying when he gets some back!! And the skipper, who encourages him threatening opposition players with physical assaults because such obnoxious behavior brings the best out of him, is disappointed that the opposition players are not willing to tolerate the nonsense.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072197.html

Don't believe everything you read in the press. The original comments were blown up out of proportion to create a clickbait headline and article, as is this, as were Parthiv's comments etc.

Please don't bring common sense to msp's campaign that England players are all outspoken obnoxious idiots compared to their angelic Indian counterparts

Ha - he's a balanced poster normally, but show him an article of Jimmy Anderson or Ben Stokes being misquoted by a cheap hack and the guy will explode!

Blame Stuart Broad for cleaning up his act, the faux rage has to go somewhere.

In the case of Stokes though ... he is employed and encouraged to troll the opposition by Bayliss. His "aggression" is actively encouraged and there is a policy to get him in the game as much as possible to remind the opposition hes there. Inevitably that means he gets drawn into spats not all of his own making, but ultimately it does come down to trying to wind the opposition up which is very Australian in mentality.

Its funny how everyone is against this stuff till its their own players doing it.


In this case though yes ...made up non story. Nothing in this at all. Anderson does seem to be forgetting that he was more effective on flatter pitches last time he was out here though.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:24 pm

Indian players are not angelic, neither do I expect them to be so! As for young Stokes, its his age, like a younger Kohli...... But Anderson is a different case altogether. The biggest sore loser and the most obnoxious rowdy playing the game at the top level at present. Whether that is the opposition players or the umpires, the guy has no respect whatsoever.
As for what he said yesterday regarding Kohli, well I felt that was grudging respect, and the media made it a lot more than what it actually was. However, Anderson lacked a sense of context, it would at least might have had a chance of bothering Kohli had England been winning or had the Indian skipper been in a bit of a rough patch with the bat. And if the loudmouth had taken a wicket or 2 or ever looked like doing so in the last 2 games, it would have sounded better! Ashwin told him that he said the things he did yesterday because he is a sore loser that he clearly is, and imagine, poor old Virat had to play the peacemaker!!
My problem though is with Cook, it was he who braught it back up and talked about disappointment and all that garbage. This is a thing I find only with the England players. They would object to opposition way of celebrating a wicket, then go out on twitter or to the press and try claim the high moral ground. If you want to act nasty to opposition players on the field, be prepared to get some back, and then have the sense to leave it at the ground. Supporters might carry things back a bit, but if players start doing so, they better behave themselves on field before all this nonsense about the moral highground.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:31 pm

Anderson was quite correct though but it works both ways, Kohli like everyone else gets exposed in English conditions just like the English batsmen get exposed in the sub continent, he's not alone it happens to the Aussies too.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:54 pm

msp83 wrote:Cook has said that Root is ready to captain. Writing on the wall?

Yes, I'm inclined to think so. If that wasn't the case, it seems odd for Cook to have gone so far with what he did say.

If nothing else, Cook seems to have a fair bit of self doubt. Even allowing for him being a quieter and more introverted type than many other past and current captains, that can't be good for him or his team.

Other than the posts here, I haven't followed the Anderson thing. Seems the usual sort of ''nothing much'' but turned up to maximum volume by some who ought to know better.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 3:01 pm

An interesting peek into the evolution of Kohli the batsman, captain and person.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072172.html

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Re: Eng in India

Post by kingraf on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 3:21 pm

you don't lose a series 3-0 because of your captain. come on. Lets get real
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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 3:59 pm

kingraf wrote:you don't lose a series 3-0 because of your captain. come on. Lets get real

I don't think anybody has said that?

But when he's actively stating in the press that Root could do it and pondering over his position himself, it hardly portrays the image of a strong captain, thus the debate.

For me, if it helps to prolong his career as a batsman, take it away from him. Who knows Root could thrive in the role ala Kohli, or he could flop ala KP
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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 5:05 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
kingraf wrote:you don't lose a series 3-0 because of your captain. come on. Lets get real

I don't think anybody has said that?

But when he's actively stating in the press that Root could do it and pondering over his position himself, it hardly portrays the image of a strong captain, thus the debate.

