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Post by alfie on Thu 08 Dec 2016, 9:44 am

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway Smile

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Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:34 am

guildfordbat wrote:LiI - my main line of attack on home soil would be 4 seamers plus, to begin with at least, Moeen. If Dawson can also force his way in there at outset mainly on account of his batting, that's a bonus.

yes I can see your point of view, and up till now the selectors have had a similar strategy. I would be fairly happy with this strategy as long as Ali bats in the lower order, freeing up a slot at 5 (who fills that space is another conundrum).

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 9:54 am

Q)-->What is common to Cook & Butler Shocked

A)--> Inspite of not wearing WK gloves...they haven't had a bowl yet Very Happy
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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:01 am

KP_fan wrote:Q)-->What is common to Cook & Butler Shocked

A)--> Inspite of not wearing WK gloves...they haven't had a bowl yet Very Happy


Well that might be one way to speed up the declaration Wink
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Post by James100 on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:01 am

LivinginItaly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:LiI - my main line of attack on home soil would be 4 seamers plus, to begin with at least, Moeen. If Dawson can also force his way in there at outset mainly on account of his batting, that's a bonus.

yes I can see your point of view, and up till now the selectors have had a similar strategy. I would be fairly happy with this strategy as long as Ali bats in the lower order, freeing up a slot at 5 (who fills that space is another conundrum).

Would something like this be what you'd both be looking at?

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Ali
Foakes
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

Though I'd rather have Rashid than Ali purely as a spinner—and I don't think batting ability at number 8 should come into things too much—if Moeen's batting allowed a specialist keeper I think that would probably be the best option. Specialist batters to 5, a 6/7/8/9 that is probably better than any other in worlds cricket, four seamers and Moeen playing as an all-rounder.

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:10 am

guildfordbat wrote:Just going back to yesterday's discussion about Rashid, his return is 1/109 off 25 and India are now 579/5 with a lead above 100. That for me is where the real assessment is made. Even if he comes back and ends up with, say, 4/130 off 30, the damage has already been done.

I'm not saying that Rashid has been particularly worse than any other bowler on this tour for the main reason that he hasn't. However, I don't go too overboard about the number of his wickets as too many have come long after they were needed and at too high a cost.

This is a point I've made before.  These pitches are pretty dead - but one of the attractions of picking a (sometimes expensive) wrist spinner is that they are supposed to get people out on them before it is too late. Not every time maybe : facing some good players in their home conditions.  But sometimes- and Rashid , despite decent overall figures , just hasn't done that.
Neither has anyone else of course ; but the others are either pace bowlers or batting all rounders : they aren't trying to claim a place as a wicket taking spinner alone.

Like guildford I'm not saying he's rubbish .  Just not sure he has enough upside for England to shoehorn him into the team outside Asia , with a consequent radical change to their game plan.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:14 am

James100 wrote:
LivinginItaly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:LiI - my main line of attack on home soil would be 4 seamers plus, to begin with at least, Moeen. If Dawson can also force his way in there at outset mainly on account of his batting, that's a bonus.

yes I can see your point of view, and up till now the selectors have had a similar strategy. I would be fairly happy with this strategy as long as Ali bats in the lower order, freeing up a slot at 5 (who fills that space is another conundrum).

Would something like this be what you'd both be looking at?

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Ali
Foakes
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

Though I'd rather have Rashid than Ali purely as a spinner—and I don't think batting ability at number 8 should come into things too much—if Moeen's batting allowed a specialist keeper I think that would probably be the best option. Specialist batters to 5, a 6/7/8/9 that is probably better than any other in worlds cricket, four seamers and Moeen playing as an all-rounder.

LiI - yes, pretty much although (and this is in spite of me being a fan of Foakes) I would be inclined to continue with Bairstow keeping and maybe him dropping down to 6. If there is such a creature, bring a new pure batsman in at number 5. Bairstow has improved immensely over the last year with the gloves and I'm not sure taking them off him now is the right timing. It almost hints at - we haven't got enough decent batsmen available, so we'll make selection less tricky by doing away with one of the batting places and bring in a good keeper instead!

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:16 am

I would bring in Foakes myself Guildford, not picking a far superior keeper harks back to the 90's with Russell and Stewart, he's not a bat batsmen anyway.

