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Post by alfie on Thu 08 Dec 2016, 9:44 am

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway Smile

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 11:46 am

MfC - I've only seen the Jennings dismissal once and will look at it again in light of your post. However, I can't promise to change my mind.

As a general point, I do feel too much sympathy is extended here and by some of the professional pundits to Test batsmen getting out to poorly executed shots. To my mind, it's too often said - ''the approach was right, it was just the shot that let him down''.

I remain very surprised that Cook's stumping before lunch on day one of the last Test hasn't attracted more comment and criticism. There is no need for your openers to rush at that stage of a match lasting five days. Similarly today, I suspect although I will look again and reconsider, my gut feeling is that Jennings had to play the right shot to an ordinary ball at that time or no shot at all.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 11:57 am

I think people are trying to make a distinction between:
- what I would call poor shots, e.g. a batsman new to the crease attempting a big booming drive on the up when the ball is seaming/swinging around;
- what I would more label poor execution, e.g. spinner bowls a long-hop which the batsman tries to put away but makes a mess of.

I would argue Jennings's dismissal today features more in the second category. I find Boycs irritating in that he labels everytime a batsman gets out playing a positive shot as belonging in the first category. Runs do need to be scored, even in Tests (in ODIs of course Boycs may or may not have cost England a world cup due to scoring too slowly...), and again decent bowling attacks that means taking the odd calculated risk.

I do think England have at times under Bayliss gone a bit too far the other way, and my gut feeling is that includes this series, albeit I actually haven't watched a huge amount of it, relying mostly on highlights.

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Post by alfie on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 12:05 pm

I'm on the fence re Jennings.

Agree with MFC too much is sometimes made of a (reasonable) aggressive stroke leading to a wicket . On the other hand I'm not sure Jennings was quite "in" enough today after seventeen balls for one run to be playing an expansive drive. Fine lines though...

Jennings is going to have people discussing him a lot from now to July (unless he gets big runs second innings here) because he has so far demonstrated ability and fragility in about equal degree. Which might put people in mind of Lyth , Robson , etc...unfairly , I think. My gut says he is a bit better ; but he will need to prove it.
Another failure here and that century may not quite have him nailed on for the first home Test.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 12:27 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I tend to think that Root's conversion rate is a big problem, he has a fabulous average and all those 50's are indeed the sign of a top player but they simply don't set up wins.

Stat check and youre right. England have a low win rate on games where Root has made 50 but failed to get a century, but won 8 of the 11 where he did get a centruy.

Moeen on the other hand makes bad centuries (but with a much betteer coversion rate), theyve only won 1 of the 4 previous games where hes made one.

Which all in goes to show statistics.

I cant help wondering with Root though if there is now a mental block. He gets over 50 more than anyone else, and makes big centuries when he does pass 100 (or stay not out). The number of times he gets out between 50 and 100 is disprortionate. It makes you wonder just how good he could be if that wasnt a thing, if it one and not just chance.

It was an issue Thorpe had too but his was more understandable considering he was playing in a very poor team, oddly his conversion got better as Vaughan and Tres came into the side lessening his burden from memory.

It has to be a mental block as Steve Smith who has an ounce of Root's talent has a pretty damn good conversion.

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Post by VTR on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 1:08 pm

Spot on re Thorpe - and he was at 20% pre 2000, 40% after

Root is at 30%. Smith and Kohli both around 50% so a markedly better. Williamson also better at 37%

Not many current England players to do a fair comparison to, given Ali and Bairstow for example don't have many hundreds and have batted down the order, but we do have Cook at 36%

One stat about Root though is he has a very high % of 50+ innings as a total of all innings

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 1:51 pm

See I remember when KP used to get criticized for not turning his high number of centuries into 150+ scores.
He didn't pass 50 anywhere near as often as Root, or turn his centuries into 150s as often despite having far more.

I guess what all this proves is absolutely nothing at all.

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Post by VTR on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 2:03 pm

KP - 40% conversion rate

10 if his 23 Test hundreds were 150+, which is around the same proportion as Root with 5 out of 11 (though he does have a 149 not out, but sorry Joe, Goochie isn't haven't that one Wink )

KP, does of course still have a chance of adding to the above stats given he is still the best available option according to his own Twitter account

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 2:10 pm

I discounted not outs below 150


KPs twitter account may have a valid point for once



If he means as an alternative to Nigel Farrage as Trumps PR advisor

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Post by VTR on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 2:16 pm

Anything as long as it means he gives up his godawful commentary career

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 4:20 pm

guildfordbat wrote:In the end, a good to very good first day for England. Essential to make it count tomorrow (guidance presumably on the way from Craig.  Very Happy ) Particularly pleased no one else fell after Bairstow - that would have been so encouraging for India.