For me, if it helps to prolong his career as a batsman, take it away from him. Who knows Root could thrive in the role ala Kohli, or he could flop ala KP

Oh no! I can't find my tin hat! Smile

Actually very much with you, Olly, on your reply to Raf.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 5:14 pm

England have had a very mixed record under Cook. After the last Ashes, they had success in South Africa, but then ranged from average to horrendous otherwise. And Cook's own form has been a bit up and down. He hasn't been the same force in Asian conditions that he ones was. We know he does get exposed in swing conditions every now and then, but his Asian record was something else. But now he's playing some UnCook like stuff, jumping down the track to take on the spinner and getting stumped and all that. Think there is a bit too much in his mind at this stage, and considering he was never that good with tactics, and that the record under has not been exceptional, think it is time to move on.
When the transformation from Mahendra Singh Dhoni to Virat Kohli happened, I had similar apprehensions. That he's the team's best batsman, that he had lots of batting responsibilities across formats and so on. But apart from some frivolous selection calls from which he learned rather quickly most of the times, he has done a very fine job. Not necessary that Root would go and do very much the same. But that can only be known when he's given the responsibilities. He seems to be made of the right stuff.......

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 5:42 pm

Raf there's still time for us to lose 4-0.

But this doesn't seem to be a case of cook being pushed, more him feeling ready to move on ...or sick of it. Quite possibly the issues with selections put of his control have contributed to this.

There may also be an element of Strauss-Kahn having a desire to reunite the captaincy across all formats, but that's largely speculation.

Map is right that cooks record hasn't been great and there's always been doubters regarding his captaincy. It looks to be affecting his own cricket now as well which could be a factor.
I don't think either is enough to get him sacked, but possibly enough to make him think it's not worth the hassle.

We will see what comes out in the wash in a couple of months at least it will give the press something to talk about other than who England's fifth choice spinner should be.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by wisden on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 7:09 pm

Cook said a while ago that he is looking forward to the day, where he gets to just open the batting and stand at first slip....without the captaincy and just offering advice where it's needed/wanted...think its time for that to happen...Joe Root is more than ready to lead the side forward

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Dec 2016, 7:41 pm

Ha well de Villiers has beaten him to it!

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Re: Eng in India

Post by ChequeredJersey on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:58 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:As far as the spinner situation goes I don't think anyone can justify picking Ali instead of Rashid which isn't to say I'd jettison him altogether. Send him back to county cricket to concentrate on his batting and I believe there's a place for him batting at 6 being nothing more than a part time bowler.

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Ali
Stokes
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson

I don't see Buttler as an option as Ali is the better batsmen.

Interestingly, despite being criticised for his Test average after an awful run when he was last dropped, Buttler's test average is only 0.5 below Ali's, so right now if Ali is a better batsman I'm not sure he's showing it. He's also definitely batted better here in India, despite not having classical technique, apparently being a worse player of spin, having to bat at 7 and playing no first class cricket for a year...
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Re: Eng in India

Post by king_carlos on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 4:31 am

The only way I can see Moeen keeping a regular place as a batsmen is if Bairstow remains keeper and batting at 7.

I can't see Bayliss asking Bairstow to both bat in the top 5 and keep, it will burn him out. If he's in the top 5 it will be as a specialist batsman. Buttler might get the test gloves back in that situation at least short term, Bayliss rates him in all formats. I'd prefer a better keeper - Foakes is favourite there.

I also can't see Stokes regularly batting above 6 when his bowling is so important to the side. Plus his batting is better suited to lower down the order.

1.Cook
2.Hameed
3.Jennings
4.Root
5.Moeen
6.Stokes
7.Bairstow (wk)
8.Rashid
9.Woakes/Wood/Ball
10.Broad
11.Anderson

Or

1.Cook
2.Hameed
3.Jennings
4.Root
5.Bairstow
6.Stokes
7.Buttler/Foakes (wk)
8.Moeen/Rashid
9.Woakes/Wood/Ball
10.Broad
11.Anderson

I reckon one of those two XIs will be the make-up of the side for start of the summer.

As for the skipper, Cook finally has a decent break from Test duty after the 5th test to ponder that. I could see him handing it over. Following the break, a summer in home conditions to finish on a high might appeal to him though.

Alternative 3 (which I don't think will be taken) could be keeping Bairstow at 7 and finding another middle order batsman. Joe Clarke is a hell of a young player.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:29 am

This is what the England coach had to say on the captaincy debates.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/content/story/1072224.html

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:31 am

If Cook is thinking of moving on, he should do it soon. He can add a few wins for sure against the West Indies in the summer and finish with a win. However, if Root has to take the side to Australia, then he should be given time, to mold himself into the role, and to mold his side. And he can ease into the job v the West Indies.......

