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Post by alfie on Thu 08 Dec 2016, 9:44 am

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway Smile

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 10:15 am

To be honest i'm finding this series a real bore, there's no contest between bat and ball for the first 2/3 days with both teams piling on the runs then the pitches become a minefield.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 10:28 am

guildfordbat wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Wow - England just not getting any luck here. Karun dropped by Cook on 34, off Ball.

The torture continues...

Yep, we're currently ahead by 164 but the way these two are going and with a few still to come you don't see us getting a first innings lead. Certainly not a big 'un. Mind you, we'll still have to bat particularly badly not to get the draw.

This looks a cast iron draw now. India will bat and bat and bat. Their chance to force the win will be to bat once batting through until around the close of play tomorrow with around 600 on the board. They'd then hope to see the pitch deteriorate quite rapidly and bowl England out on the last day very cheaply and get an innings win (a carbon copy of the last test). A 25% chance of that happening. The much more remote possibility of an England win would be for a sudden Indian collapse by lunch tomorrow being all out for around 450. Bat through to the close of play tomorrow with a lead around 250 and hope to bowl India out on the last day. A 5% chance of that happening.
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Post by VTR on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 10:35 am

I think England will lose this, looking like they will be in significant arrears with something like 80 overs to bat to save the game. With the incentive being losing the series by three or four, I don't think they will be up for it

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 10:53 am

guildfordbat wrote:Thought Rahul could and should have been run out there. The Indian commentator on Sky just banged on about Rashid's poor throw - true but Bairstow still took the ball and had time to take the bails off. Puzzled. Alfie? Anyone else?

Sorry , guildford ...was off the air. Yes I agree it was an odd one - poor throw but if he'd taken the bails it would have been a photo finish at least. Did he decline to do so or just miss with his hands ? I suspect the latter...

As to Rashid : early spell was OK . Where he disappointed me - not for the first time - was when he came back to attack the new batsman after Kohli fell : England needed him to step up and threaten - he didn't. And went for five per over. Wasn't rubbish ( well most of it wasn't) ; but it wasn't menacing either. I know this is a bland pitch , but a wrist spinner is supposed to test a new batsman a bit on any surface. (Which then allows him to be forgiven for being expensive at times )

England have actually missed a couple of run out chances today. Only one catch - and that an extremely tough one. Really is a bit of a road at the moment. But I'd have hoped they'd have restrained the run rate a bit better - especially when getting Kohli cheaply for once.
Dawson has bowled quite well , I think.

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:00 am

VTR wrote:I think England will lose this, looking like they will be in significant arrears with something like 80 overs to bat to save the game. With the incentive being losing the series by three or four,  I don't think they will be up for it

Certainly a danger of that . India scoring quickly enough that they may have a significant lead by late tomorrow ; and even if the pitch doesn't fall apart batting out the last day may test a battered touring team.

Like to think it won't happen : they've actually played pretty solidly here , rather than looking as if they are longing for the plane home. But definitely a fair chance.

Still time for India to get careless and be bowled out for under 600 , I guess Smile

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:08 am

You know a team is getting desperate when they refer something like that Smile

Guess it wasted a couple of minutes though.

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:11 am

Rashid back . Chance to prove me totally wrong by taking three quick wickets...

And there is one !

Awful ball , nearly a wide ...but Rahul pops it up to fall for 199 Very Happy


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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:15 am

...end of a magnificent innings from Rahul clap

Very flat pitch , etc - but still a very fine effort. thumbsup

Now : is thistwo in two ? Close lbw ...not out ...referral ?

No. Reviews all gone Sad

Actually didn't mind that review : was the previous one that was a daft waste.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:17 am

Oh unlucky Rahul! So close to a maiden double century. Looks like nerves got to him - sloppy shot. Fantastic innings nevertheless which has gone a long way to putting India in the box seat. clap

England will be relieved with the breakthrough, but its too late to give them any hope of winning the match. Draw will be the best they can hope for now.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:18 am

I don't understand why so much negativity is aimed towards Rashid when he's comprehensively outbowled Ali, seems like people made their minds up some time ago.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:21 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't understand why so much negativity is aimed towards Rashid when he's comprehensively outbowled Ali, seems like people made their minds up some time ago.