PS Just seen a recording of Jennings' dismissal. Terrible shot and then some. That century already starting to look as if it was a while ago.

Well England will definitely hope to build on this firm foundation. A good day for them would constitute them getting to lunch on 360 for 5. Kicking on in the afternoon to reach around 470 for 7 at tea and getting bowled out around close of play for around 550.

India will obviously hope for quick wickets tomorrow to reduce England to around 350 for 7 and bowl them out midway through the day for just under 400. By tea reach around 40 for 0. In the evening session reach close no worse than 100 for 2.
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Post by LivinginItaly on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 6:03 pm

England should be hoping for a minimum of 500 given the overnight positon. Seeing how this tour has gone though I wouldn't be at all surprised to wake up and find England 350- 8 at lunch.

It feels like I have gone back in time 20 years....England doing well in a dead rubber after being comprehensively beaten during the live games.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 6:11 pm

43, 18, 76, 6*

Quietly Jos Buttler has done pretty well since he's come into the side (considering he's batting mainly with a tail that hasn't wagged too)

Hoping he goes well tomorrow - personally think he should be the #7 long term, but then I'm probably his biggest fan tbf
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Post by KP_fan on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 8:38 pm

Saw only portions and then the highlights...thoughts on the match

1) Ind one wicket short of making it a Par day and 2 wickets short of winning the  day...so it was Eng's day...although given the  pitch 300-3 could have been also within the realms of possible.

2) the pitch is flat and slow.......there is no high bounce  or variable bounce.....batsmen can hit through the line.... and the turn is so slow that you almost have time to commit to front foot and the adjust and go on the back-foot after the ball is pitched....

In my view this is because the pitch did not get enough sun to dry....it was a bit damp in the first session and hence afforded some turn
by the second session the dampness was gone and it became juts FLAT.....but it's not so dry that it would crack and break anytime soon....enough moisture to keep the pitch intact through the 5 days

3) and having lost first shami and now jayant two guys who could get just a bit more out of the flat pitch.....doesn't help...Indian bowling is one notch lower in this game
I like Mishra and a supporter of him...but he has gotten the most patta of a pitch....and if this was an ODI pitch 330ish would be a par score.


Ishant is lacking rythm, relaxed coming back from a wedding break....... will get better if he bowls a long spell...he improves as he works more and more...

(4) 
Eng will get from here 425ish even if there is a less likely collapse .....and most like they will hit 500.

Draw remains the most likely option..but India has to be very careful.....one complacency, one collapse and they are up and against it ...although taking 20 wickets won't be easy here for English bowlers either....

5) Indian win will go out of the equation the moment  Eng cross 450 tomm......unless Eng make a bold declaration in 3rd inning to trying to enforce a consolatory win..... and Ind will try to chase down a 3.5+ RPO total in 4th inning like they chased 387 in 4th inning in Chennai vs Eng in 2008
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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 16 Dec 2016, 9:21 pm

I think people are over estimating how easy 500 rund is to score in any curcumstance and how much batting England have left to come.
And forgetting that although Ashwin had a bad day at the office he is still a thing.

Theres two all rounders, a keeper who got dropped for not scoring enough runs, a guy noone can fathom how he ended up here in the first place, and 3 bowlers to score over 200 runs between them.
England had a marginaly stronger tail in the last game and spunked a similar position to be all out for 400.
The only time theyve made 500 they had a better total at 4 down and a much stronger tail.
If you combine the batting averages of the remaining players its only around 175 ( and thats giving a generous estimate of 30 to Dawson) .... 40 behind whats needed to make 500.

To make India genuinely worried that need that 500 and some loose change. If they get it its a truely exceptional performance by England midnand lower order .

If they can take 10 indian wickets in 120 overs as well to get a solid lead then Ill just retire from the internet.

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Post by alfie on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:01 am

Think Gooseberry has a good point there ...getting to 500 will be far from straightforward .
Probably depends a lot on Stokes : if he gets going and plays one of his special innings 500 might come up rather quickly. Not sure the other bats are capable of scraping up 220 between them though . Olly has correctly noted Buttler has done quite well ; but the rest of the tail does not inspire confidence.

