Eng in India

by alfie Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway Smile

by guildfordbat Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:06 pm

Goose - don't know if you were able to listen to Atherton on Sky a few minutes ago but after saying how much he admires ''from the commentary box'' Root's ''fluency'', he said '' ... but if you're sat in the dressing room, you're thinking 70s, 80s, 90s don't win you Test matches. 170s, 180s they win you Test matches and you'll be wanting him to convert more runs as indeed he would want to as well.''

No one is saying those conversions are easy or slating batsmen for not going beyond 80 but it is something we need to do more to have a better chance of winning, especially against this opposition.

We are probably at about level pegging now. We often have been on day one of this series but then fallen away as the match goes on. The same could sadly happen again. I know what would have made me feel more optimistic and that has something to do with Root still batting.

by VTR Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:07 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:If England can replicate the afternoon session in the evening they will be in very good nick at around 300 for 4. If India can take a couple of wickets in this last session reducing England to around 260 for 5 they will be pretty happy.

The game can move fast in the SC if the bowling team gets on a roll - and with a glut of non-specialists including a debutant to come I think India will still fancy having England 8 or 9 down by close

by LivinginItaly Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:19 pm

I hope the captain and the management team do talk to Root about the need to make big hundreds more consistently when he gets in. Not as a criticism, but as a motivational tool. You want to be the best player in the world? Prove it. Root isvery very good, but based on this series Kohli is ahead because he goes big when he is in.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:25 pm

List of England's problems

1) number 4/5 batsmen long term
2) spinner
.

999) Joe root getting out between 70-100 nearly everytime

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:28 pm

alfie wrote:

And good to see Moeen facing down the doubters

It doesnt count if he doesnt make 150 Whistle

by alfie Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:28 pm

VTR wrote:I suspect England will end up with an okay-ish score 350-400, then India will fancy piling on 500 and we'll have a repeat of the last Test. That's if they can handle Dawson of course!

That's been the real trouble on this trip , hasn't it ...couple of times now England have made pretty good first innings totals - but have then been unable to make any sort of early inroads when India reply. In the First Test they at least stayed on top - though didn't have enough time to force a win : last week they just got totally annihilated by Kohli and the Indian late order...
The only way England can hope to get a win - or even avoid defeat - is to establish a decent first innings advantage ; because once they are behind in the game (and the pitch is allowing a bit of spin) Ashwin and Jadeja are always going to pressure them out of it , as they've now done three matches in a row.

Can't say I'm overconfident that Dawson can make the difference Smile

But at least he will bring a new face , and a different angle. Perhaps the Indians will take him too easily ...and maybe they'll miss Jayant at nine...

We can hope

by VTR Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:30 pm

I think Root was sawn off today - so not really sure what the management are going to advise after that, become more friendly with the third umpire?

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:31 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:List of England's problems

1) number 34/5 batsmen long term
2) spinner
3) Having to play teams who have spinners in their 11
4) Trying to decide which batsman should keep wicket
5) Anderson and Broads fitness

999) Joe root getting out between 70-100 nearly everytime

by VTR Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:32 pm

In other cricket news - Pakistan are a very, very poor touring team. How on earth did we not beat them in the summer?

by guildfordbat Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:List of England's problems

1) number 4/5 batsmen long term
2) spinner
.

999) Joe root getting out between 70-100 nearly everytime

Olly - you've answered a question that wasn't asked.

I believe your 999 goes a lot higher up the list when answering the following question: what things could England have realistically looked to do today to win this Test match?

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:43 pm

VTR wrote:In other cricket news - Pakistan are a very, very poor touring team. How on earth did we not beat them in the summer?

Isn't it because we played them in the UAE where they're actually not too bad (and conditions aren't a million miles away from the sub continent)?

I see Cook and Jennings failed to bother the scorers too much - good bowling or bad shot selection?

Just missed Root's wicket and apparently he's not a happy bunny - thinks he didn't get an edge. England no reviews left?

