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Eng in India

Post by alfie on Thu 08 Dec 2016, 9:44 am

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway Smile

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:35 am

alfie wrote:

Playing shots was sensible.  

Some yes. But many were absolutely horrendous decisons. Stokes tried a proper agricultural slog at one point and completley missed the ball. It wasnt even an attempt at a proper shot.

Play the percentages, know your abilities. Moeen habitually gets out playing shots hes not good enough to execute often enough.

Its especially bad to have collapsed so late, they had seen off the majority of the overs before the silly shots really started, and a number of close calls then wickets didnt stop it. Its not like its the first time this has happened in thsi series either. Someone needs to seriosuly look at why these decisions are being made; is it Cook/Baysliss telling them to do it or is it the players mental fragility? Either way it has to change.

Only yesterday people were decrying this pitch as an absolute road. All India had to do was put some close catchers in, bowl near the stumps, and watch England get themselves out. Jadeja must be laughing.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:37 am

guildfordbat wrote:Let the abuse really begin ....

I'm not massively bothered by today 3-0, 4-0, what's the difference. Yes it was poor but this isn't a lineup that will ever bat out a draw

Just glad to get it out of the way really, the setup in England isn't geared to compete on these tours and that is actually going to get worse before it gets better with the shoehorning of more T20 into the summer months. I am pretty sure most on here called 5-0 before the series and it wasn't really much better than that - an absolute hammering

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Re: Eng in India

Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:39 am

alfie wrote:Oh come on Wolfe ...no amount of "planning" would have produced a replacement for Swann.  Nearly as difficult for England as Australia replacing Warne. The best they could hope for was a reasonable second or third best - more goose than Swann , perhaps.
You can fairly say that settling on Moeen as the lead spinner for so long was inviting trouble when traveling to these parts ; but what would you have had them do ?  Ignore the Ashes , SA tours etc and prioritize Indian tours ?   They introduced Rashid ,  tried Ansari... Some problems just don't have ready answers...

I don't condemn the bowlers ; but the 4-0 defeat really is mainly down to their inability to get India out under 400 in any of the matches.  Batting has been fallible at times ; but its the bowling that just hasn't turned up.

How long ago was it that Swann retired?

Even before then I would have though that it should have been someone's responsibility in the hierarchy, to identify potential replacements and develop them (something called succession planning). Maybe it takes longer than I realise to develop good specialist spinners - as opposed to players who can bat and bowl a bit...maybe I am being naive.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one player in the whole country who could be at least nearly as good as Swann was.

I agree its hard to condemn our bowlers when they are simply the best we have right now, but the results have often been down to our inability to bowl either pace or spin in these conditions...nearly as often as our inability to bat. With better bowling, at least, we could have made it a close contest.

With home conditions the fragility of our batting has often been masked / saved by good bowling displays. Here it has been exposed horribly.

Last few test series have basically shown England are pretty inept all round, away from home.


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Eng in India

Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:45 am

Nice stat on the BBC live text.

England have set a new record for a team making a good 1st innings total and still losing by an innings.

Andrew Samson wrote:
Highest total by a team losing by an inns:
477 ENG v IND Chennai 2016
463 WI v IND Kolkata 2011
459 IND v SA Centurion 2010
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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:46 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
alfie wrote:Oh come on Wolfe ...no amount of "planning" would have produced a replacement for Swann.  Nearly as difficult for England as Australia replacing Warne. The best they could hope for was a reasonable second or third best - more goose than Swann , perhaps.
You can fairly say that settling on Moeen as the lead spinner for so long was inviting trouble when traveling to these parts ; but what would you have had them do ?  Ignore the Ashes , SA tours etc and prioritize Indian tours ?   They introduced Rashid ,  tried Ansari... Some problems just don't have ready answers...

I don't condemn the bowlers ; but the 4-0 defeat really is mainly down to their inability to get India out under 400 in any of the matches.  Batting has been fallible at times ; but its the bowling that just hasn't turned up.

How long ago was it that Swann retired?

Even before then I would have though that it should have been someone's responsibility in the hierarchy, to identify potential replacements and develop them (something called succession planning). Maybe it takes longer than I realise to develop good specialist spinners - as opposed to players who can bat and bowl a bit...maybe I am being naive.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one player in the whole country who could be at least nearly as good as Swann was.

I agree its hard to condemn our bowlers when they are simply the best we have right now, but the results have often been down to our inability to bowl either pace or seam in these conditions...nearly as often as our inability to bat. With better bowling, at least, we could have made it a close contest.

With home conditions the fragility of our batting has often been masked / saved by good bowling displays. Here it has been exposed horribly.

Last few test series have basically shown England are pretty inept all round, away from home.

