Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

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Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 12:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

I think it was another reporter in the same paper said that Nucifora may be taking Munster on as a sort of personal project, getting Erasmus (his man) in and getting them on the right path again, it can be taken with a pinch of salt but reading more

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/ruaidhri-oconnor-ben-smith-capture-would-catapult-munster-back-to-the-top-table-35307339.html

"Talk of Ben Smith joining Munster...... the province may have sought outside help to bring Smith in. IRFU performance director Nucifora has spoken of his willingness to get private investors involved."

"Erasmus is working hard to increase his options next season, with Irish-qualified trio Chris Farrell, JJ Hanrahan and James Hart on the way, while Munster are likely to be allowed retain one of Jaco Taute or Francis Saili."

"Rhys Marshall, a project player from New Zealand, has already joined and uncapped South African prop Oliver Kebble has been linked with a move."

Munster couldn't afford their stadium repayments last year and are now in talks with Smith?

How much of this is true?

How much is down to Munster, and how much Nucifora?

How can Munster get Hart to be behind Murray, and have Pienaar leave Ulster? (why is Nucifora not making this an Ulster move to replace Pienaar)
Allowed an NIQ center forever and add a NIQ fullback, yet they have not produced any centers and have to relay on former Ulster ones Farrell, and Arnold?

If any of this is true fair play to Munster, but if its true and Nucifora is involved I wouldn't be as happy.
How can Nucifora push through all this for Munster who have limited finances, yet can't assit in moving some backrows to Ulster?



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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:18 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:I don't think Hanrahan was allowed to leave he just wasn't given guarantees he wanted

As for the Pienaar/Taute situation, I think Nucifora has been trying to force Ulster to get someone IQ in or at least a project and hes cocked it up as the options are limited and instead of holding his hands up to it has just dug further in

By allowed, I mean more should have been done to keep him. In my opinion he was the better option than Keatley so more should have been done. He left on his own free will, yes but if Munster had guaranteed him more then I believe he would have stayed.

Making promises that you don't intend to keep isn't a great way to go

Maybe it was up to Hanrahan to leave them without a doubt he was the man they needed

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:22 pm

I am not sure why they could not be kept? As I said, he was a far better option than Keatley and should have stayed to develop. Some players are worth investing in.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:25 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Golden wrote:Is Hanrahan to Munster not confirmed? With him and Farrell coming to Munster I'd expect both NIQs to gone next season. Hasnt Saili confirmed he wants to go back to try make the RWC squad.

Hanrahan isn't confirmed. All the Provinces have two NIQ players in their backs (Leinster - Nacewa & Zane Kirchner), Ulster (Louis Ludik & Piutau). I think they are needed to keep things ticking over to cover for Ireland players. Munster is likely to supply Earls, Zebo & Sweetnam to Ireland (with maybe Rory Scannell as well) and with Conway being fairly injury prone, it makes sense to try and keep Taute. Who knows if Saili will be sticking around as well?

It only happens every couple of years that a new coach comes in and brings in players that might not have thought of Ireland up to that, so best to take advantage of it when you can.


Ludiks a project player though

The chances are he will never be capped. He is 30 years of age and so provides experience that maybe lacking with a lot of young players in the Ulster squad.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:27 pm

eirebilly wrote:I am not sure why they could not be kept? As I said, he was a far better option than Keatley and should have stayed to develop. Some players are worth investing in.

As far as Im aware they wanted his development to continue at 12 and Saints offered him the money and gametime at 10

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:29 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Golden wrote:Is Hanrahan to Munster not confirmed? With him and Farrell coming to Munster I'd expect both NIQs to gone next season. Hasnt Saili confirmed he wants to go back to try make the RWC squad.

Hanrahan isn't confirmed. All the Provinces have two NIQ players in their backs (Leinster - Nacewa & Zane Kirchner), Ulster (Louis Ludik & Piutau). I think they are needed to keep things ticking over to cover for Ireland players. Munster is likely to supply Earls, Zebo & Sweetnam to Ireland (with maybe Rory Scannell as well) and with Conway being fairly injury prone, it makes sense to try and keep Taute. Who knows if Saili will be sticking around as well?

It only happens every couple of years that a new coach comes in and brings in players that might not have thought of Ireland up to that, so best to take advantage of it when you can.