Nice to see Moeen going well - shame he couldn't have had an innings like this when it might have mattered...

by LivinginItaly Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:43 pm

I agree there are more important issues to deal with. However, for all his undoubted talent his conversion rate is somewhat lower than it possibly should be. Today admittedly it looks like he got the wrong end of a decision. Don't misunderstand me, he is our best player and a wonderful talent, but I think he could be even more. Top teams try to improve in every department not only their obvious weaknesses.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:List of England's problems

1) number 4/5 batsmen long term
2) spinner
.

999) Joe root getting out between 70-100 nearly everytime

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:47 pm

LivinginItaly wrote:

Top teams try to improve in every department not only their obvious weaknesses.

I dont think anyones accussing Root of playing for a top team at the minute

by VTR Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:48 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
VTR wrote:In other cricket news - Pakistan are a very, very poor touring team. How on earth did we not beat them in the summer?

Isn't it because we played them in the UAE where they're actually not too bad (and conditions aren't a million miles away from the sub continent)?

No - we played them at home 6 months ago. A 2-2 draw really was a very underwhelming result, England's performance in the 4th Test was exceptionally poor and the defeat in the 1st Test England basically chucked the game away

by alfie Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:48 pm

VTR wrote:In other cricket news - Pakistan are a very, very poor touring team. How on earth did we not beat them in the summer?

Pakistan are still a bit up and down (they were in England , actually) but I thought they played some good cricket on that tour.
Even so I was actually more disappointed with England's failure to close out that series after taking the lead than I have been with their failings in alien conditions on this trip. Thought there was a touch of carelessness about the batting (still is , I guess )

Not too surprised Pakistan are failing in Australia. They have a terrible record here. And the Gabba is a hard place to play any time - theses day/night games probably make it even tougher.

by LivinginItaly Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:50 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
LivinginItaly wrote:

Top teams try to improve in every department not only their obvious weaknesses.

I dont think anyones accussing Root of playing for a top team at the minute

True!!! But the team's ambition is obviously to become the top team, hence the need to maximise every ounce of potential.

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:52 pm

VTR wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
VTR wrote:In other cricket news - Pakistan are a very, very poor touring team. How on earth did we not beat them in the summer?

Isn't it because we played them in the UAE where they're actually not too bad (and conditions aren't a million miles away from the sub continent)?

No - we played them at home 6 months ago. A 2-2 draw really was a very underwhelming result, England's performance in the 4th Test was exceptionally poor and the defeat in the 1st Test England basically chucked the game away

It does make the point though that all their games are tour games.
There is a sperate thread for this btw where I asked exactly the question why is it that the are suddenly looking so bad comapred to the side that held and beat England? How much was that us overating England (who look pretty shabby for the most part this sinter despite the false dawn of SA) vs them blowing hot and cold and really not coping in the Australasia tour. England sure do seem to have made a habit of meeting Paksitan on a good day in recent years.

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:56 pm

Oy!

Both Bairstow and Moeen living somewhat dangerously with England still in a position to collapse for a sub-par score.

Just highlights the fact they are really too attack-minded, or possibly just lacking in technique, to be batting this high up the order.

Really need a couple more Root type players before them.

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:59 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
VTR wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
VTR wrote:In other cricket news - Pakistan are a very, very poor touring team. How on earth did we not beat them in the summer?

Isn't it because we played them in the UAE where they're actually not too bad (and conditions aren't a million miles away from the sub continent)?

No - we played them at home 6 months ago. A 2-2 draw really was a very underwhelming result, England's performance in the 4th Test was exceptionally poor and the defeat in the 1st Test England basically chucked the game away

It does make the point though that all their games are tour games.
There is a sperate thread for this btw where I asked exactly the question why is it that the are suddenly looking so bad comapred to the side that held and beat England? How much was that us overating England (who look pretty shabby for the most part this sinter despite the false dawn of SA) vs them blowing hot and cold and really not coping in the Australasia tour. England sure do seem to have made a habit of meeting Paksitan on a good day in recent years.

Ugh! Forgot about that series. Think my brain deliberated blocked it from memory. That was pretty shambolic. Sad

Think England were just over-confident and expected to steamroller them in home conditions. Pride goeth before the fall etc.