True. The comforting thing is that so is everyone else Smile

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Re: Eng in India

Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:51 am

alfie wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
alfie wrote:Oh come on Wolfe ...no amount of "planning" would have produced a replacement for Swann.  Nearly as difficult for England as Australia replacing Warne. The best they could hope for was a reasonable second or third best - more goose than Swann , perhaps.
You can fairly say that settling on Moeen as the lead spinner for so long was inviting trouble when traveling to these parts ; but what would you have had them do ?  Ignore the Ashes , SA tours etc and prioritize Indian tours ?   They introduced Rashid ,  tried Ansari... Some problems just don't have ready answers...

I don't condemn the bowlers ; but the 4-0 defeat really is mainly down to their inability to get India out under 400 in any of the matches.  Batting has been fallible at times ; but its the bowling that just hasn't turned up.

How long ago was it that Swann retired?

Even before then I would have though that it should have been someone's responsibility in the hierarchy, to identify potential replacements and develop them (something called succession planning). Maybe it takes longer than I realise to develop good specialist spinners - as opposed to players who can bat and bowl a bit...maybe I am being naive.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one player in the whole country who could be at least nearly as good as Swann was.

I agree its hard to condemn our bowlers when they are simply the best we have right now, but the results have often been down to our inability to bowl either pace or seam in these conditions...nearly as often as our inability to bat. With better bowling, at least, we could have made it a close contest.

With home conditions the fragility of our batting has often been masked / saved by good bowling displays. Here it has been exposed horribly.

Last few test series have basically shown England are pretty inept all round, away from home.

True.  The comforting thing is that so is everyone else Smile


But surely not even being able to beat Bangladesh should be some source of concern? Also, if we've got ambitions to be the #1 test side we need to start being able to play away from home.

And in this series, its not just the fact we've lost...its the manner in which we've lost. The scale of some of these defeats is pretty desperate.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:56 am

VTR wrote:If anything good can come out of this - it really does expose the fallacy of playing three specialist batsman. We say long batting line up, the opposition says: we fancy this lot from 4 downwards

And all those bowling options result in a record score conceded and a 300 by a guy averaging 8 before. Shambolic from the selectors and Bayliss
I think this is a little harsh on the selectors. In the Summer and Bangladesh we had 5 specialist batsmen and three of them were generally so bad that numbers 6 and 7 were constantly having to rescue the situation from about 40/3. Moeen and Bairstow average 46 and 58 respectively this year, which is more than respectable to be batting 4 and 5. 

Of course, the ideal is that we have another top class batsman or two and perhaps Hameed and Jennings will provide at least one option. However, the awful form of Ballance and Vince limited options for this series. I actually think the team we went with was probably as sensible as we can currently manage.

That said, England players generally still give their wickets away stupidly. Root, as one of the most talented batsmen in the world, sets the tone and should be turning big scores into massive ones. Moeen seems to me ideally suited as a number 6 or 7 and we somehow need to unearth a top spinner. There are a lot of issues for England to address.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:01 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
alfie wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
alfie wrote:Oh come on Wolfe ...no amount of "planning" would have produced a replacement for Swann.  Nearly as difficult for England as Australia replacing Warne. The best they could hope for was a reasonable second or third best - more goose than Swann , perhaps.
You can fairly say that settling on Moeen as the lead spinner for so long was inviting trouble when traveling to these parts ; but what would you have had them do ?  Ignore the Ashes , SA tours etc and prioritize Indian tours ?   They introduced Rashid ,  tried Ansari... Some problems just don't have ready answers...

I don't condemn the bowlers ; but the 4-0 defeat really is mainly down to their inability to get India out under 400 in any of the matches.  Batting has been fallible at times ; but its the bowling that just hasn't turned up.

How long ago was it that Swann retired?

Even before then I would have though that it should have been someone's responsibility in the hierarchy, to identify potential replacements and develop them (something called succession planning). Maybe it takes longer than I realise to develop good specialist spinners - as opposed to players who can bat and bowl a bit...maybe I am being naive.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one player in the whole country who could be at least nearly as good as Swann was.

I agree its hard to condemn our bowlers when they are simply the best we have right now, but the results have often been down to our inability to bowl either pace or seam in these conditions...nearly as often as our inability to bat. With better bowling, at least, we could have made it a close contest.

With home conditions the fragility of our batting has often been masked / saved by good bowling displays. Here it has been exposed horribly.

Last few test series have basically shown England are pretty inept all round, away from home.

True.  The comforting thing is that so is everyone else Smile


But surely not even being able to beat Bangladesh should be some source of concern? Also, if we've got ambitions to be the #1 test side we need to start being able to play away from home.

And in this series, its not just the fact we've lost...its the manner in which we've lost. The scale of some of these defeats is pretty desperate.


What worries me most is that we have supposedly solved all englands problems with the players that were accidentlay unearthed along the way to the last two enourmous defeats.
With Jennings and Dawson in we are unbeateable giants of cricket when we get Hameeds inability to score singles back right.