Ludiks a project player though

The chances are he will never be capped. He is 30 years of age and so provides experience that maybe lacking with a lot of young players in the Ulster squad.

Think he will be closer to the squad than many realise, wasn't he in one of the recent Irish camps?

Hes versatile and solid at every facet of the game

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:30 pm

eirebilly wrote:I am not sure why they could not be kept? As I said, he was a far better option than Keatley and should have stayed to develop. Some players are worth investing in.

The way I see it is that JJ left because he was offered a load of dosh and his girlfriend was over there (think she now works for Northampton as a physio - so no different to Robbie Henshaw). JJ was not given any guarantees about gametime and as it has now turned out, he ended up getting a lot less.

If he isn't coming back to Munster, I'd love to see him going to Racing - he would learn a lot from ROG and Dan.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:30 pm

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I am not sure why they could not be kept? As I said, he was a far better option than Keatley and should have stayed to develop. Some players are worth investing in.

As far as Im aware they wanted his development to continue at 12 and Saints offered him the money and gametime at 10

Exactly what I am saying, more should have been done to keep him by playing him at 10 more regularly than Keatley.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:33 pm

Sin é wrote:

If he isn't coming back to Munster, I'd love to see him going to Racing - he would learn a lot from ROG and Dan.

Good call, he would certainly learn a lot from those two and become an excellent 10. That said, I would still prefer him to go to Connacht if he were not to return to Munster. Think he and Marmion could form a great partnership at 9 - 10.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:33 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I am not sure why they could not be kept? As I said, he was a far better option than Keatley and should have stayed to develop. Some players are worth investing in.

As far as Im aware they wanted his development to continue at 12 and Saints offered him the money and gametime at 10

Exactly what I am saying, more should have been done to keep him by playing him at 10 more regularly than Keatley.

Sometimes the best development is done by protecting a player, its what happened with Paddy Jackson and is paying dividends now


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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:36 pm

How was Paddy Jackson protected Marty?

I thought he was exposed early and fought his way through, mark of a quality player.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:39 pm

eirebilly wrote:How was Paddy Jackson protected Marty?

I thought he was exposed early and fought his way through, mark of a quality player.

Ian Humphreys played regularly ahead of him and after he took the 10 shirt Pienaar was the place kicker for a long time

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:40 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Golden wrote:Is Hanrahan to Munster not confirmed? With him and Farrell coming to Munster I'd expect both NIQs to gone next season. Hasnt Saili confirmed he wants to go back to try make the RWC squad.

Hanrahan isn't confirmed. All the Provinces have two NIQ players in their backs (Leinster - Nacewa & Zane Kirchner), Ulster (Louis Ludik & Piutau). I think they are needed to keep things ticking over to cover for Ireland players. Munster is likely to supply Earls, Zebo & Sweetnam to Ireland (with maybe Rory Scannell as well) and with Conway being fairly injury prone, it makes sense to try and keep Taute. Who knows if Saili will be sticking around as well?

It only happens every couple of years that a new coach comes in and brings in players that might not have thought of Ireland up to that, so best to take advantage of it when you can.


Ludiks a project player though

The chances are he will never be capped. He is 30 years of age and so provides experience that maybe lacking with a lot of young players in the Ulster squad.

Think he will be closer to the squad than many realise, wasn't he in one of the recent Irish camps?

Hes versatile and solid at every facet of the game

I'd also add the the IRFU would want more cover at Fullback, Kearney and O'Halloran are the only Full time fullbacks, Zebo may be seen as one, and Payne is considered a centre, so they would have wanted more options there.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:43 pm

Ok, I thought that he was starting more that Ian Humphreys. Seemed that way to me anyways. As for the kicking, Pienaar was the better kicker so always the better option to take the kicks until Paddy proved he was up to the task, didn't really see that as protecting him.

I guess as a Munster fan, I miss the little things like that from other provinces as I do not pay as much attention to them as I do Munster.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:51 pm

eirebilly wrote:Ok, I thought that he was starting more that Ian Humphreys. Seemed that way to me anyways. As for the kicking, Pienaar was the better kicker so always the better option to take the kicks until Paddy proved he was up to the task, didn't really see that as protecting him.

I guess as a Munster fan, I miss the little things like that from other provinces as I do not pay as much attention to them as I do Munster.