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:00 pm

Im not sure thats fair Dyre, they arent exactly belting along ..just trying to stop the Indians from bowling at them and waiting to get out. The charge form Bairstow was maybe a bit rash granted, but for teh most part theyve been working 1's and 2's.

Just not good enough (in Moeens case) may be fairer. He does ride his luck at times, but because hes positive he does tend to get good scores when it comes off.

Getting beaten by Jadeja can happen to anyone though, ask Cook

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:02 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:List of England's problems

1) number 4/5 batsmen long term
2) spinner
.

999) Joe root getting out between 70-100 nearly everytime

Olly - you've answered a question that wasn't asked.

I believe your 999 goes a lot higher up the list when answering the following question: what things could England have realistically looked to do today to win this Test match?

I just think we're making a mountain out of a molehill here

by Hammersmith harrier Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:10 pm

I tend to think that Root's conversion rate is a big problem, he has a fabulous average and all those 50's are indeed the sign of a top player but they simply don't set up wins.

by guildfordbat Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:11 pm

alfie wrote:
VTR wrote:I suspect England will end up with an okay-ish score 350-400, then India will fancy piling on 500 and we'll have a repeat of the last Test. That's if they can handle Dawson of course!

That's been the real trouble on this trip , hasn't it ...couple of times now England have made pretty good first innings totals - but have then been unable to make any sort of early inroads when India reply. In the First Test they at least stayed on top - though didn't have enough time to force a win : last week they just got totally annihilated by Kohli and the Indian late order...
The only way England can hope to get a win - or even avoid defeat - is to establish a decent first innings advantage ; because once they are behind in the game (and the pitch is allowing a bit of spin) Ashwin and Jadeja are always going to pressure them out of it , as they've now done three matches in a row.

Can't say I'm overconfident that Dawson can make the difference

But at least he will bring a new face , and a different angle. Perhaps the Indians will take him too easily ...and maybe they'll miss Jayant at nine...

We can hope

Hi Alfie - yep, you're on the money with your opening para. We've often started ok in matches during this series but only to then fall away. Ok isn't good enough against this opposition on their home soil.

As for Dawson. For all my emphasis on the importance of major contributions from your leading players, you also need the supporting cast to chip in and especially if it's a tight game. Clearly, Dawson is more back row of the chorus than leading man. However, let's remember the now much derided Ansari picked up 3 match wickets and scored 30 odd in his only innings in the first Test. I would happily settle for Dawson doing that and it shouldn't be totally beyond him. That could actually make a difference but it's all dependent on others delivering their own meaningful performance.

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:18 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Im not sure thats fair Dyre, they arent exactly belting along ..just trying to stop the Indians from bowling at them and waiting to get out. The charge form Bairstow was maybe a bit rash granted, but for teh most part theyve been working 1's and 2's.

Just not good enough (in Moeens case) may be fairer. He does ride his luck at times, but because hes positive he does tend to get good scores when it comes off.

Getting beaten by Jadeja can happen to anyone though, ask Cook

Quite true Goose. It wasn't really intended as a criticism of the players - they are what they are and I wasn't implying they should be blocking and defending.

I was just saying the fact they are batting so high up the order (when they were batting 6-8 not so long ago) seems to be a statement from the selectors that we just don't have any more specialist batsmen in the Root / Hameed / Jennings mould.

Which can be a problem when their attacking tendencies lead to them getting out cheaply. Of course any batsman can get out to a good ball, but lets face it, a lot of times they do gift their wickets.

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:24 pm

Oh dear...

And right on cue Bairstow is caught for 49, bowled Jadeja. ENG 253-4. A good wicketkeeper's innings, but England really needed more at this stage.

What is it with England losing wickets late on in sessions?

by alfie Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:26 pm

Unfortunately Bairstow has just got out to an uncharacteristic soft slap to cover...he had played very well - mixing some wonderful big hits with sound defence.
Not sure what caused that brain fade.

End of another good partnership. Need one more big stand to turn this into a good score ...