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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 9:52 am

Any job in this world requires full commitment and when someone in a job starts talking up his replacement insisting he is up to the job it says a lot. It tells me his heart is no longer in the job and neither is the desire to do it. For the good of the team, for his own peace of mind and form Alistair Cook should stand aside after this tour.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 10:15 am

His batting has started to take a hit recently too, the top order has been a problem for years but we could usually rely on Cook to hold it together before the more attacking players press on. I'm not sure if he's been pressured into scoring more freely but he's been getting out in very un-Cook like ways recently.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:05 am

I was quite surprised - Cook's average as captain is almost the same as his average not captaining. Also, his series averages have been fairly decent of late: 71 vs Sri Lanka, 60 vs Pakistan, 22 vs Bangladesh (ok, that's not good but was in a low scoring series), 39 so far this series

Better than I thought, with a chance to average above 40 in this series, which certainly isn't horrendous

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Re: Eng in India

Post by James100 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:10 am

VTR wrote:I was quite surprised - Cook's average as captain is almost the same as his average not captaining. Also, his series averages have been fairly decent of late: 71 vs Sri Lanka, 60 vs Pakistan, 22 vs Bangladesh (ok, that's not good but was in a low scoring series), 39 so far this series

Better than I thought, with a chance to average above 40 in this series, which certainly isn't horrendous

I don't know about the stats, but it seems like despite posting good averages, Cook has scored much fewer hundred over the last couple of years—though maybe more fifties. it's not a bad problem to have for one batter, but with root in the same boat it does mean that neither of our two best batsmen are playing enough "match-defining" knocks.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:32 am

I agree with that - though I think we maybe expect too much after those ridiculous series away to India before and The Ashes 2010/11

It's probably the failings of others that are making it more of an issue as we basically need him to make a hundred every time he gets in, whereas in the past Strauss, Bell, KP etc had purple patches where they churned out a lot of big scores


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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 11:43 am

James100 wrote:
VTR wrote:I was quite surprised - Cook's average as captain is almost the same as his average not captaining. Also, his series averages have been fairly decent of late: 71 vs Sri Lanka, 60 vs Pakistan, 22 vs Bangladesh (ok, that's not good but was in a low scoring series), 39 so far this series

Better than I thought, with a chance to average above 40 in this series, which certainly isn't horrendous

I don't know about the stats, but it seems like despite posting good averages, Cook has scored much fewer hundred over the last couple of years—though maybe more fifties. it's not a bad problem to have for one batter, but with root in the same boat it does mean that neither of our two best batsmen are playing enough "match-defining" knocks.

Hi James - as one of the Surrey mafia, I'm sure you'll appreciate this quote which supports your post:
''Centuries win you matches. Fifties don't.'' - Alec Stewart.

Stewie was talking about Surrey's top order and therefore generalising a bit but it's normally more than a fair point.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:34 pm

Ive been reading too many pieces by "experts" and been led down this mantra that hes struggled with the bat too. Its actually a pretty good year all in ( Bangladesh aside).

Hes unfairly taken a hammering for not scoring big centuries on this tour.

He has increasingly though being giving the air of a man whos deflated and had enough.


How many tests did Stewart win? Less than he scored centuries I bet.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:10 pm

I find Stewart's comment pretty meaningless, as it assumes that once a batsman makes 50 then it's his own failing that he doesn't then get a hundred, which is nonsense

50's are pretty valuable - if you are an opener like Cook that probably means you've been in for 20-30 overs so you've seen off the new ball and probably tired the opening bowlers out. It sets a nice platform for the team. Or what about the number 8 coming in and thrashing a quick 50 like Moeen did on occasion in the 2015 Ashes - those sort of innings aren't exactly meaningless

Also, for the record - Alec Stewart, 15 hundred and 45 fifties in Tests - not one of the best conversion rates Smile

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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 1:58 pm

I don't think it's fair to raise finger's at Cook as a batsman.....he has thrived inspite of the pressures of captaincy.....

As a person he is a mild guy......who was chosen as a captain by ECB because they wanted a well spoken mild mannered guy who could align with ECB ( read listen to ECB) and flexible enough to be managed ( read manipulated) by the then coach, cum director, cum non-playing captain cum god called Flower.

He did well as a batsman and delivered reasonable results as a captain.....but what was then deemed qualification criteria is now his limitation as a captain.....so I don't think it's fair to raise a finger at his captaincy either

He takes the team that selectors and that man Flower from the A/ Lions squad still pushes at him.....without too much complain...
He tries to accommodate these square pegs in the round holes....takes  the criticism  on the chin....wins a reasonable number of games and has maintained exactly the same average as an opening batsman in 58 tests as a captain as he did in 81 games before......and that's not a mean feat...for history tells us...over a period as long as 50 odd tests or more.....most captains drop a level or two or 3 as a batsman.....

Cook is a package...delivering exactly what he was picked for .....

Now if they  want an aggressive, dynamic captain who will be more demanding of the team he wants as a squad or as in playing 11...and interms of the style of cricket to be played...then acknowledge that the goal-post has shifted and bring in Root.....