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Re: Eng in India

Post by protea438 on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:02 am

alfie wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
alfie wrote:Oh come on Wolfe ...no amount of "planning" would have produced a replacement for Swann.  Nearly as difficult for England as Australia replacing Warne. The best they could hope for was a reasonable second or third best - more goose than Swann , perhaps.
You can fairly say that settling on Moeen as the lead spinner for so long was inviting trouble when traveling to these parts ; but what would you have had them do ?  Ignore the Ashes , SA tours etc and prioritize Indian tours ?   They introduced Rashid ,  tried Ansari... Some problems just don't have ready answers...

I don't condemn the bowlers ; but the 4-0 defeat really is mainly down to their inability to get India out under 400 in any of the matches.  Batting has been fallible at times ; but its the bowling that just hasn't turned up.

How long ago was it that Swann retired?

Even before then I would have though that it should have been someone's responsibility in the hierarchy, to identify potential replacements and develop them (something called succession planning). Maybe it takes longer than I realise to develop good specialist spinners - as opposed to players who can bat and bowl a bit...maybe I am being naive.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one player in the whole country who could be at least nearly as good as Swann was.

I agree its hard to condemn our bowlers when they are simply the best we have right now, but the results have often been down to our inability to bowl either pace or seam in these conditions...nearly as often as our inability to bat. With better bowling, at least, we could have made it a close contest.

With home conditions the fragility of our batting has often been masked / saved by good bowling displays. Here it has been exposed horribly.

Last few test series have basically shown England are pretty inept all round, away from home.

True.  The comforting thing is that so is everyone else Smile

Last time I checked Perth and Hobart arent in South Africa Smile

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:11 am

Exception for SA and Australia : they both seem to beat each other away but can't win the return home series Smile

But they're both useless in India anyway...

Nice to see a new SA fan on here : though I see you've been on for 4 years , protea ! Why so few posts ?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:15 am

I think it's less home and away split than seaming conditions vs spinning conditions split

Let's not forget how hopelessly inept India have been on the last two tours of England, as were Sri Lanka earlier this year. Pakistan did well but for some reason we were too scared to give them seaming pitches, which now looks a bit silly as NZ absolutely destroyed them

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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:20 am

alfie wrote:I'll leave the abuse to the press...

Will congratulate India , especially Jadeja today for some great cricket clap

England at least competed in most matches - until they cracked.  But crack they did , each time.   Quite a thing to score 477 and lose by an innings !

Yeah, my comment was more aimed at the press. Most here are rational and sensible. Even goose although he sometimes tries hard to disguise it. Wink

Poor showing in the final two sessions today. Well as Jadeja bowled, we gave away too many wickets too softly. That shouldn't have happened on what was still a good batting track and with a draw available through Kohli having made his declaration very late in the day.

I still think we're generally too forgiving about poor shots when batsmen are trying to do the right thing. They shouldn't be Test batsmen if they don't know the right thing to do whilst the number of poor shots has been too many!

That said, it's the bowling over the series that has really cost us. No one there there emerges with much credit at all.

Too many missed chances as well although probably highlighted as so many were expensive due to the bowlers' failures to create (many) further chances.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:20 am

Gooseberry wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
alfie wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
alfie wrote:Oh come on Wolfe ...no amount of "planning" would have produced a replacement for Swann.  Nearly as difficult for England as Australia replacing Warne. The best they could hope for was a reasonable second or third best - more goose than Swann , perhaps.
You can fairly say that settling on Moeen as the lead spinner for so long was inviting trouble when traveling to these parts ; but what would you have had them do ?  Ignore the Ashes , SA tours etc and prioritize Indian tours ?   They introduced Rashid ,  tried Ansari... Some problems just don't have ready answers...

I don't condemn the bowlers ; but the 4-0 defeat really is mainly down to their inability to get India out under 400 in any of the matches.  Batting has been fallible at times ; but its the bowling that just hasn't turned up.

How long ago was it that Swann retired?

Even before then I would have though that it should have been someone's responsibility in the hierarchy, to identify potential replacements and develop them (something called succession planning). Maybe it takes longer than I realise to develop good specialist spinners - as opposed to players who can bat and bowl a bit...maybe I am being naive.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one player in the whole country who could be at least nearly as good as Swann was.

I agree its hard to condemn our bowlers when they are simply the best we have right now, but the results have often been down to our inability to bowl either pace or seam in these conditions...nearly as often as our inability to bat. With better bowling, at least, we could have made it a close contest.

With home conditions the fragility of our batting has often been masked / saved by good bowling displays. Here it has been exposed horribly.

Last few test series have basically shown England are pretty inept all round, away from home.

True.  The comforting thing is that so is everyone else Smile


But surely not even being able to beat Bangladesh should be some source of concern? Also, if we've got ambitions to be the #1 test side we need to start being able to play away from home.