I don't think it lasted long and Jackson was the clear option in the end, I think Keatley and Hanrahan were at lot closer in ability at the time than most realise

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 1:56 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I am not sure why they could not be kept? As I said, he was a far better option than Keatley and should have stayed to develop. Some players are worth investing in.

As far as Im aware they wanted his development to continue at 12 and Saints offered him the money and gametime at 10

Exactly what I am saying, more should have been done to keep him by playing him at 10 more regularly than Keatley.

JJ had 10 starts at 10 for Munster in his first full season. 2nd season, he was injured for the start of the season, then Munster ended up losing Felix Jones so he played there a bit. Then he announced he was leaving, so Munster left him moving around the backline. In his 2 seasons at Northampton, JJ has had 7 starts at 10 (out of 24 games he was involved in).

He hasn't played at 10 this season for the Saints. Bearing in mind how few starts at 10 JJ had, I'd say they promised him nothing with regard to preferred position. Bearing in mind all the similar type 10s that have been through Northampton and haven't worked out (Geraghy for example), he was nuts to go there to develop as a 10. If it was for the money - fair dues to him!




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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Dec 2016, 2:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I am not sure why they could not be kept? As I said, he was a far better option than Keatley and should have stayed to develop. Some players are worth investing in.

As far as Im aware they wanted his development to continue at 12 and Saints offered him the money and gametime at 10

Exactly what I am saying, more should have been done to keep him by playing him at 10 more regularly than Keatley.

JJ had 10 starts at 10 for Munster in his first full season. 2nd season, he was injured for the start of the season, then Munster ended up losing Felix Jones so he played there a bit. Then he announced he was leaving, so Munster left him moving around the backline. In his 2 seasons at Northampton, JJ has had 7 starts at 10 (out of 24 games he was involved in).

He hasn't played at 10 this season for the Saints. Bearing in mind how few starts at 10 JJ had, I'd say they promised him nothing with regard to preferred position. Bearing in mind all the similar type 10s that have been through Northampton and haven't worked out (Geraghy for example), he was nuts to go there to develop as a 10. If it was for the money - fair dues to him!



He and Myler rotated at the start of last season like they had done with Lamb and when he wasn't setting the world alight it was Mylers place to lose

Like you said, players of a similar ilk haven't succeeded at Saints in recent times

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 2:48 pm

Jaco Taute is staying in Munster until end of season (to cover centre & fullback).

Sweetnam is out for 6 weeks.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 3:20 pm

Someone on Munsterfans posted this info on Munster's/Provinces share with IRFU (from 2010). From Irish Times.

"The IRFU would also have taken half of Munster’s 50 per cent take from their home quarter-final at Thomond Park last season, and ditto from Ulster’s take.

Therefore, given a 26,000 capacity at Thomond Park, the total gate receipts would be in the region of €900,000, of which about €180,000 would be deducted for costs.

Of their €360,000, Munster would share that equally with the union and, uniquely in last year’s case, so too would Ulster, which means the IRFU’s share of the gate was €360,000, with Munster and Ulster taking home €180,000 each.

----

Hopefully, people will stop whinging about IRFU loan to Munster when they see the kind of money that Munster have been putting in the back pockets of the IRFU over the years.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Munchkin on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 3:33 pm

So Munster owe €9m and the IRFU take €180k. Ulster owe nothing and the IRFU take €180k. Seems fair?

Before you throw a wobbly, I don't really care what Munster owe. I have said in the past that Munster should be given all the time they need to pay it off, or even write it off.

I'm not annoyed that Taute gets an extension either. Good for Munster. It does show the hypocrisy of the IRFU though.

Ulster are poor this season. Just watch what happens next season.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 3:41 pm

I don't think anyone is having a moan about Munster or their finances, in truth we are all just a little jealous and wish Nucifora and the IRFU would give us all the same special treatment.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 3:48 pm

Munchkin wrote:So Munster owe €9m and the IRFU take €180k. Ulster owe nothing and the IRFU take €180k. Seems fair?

Ulster could have been playing against Saracens and they with the IRFU would't get anything like €180k as their share of the gate.

Before you throw a wobbly, I don't really care what Munster owe. I have said in the past that Munster should be given all the time they need to pay it off, or even write it off.

In truth I like to use the opportunity to show how much extra the IRFU have made from Munster with them getting a cut from all those QFs, semis and finals they have been making over the years.