Hope Goose is wrong about bowling India out though - surely they are due a bad innings ?
Though I don't want to see Goose retire from the Internet Smile

Off to defend 220 - wish me luck. Hope to get home this evening to see England still firing...

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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:25 am

Nathaniel - you appear to have signed up to the wrong site.

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Post by LivinginItaly on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 7:24 am

Good little recovery by Rashid and dawson after the inevitable mini collapse by England. 400 is within reach, 450 still looks possible. 500 a dream at this moment.

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Post by alfie on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 7:40 am

Just popped in between a (losing) cricket match and the club Christmas party ; seems England have 400 now tanks to these two. Spinners ...agree 500 looks distant but hope they can tease it up over 450
Which would be good after losing Stokes and Buttler o quickly early today.

As always : will need to bowl well.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 7:47 am

As i was only saying last night Liam Dawson us a fine all round cricketer and wringly overlooked for this tour

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Post by jimbohammers on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 8:27 am

My man Dawson proving a few people wrong.... Great knock just when England needed it

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 8:41 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:In the end, a good to very good first day for England. Essential to make it count tomorrow (guidance presumably on the way from Craig.  Very Happy ) Particularly pleased no one else fell after Bairstow - that would have been so encouraging for India.

PS Just seen a recording of Jennings' dismissal. Terrible shot and then some. That century already starting to look as if it was a while ago.

Well England will definitely hope to build on this firm foundation. A good day for them would constitute them getting to lunch on 360 for 5. Kicking on in the afternoon to reach around 470 for 7 at tea and getting bowled out around close of play for around 550.

India will obviously hope for quick wickets tomorrow to reduce England to around 350 for 7 and bowl them out midway through the day for just under 400. By tea reach around 40 for 0. In the evening session reach close no worse than 100 for 2.

A weird day so far in terms of the road maps. At lunch India were on track with their road map but the afternoon session has seen England get back almost onto their road map.

At tea England are 452 for 8 with Dawson showing his worth with the bat on debut on 55 not out. That golden mark of 500 is still possible but the pitch still looks very good for batting on so India will fancy achieving at least parity. It will be interesting to see how Dawson performs with the ball.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 8:44 am

I see its been left to our number 8 and 9 to rescue the innings Rolling Eyes

Just shows England do desperately need more proper batsmen higher up the order.

Congrats to Rashid and Dawson for picking up the slack, (great efforts both clap ) but we can't be relying on our tail enders to dig us out of trouble all the time, as they just won't.

Still think India will easily match whatever score we post.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 9:12 am

Oh well. Broad run out and we won't even make 500 now.

Pretty disappointing considering we were 250-odd for 4 yesterday.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 9:30 am

England bowled out for 477 with Dawson 66 not out on debut.

You feel that is maybe 50 to 75 runs short on this pitch. True it could/should have been better but at 321 for 7 it could also have been much worse.
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Post by jimbohammers on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 9:31 am

Ball and Broad add some important runs.

Dawson finishes 66 not out. Well played Liam!

Was a great partnership between Rashid and Dawson.


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Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 9:35 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:England bowled out for 477 with Dawson 66 not out on debut.

You feel that is maybe 50 to 75 runs short on this pitch. True it could/should have been better but at 321 for 7 it could also have been much worse.

Agreed.

In home conditions it would be plenty and we could have absorbed the batting failures higher up the order, but here it just feels ordinary / about par.

Such is the handicap of not being able to bowl particularly well in these conditions.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 9:38 am

Oh Vijay is injured and so wicketkeeper Patel will open with Rahul.
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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 9:53 am

jimbohammers wrote:My man Dawson proving a few people wrong.... Great knock just when England needed it

Jimbo - your man did well and you both deserve to enjoy your day in the sun.

I don't see Dawson being a Test star but he seems capable of putting in some handy performances (as I had hoped would be the case with Ansari and which he did, to a limited extent, in the first Test of this series). I did feel Dawson's selection attracted too much criticism. He was after all in ''my team'' for the previous Test.

Number 8 is an important spot and made all the more tricky for this England team with the number of all rounders.

Now can he get a couple of wickets? That should be his aim, stretching but not unrealistic.


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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:00 am

It will be interesting if Dawson does pick up a couple of wickets in this innings as he is in the side for his bowling not his batting.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:12 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:It will be interesting if Dawson does pick up a couple of wickets in this innings as he is in the side for his bowling not his batting.