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:28 pm

alfie wrote:Unfortunately Bairstow has just got out to an uncharacteristic soft slap to cover...he had played very well - mixing some wonderful big hits with sound defence.
Not sure what caused that brain fade.

End of another good partnership. Need one more big stand to turn this into a good score ...

#conversionrate
#wontsetupwinswithdawsonbowling

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:32 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I tend to think that Root's conversion rate is a big problem, he has a fabulous average and all those 50's are indeed the sign of a top player but they simply don't set up wins.

Stat check and youre right. England have a low win rate on games where Root has made 50 but failed to get a century, but won 8 of the 11 where he did get a centruy.

Moeen on the other hand makes bad centuries (but with a much betteer coversion rate), theyve only won 1 of the 4 previous games where hes made one.

Which all in goes to show statistics.

I cant help wondering with Root though if there is now a mental block. He gets over 50 more than anyone else, and makes big centuries when he does pass 100 (or stay not out). The number of times he gets out between 50 and 100 is disprortionate. It makes you wonder just how good he could be if that wasnt a thing, if it one and not just chance.

by alfie Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:33 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Oh dear...

And right on cue Bairstow is caught for 49, bowled Jadeja. ENG 253-4. A good wicketkeeper's innings, but England really needed more at this stage.

What is it with England losing wickets late on in sessions?

Suppose it does tend to happen when you are facing a good bowling attack and constantly under pressure - though on this occasion they had seemed to be fairly comfortable . I think the late wicket thing has afflicted India a few times too , to be fair.

Certainly Bairstow was very annoyed with himself. He was definitely thinking of a big innings.

England probably still OK for the day : but don't want to lose any more now.

Hundred for Moeen Yahoo

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:37 pm

Moeen you beautiful man

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:38 pm

alfie wrote:

Hundred for Moeen

I think this gives him more centuries than any other England player this year?

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:41 pm

Well done Moeen - nice hundred. clap

As I said before though it would have been much more impressive if England still had a chance of winning, or even drawing the series.

Horses, stable doors and all that...

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:44 pm

alfie wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Oh dear...

And right on cue Bairstow is caught for 49, bowled Jadeja. ENG 253-4. A good wicketkeeper's innings, but England really needed more at this stage.

What is it with England losing wickets late on in sessions?

Suppose it does tend to happen when you are facing a good bowling attack and constantly under pressure - though on this occasion they had seemed to be fairly comfortable . I think the late wicket thing has afflicted India a few times too , to be fair.

Certainly Bairstow was very annoyed with himself. He was definitely thinking of a big innings.

England probably still OK for the day : but don't want to lose any more now.

Hundred for Moeen

I could be wrong but I feel it happens to England more than most.

But then we only have 3 specialist batsmen in the team. After Root, I always feel we are one wild swipe / badly-judged shot away from losing the next wicket. We play aggressively and can score rapidly...but we also gift so many wickets...

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:48 pm

He's certainly made himself a lot more selectable for the summer with this innings.

New ball could be key to teh day, seeing him take 2 boundaries off Sharma is great to a point but the second one was a dodgy shot he nearly got out to at a vital time. LAte wickets ...thats exactly the sort of reason why.
Positivity yes, over confidence and wafting is exactly how they screwed up the last good position.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:48 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
alfie wrote:

Hundred for Moeen

I think this gives him more centuries than any other England player this year?

4 centuries for him this year

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:52 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
alfie wrote:

Hundred for Moeen

I think this gives him more centuries than any other England player this year?

4 centuries for him this year

In fact this brings him level with Kohli for most in the world this year

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:54 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
alfie wrote:

Hundred for Moeen

I think this gives him more centuries than any other England player this year?

4 centuries for him this year

Root and Bairstow 3 apiece and Cook just 2. Yet the other 3 have massively outscored him over the year...which just goes to show conversion rates arent everything.

Another stat .. hes joined (ruined?) an illustrious list with Barrington, Cowdrey, Gatting, Strauss, Cook, in getting 2+ centuries in India in a series.

by alfie Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:56 pm

Unlike some - who , reasonably enough , remain doubtful - I rather like the way England have played today.