And in this series, its not just the fact we've lost...its the manner in which we've lost. The scale of some of these defeats is pretty desperate.


What worries me most is that we have supposedly solved all englands problems with the players that were accidentlay unearthed along the way to the last two enourmous defeats.
With Jennings and Dawson in we are unbeateable giants of cricket when we get Hameeds inability to score singles back right.


Heh. Well I can't say anything about Dawson as I've only seen his limited performances the last couple of matches.

I think its too early to say either way about Jennings and Hameed, but both have shown some promise and I think they deserve to be given a chance. England do desperately need more specialist batsmen higher up the order, instead of Moeen, Stokes and Bairstow.

We do also desperately need to start developing more good spinners, both to provide a decent main bowling attack overseas and to get our players used to playing against it (even if it is in home conditions).

Not sure how you can coach teams to play on sub-continent type pitches, but at least putting some warm-up games in the tour schedule should help.


As VTR said a while back, this whole series smacks of (or appears to be the culmination) of some gross negligence by the ECB and everyone else involved in the development of the England team. Failure to find and nurture new talent in time to fill gaps left by retiring players. Failure to manage tour schedules properly, to give players time to acclimatise. Failure to manage how the different forms are played, with personnel being shuffled between test, ODI and T20 sides.

This is just my two cents' worth, but I'd be very surprised if there are many players who can transition effectively between the different forms of the game (maybe ODI and T20, but test cricket is a very different beast).
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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:25 am

VTR wrote:I think it's less home and away split than seaming conditions vs spinning conditions split

Let's not forget how hopelessly inept India have been on the last two tours of England, as were Sri Lanka earlier this year. Pakistan did well but for some reason we were too scared to give them seaming pitches, which now looks a bit silly as NZ absolutely destroyed them

Australia in Sri Lanka earlier this year was hilarious too.

Think people are overreacting. We got thoroughly beat a much better team than us. It's what everyone expected. Also 7 tests in 8 weeks is a ridiculous schedule

Dyre - not sure why you seem to think it's easy to just produce and nurture a spinner to be the next swann - there's a reason players like him only come along once every decade or so.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:30 am

I can actually see what Dyre is saying - basically a failure to identify and nurture a lead spinner. Moeen has not been very good other than one series, which is fine as he is more of a batsman, but that's not a lead spinner.

Then Rashid is made lead spinner in ODIs (and does a good job) but is only wheeled out in Tests to play the best players in the world in their own conditions - pretty harsh and doesn't give the guy to build up any confidence

It's clear England aren't that bothered though - we'd rather have some runs and the odd wicket than any attempt to nurture a young talent

Going back a bit I am sure we all remember how good Vettori became for NZ - that's because he played no matter what and was invested in from an early age

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Re: Eng in India

Post by protea438 on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:47 am

alfie wrote:Exception for SA and Australia : they both seem to beat each other away but can't win the return home series Smile

But they're both useless in India anyway...

Nice to see a new SA fan on here : though I see you've been on for 4 years , protea ! Why so few posts ?

Yeah that stat regarding Austalia in SA is weird. Hopefully in 2018 we can change that Smile

Yeah I am not a huge forum user anymore. Maybe when SA tour England I will be on more

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Re: Eng in India

Post by alfie on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:55 am

The thing with Rashid , though , VTR , is that in ODI teams are after scoring six plus per over and going hard at the wrist spinner...and he bowls enough tricky deliveries that he will take wickets.
In Tests batsmen can wait for the bad ball - of which he bowls plenty. And perhaps more to the point he also allows far too many easy runs at no risk (rarely does he produce a maiden.)
I was initially pleased with his improvement on this trip ; but I feel he went backwards over the later matches - fatigue , mental as much as anything , probably a big factor. I'm not writing him off ; but he'd need to take a big step up to be considered as sole spinner : to apply more pressure to a new batsman , for example. I'd also like to see him bowl his googly a lot more.
Do you really want to see England drop Moeen and take on SA in the summer with four pace men and Rashid ? Would be a huge leap of faith !

Oddly , Rashid's best chance might be if Moeen were to be picked at five , with Stokes staying at six. They could then stay with six bowlers... Personally think it's an appalling idea but who knows what they might come up with given the recent indecisive selections...

I'd be sticking with Moeen as the spin relief and making sure Rashid bowls a lot in red ball cricket - Lions , whatever. Even if he isn't needed at home there will be future tours to the subcontinent ; and he or someone better will be needed. But I don't think you can use Tests against SA ( or an Ashes tour) to nurture young spin talent.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 12:05 pm

I don't think Rashid is necessarily the answer, more making the point the poor guy is only wheeled out on the toughest tours. He could do with something like playing the Windies to build a bit of confidence - then he might relax and bowl better against the tougher teams. Some players do need a bit of nurturing and it's always the spinner that is the first to get the chop in English cricket if they aren't as good as Shane Warne

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 12:32 pm

Important to note, as Cook did post match - the spinners bowled worse once Saqlain Mushtaq left the camp as a consultant.