I suspect he is going to be another Moeen...more useful for his batting. Wouldn't mind if he proved me wrong though.
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Post by alfie on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:27 am

Hah

Back to see England did exceed 450. That looks a fair total - well done Dawson and Rashid clap

No early wicket though. What happened to Vijay ?

Going to have to bowl accurately and patiently to keep India under that. But it's a start...

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Post by alfie on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:53 am

So...I see India are batting without any alarms...

50 off 17. On their way again.

Of course , Dawson hasn't bowled yet...

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Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 10:57 am

alfie wrote:Hah

Back to see England did exceed 450.   That looks a fair total - well done Dawson and Rashid clap

No early wicket though.  What happened to Vijay ?

Going to have to bowl accurately and patiently to keep India under that.  But it's a start...

Vijay picked up some sort of injury and may not play this innings.

As you observed though, it may not matter as India are progressing quite serenely.

As for England's total, it was good considering the position they were in after Stokes and Buttler were out, but I will be surprised if India aren't 100 runs or so ahead at the end of their innings.

Great comment from Vic Marks on TMS. "Its been a great day for England's spinners...as batsmen". Pretty much sums up England's tour. Very Happy

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Post by alfie on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:38 am

No wickets tonight is disappointing - if not too surprising. Got a good score (well goodish anyway ) need to make sure India don't get a monster this time.
There will be chances tomorrow . Have to take them. Looks a bit like the last match ; but it doesn't have to go the same way. Tomorrow is crucial...

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:45 am

India rock solid start to their innings on 60 for 0. Unless this pitch starts to deteriorate on day three I think the draw is the best England can hope for here. My road maps for tomorrow are as follows:-

England need wickets tomorrow morning which seems to be time of day that the pitch yields most wickets so they'd hope to reduce India to around 150 for 3 by lunch. The afternoon session they'd take picking up another couple of wickets to have India around 240 for 5 and then use the second new ball in the final session to good effect to get more wickets to reduce India to around 350 for 8 at close.

India will not be in any rush. They will aim to bat England out of contention for the win. To do this they will aim to reach lunch on around 170 for 1 and then kick on in the afternoon to be around 280 for 3 at tea. By close they'd hope to be around the 400 mark with no more than 5 wickets down.
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Post by KP_fan on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 2:43 pm

--Its a frikkin dead pitch and India did well to wind them up for 470 odd...especially given that Eng was 250-3 at one time ..... the middle order collapsed to 320-7 made it easier to finish this inning at less than 550

--It was an extraordinary effort by the 2 seamers....they bent their back and got something out of the pitch.....and this is the only time we missed a 3rd pacer.....a fully fit shami or the rookie shardul in place of mishra would have allowed India to contain them for 400ish

Dig the ball in at 140kph or more and get it up into the rib cage and helmet grill troubles these "bowling allrounders" of Eng starting from no.4....but is energy sapping and not sustainable for too long. ....especally when you have only two pacers.

Ishant had not gained peak macth fitness at the start yet got better as he bowled more.....he is a strong workhorse who can bowl throuhg a session at 85mph+ speeds when fully fit...and the more he bowls the better he gets...

--Won't read much in to Dawson's batting yet...most benign of conditions.

--Unless half the Indian team commits suicide, it would be hard for Eng to get 20 wickets and win
their pace bowlers have to bend their backs and ball dig it in.....or bend back to bowl very full and fast trying to get reverse....but this Eng team has a culture of "preserve" their fast bowling.......so they are unable to be effective on pitches where "bend your back and go flat out" is the only way to collect wickets,

Spinners will find it very hard to get wickets.....even if the batsman is beaten on the front foot he has time to adjust and go back...so slow and  even the pitch is.
England will miss their 4th seamer here  Very Happy

and on the bowing side don't judge Dawson's bowling too harshly or at all....here.....look at Ashwin's figures and those of Mishra....who is a champion spinner at ranji level 

Result---> Only outside chance I see is if India bat almost two more days lead by 150+ and then Eng collapse of D5....that too very remote...because the pitch is not likely to break even by D5

Else 2 drawn tests inspite of confusion over their squad of 15 and 18 and playing 11 and their media hounding the captain for no real reason in the middle of the series....Eng would not have done bad.
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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 3:13 pm

To be honest the way englands tail wagged just makes the script even more clear, the pitch is perfect for India and Kholi to make a big score.
The real effect of Dawson hanging around so long might be to give england a sniff of scrapping a draw.