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Post by VTR on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:17 am

There's no way Rashid will play outside of Asia after this series - he doesn't trouble good players on flat pitches, and doesn't keep it tight. I could see Moeen falling out of favour for the latter reason, though he may still make the team for his batting - 4 centuries in a year isn't a bad return

I really could see England looking for an economical option to allow rotation of the seamers. That way opposition batsmen are going to have a very hard time over here

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Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:18 am

For me there are several key decisions that need to be taken between now and the first test of the summer. My first decision would be about the role of bairstow (number 5, or wkt and number 7). I think the choices for the remaining positions are heavily influenced by the role of bairstow, and hence which gaps / roles still need to be filled (specialist bat, wkt, spinning allrounder, pure spinner etc)

My team would be

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
........ (next cab off the rank / whichever prospect starts the season well)
stokes
........ (prob bairstow wkt)
........ (ali - for lack of an alternative)
woakes
Broad
Anderson


If foakes impresses with the lions, and starts the season well (keeping and batting) then he could play at 7 and bairstow at 5.

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Post by James100 on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:23 am

Hi Guildford - I take your point about hurting Bairstow's confidence just as he's improving, and Bairstow is certainly much improved since the South Africa and Sri Lanka series. For me though, taking the gloves off him would be a case of recognising that he should have never had them in the first place. Even now, he lets off at least one opposition player each innings and, especially bearing in mind the much discussed spinner problem, we need a keeper who will take every chance available (or close to).

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Post by James100 on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:25 am

It's past the point that it matters in this game, but worth noting that Bairstow missed another stumping chance a couple of overs ago.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:30 am

I am getting a bit greedy now....want a triple century for Nair and lead of 300 by end of day.
CI shows 16 overs to go
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:32 am

Theres two choices with Bairstow.

Reconise that he is the third best proven batsman they have available and play him in the top 5. Makes the best of that and allow him to flourish further by taking the gloves off him. Select a keeper on keeping ability and ask them to concentrate on keeping.

Or select him as a keeper and bat him down the order. Keep pretending that Mooen and Stokes are top 6 bats, but suggest to them that occassional centuries only count of they are over 150 (*cough*) . Find another specialist bat who can average well over 40, like that guy that doesnt exist for example. (Or pick Dawson at 7 and ask him to bowl 50 overs in a day for lols. )

India are just taking the pee now.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:33 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would bring in Foakes myself Guildford, not picking a far superior keeper harks back to the 90's with Russell and Stewart, he's not a bat batsmen anyway.

Hammersmith - I wouldn't have a problem if that's the way they went. I'm generally in favour of selecting the superior keeper - my view on here when Prior packed up was to go back to Chris Read for that reason. I just feel that so much investment has been put into Bairstow's keeping and he's come on so much with the gloves that now isn't the right time. Not going to die in a ditch over it though - Foakes is a top notch keeper and, as you say, at least a useful bat.

One question though. LiI and others talk about Bairstow batting (but not keeping) at 5 or batting and keeping at 7. I get batting (but not keeping) at 5. However, I don't see why he couldn't do both at 6 - that doesn't seem to get considered (not much, anyway). May not be relevant but I know that when Steve Davies was keeping at Surrey, his favourite batting spot was number 6.

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:37 am

LivinginItaly wrote:For me there are several key decisions that need to be taken between now and the first test of the summer. My first decision would be about the role of bairstow (number 5, or wkt and number 7). I think the choices for the remaining positions are heavily influenced by the role of bairstow, and hence which gaps / roles still need to be filled (specialist bat, wkt, spinning allrounder, pure spinner etc)

My team would be

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
........  (next cab off the rank / whichever prospect starts the season well)
stokes
........   (prob bairstow wkt)
........   (ali - for lack of an alternative)
woakes
Broad
Anderson


If foakes impresses with the lions, and starts the season well (keeping and batting) then he could play at 7 and bairstow at 5.

That is my team too - at least to start with. Like guildford I don't think this would be a good time to change keepers. Dawson could offer a Moeen alternative ...but you'd think Ali's batting alone gives him the spot for now.
Identity of number five is the main problem ...and perhaps some questions over Jennings.

Whatever they do , I hope they don't overreact to the way this tour has gone downhill and start sacking and pillaging to appease the mob. They've been slaughtered ; but these conditions aren't on offer again in the near or medium future. Take the lessons and file them away for later ; but start again at home without letting this baggage destroy the squad.