I'm not annoyed that Taute gets an extension either. Good for Munster. It does show the hypocrisy of the IRFU though.

Ulster are poor this season. Just watch what happens next season.

Ulster got their special treatment the last time Pienaar renewed his contract (which were all very long one anyway). I presume Munster will only be allowed keep one of Saili or Taute next season. Also remember, the IRFU refused Munster a fair few players fairly recently.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 3:49 pm

Kingshu wrote:I don't think anyone is having a moan about Munster or their finances, in truth we are all just a little jealous and wish Nucifora and the IRFU would give us all the same special treatment.

You might not be having a moan, but a lot of people are. Smile
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 4:05 pm

Sin é wrote:
Kingshu wrote:I don't think anyone is having a moan about Munster or their finances, in truth we are all just a little jealous and wish Nucifora and the IRFU would give us all the same special treatment.

You might not be having a moan, but a lot of people are. Smile

I don't mind the finance and personally I don't really think the Pienaar thing is that comparable to Taute, However Coetzee is

Ulster, "Hi our NIQ player in an position we are weak in, but Ireland are strong in, Coetzee, has been ruled out for nine months with injury, can we sign a medical joker until he recovers?

IRFU "NO"

Munster "Hi our NIQ player in an position we are OK in, and Ireland are strong in, Saili, has been ruled out for four months with injury, can we sign a medical joker until he recovers?

IRFU "Certainly and you can keep him when Saili recovers to the end of the season if you want, as well."

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Munchkin on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 4:06 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:So Munster owe €9m and the IRFU take €180k. Ulster owe nothing and the IRFU take €180k. Seems fair?

(1) Ulster could have been playing against Saracens and they with the IRFU would't get anything like €180k as their share of the gate.

Before you throw a wobbly, I don't really care what Munster owe. I have said in the past that Munster should be given all the time they need to pay it off, or even write it off.

(2) In truth I like to use the opportunity to show how much extra the IRFU have made from Munster with them getting a cut from all those QFs, semis and finals they have been making over the years.

I'm not annoyed that Taute gets an extension either. Good for Munster. It does show the hypocrisy of the IRFU though.

Ulster are poor this season. Just watch what happens next season.

(3) Ulster got their special treatment the last time Pienaar renewed his contract (which were all very long one anyway). I presume Munster will only be allowed keep one of Saili or Taute next season. Also remember, the IRFU refused Munster a fair few players fairly recently.

(1) Ulster have been getting better gates than Munster, up until recently, although you miss the point, or avoid it. The point being that Munster owe the IRFU a rather large debt, and yet pay the same gate proceeds to the IRFU as Ulster, who owe nothing. Just firing your own example back at you. Like I said; I don't care.

(2) Try the same explanation to a Bank you owe money to. "but I've been a good customer for years....". Won't get you far.

(3) Special treatment? It wasn't anything close to special treatment because Pienaar was never blocking anyone. The IRFU made interest on Pienaar - mentoring the backs, especially Jackson - qualifying out of the Euro pools - Ticket sales - helping grow rugby in one of their Provinces.

I get the impression you're more interested in attacking Ulster than defending Munster. Keep going ....

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 4:34 pm

Happy to see Taute stay but also do sympathise with the Ulster lads. Taute is not the same situation as Pienaar.

Pienaar wants to stay with Ulster (loves it there) is not stopping the progression of an Irish player (helping the development of the future Irish 10 as I have said many times before) and helps Ulster attract bigger crowds by helping them progress as a team in competitions.

Taute seems happy to be at Munster but I don't get the feeling he has the same feelings towards Munster as he is only there short term, its all business for him.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 02 Jan 2017, 11:15 pm

That's just a laughable comparison Sin.
There's no player treatment that anyone can being up that comes close to how Ruan Pienaar has been by the blinkered, mindless half-wits in the IRFU. Ruan's worth to the IRFU has been ignored I just can't imagine how the blazers cannot see what he is to Ulster both on and off the field.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 12:13 am

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:So Munster owe €9m and the IRFU take €180k. Ulster owe nothing and the IRFU take €180k. Seems fair?

(1) Ulster could have been playing against Saracens and they with the IRFU would't get anything like €180k as their share of the gate.

Before you throw a wobbly, I don't really care what Munster owe. I have said in the past that Munster should be given all the time they need to pay it off, or even write it off.