Not sure why England don't have a full time spin coach, or at least a consultant to stay the whole tour
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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 12:44 pm

Tells you everything you need to know about the priorities in English cricket. Happy to take the money of a 5 Test tour to India but not too worried about the results. Still it's all ok as we have what must be about the tenth Ashes series in the last 5 years to look forward to next Winter

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 12:59 pm

Coule catch this test only in parts. Watched a bit when Moeen and Root were batting in the England first innings, then switched back on when Dawson and Rashid were putting together that partnership. Then Rahul and Nair for a brief time. And then the Nair Jadeja partnership for most of it. Today, I have been on for most of it after lunch.
At 103-0, with the pitch the way it acted up to then, thought the draw was pretty much the done deal. Sir Ravindra Jadeja had other ideas though! He took out 7 wickets by himself and had a hand in 2 more, and England lost their way and were bowled out for 208, losing 10 for just about a hundred.
Terrific win for India, brilliant comeback after England scored nearly 500, to register an innings win from that position is remarkable.
Fabulous from Karun Nair and KL Rahul teammates and close friends from Karnataka. Good support from Parthiv Patel at top, then Ashwin and Jadeja down the order. Very fine effort from Jadeja with the ball to finih things off then.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:08 pm

India had a very well rounded series as such. The openers both have had their share of struggles and injury concerns, but emerged out of the series with credit. Pujara was outstanding, Kohli absolutely fabulous. While Ajinkya Rahane struggled and then got injured and failed the series, his replacement Karun Nair finished the series on an absolute high. Ajinkya might even have to wait just a little bit to get back into the side particularly in spinning conditions. Ashwin was making significant contributionswith the bat throughout the series. Parthiv Patel kept better than expected, and was very good with the bat, after first choice keeper Wriddhiman Saha got injured. Jadeja and Jayant Yadav also making significant contributions with the bat whenever the team needed them to do that.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:09 pm

VTR wrote:I can actually see what Dyre is saying - basically a failure to identify and nurture a lead spinner. Moeen has not been very good other than one series, which is fine as he is more of a batsman, but that's not a lead spinner.

Then Rashid is made lead spinner in ODIs (and does a good job) but is only wheeled out in Tests to play the best players in the world in their own conditions - pretty harsh and doesn't give the guy to build up any confidence

It's clear England aren't that bothered though - we'd rather have some runs and the odd wicket than any attempt to nurture a young talent

Going back a bit I am sure we all remember how good Vettori became for NZ - that's because he played no matter what and was invested in from an early age

Its not a failure of trying though. Its not like they havent been working with Rashid for years. And indeed Moeen.

As for only being wheeled out against the best players in the world....Bangaldesh?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:16 pm

In terms of spinners the county game and pitches dont hep at all. The same issue the aussies (and SA) have had, and India had with seamers till they pushed a change in attitude from top down. Theres little opportunity for these players to devleope as kids, and the first class game is still geared up to serve itself (and retired test players) rather than the England team.
Add in a lack of good spin coaches and its not easily solved.

I guess that maybe where any negliance lies..in the bigger picture rather than the bubble of the team once players are selected. (Not retaining Mushi aside)

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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:25 pm

-->What a day for India...the statistical records and the tangible positives are so many......that we will continue to discuss and applaud for a while after the dust settles on the Euphoria of the moment.

-->I had given Eng a 10% chance to survive and attain a draw....and it was the factors that I had in  mind  when granting 10% chance that kept them hanging for so long today but unfortunately not until the end.....
the top 3 batsmen of Eng are capable of building an inning and holding one end....especially Root and Cook.....one of them had to bat through the inning or most of it.....was possible.... but wasn't gonna be easy given that pitch had deteriorated some what and the mindset of Eng team.....nothing to play...last few hours of the long and hard tour...despondency and depression takes over.....and more so given the mauling of yesterday.

---> Every time they have lost Eng have....in their last innings they have looked in the game until Cook / Haseeb/Jennings /  Root are there......
while 2 of top 3 are there Eng have looked very secure ( only 3 of those 4 have been in the same 11 this series)
whilst 1 of top 3 is still there...they are still holding on.....

without the top-3 in their 2nd inning on D4/D5 pitch.......their rest of the line-up has a hit-out or get-out approach...they do score useful 20s and 30s and 40s but they  are not proper batsmen.....who could defend their end with proper defense and proper strokes.....
the "not pure batsmen" in them urges them to go for---> Hit out sooner than later.

--They need proper batsmen at least down to no.5....
who have a solid defense and can build an inning.....