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Post by KO-KING on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:41 am

Going from an advert of test cricket from bangladesh to this, boring game

And on top of that it's an embarrassing showinga


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Post by James100 on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:41 am

Guildford - I think most are assuming Stokes at 6. He doesn't seem suited to the top five and he seems more affected by the psychology of batting positions than most. Bat him at 7 and he'll bat like a number 7 and all that—iirc he spent a few tests at 8 and could hardly buy a run.

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:49 am

James100 wrote:Guildford - I think most are assuming Stokes at 6. He doesn't seem suited to the top five and he seems more affected by the psychology of batting positions than most. Bat him at 7 and he'll bat like a number 7 and all that—iirc he spent a few tests at 8 and could hardly buy a run.

Not sure it would affect him the same way now , though , James . Think he has matured a bit since then.

Personally I feel if Bairstow continues keeping he should bat at seven as that combination seemed to suit both of them. Obviously if Foakes were to take over YJB would move up...and then you can choose between Moeen and Stokes for six and seven.

A way off yet . But at least discussing it serves to distract from the annihilation being visited on the poor players at the moment Smile

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:51 am

James - I wouldn't rule out Stokes at 7 for 'my team'.

Numbers 6 to 11 then might be:
Bairstow
Stokes
Moeen
Woakes
Broad
Anderson.

That would seem to be a strong middle and late order. Admittedly, it does assume the bowlers deliver and that we don't have two tins of custard (copyright Gooseberry Sarcasm 2016 Unlimited) in the top five! Very Happy

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:54 am

No declaration yet. The thought occurs : India have won the series already ; pitch is dead flat ...maybe Kohli will decide to let Karun Nair take Lara's record instead Smile

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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:57 am

KP_fan wrote:I am getting a bit greedy now....want a triple century for Nair and lead of 300 by end of day.
CI shows 16  overs to go

Looks like your wish will be granted - on both counts. India obviously don't want to bat again. Any more than 300 though is just a waste as there is no way England will even try to chase that.
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Post by VTR on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 10:57 am

This pitch is a disgrace - there's no place in cricket for cr@p like this. Probably the worst Test match for some time - beyond boring

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:01 am

Two wickets for Dawson and Jimbo is dancing in the streets of Hampshire! Very Happy

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:02 am

I'm not sure why people are so keen to take the gloves off Bairstow now - he's kept really damn well for the past year now, that even bringing in a "specialist" doesn't really make much difference. Again this would be low on my list of issues for England.

Moeen literally has the joint most centuries in the world in 2016. He ain't going nowhere for a while
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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:02 am

A wicket for Dawson ! He probably won't have it framed...

Good catch by Ball though.

Despite my gloomy predictions for tomorrow this pitch is still playing so well that you'd think if ever England are to bat out a day in comfort it would be here.
Just fear they are too shattered by now...

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Post by VTR on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:03 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'm not sure why people are so keen to take the gloves off Bairstow now - he's kept really damn well for the past year now, that even bringing in a "specialist" doesn't really make much difference. Again this would be low on my list of issues for England.

Moeen literally has the joint most centuries in the world in 2016. He ain't going nowhere for a while

I agree - people also forget the personal aspect of it for him - they'd have to wrestle those gloves off him

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:07 am

Stats people - is Cook's drop of Nair the most expensive in test history?
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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:07 am

alfie wrote:A wicket for Dawson !  He probably won't have it framed...

Good catch by Ball though.

Despite my gloomy predictions for tomorrow this pitch is still playing so well that you'd think if ever England are to bat out a day in comfort it would be here.
Just fear they are too shattered by now...

Yup. England will be mentally and physically broken by now. Not to mention the fact India's spinners will get more out of the pitch than our bowlers have.

Loss of focus and general will to win will make it a fraught final day at best...possibly a total implosion and a 4-0 series win for the hosts.
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Post by VTR on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:10 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Stats people - is Cook's drop of Nair the most expensive in test history?

I think Gooch was dropped on 14 or something and went on to make a triple. In Lara's 500, I am sure he was dropped early as well

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:10 am

alfie wrote:A wicket for Dawson !  He probably won't have it framed...

Good catch by Ball though.

Despite my gloomy predictions for tomorrow this pitch is still playing so well that you'd think if ever England are to bat out a day in comfort it would be here.
Just fear they are too shattered by now...