(2) In truth I like to use the opportunity to show how much extra the IRFU have made from Munster with them getting a cut from all those QFs, semis and finals they have been making over the years.

I'm not annoyed that Taute gets an extension either. Good for Munster. It does show the hypocrisy of the IRFU though.

Ulster are poor this season. Just watch what happens next season.

(3) Ulster got their special treatment the last time Pienaar renewed his contract (which were all very long one anyway). I presume Munster will only be allowed keep one of Saili or Taute next season. Also remember, the IRFU refused Munster a fair few players fairly recently.

(1) Ulster have been getting better gates than Munster, up until recently, although you miss the point, or avoid it. The point being that Munster owe the IRFU a rather large debt, and yet pay the same gate proceeds to the IRFU as Ulster, who owe nothing. Just firing your own example back at you. Like I said; I don't care.

(2) Try the same explanation to a Bank you owe money to. "but I've been a good customer for years....". Won't get you far.

(3) Special treatment? It wasn't anything close to special treatment because Pienaar was never blocking anyone. The IRFU made interest on Pienaar - mentoring the backs, especially Jackson - qualifying out of the Euro pools - Ticket sales - helping grow rugby in one of their Provinces.

I get the impression you're more interested in attacking Ulster than defending Munster. Keep going ....

(1) IRFU only take cuts from gates for reaching QFs & Semi finals of Heineken Cup/Champs Cup. IRFU also take all of the merit payments. To date Munster have been to 16 QFs, 7 Semi-Finals & 4 Finals. How many has Ulster been to?

(2) The IRFU isn't a bank, but I'm sure even they would see the merit that a big push for sales 10 year seat sales this year will require some investing in the product.

(3) With Pienaar in situ, Ulster were never going to attract a scrum half to Ulster (either project or Ireland Qualified). As I've posted before, Ulster has a huge problem in that it doesn't have any team in the AIL1. I wonder if the reason Angus Lloyd is remaining at Munster for the rest of the season is so that he can get some meaningful gamete (either with Munster A or AIL). Pienaar has been with Ulster for 7 years now and Ulster have been unable to produce any sort of a scrum half. Meanwhile, Munster have moved on very loyal servants like Peter Stringer, Tomas O'Leary & Donnacha O'Callaghan in the interests of developing the squad.

Get what ever impression you want, but the facts are that while Pienaar has helped develop Paddy Jackson, he needs to move on so that a younger IQ player is found.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 12:22 am

eirebilly wrote:Happy to see Taute stay but also do sympathise with the Ulster lads. Taute is not the same situation as Pienaar.

Pienaar wants to stay with Ulster (loves it there) is not stopping the progression of an Irish player (helping the development of the future Irish 10 as I have said many times before) and helps Ulster attract bigger crowds by helping them progress as a team in competitions.

Taute seems happy to be at Munster but I don't get the feeling he has the same feelings towards Munster as he is only there short term, its all business for him.

You are wrong about Taute. Any player involved with Munster this season will always be very attached to Munster. He certainly plays like it means a lot to him.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/sport/221525/jaco-taute-munster-face-one-hell-of-a-task-in-ulster.html
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Munchkin on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 1:50 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:So Munster owe €9m and the IRFU take €180k. Ulster owe nothing and the IRFU take €180k. Seems fair?

(1) Ulster could have been playing against Saracens and they with the IRFU would't get anything like €180k as their share of the gate.

Before you throw a wobbly, I don't really care what Munster owe. I have said in the past that Munster should be given all the time they need to pay it off, or even write it off.

(2) In truth I like to use the opportunity to show how much extra the IRFU have made from Munster with them getting a cut from all those QFs, semis and finals they have been making over the years.

I'm not annoyed that Taute gets an extension either. Good for Munster. It does show the hypocrisy of the IRFU though.

Ulster are poor this season. Just watch what happens next season.

(3) Ulster got their special treatment the last time Pienaar renewed his contract (which were all very long one anyway). I presume Munster will only be allowed keep one of Saili or Taute next season. Also remember, the IRFU refused Munster a fair few players fairly recently.

(1) Ulster have been getting better gates than Munster, up until recently, although you miss the point, or avoid it. The point being that Munster owe the IRFU a rather large debt, and yet pay the same gate proceeds to the IRFU as Ulster, who owe nothing. Just firing your own example back at you. Like I said; I don't care.