He leaks runs. A key part of taking wickets for any team is to restrict the run rate and Rashid just concedes too many runs. Heck even Dawson has more control.
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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:22 am

Yeah I think the winning chance evaporated with that fourth wicket partnership. Technically still possible for India to implode and England to set them a nasty challenge on the last day ; but I think life being found on Mars or Britain achieving a Brexit deal that will please everyone are rather more likely Smile

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:25 am

alfie wrote:Yeah I think the winning chance evaporated with that fourth wicket partnership. Technically still possible for India to implode and England to set them a nasty challenge on the last day ; but I think life being found on Mars or Britain achieving a Brexit deal that will please everyone are rather more likely Smile

Agreed.

I think this is now more about a learning curve for England's selectors. A chance to look closely at possible players who will play a big part in the future. The likes of Jake Ball, Keaton Jennings and Liam Dawson. See how they deal with this situation and what they offer.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:25 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't understand why so much negativity is aimed towards Rashid when he's comprehensively outbowled Ali, seems like people made their minds up some time ago.

He leaks runs. A key part of taking wickets for any team is to restrict the run rate and Rashid just concedes too many runs. Heck even Dawson has more control.

Run rate is over rated and taking wickets is all that matters, something Rashid does better than the other spinners.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:30 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't understand why so much negativity is aimed towards Rashid when he's comprehensively outbowled Ali, seems like people made their minds up some time ago.

He leaks runs. A key part of taking wickets for any team is to restrict the run rate and Rashid just concedes too many runs. Heck even Dawson has more control.

Run rate is over rated and taking wickets is all that matters, something Rashid does better than the other spinners.


But run rate becomes important when you struggle to take wickets. Not an issue at home, but it certainly is when England tour.

Plus stopping batsmen scoring, or at least making it difficult, builds pressure and often leads to mistakes / rash shots and gifted wickets (something else England have become familiar with recently).


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:30 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't understand why so much negativity is aimed towards Rashid when he's comprehensively outbowled Ali, seems like people made their minds up some time ago.

He leaks runs. A key part of taking wickets for any team is to restrict the run rate and Rashid just concedes too many runs. Heck even Dawson has more control.

Run rate is over rated and taking wickets is all that matters, something Rashid does better than the other spinners.

No I don't think it is over-rated. It is an adage Kohli puts a lot of stock in and it has served his team well and even today when England throttled the scoring wickets came in the afternoon.
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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:35 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't understand why so much negativity is aimed towards Rashid when he's comprehensively outbowled Ali, seems like people made their minds up some time ago.

He leaks runs. A key part of taking wickets for any team is to restrict the run rate and Rashid just concedes too many runs. Heck even Dawson has more control.

Run rate is over rated and taking wickets is all that matters, something Rashid does better than the other spinners.

Not really. He has done so on this tour ; but there isn't much difference between him and Moeen overall , in terms of strike rate.

Not enough , in my book , to outweigh the other factors ...and restraining the runs is definitely an important part of the game .

As I say , I'm not suggesting he isn't worth his place in India : but back home , where England will live or die on the quality of their seam attack , he needs to do a lot more to oust Moeen as the sole spinner.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:36 am

So, at close of play India are 86 behind with 6 wickets in hand.

Still thinking they will end up with a lead of 100-150. England will muster no more than 250-300 in their 2nd innings. India will either chase easily, time permitting, or secure a comfortable draw.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:36 am

It's a cliche nothing more, Brett Lee was an expensive bowler but took wickets whereas Giles wasn't and didn't, isolated example but it's just something that fans say with no basis.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:37 am

alfie wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't understand why so much negativity is aimed towards Rashid when he's comprehensively outbowled Ali, seems like people made their minds up some time ago.

He leaks runs. A key part of taking wickets for any team is to restrict the run rate and Rashid just concedes too many runs. Heck even Dawson has more control.

Run rate is over rated and taking wickets is all that matters, something Rashid does better than the other spinners.

Not really. He has done so on this tour ; but there isn't much difference between him and Moeen overall , in terms of strike rate.

Not enough , in my book , to outweigh the other factors ...and restraining the runs is definitely an important part of the game .  

As I say , I'm not suggesting he isn't worth his place in India  : but back home , where England will live or die on the quality of their seam attack , he needs to do a lot more to oust Moeen as the sole spinner.