After losing two early wickets they battled it out carefully to lunch ; and I think they've played good positive cricket since. The Bairstow wicket has marred it a little ; but really 216/2 in fifty nine overs since lunch is pretty useful stuff , no ?

Can they get through the last over or two ?

by VTR Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:56 pm

I still like Moeen type players at 7 or even 8, and he has scored centuries and flashy 50's from lower down the order. I think moving everyone up has turned a strength into a weakness as actually the tail looks fairly lengthy for this match as I am not really relying on 8 down for too many runs!

If, and big if, we can find some actual batsman then we can go back to a 7/8/9 of Bairstow/Ali/Woakes. I don't see that as a waste of them, look at how India's lower order have done in this series - it's been utterly demoralising for England and has been a huge factor in their series win

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:59 pm

VTR wrote:I still like Moeen type players at 7 or even 8, and he has scored centuries and flashy 50's from lower down the order. I think moving everyone up has turned a strength into a weakness as actually the tail looks fairly lengthy for this match as I am not really relying on 8 down for too many runs!

If, and big if, we can find some actual batsman then we can go back to a 7/8/9 of Bairstow/Ali/Woakes. I don't see that as a waste of them, look at how India's lower order have done in this series - it's been utterly demoralising for England and has been a huge factor in their series win

Completely agree with this - and in this match Jayant Yadav will be a big miss for India

by alfie Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:03 pm

And that's the close at 284/4

England's day definitely . Whether they can turn that into something more remains to be seen ; but for now ... thumbsup

Moeen I think is showing he'll be very hard to discard. Had his luck at the start ; but it really has been a damn good innings .

by VTR Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:04 pm

Yes, India look weaker for the loss of Yadav, who has been a real thorn in England's side - I think he averages about 60 this series. Obviously Jadeja and Ashwin have chipped in at key times as well. In an alternative reality where that lot are as comically bad as Pakistan's bowlers are at batting, there's no way India would be 3-0 up

by Gooseberry Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:05 pm

VTR wrote:I still like Moeen type players at 7 or even 8, and he has scored centuries and flashy 50's from lower down the order. I think moving everyone up has turned a strength into a weakness as actually the tail looks fairly lengthy for this match as I am not really relying on 8 down for too many runs!

If, and big if, we can find some actual batsman then we can go back to a 7/8/9 of Bairstow/Ali/Woakes. I don't see that as a waste of them, look at how India's lower order have done in this series - it's been utterly demoralising for England and has been a huge factor in their series win

Trade Ali for Buttler and I have no issue, if theres a mid order batsman who actually justifies being picked...which currently there isnt.
If he ends up at 8 (in a home series), then that suggest only 1 spinner (him) which is not great IMO.
I also have issues with Stokes in the top 6, but the same kind of applies with him. At least one of them has to be there if they want 5/6 bowling options, dont want to bat their keeper high and or dont want a long tail. Again who is this mystery batsman(men) thats going to come in at 5/6 be more dependable and average in the mid 40's? We got as far as Hildreth in the list of desperate suggestions, with Vince and Duckett looking on sheepishly from the (s)crap heap.

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:09 pm

VTR wrote:I still like Moeen type players at 7 or even 8, and he has scored centuries and flashy 50's from lower down the order. I think moving everyone up has turned a strength into a weakness as actually the tail looks fairly lengthy for this match as I am not really relying on 8 down for too many runs!

If, and big if, we can find some actual batsman then we can go back to a 7/8/9 of Bairstow/Ali/Woakes. I don't see that as a waste of them, look at how India's lower order have done in this series - it's been utterly demoralising for England and has been a huge factor in their series win

Well said!