(2) Try the same explanation to a Bank you owe money to. "but I've been a good customer for years....". Won't get you far.

(3) Special treatment? It wasn't anything close to special treatment because Pienaar was never blocking anyone. The IRFU made interest on Pienaar - mentoring the backs, especially Jackson - qualifying out of the Euro pools - Ticket sales - helping grow rugby in one of their Provinces.

I get the impression you're more interested in attacking Ulster than defending Munster. Keep going ....

(1) IRFU only take cuts from gates for reaching QFs & Semi finals of Heineken Cup/Champs Cup. IRFU also take all of the merit payments. To date Munster have been to 16 QFs, 7 Semi-Finals & 4 Finals.  How many has Ulster been to?

(2) The IRFU isn't a bank, but I'm sure even they would see the merit that a big push for sales 10 year seat sales this year will require some investing in the product.

(3) With Pienaar in situ, Ulster were never going to attract a scrum half to Ulster (either project or Ireland Qualified). As I've posted before, Ulster has a huge problem in that it doesn't have any team in the AIL1. I wonder if the reason Angus Lloyd is remaining at Munster for the rest of the season is so that he can get some meaningful gamete (either with Munster A or AIL). Pienaar has been with Ulster for 7 years now and Ulster have been unable to produce any sort of a scrum half. Meanwhile, Munster have moved on very loyal servants like Peter Stringer, Tomas O'Leary & Donnacha O'Callaghan in the interests of developing the squad.

Get what ever impression you want, but the facts are that while Pienaar has helped develop Paddy Jackson, he needs to move on so that a younger IQ player is found.

(1) Ancient history, Sin, but you keep living on past glories. Try looking at the facts. Munster have been sliding for a few years now, and it's only the intervention of the IRFU that is saving your hide. Any money Munster managed to put the IRFU's way is dwarfed by Munster's debt. A debt that impacts on the other three Provinces. I'm not bitching about it. Just putting your blustering in its right place.

Ulster, on the other hand, have been very successful off field. No debts, and not a financial burden to the IRFU, or the other three Provinces. Shame we couldn't mirror that success on field, but it's not like Munster have been a raging success over the last few years either.

(2) The IRFU isn't a Bank, but it acts like one when it's giving out loans to the Provinces. Loans that should be paid on time, as Ulster have done in the past. Munster .... not so much.

(3) You're right about the AIL. That's a failing for sure, as is the schools set-up. Your oft repeated claim that the presence of Pienaar prevents others from coming to Ulster is nonsense. Not many players expect to walk into any side as a starter. They bide their time, challenging for a starting place just like anyone else. If there are any Irish qualified that are worth investing in, then they will jump in ahead of Marshall. They will get plenty of game time, as Marshall does throughout the season. Plenty of time to prove themselves.

If Lloyd was better than Marshall, Lloyd would still be with Ulster. He has time to learn and develop though, and moving to Munster makes sense if he can get game time. Ulster have tried a few SH's during Pienaar's time at Ulster, and none have been able to challenge Marshall. We will wait and see if Lloyd is able to fill those massive boots....

You don't think Ulster have moved on players in the interests of developing the squad? You, being a Munster man, should know very well that's not true.

No, Pienaar doesn't need to move while there is no viable replacement to challenge Marshall. Open your other eye and you will see the truth of that.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 2:17 pm

Sin é wrote:
(3) With Pienaar in situ, Ulster were never going to attract a scrum half to Ulster (either project or Ireland Qualified). As I've posted before, Ulster has a huge problem in that it doesn't have any team in the AIL1. I wonder if the reason Angus Lloyd is remaining at Munster for the rest of the season is so that he can get some meaningful gamete (either with Munster A or AIL). Pienaar has been with Ulster for 7 years now and Ulster have been unable to produce any sort of a scrum half. Meanwhile, Munster have moved on very loyal servants like Peter Stringer, Tomas O'Leary & Donnacha O'Callaghan in the interests of developing the squad.

Get what ever impression you want, but the facts are that while Pienaar has helped develop Paddy Jackson, he needs to move on so that a younger IQ player is found.