The overall record doesn't matter either, it's about the here and now.

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Post by alfie on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:43 am

We will have to agree to disagree on this , Hammersmith.

As to this game : India will have that lead of 100 before tea tomorrow at this rate. (Run rate was higher than Cook will have wanted today. Just saying Whistle )

If the pitch stays like this England should then be able to bat out for a draw . But I wouldn't put money on it : second innings collapses are becoming too much of a habit.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:47 am

alfie wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't understand why so much negativity is aimed towards Rashid when he's comprehensively outbowled Ali, seems like people made their minds up some time ago.

He leaks runs. A key part of taking wickets for any team is to restrict the run rate and Rashid just concedes too many runs. Heck even Dawson has more control.

Run rate is over rated and taking wickets is all that matters, something Rashid does better than the other spinners.

Not really. He has done so on this tour ; but there isn't much difference between him and Moeen overall , in terms of strike rate.

Not enough , in my book , to outweigh the other factors ...and restraining the runs is definitely an important part of the game .  

As I say , I'm not suggesting he isn't worth his place in India  : but back home , where England will live or die on the quality of their seam attack , he needs to do a lot more to oust Moeen as the sole spinner.

As I have said before, if I may add to what alfie says, the difference (test bowling record-wise) between them is minimal but the difference that both offer with the bat is quite substantial.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 11:55 am

At the start of this game Rashid at 23 wickets at 34 a piece compared to Ali's 10 at 55.5 a piece, suggest that the difference between them bowling wise is quite substantial, cricket fans seem unable to look past cricinfo averages.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 12:04 pm

Well the road maps tomorrow differ in probability obviously but England must look for a tumbling of wickets tomorrow morning reducing India to around 420 for 8 at lunch and bowling them out by mid-afternoon for around 450. Reach tea on around 75 for 1 (leading by around 100) and piling on the runs to close on around 220 for 4. Leaving them to have a mad thrash on the final day for another before pressing for the win.

India will look to bat through until lunch reaching around 430 for 6. In the afternoon forging into the lead to reach tea on around 525 for 8 and being bowled out an hour into the final session for 570. They'd then hope to get an early wicket leaving England around 25 for 1 at close still 75 runs adrift.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 12:05 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:At the start of this game Rashid at 23 wickets at 34 a piece compared to Ali's 10 at 55.5 a piece, suggest that the difference between them bowling wise is quite substantial, cricket fans seem unable to look past cricinfo averages.

Test cricket is played not only in the sub-continent so you need to factor in TOTAL test career stats. After all Rashid has to be judged (like Ali) on all surfaces he will bowl on.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 12:08 pm

You don't factor in total test career stats at all, it's an incredibly lazy way of evaluating somebodies worth and is utterly meaningless; Ballances overall record doesn't mean a jot at the moment.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 12:10 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You don't factor in total test career stats at all, it's an incredibly lazy way of evaluating somebodies worth and is utterly meaningless; Ballances overall record doesn't mean a jot at the moment.

Of course you do. If you intend using Rashid as your sole spin bowler (which is generally the case in English conditions) then how he has bowled in English conditions is absolutely everything.

Just to add that I am not purporting Ali as a wondrous spinner (far from it) just that when called upon to tie up an end he throws in far less rubbish than Rashid. Rubbish balls relieve any build up of pressure on batsmen and is a major bug bear of a fielding team.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 12:27 pm

Another false cliche there Craig.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 2:53 pm

The fairest like for like and most relevant is recent ames played together.
Rashids figures are less poor.

Moeen hast been effective in any conditions for 18 moths + now.

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 18 Dec 2016, 7:52 pm

Vijay, Rahul, kohli, parthiv, jadeja, shami, Nair and Jayant have their career highest scores this series.....india's motivation level has bern monumental.

An India defeat from here is not impossible but highly unlikely.
England defeat is not impossible, and low probability yet more likely than an Indian defeat.

An interesting day of test cricket tomm....purely because inspite of the dead pitch all 3 result are still possible

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 6:40 am

72 runs for India and only a wicket .
Pitch is beginning to do a bit now.

A lead of a 100 runs will put India in a position to exert pressure on Eng
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 7:07 am

As much as I despaired at things coming to the point where Dawson got a test cap at least he's managed to keep a level of control that the other 4 spinners have failed to do all winter.