Stokes, Ali, Butler are not in that category.....and much as Bairstow has scored runs....he is also not fit to be in top-5......he has a couple of fundamental flaws with his defensive technique

1)Plays across the line of straight ball 
2) sweeps compulsively as his get-away shot

he has been getting runs under the assured mindset of being a WK batsmen...the moment you make him a pure batsmen....he will be exposed quickly

( I made the same comment on Moeen also...Brilliant with his batting skills at No.7 or 8  with the assurance of being in the side as a 5th bowler who can bat...but exposed when batting any higher)


Last edited by KP_fan on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Eng in India

Post by Maxi Sanchez on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:32 pm

That was rather startling. Woke up and it was 97-0. Get to the office after a meeting and it's all over Shocked what the fudge happened?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Maxi Sanchez on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:34 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Important to note, as Cook did post match - the spinners bowled worse once Saqlain Mushtaq left the camp as a consultant.

Not sure why England don't have a full time spin coach, or at least a consultant to stay the whole tour
Thought it was because Pakistani nationals aren't welcome in Bombay?

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:37 pm

Gooseberry wrote:In terms of spinners the county game and pitches dont hep at all. The same issue the aussies (and SA) have had, and India had with seamers till they pushed a change in attitude from top down. Theres little opportunity for these players to devleope as kids, and the first class game is still geared up to serve itself (and retired test players) rather than the England team.
Add in a lack of good spin coaches and its not easily solved.

I guess that maybe where any negliance lies..in the bigger picture rather than the bubble of the team once players are selected. (Not retaining Mushi aside)

Exactly - and it isn't going to change any time soon. So hopefully the ECB won't be as stupid next time, and let's have damage limitation of a three Test series if we can, though wave enough cash at them and they'll no doubt agree a 7 Test series is a great idea and we can try to set some new records like losing a Test series by 7-0

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:42 pm

Maxi Sanchez wrote:That was rather startling. Woke up and it was 97-0. Get to the office after a meeting and it's all over Shocked what the fudge happened?

England got out playing a load of attacking shots. Am not really sure they were up for the fight. Quite unprofessional, especially if you consider even with the awfulness of their play from lunch onwards, they still came within 30 mins of drawing the game

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Maxi Sanchez on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:43 pm

VTR wrote:
Maxi Sanchez wrote:That was rather startling. Woke up and it was 97-0. Get to the office after a meeting and it's all over Shocked what the fudge happened?

England got out playing a load of attacking shots. Am not really sure they were up for the fight. Quite unprofessional, especially if you consider even with the awfulness of their play from lunch onwards, they still came within 30 mins of drawing the game
I guess Cook will ditch the captaincy then? Seems to have been a burden around his knee recently

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:51 pm

It looks likely that Cook will go. England have just lost their highest number of Tests in a year (slight caveat is it was probably the highest number played in a year), including poor results in the last three series

I think its about time he unburdened himself from it as he doesn't seem to be enjoying it anymore

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Maxi Sanchez on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 1:58 pm

It's sad that a well polished man like Cook has a 0-5 ashes defeat and 0-4 defeat in India on his CV. He deserved better

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 2:00 pm

Maxi Sanchez wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Important to note, as Cook did post match - the spinners bowled worse once Saqlain Mushtaq left the camp as a consultant.

Not sure why England don't have a full time spin coach, or at least a consultant to stay the whole tour
Thought it was because Pakistani nationals aren't welcome in Bombay?

I dunno - certainly don't know enough about the India/Pakistan issues to comment!
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Re: Eng in India

Post by Maxi Sanchez on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 2:06 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Maxi Sanchez wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Important to note, as Cook did post match - the spinners bowled worse once Saqlain Mushtaq left the camp as a consultant.

Not sure why England don't have a full time spin coach, or at least a consultant to stay the whole tour
Thought it was because Pakistani nationals aren't welcome in Bombay?

I dunno - certainly don't know enough about the India/Pakistan issues to comment!
I'm guessing TBH. As Aleem Dar was supposed to umpired the first two matches but was advised not to go

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 2:24 pm

Maxi Sanchez wrote:It's sad that a well polished man like Cook has a 0-5 ashes defeat and 0-4 defeat in India on his CV. He deserved better

I think if you hang around long enough as captain of most teams you'll end up with a couple of those on the CV - touring is very hard these days and the itineraries are not conducive to a team improving during the tour

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 3:35 pm

One aspect that seems to be continuously ignored by England supporters in particular, is how poorly the English seamers bowled during this entire series. Broad was generally good when he played, and Stokes looked like he can ask some tough questions of the Indian batsmen. Otherwise, it was very disappointing. Anderson talked more off the field than producing anything significant on it, unlike the previous tour wherein he really was a significant difference between the 2 sides. Woakes didn't do anything significant, and Ball was better with the bat than with the ball.
The Indian seamers on the other hand, chipped in with significant contributions throughout. Shami was the best seamer of the series by some way though he didn't play the last 2 games. Umesh had his moments and made significant breakthroughs. Even Ishant Sharma left his imprint on the only game he played, and though he didn't do much else, Bhuvneshwar Kumar's ball that got Jennings at Mumbai swung more than anything that the English seamers managed.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 3:37 pm