Munster haven't moved them on to develop the squad, two left because they weren't getting the game time they wanted and DOC left early because he asked to go and was offered a new challenge and he was replaced by Chisholm

Also if Pienaar was leaving Ulster Im sure could easily replace him but Ulster are being told to find an IQ 9 from somewhere when the problem is there is a lack of decent IQ 9s and Ulster are being told to suffer for the greater good

You mention Munsters 10 year ticket sales and the affect on the product, Ulster have tickets to sell too and it wont help season ticket sales if one of the biggest draws in the league
is being shipped out to shoehorn in a replacement who likely wont be fit to lace his boots

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 11:33 pm

Sin é wrote:Someone on Munsterfans posted this info on Munster's/Provinces share with IRFU (from 2010). From Irish Times.

"The IRFU would also have taken half of Munster’s 50 per cent take from their home quarter-final at Thomond Park last season, and ditto from Ulster’s take.

Therefore, given a 26,000 capacity at Thomond Park, the total gate receipts would be in the region of €900,000, of which about €180,000 would be deducted for costs.

Of their €360,000, Munster would share that equally with the union and, uniquely in last year’s case, so too would Ulster, which means the IRFU’s share of the gate was €360,000, with Munster and Ulster taking home €180,000 each.

----

Hopefully, people will stop whinging about IRFU loan to Munster when they see the kind of money that Munster have been putting in the back pockets of the IRFU over the years.


Sin - this somewhat irritated comment by yourself piqued my interest in relation to your IT quoted remark about sharing of gate receipts.  

You indicate that the IRFU take 50% of the gate revenue from the provinces from their Euro matches for Quarter- and Semi-finals.  Do you happen to know if that is just for home matches or does it apply to away knockout Euro matches as well?  And do you know what happens with gate monies from finals?

At a simple top level, the attendances for home and away European QF/SF/F matches for Munster since 1995/96 season currently total 965,930.  The next best is Leinster with 761,710.  Ulster are on 255,347 and Connacht trail in last with 72,134. 

I'm also interested in your comment about the "money that Munster have been putting in the back pocket of the IRFU over the years".  

The critical point of your contention about Munster generating money for the IRFU over the years centres around the time of the upgrading of Thomond Park and the underlying financial commitment and loan to do that based on Munster's evident ability - at the time - to fill stadia.

Prior to the opening of the re-built Thomond Park, Munster used a combination of old Thomond (3) and Lansdowne Road (2) for the 5 knockout home matches they'd had up to that point.   They delivered 138,000 punters in home attendances.  And 256,000 attended their 12 away knockout matches up to end of 2007/08 season. And a further 292,000 attended the four finals in which they were involved up to end of the 2007/08 season. That's 686,000 for the period.  Leaving 280,000 from knockout matches in the eight seasons since then.

The first opportunity to use new Thomond for a knockout match occurred in the 2008/09 season against Ospreys. 

The joint investment and loan to Munster Branch for upgrading of Thomond Park was predicated in part on Munster being able to deliver the gates that would enable loan payback and an agreed interest return on the investment by the IRFU.  The management company that controls Thomond Park is jointly owned 50/50 between IRFU and the Branch.  Therefore, IRFU is entitled to 50% of the company's earnings from ticket sales, hospitality, etc from all events, league and cup matches - assuming these revenues all flow into the stadium company.   

Since 2008/09, there have been four other euro knockout matches totalling 125,000 punters for the period, including the split match with Ulster. Using the assumed values from the IT article, that's 5 x €360k = €1.8m as Munster's earnings.  

A question arises if the IRFU have taken their 50% off the top of each of these €1.8m earnings, leaving €900k to go into the Thomond Stadium Company which they own 50% of, or did they forgo their additional 50% share?  And do they continue to do so?

In addition to the €9m stadium loan, on which it should be pointed out that Munster have continued to pay the annual interest (c. €50k) but not the principal, the IRFU also bailed out the branch last year to the tune of over €1m.  Munster also benefited from the player salary top-ups of €250k for each province distributed last year. 

Your overall point about Munster having some historic credit in the IRFU bank is a fair one, but it's worthwhile making some attempt at quantifying that historic credit.   Approx 394,000 punters (1995-2008) for QF/SF knockout matches - home and away - using the above 2010 stadium revenue values and 20% costs would generate €11m approx leaving €5.5m to be shared between Munster and IRFU. If you knock 15% off for inflation that would leave the split at €2.3m each.   Using same prices/costs, since 2008/09, the 280,000 attending Munster knockout matches would equate to €3.8m approx - a split of €1.9m each.  