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Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 7:20 am

Controversial maybe, but can anyone else see dawson taking the main spinner position this summer? In terms of batting he is probably somewhere between Ali and Rashid. He won't bowl a team out, but he seems to have more control than either Ali or Rashid, which to be honest is what we require from a spinner playing with four seamers in english conditions. From this game it would appear cook has more faith in him than the two senior spinners. Could be a better batting Giles mark 2. For me Ali will need to start justifying a top 5 batting spot if he wants to stay in the team longterm.

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 7:36 am

Dawson certainly did a good job of containment ; but it only brought one wicket - and India have been able to scoot away after lunch .

This is looking very like the previous match :I fear it may bring the same result as I wonder if England will have anything left mentally to bat out tomorrow. If India reach something like 680 this evening and leave England a nasty little session to bat it may well bring a wicket or two due merely to tiredness...and you'd imagine Ashwin and Jadeja will simply be too much on the last day.
Have to give India credit for the way they have ground England down : haven't overdone the aggression , confident they could gain a big lead as they did last time ... It is a sound method to use against an England team who seem to bat much worse once they are placed in a situation in which they no longer have any chance of winning. The old time teams might have quite relished a rearguard action to secure a draw on what is still a good pitch ; but I don't think this team has the capacity to do so.
Hope I'm wrong but I can only see this going one way.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 7:56 am

LivinginItaly wrote:Controversial maybe, but can anyone else see dawson taking the main spinner position this summer? In terms of batting he is probably somewhere between Ali and Rashid. He won't bowl a team out, but he seems to have more control than either Ali or Rashid,  which to be honest is what we require from a spinner playing with four seamers in english conditions.  From this game it would appear cook has more faith in him than the two senior spinners. Could be a better batting Giles mark 2. For me Ali will need to start justifying a top 5 batting spot if he wants to stay in the team longterm.

I dont really see him as having the same wicket taking threat as Giles, and hes not even the Lord of Madrid let alone King of Spain. More controversial statement; Giles wasnt actually that good....people just wet themsleves over because of the years of utter mediocrity and turd that had gone before him ( see Ian Salisbury) and that his emergence came along side wider resurgence in the team.
Hes not that cheap, and certainly not a wicket taking threat. Is he a player whos likely to devleop into a significantly better bowler? Well hes not that old but certainly a mature county pro now.
If it were a straight choice Id take Moeen for all his failings as a batsman and a maybe bowler over Dawson.

Rashid and Leach are the two that have the potential to be genuine wicket taking threats though, if England are serious about wanting to win games then thats what they need in the side. The control Dawson is bringing (an lets not over egg it, they are scoring off him) is useful for playing for the draw, but nearing 40 overs for 1 wicket says England gave up trying to win this game a long time ago.

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Post by VTR on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 8:17 am

I don't think anyone ever rated Giles as a bowler - I'd actually say he was a better bowler than often given credit for. What he was though I though was a good solid cricketer in all three disciplines

Dawson as a holding spinner at home - a Paul Harris type selection. I could see it actually

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Post by VTR on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 8:21 am

As for this match - I don't see England have a huge incentive to save it so the second innings could get messy. Will be glad that the series is over as it's been pretty boring unless you are a fan of watching India inflate their averages

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 8:35 am

Just going back to yesterday's discussion about Rashid, his return is 1/109 off 25 and India are now 579/5 with a lead above 100. That for me is where the real assessment is made. Even if he comes back and ends up with, say, 4/130 off 30, the damage has already been done.

I'm not saying that Rashid has been particularly worse than any other bowler on this tour for the main reason that he hasn't. However, I don't go too overboard about the number of his wickets as too many have come long after they were needed and at too high a cost.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 8:42 am

So because Rashid hasnt done as well as we hoped we should pick the 4th choice spinner for the summer off the back of even worse figures?


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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 8:52 am

Pleased for Dawson (and our own man Jimbo) that he's at least got a wicket. Dawson was clearly the third choice spinner of those selected for this match (unlike when Batty and Ansari played with the latter bowling the 9th over once, I recall). I reckon Cook was hoping he would only have to bowl around 15 overs in the first innings with the bulk of the slow stuff being sent down by Rashid and Moeen. It hasn't turned out that way at all.