Kevin Pietersen, Graeme Swann, Monty Panesar and Captain Cook where phenomenal during the last tour. But so was Anderson, so was Steven Finn when he played.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 3:49 pm

I think the Indian seamers had a much easier job than England's in that they could steam in for short spells and always had Ashwin and Jadeja to bowl the bulk of the overs

England had a series of expensive spinners, so it was up to the seamers to try and provide control and as a consequence bowl a load of overs

Anderson is a fair point but he isn't getting any younger and was essentially playing injured for this tour

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Re: Eng in India

Post by msp83 on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 4:14 pm

VTR wrote:I think the Indian seamers had a much easier job than England's in that they could steam in for short spells and always had Ashwin and Jadeja to bowl the bulk of the overs

England had a series of expensive spinners, so it was up to the seamers to try and provide control and as a consequence bowl a load of overs

Anderson is a fair point but he isn't getting any younger and was essentially playing injured for this tour
The pressure from Ashwin and Jadeja most certainly helped the Indian seamers. However, its not just about that as such. Many times in the series did the Indian seamers got early wickets with the new ball. Shami smashing Cook's stumps into 2 was one such moment. He and Yadav both chipped whenever the spinners were not getting everything to go their way.
Besides, I don't think the England seam bowlers bowled all that many overs. Even in Mumbai wherein they went with 4 seamers, Rashid, Moeen and Root bowled a lot many more overs than the England seamers ever did. Very often Cook had Ali and Rashid bowling together. Unlike India who went in with 2 seamers, England always had at least 3 to call upon.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by VTR on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 4:25 pm

Sorry - should have been more clear - I think England's seamers were sometimes asked to bowl fairly long spells at bad times i.e. when the spinners failed then they have to come in and bowl to set batsmen - pretty demoralising. That and bowling after 2 days in the field i.e. taking the second new ball, which when it comes to that you know its pretty hopeless

Stokes didn't bowl massive amounts of overs but must have been on the field for absolutely hours, plus batting twice in every match and no time between matches - that's got to take its toll

The Indian seamers did seem a lot fresher but I expect its easier to give your all when you are faced with a situation that doesn't look totally hopeless. Also they got to bowl at England, who have been pretty easy pickings at time as a risky shot was always just around the corner

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 4:59 pm

England also got near to no reverse setting here, whereas they were hooping it round corners in Bangladesh

Not sure why they were so unable to get it in India - msp any particular differences as to why they wouldn't have been able to?
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Re: Eng in India

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 5:23 pm

Picking over the bones of the disastrous tour of India it is fair to say that India have improved enormously since England last toured there whilst England have regressed.

The worrying thing for England is that players are putting in cameo performances (ie a century here and a flop there) and no big performances all knitted together in one innings or test. That is a recipe for disaster. Also a worry that is becoming a little more evident is that, in my opinion, the Broad and Anderson partnership is now in its dying stages. Injuries and below best performances are now cropping up more regularly so England must begin to look elsewhere and pretty fast. The spin attack is also not the best but I can't see any other options there for England. The captaincy is also now under question. My money would be on Cook passing over the captain's armband to Joe Root in the coming weeks as Cook's heart no longer seems to be in the job. The only bright thing to take from the tour is the possible unearthing of long sought after openers in the form of Hameed and Jennings - they might just be the way forward.

Full credit though to India. They are the best side in the world right now and are strong in nearly all departments. The seam attack is now a real threat, the spinners are the best in the world, the batting line-up is strong and runs deep. Only area they may need to scrub up on is catching.
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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 6:15 pm

watched Jadeja's wicket's and they were not to any demons in the pitch.......just high quality spin bowling with control and variation that induced errors from the batsmen

He small grumble...he should have been the MoM for a 10-fer whihc is  more valuable than 300 runs of karun nair..
as Eng found out they could get only 7 wickets for 750 runs.

India's next test match is in early Feb and it would be a tough choice to make between Rohit, Rahane and Nair for the 5th batsman slot 

Mishra struggled to be India's no. 4 spinner and althouhg they will paly him in the ODis....India must try a Kuldip yadav, Jalaj saxena and Karn sharma as spinners in ODI
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Re: Eng in India

Post by KP_fan on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 7:17 pm

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/1073441.html


MSK prasad interview
a good view on the thought process, objectives  behind selections......... and there appears a lot of clarity
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Re: Eng in India

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 7:26 pm

I see a few comments above about the need to develop a new Test spinner, whoever he may be.

If the ECB go along with that, they should have a serious look at the Championship fixture list. Half of the matches in that competition next year are scheduled to be played in the two months of April and September. Normally ideal weather conditions then for seamers but hardly encouraging for the slow men to practise their art, even if selected.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:26 pm

guildfordbat wrote:I see a few comments above about the need to develop a new Test spinner, whoever he may be.