As KPF said on paper 3-0 isnt as bad as it couldve been, especially as they were close to winning the first test. But the scale of defeat in the fourth test and the number of players whonseem on short time still makes it a pretty bad place for England.

Today couldve gone a lot worse, but in the grand scheme of things it doesnt count for a lot.

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 5:01 am

After the first hour this morning it is looking like a very tough day for England.  Probably a very tough 2 days , in fact.
No balls doing anything to disturb the batsmen , score ticking over nicely without risks ...partnership already worth 120 , both batsmen over fifty.

Hard to see where a wicket will come from .

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 5:38 am

Wicket at last as Parthiv miscues to cover...reward for some decent bowling from Moeen ( and Rashid at the other end ) for the last few minutes.
India still pretty happy at 152/1 Smile

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 5:46 am

Reckon Parthiv has been a real asset to India since stepping in : might not be the most polished keeper ; but a couple of very useful opening batting efforts now. Aggressive against the new ball , he's set India well on the way to fulfilling Craig's first interval mark on the Roadmap for Today...

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 6:11 am

The pitch as expected
India's scoreline a little faster than expected....

take it session by session....after lunch needed a 100 run session for no further loss
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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 7:51 am

So there was I , taking a few minutes out from the Test Match , feeding the cat... When suddenly I felt the earth shift on its axis...

...and returning to the television discovered it wasn't that : was Kohli clipping Broad straight to cover to depart for a lame fifteen...

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 7:59 am

Has actually been a very good hour or so for England since lunch : Stokes picking up Pujara , a decent job of containment from Dawson , and some clever bowling from Broad that eventually induced an error from the Indian captain.

Not for the first time in this series , England find themselves in a position from which they could forge a serious advantage. Rahul is playing beautifully , of course ; but Karun is still raw , and can't be full of confidence : another wicket now and who knows ?

Rashid back for Dawson now ; needs to bring his best game...

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 8:22 am

I seem to be talking to myself here ; but this is really rather an interesting passage of play : two bats , one set and scoring freely , the other battling ... a good mix of seam and spin (Ball replacing Broad now and needs to maintain control ) while the attacking Rashid has come on for Dawson with the double edged sword he brings - threat versus free pies with sauce...
He has bowled a couple that turned and bounced - and hasn't sent down too much rubbish yet. Suspect this spell may be crucial as more wickets are needed but England don't need to bleed runs (or play Karun in)
Over rate is dreadful , by the way. Could be a bit of overtime later...
(60/2 since lunch in 21 overs)

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 9:33 am

Hi Alfie - you're not completely on your own. Been watching a bit, joined as Kohli fell. From comms, seemed decent bowling from Broad building up to and to inducing the fatal shot. Like you, I hoped we could get Karun early but, as so often in this series, reality not matching our hopes.

I noticed that shortly before lunch you posted that Rashid had been bowling decently. What followed? I ask as his figures now don't reflect your earlier comment.

2 or 3 wickets in this final session would keep us interested but a draw is already very much looking the outcome to me.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 9:46 am

Thought Rahul could and should have been run out there. The Indian commentator on Sky just banged on about Rashid's poor throw - true but Bairstow still took the ball and had time to take the bails off. Puzzled. Alfie? Anyone else?

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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 9:57 am

Wow - England just not getting any luck here. Karun dropped by Cook on 34, off Ball.

The torture continues...
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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 9:59 am

guildfordbat wrote:Thought Rahul could and should have been run out there. The Indian commentator on Sky just banged on about Rashid's poor throw - true but Bairstow still took the ball and had time to take the bails off. Puzzled. Alfie? Anyone else?

The TMS chaps reckoned the keeper should have got the ball and stumped him. Not the easiest of chances but certainly do-able.
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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 10:01 am

Cheers, dyre. That was very much what I thought. Strange, the Sky coverage concentrated entirely on Rashid's throw and not the keeper.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 10:07 am

dyrewolfe wrote:Wow - England just not getting any luck here. Karun dropped by Cook on 34, off Ball.

The torture continues...

Yep, we're currently ahead by 164 but the way these two are going and with a few still to come you don't see us getting a first innings lead. Certainly not a big 'un. Mind you, we'll still have to bat particularly badly not to get the draw.

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