Dawson may not seem an obvious fit for the summer but someone who scores an unbeaten 60 odd on debut and bowls more than 40 overs in the preceding Test has to be at least worth some thought.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 8:52 am

Good Lord! Nair on the verge of a double century.

India could score 1,000 runs if there was sufficient time. Batting still looking embarrassingly easy.

Wonder if the hosts will declare any time soon to keep the match at least vaguely interesting, or if they will push on to 700-odd and look to break some batting records?
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Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:00 am

The problem though is how the captain, particularly if it is still cook, will use Rashid in the summer.

Giles was never viewed as anything other than a solid reliable pick. But what he did very well was complement the four pronged Pace attack. He knew the role being asked of him, and performed it well. I just think that England would have a Giles type of bowler rather than an attacking but expensive bowler.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:00 am

To be fair this game is making the case that England should just quit trying to play test cricket altogether. 119 overs of spin and 3 wickets is plain embaressing.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:02 am

alfie wrote:Dawson certainly did a good job of containment ; but it only brought one wicket - and India have been able to scoot away after lunch .

This is looking very like the previous match :I fear it may bring the same result as I wonder if England will have anything left mentally to bat out tomorrow.  If India reach something like 680 this evening and leave England a nasty little session to bat it may well bring a wicket or two due merely to tiredness...and you'd imagine Ashwin and Jadeja will simply be too much on the last day.
Have to give India credit for the way they have ground England down : haven't overdone the aggression , confident they could gain a big lead as they did last time ... It is a sound method to use against an England team who seem to bat much worse once they are placed in a situation in which they no longer have any chance of winning.  The old time teams might have quite relished a rearguard action to secure a draw on what is still a good pitch ; but I don't think this team has the capacity to do so.
Hope I'm wrong but I can only see this going one way.

Hi Alfie - you're normally more upbeat than me about England's chances but I haven't written us off yet. Awful lot though depending on how Cook and Jennings get on tonight and whether they can guide us to stumps. Do that and I feel even this India team will find it hard work to take 10 wickets tomorrow.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:05 am

LivinginItaly wrote:The problem though is how the captain, particularly if it is still cook, will use Rashid in the summer.

Giles was never viewed as anything other than a solid reliable pick. But what he did very well was complement the four pronged Pace attack. He knew the role being asked of him, and performed it well. I just think that England would have a Giles type of bowler rather than an attacking but expensive bowler.

That's easy for me. Rashid is nowhere near my England team.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:12 am

In terms of containement ...Jennings has been as cheap and Broad cheaper than Dawson. All of them cheaper than ALi and Rashid (and Root)

In terms of wickets the seamers have had a similar avergae and strike rate to the spinners.

Maybe theyve been under bowled.

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Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:14 am

guildfordbat wrote:
LivinginItaly wrote:The problem though is how the captain, particularly if it is still cook, will use Rashid in the summer.

Giles was never viewed as anything other than a solid reliable pick. But what he did very well was complement the four pronged Pace attack. He knew the role being asked of him, and performed it well. I just think that England would have a Giles type of bowler rather than an attacking but expensive bowler.

That's easy for me. Rashid is nowhere near my England team.

same for me. But then the question is who?

Ali - as a batsman who can bowl? Not consistent enough for the top 5
- as a front line bowler? Takes wickets but is too expensive and offers little control.
- all rounder who sometimes contributes with the bat and sometimes with the ball? Is it enough for a front line spinner in England? Maybe in England yes.

A.n. Other? Rashid, Ansari, dawson, leach (the latest flavour of the month until he actually plays a game)

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:18 am

LiI - my main line of attack on home soil would be 4 seamers plus, to begin with at least, Moeen. If Dawson can also force his way in there at outset mainly on account of his batting, that's a bonus.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:23 am

No surprise the England spinners have bowled much more poorly since Saqlain went home from his consultancy role. We have a full time seam bowling coach, but not a full time spin bowling one, which I think tells you all you need to know about how seriously we take developing spinners
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Post by KP_fan on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:23 am

From.how the.game stands now, India 115 in lead 30 overs to go today....2 see batsman, jadeja the big hitter to follow...ind will lead by 220 maybe 250 by end of day...will declare
An Innings defeat on card for England tomm
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