If the ECB go along with that, they should have a serious look at the Championship fixture list. Half of the matches in that competition next year are scheduled to be played in the two months of April and September. Normally ideal weather conditions then for seamers but hardly encouraging for the slow men to practise their art, even if selected.
 Hi Guildford - I'm with you on the issue of scheduling of championship fixture list.  I fear however that we will left to go and Whistle

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Re: Eng in India

Post by sirfredperry on Wed 21 Dec 2016, 8:41 am

India should not get too carried away. This was comfortably the weakest England side to tour for many years. Eng were also hampered by injuries. Last time they played in India they had two good spinners. This time they had none.
Plus factors for England - Jennings and Hameed. Minus factors - lack of decent spinners, the captaincy, lack of support for Broad and Anderson.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 21 Dec 2016, 10:28 am

guildfordbat wrote:I see a few comments above about the need to develop a new Test spinner, whoever he may be.

If the ECB go along with that, they should have a serious look at the Championship fixture list. Half of the matches in that competition next year are scheduled to be played in the two months of April and September. Normally ideal weather conditions then for seamers but hardly encouraging for the slow men to practise their art, even if selected.

Whats that Guilford...you are agreeing with me again???

The whole structure is not condusive to developing spinners.

Of course it also doesnt help that they have the worthy and admirable is somewhat niave belief that spinners should bowl legally (see Leach) and doggedly refuse to teach certain types of delivery at all levels. Mind the Indians too have stood up against the rise of the " mystery" spinners too, Jadeja and Ashwin are pretty orthodox and not reliant on "hyper mobile shoulders" like certain past spin masters.


Whilst the county game is where spinenr will ply their trade there is the "elite pathways programme" too. This in theory is where they should be getting the higher quality coaching and chance to shine (or sh1te in the case of most of whats come out in recent years).
This years Lions squad had Rayner, Leach and Dawson in it. 1 of those had a good county season, 1 decent, the other rubbish. No great surprise in which one got the call up Rolling Eyes Which maybe agains hows just how pointless the county game has become for developing and gauging international talent.

Overseas placements .. there a Dan Lawrence and Matt Critchley who can just about be called an all rounder leggies but are primarily batsmen, Dominic Bess (teenage offspinner who got a couple of games for Somersets first XI at the end of the season), Mason Crane (teenage legspinner), Rob Sayer ( offspinner with leicestershire whos record is as woeful as the rest of his teams), and Matthew Carter ( another offspinner )

Bearing in mind theres only 9 overseas placements we cant accuse them of not being aware of the need to identify new spinners and put something into bringing them on. Thats where the concentration is this winter for sure in the placements. They will be coached by Jeetan Patel and Stuart Macgill (who no doubt will be helping them with their bench warming skills).
That said there is a seperate "pace programme" which explains the lack of seamers, and the hunt for fast bowlers has got priority in the set up. Thats justifiable to a point since they need more of them, and they break more easily.

So there is a set up there to bring these players through. And those in the Lions whove also had a test chance have come through these pathways for the most part. Ansari Rashid and Dawson werent just thrust into the test team form obscuirty. Its just the programmes havent been very succesful I guess. It will be interesting to see how many of those getting chances this winter make the grade in years to come. For now Leach seems to be the big hope.


The point got made a couple of days ago in relation to Kholi wanting to play CC that other than a handfull of T20 mercenaries playing IPL that English players simply wont go and play for sub continental teams. Theres cultural, language and economic reasons for that, but that surely has to be a thing when it comes to looking at why England (and Aus, New Zealand and SA) have struggled so much to bring through test quality spinners who can thrive on Asian pitches. We probably need to start poaching more Indian teenagers rather than South Africans too.


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Re: Eng in India

Post by JDizzle on Wed 21 Dec 2016, 7:02 pm

Just a quick point about spinners, if you look at the countries that don't necessarily have spinning pitches - England, SA, Australia, New Zealand. How many real quality spinners have these countries had between them in the last 20 years?

Warne, obviously. Then who is the next best? Swann? Then you are looking at people like Panesar, MacGill, Vettori (Does he even deserve to be in this group?). Have South Africa had one spinner even as good as Vettori in that time? None that spring obviously to mind, but I am happy to be corrected. The answer is not Paul Harris!

Nathan Lyon is decent, but he has seriously struggled in the sub continent.

Really long winded way of saying it, but developing spin is hard! Obviously this doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve out system, as it is obviously not ideal - but we can't expect spinners to appear overnight.

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Re: Eng in India

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 21 Dec 2016, 9:21 pm

Warne, Swann, Macgill and Panesar are the only worthwhile spinners I can think of from those nations, Lyon and Vettori have averages far higher than their actual ability.

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