Alfie - following up my earlier post, an awful lot resting on the remaining 5 overs tonight. Lose a wicket and we'll be terribly deflated. See it out to stumps and that'll give us a few crumbs of comfort for tomorrow on what should still be a batsman's track.

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:11 am

Finally it ends ...Great day for the young man Karun Nair getting a 300 - and fast. Have to applaud clap
Even if it feels a little like Hayden smashing Zimbabwe around when he - briefly - acquired the record score Smile

Now all England have to do is bat for 100 overs : considering just 17 wickets have fallen in 350 or so that ought not be impossible...

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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:12 am

300 up for Karun - a mighty innings that will probably earn him MOTM. clap Great display of physical effort and concentration - even if it was on a dead pitch against buffet bowling.

And with that India finally declare on 759-7 with a lead of 282.

Doubt England will even try to chase that. You have to think their only goal will be not to lose 11 wickets before close of play tomorrow.
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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:21 am

dyrewolfe wrote:300 up for Karun - a mighty innings that will probably earn him MOTM. clap Great display of physical effort and concentration - even if it was on a dead pitch against buffet bowling.

And with that India finally declare on 759-7 with a lead of 282.

Doubt England will even try to chase that. You have to think their only goal will be not to lose 11 wickets before close of play tomorrow.

If they don't implode I'd imagine they'd try to score normally ...which would have the merit of probably getting them to safety a little before close of play. India will of course attack so runs could come reasonably freely and 282 could be gathered in midway through the last session ...

That's if they don't just fold up in a heap. Which must be a strong chance...

That extra wicket you're giving them might be handy Smile

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:24 am

Last 20 overs India got 140 runs....
Taking the overall innings rate to 4RPO...whopping considering ind scored more than 750

The last session was such is this was a boxing match .....either referee would have declared a K.O
Or...the coach would have thrown the towel in

Does Eng have the mental resolve to survive these 95 overs
I would put defeat as a 90% chance

Cook has to bat through for the 10% scenario to occur
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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:32 am

alfie wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:300 up for Karun - a mighty innings that will probably earn him MOTM. clap Great display of physical effort and concentration - even if it was on a dead pitch against buffet bowling.

And with that India finally declare on 759-7 with a lead of 282.

Doubt England will even try to chase that. You have to think their only goal will be not to lose 11 wickets before close of play tomorrow.

If they don't implode I'd imagine they'd try to score normally ...which would have the merit of probably getting them to safety a little before close of play.  India will of course attack so runs could come reasonably freely and 282 could be gathered in midway through the last session ...

That's if they don't just fold up in a heap.  Which must be a strong chance...

That extra wicket you're giving them might be handy Smile


I was thinking they might need it! Wink

Oy! All this Indian batting has turned my brain to mush... Sad
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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:34 am

That was something at least to get through those 5 overs unscathed. I'm sticking with the draw but we certainly haven't made it easy.

Important day tomorrow for Jennings.

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:35 am

First (baby) step taken safely.

I give England a bit better than the 10% chance KP_f is offering ; the pitch really does appear to be still free of gremlins. First session may be the key...the Indian spinners will certainly apply pressure throughout ; but a good first couple of hours might enable the (theoretically deep) batting lineup to handle them.

Neither 320/5 nor 180 all out would surprise me.

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:37 am

guildfordbat wrote:That was something at least to get through those 5 overs unscathed. I'm sticking with the draw but we certainly haven't made it easy.

Important day tomorrow for Jennings.

Good point ! Personal goals help...and despite the debut 100 he's not quite nailed on for the summer yet. A big hand tomorrow would be wonderful for him.

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Post by jimbohammers on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:38 am

I am biased but i thought Dawson done well on debut. 66 not out and 2 wickets at 3 an over. (2nd least expensive bowler)

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Post by jimbohammers on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:40 am

guildfordbat wrote:Two wickets for Dawson and Jimbo is dancing in the streets of Hampshire! Very Happy

laughing Whistle

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:42 am

Agree with that jimbo .

Batted well and was clearly their best spinner : quite apart from having the best figures , he actually forced the batsmen to take chances to attack him , rather than just milking easy runs. Hence he was struck for a few sixes , but also bowled maidens.