But bear in mind that in bold is what they got in KP and couldn't digest it and so they brought Strauss and Cook types....

also bear in mind that monkey on the back called Flower.,...who still decides from the Lions channel who is fit to play for Eng and when and keeps pushing his wards on to the national side and the national captain that the new captain would have to deal with and may not as meekly accept as Cook does.

Keep him or not keep him.....Cook deserves only applauds....and very little criticism......he delivered what was asked for without letting his batting average drop
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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 2:49 pm

When Stewart spoke, he was not slating his Surrey batsmen for scoring fifties but expressing frustration that they weren't going on to convert a promising position into a match winning one. I felt at the time that was an entirely reasonable view and still do. My own conversion rate of fifties to hundreds is far worse than Stewart's but I don't see that should prevent me holding the same opinion.

Anyway, see if you like this quote and the speaker more -
''We talk about trying to make daddy hundreds ... The daddy phrase is from [then England batting coach] Goochie, he doesn't really count anything under 150.'' - Alastair Cook in 2011.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 4:58 pm

So why did he keep insisting that Bopara was great then?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 5:57 pm

Gooseberry wrote:So why did he keep insisting that Bopara was great then?

Goose - who are you talking about? I would guess Gooch. If so, no idea. Never heard Stewart big up Bopara.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by JDizzle on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 6:15 pm

king_carlos wrote:The only way I can see Moeen keeping a regular place as a batsmen is if Bairstow remains keeper and batting at 7.

I can't see Bayliss asking Bairstow to both bat in the top 5 and keep, it will burn him out. If he's in the top 5 it will be as a specialist batsman. Buttler might get the test gloves back in that situation at least short term, Bayliss rates him in all formats. I'd prefer a better keeper - Foakes is favourite there.

I also can't see Stokes regularly batting above 6 when his bowling is so important to the side. Plus his batting is better suited to lower down the order.

1.Cook
2.Hameed
3.Jennings
4.Root
5.Moeen
6.Stokes
7.Bairstow (wk)
8.Rashid
9.Woakes/Wood/Ball
10.Broad
11.Anderson

Or

1.Cook
2.Hameed
3.Jennings
4.Root
5.Bairstow
6.Stokes
7.Buttler/Foakes (wk)
8.Moeen/Rashid
9.Woakes/Wood/Ball
10.Broad
11.Anderson


I reckon one of those two XIs will be the make-up of the side for start of the summer.

As for the skipper, Cook finally has a decent break from Test duty after the 5th test to ponder that. I could see him handing it over. Following the break, a summer in home conditions to finish on a high might appeal to him though.

Alternative 3 (which I don't think will be taken) could be keeping Bairstow at 7 and finding another middle order batsman. Joe Clarke is a hell of a young player.

That is more the side I would prefer to see this summer, for several reasons. Keaton doesn't convince me yet, despite his 100 in the first innings. Compared to Hameed, he just didn't 'look the part' despite scoring a ton. But he deserves a go.

Bairstow is wasted at 7, so needs to bat top 5 for me. And I think it will be a struggle to do that for a period of time whilst keeping. That means Foakes or Buttler in to keep wicket and Buttler deserves first shot.

Moeen is not a long term solution in the top 6. Too many airy dismissals and he has an obvious weakness against the short ball, which makes me think he will never be a bloke to average 40+ in Tests. But I do feel he is a better option with the ball in English conditions than Rashid - not really a comment on Moeen's ability, more condemnation of what I think Rashid can do in England in Tests.

Sorry to risk Olly's wrath too, but still not convinced by Woakes in Tests! I know he had a brilliant summer last year, but I like what I have seen from Jake Ball. Think he is more likely to trouble good players in the long run. But again, accept Woakes will be starting this summer - barring injury.

And there is no point debating Cook stepping down now, South Africa are over this summer so he should rightly follow in the long tradition of retiring during or after a South Africa series.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 7:02 pm

That's an excellent point re South Africa, the last three captains have gone that way so it would be rude for Cook to do otherwise!

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 8:29 pm

Yes Guilord I was referring to Gooch and how much he and pretty much everyone to be fair showered love on him for 3 consecutive centuries.....according to Gooch especially 150 rule none of them count. Except when it's a player he's invested his reputation in.

To be fair though I do kind of get the point that it takes a special genuine test batsman to make a big century, going that long without slipping up shows mental toughness, real technique and shots, as well as a touch of luck.
I mean you wouldn't see someone like (picks tail ender from history at random) Jason Gillespie getting a test double century *eyeroll*



JDizzle...I too would like to see another quick tried out, but you have to look at woakes batting if they are going to continue to pretend Stokes is a proper batsman ( needs more 150s) and pick two wicket keepers.
If they did go down that route though it would pretty much nail Moeen place back in as sole spinner (and occasional 150 scorer)

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