Much has been made about how England bat to 11, but they really haven't for some time now. India's middle order and tail has performed considerably better and dug them out of holes on the few occasions when England have looked set to get them out for a sub-par score.

by VTR Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:12 pm

I have no idea who these batsman are - though we seem to have found a good prospect in Hameed, who didn't have the most amazing FC record, but obviously has something about him

Jennings deserves a few matches as he did make an assured 100. Gary Ballance might come back to form? James Vince having had a taste of what's needed could do a Bairstow and make the improvements needed to succeed?

by alfie Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:14 pm

VTR wrote:I still like Moeen type players at 7 or even 8, and he has scored centuries and flashy 50's from lower down the order. I think moving everyone up has turned a strength into a weakness as actually the tail looks fairly lengthy for this match as I am not really relying on 8 down for too many runs!

If, and big if, we can find some actual batsman then we can go back to a 7/8/9 of Bairstow/Ali/Woakes. I don't see that as a waste of them, look at how India's lower order have done in this series - it's been utterly demoralising for England and has been a huge factor in their series win

Well that's the song I've been singing all through this tour... I do understand why they've messed the order around to try and fit in more bowling ; but it hasn't worked. And I really hope they revert to the previous set up in July...with the proviso that they can find someone a bit more solid than Vince or Ballance to fill that pesky number five spot !
Still can't believe that there isn't a player in England who can fill that role ; just needs to be identified. The search should go on until he is...

by dyrewolfe Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:14 pm

England fought back well after a terrible start and I think are about on par with where they would have liked to be at close of play.

If Moeen can pick up where he left off, England have every chance of posting a big total - provided Stokes and Buttler can provide some solid support.

On the other hand, the way this series has gone, they could just as likely end up 350 all out.

Be interesting to see which it is...

by guildfordbat Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:16 pm

In the end, a good to very good first day for England. Essential to make it count tomorrow (guidance presumably on the way from Craig. Very Happy

) Particularly pleased no one else fell after Bairstow - that would have been so encouraging for India.

PS Just seen a recording of Jennings' dismissal. Terrible shot and then some. That century already starting to look as if it was a while ago.

by alfie Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:21 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
VTR wrote:I still like Moeen type players at 7 or even 8, and he has scored centuries and flashy 50's from lower down the order. I think moving everyone up has turned a strength into a weakness as actually the tail looks fairly lengthy for this match as I am not really relying on 8 down for too many runs!

If, and big if, we can find some actual batsman then we can go back to a 7/8/9 of Bairstow/Ali/Woakes. I don't see that as a waste of them, look at how India's lower order have done in this series - it's been utterly demoralising for England and has been a huge factor in their series win

Trade Ali for Buttler and I have no issue, if theres a mid order batsman who actually justifies being picked...which currently there isnt.
If he ends up at 8 (in a home series), then that suggest only 1 spinner (him) which is not great IMO.
I also have issues with Stokes in the top 6, but the same kind of applies with him. At least one of them has to be there if they want 5/6 bowling options, dont want to bat their keeper high and or dont want a long tail. Again who is this mystery batsman(men) thats going to come in at 5/6 be more dependable and average in the mid 40's? We got as far as Hildreth in the list of desperate suggestions, with Vince and Duckett looking on sheepishly from the (s)crap heap.

Thought you'd be back on that one , Goose Smile

And you are of course correct the mystery man is still unknown (maybe it is Hildreth ?) I would like to see whoever is in form and looking the type in early season cc : plenty of time before the Tests start next summer so there should be time to get a fair sample.

Anyway I won't keep banging this drum - I know we aren't going to agree on it until one method or the other results in a string of glorious victories Smile

By te way I have no problem with Moeen as sole spinner in England.. I don't want to think about Australia just yet...

by Mad for Chelsea Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:25 pm

I'm going to politely disagree on Jennings's dismissal guildford. It was a wide-ish (but not horrendously wide) pretty full half-volley, the sort of ball that most decent batsmen would happily hammer away to the cover boundary, and gleefully accept as a nice starter to their innings. I have no issues with him playing the shot. There are issues with the execution, obviously, mainly the lack of weight transference which in terms means a lack of foot movement, so he ends up playing with his hands mostly.

Anyway, a good day for England, but as others have said, need to make it count. 400+ minimum needed from here. Fine knock from Moeen, who's come on very nicely as a batsman this year.

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