Not sure whether he will get a look in back at home ; but he didn't do himself any harm.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 12:03 pm

alfie wrote:Agree with that jimbo .

Batted well and was clearly their best spinner : quite apart from having the best figures , he actually forced the batsmen to take chances to attack him , rather than just milking easy runs.  Hence he was struck for a few sixes , but also bowled maidens.

Not sure whether he will get a look in back at home ; but he didn't do himself any harm.

Dawson may not make the eleven for the summer's first Test but will surely have to at least be under consideration. 66 not out and a couple of wickets on debut can't be totally ignored. Nor should they. Would be pretty staggering figures for a one cap wonder! Shocked

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Post by alfie on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 12:21 pm

Looking back over that scorecard...

Oh dear . Nearly 7 per over after tea. Shows what you can do when the bowling side has basically exhausted every trick they have and are pretty much going through the motions. Highest score England have ever conceded which is something no one really wants on their cv. Makes Broads and Dawson's figures quite impressive in amongst the carnage.

As to tomorrow there are two ways to approach it. The better one is surely to say OK , draw a line , future starts here ...we bat properly , all day , and make them wish they'd declared at tea instead of looking for records / seeking to bury us.

Can they do that ? Test will be mental firstly (they're all physically pretty fit) and its important they don't carry the embarrassment of that last session around in their heads...get a draw and it will be remembered only as a statistical oddity.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 12:28 pm

It's a joke of a pitch really as the previous ones have been.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 12:49 pm

Hammersmith - India are entitled to say though that those pitches haven't prevented them from taking 60 wickets in three of the previous Tests. They'll obviously be hoping to make it 80 out of four tomorrow.

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Post by SimonofSurrey on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 1:31 pm

Ok, we get it. India are very very good on familiar home pitches*, with bat and ball. Perhaps the measure of how badly or less badly England fared will be to see what happens when Oz visit India in a couple of months' time and play four Tests: good luck with that. And, exceptionally well as India have played this series, they will be approaching consideration of 'great' only once they have racked up 550-600+ and then won comfortably on several occasions in England and/or Oz and /or S Africa.

PS: Foakes for England. He could not have done more in the recent Lions' game v Afghanistan: neat keeping, including two smart stumpings near the end of the match, and well over 150 runs for once out on a pitch where all others struggled at least once against spin. Bairstow would be a useful back up keeper, Buttler is a freakishly gifted one day player but no Test player.

(*'pitches' is key here = the weather in India is a given. What makes Tests in England perhaps more interesting, no matter who they play, is that changes in the weather during a Test can make the same surface play very differently on different days.)

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Post by VTR on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 1:42 pm

VTR wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Stats people - is Cook's drop of Nair the most expensive in test history?

I think Gooch was dropped on 14 or something and went on to make a triple. In Lara's 500, I am sure he was dropped early as well

Just to update this:

Lara was dropped on 18 and tightened up after that ending on 501* - cost of 483 runs!
Gooch dropped on 36 and went on to 333 - cost of 297 runs
Nair dropped on 34, went on to 303* - cost of 269 runs

I don't think it's sticking my neck out too much to say the first one is the all-time record and second the Test record

Another one for the ages is this: should Lara have been out for 0 to Harmison when making his 400?

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 2:53 pm

Are we really trying to sustain the argument that figures of 129/2 are remarkable? Or "not bob"
Surely thats reserved for Moeens strike rate.

We cant entirely blame the pitch/weather...england have been out classed with bat and ball the last 4 tests, and massively so in these last two.

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Post by Maxi Sanchez on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 2:57 pm

Made my day today seeing the hopeless England bowlers getting torn apart by an Indian rookie. All this nonsense about 'poor pitches' what games you lot been watching? When Australia(2013) South Africa(2015) and New Zealand(2016) toured the pitches where sandpits. These pitches have been perfectly fair. Not to dissimilar to the pitches from England's last tour in 2012. England's spinners are truly awful. And the medium Pacers haven't a clue how to bowl without swing. All good and well being one dimensional just don't blame the opposition for your team's short comings.

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Post by VTR on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 3:08 pm

These pitches are nothing like those in 2012 - they were generally turning pitches - I don't remember too many 500 plays 600 matches in that series, other than the final Test which was truly one of the worst Test matches of all time

England's bowlers all hopeless - really? Broad is one of the best bowlers in the world

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