I'll stop now.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 10:45 am

http://www.the42.ie/pat-lam-mitch-lam-connacht-irfu-block-3168849-Jan2017/

"PAT LAM HAS says an effort to bring his own son in for three weeks to help offset an injury crisis in Connacht was shot down by the IRFU because he is a foreign player."

"efforts to draft in the 23-year old in the midst of a crippling spate of injuries to Connacht’s backline were unsuccessful, even though it would not have cost the province any money."

“We only needed somebody for three weeks because O’Leary is not far around the corner. Craig Ronaldson is not far, so it is just to cover off the injuries"

"now be heading to play Ospreys this weekend with replacement scrum-half Caolin Blade playing at out-half."

How is having Caolin Blade playing at Out Half helping develop Irish players in this position? Behind Boshoff Connacth have 3 IQ outhaves (all injuried currently), surely allowing someone in for 3 weeks who will not cost anything, and is familiar with the team and calls makes more sense, than playing Caolin Blade at outhalf.

One rule for Munster and another for the rest?

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 10:51 am

If it is indeed true that the IRFU are blocking Connacht for temporary 3 week cover then it is absolutely poor, especially as it would not cost a thing. Surely it's in the benefit of the IRFU to have Connacht be able to compete?

I do not like double standards but it is looking very much like that right now.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 10:54 am

Kingshu wrote:http://www.the42.ie/pat-lam-mitch-lam-connacht-irfu-block-3168849-Jan2017/

"PAT LAM HAS says an effort to bring his own son in for three weeks to help offset an injury crisis in Connacht was shot down by the IRFU because he is a foreign player."

"efforts to draft in the 23-year old in the midst of a crippling spate of injuries to Connacht’s backline were unsuccessful, even though it would not have cost the province any money."

“We only needed somebody for three weeks because O’Leary is not far around the corner. Craig Ronaldson is not far, so it is just to cover off the injuries"

"now be heading to play Ospreys this weekend with replacement scrum-half Caolin Blade playing at out-half."

How is having Caolin Blade playing at Out Half helping develop Irish players in this position? Behind Boshoff Connacth have 3 IQ outhaves (all injuried currently), surely allowing someone in for 3 weeks who will not cost anything, and is familiar with the team and calls makes more sense, than playing Caolin Blade at outhalf.

One rule for Munster and another for the rest?

The problem is though that Lam acknowledges he could bring in a UBL 10 but they wouldn't know the calls and his son was brought in to the setup with the foresight that they could need him, so why wasn't a UBL player brought in instead or along side too?

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 11:04 am

Ulster, "Hi our NIQ player in an position we are weak in, but Ireland are strong in, Coetzee, has been ruled out for nine months with injury, can we sign a medical joker until he recovers?"

IRFU "NO"

Connacht ""Hi our NIQ player and 3 IQ outhalfs are all injuried, can we bring in a NIQ medical Joker for 3 weeks (after all Jack Carty suffered a calf injury in national camp on Monday, so its kind of your fault), he trained with us earlier in the season so will up to speed already, meaning he can cover this weekend , and won't cost a penny"

IRFU "NO"

Munster "Hi our NIQ player in an position we are OK in, and Ireland are strong in, Saili, has been ruled out for four months with injury, can we sign a medical joker until he recovers?

IRFU "Certainly and you can keep him when Saili recovers to the end of the season as well."

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by rodders on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 11:34 am

I thought the issue with Connacht was they have no money left in their budget to to pay any more wages - not that they aren't allowed to sign anyone?
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 11:42 am

He was offering to play for free though rodders, that in itself may have been a legal minefield

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 3:10 pm

Munster haven't had a NIQ centre since 2003

For a continuous line

Francis Saili: 2015–present
Andrew Smith 2014–15
Casey Laulala: 2012–14
Lifeimi Mafi: 2006–12
Christian Cullen: 2003–07

Thats not to mention also having at centre:

Jason Jones-Hughes: 2003–04
Trevor Halstead: 2005–07
Rua Tipoki: 2007–09
Paul Warwick: 2007–11 (not primary as centre)
Jean de Villiers: 2009–10
Sam Tuitupou: 2010–11
Will Chambers 2011–12
Pat Howard: 2014–15
Jaco Taute: 2016–present

You would think that if the IRFU were stamping down on having NIQ players for long periods of time in one position, they would start at Munsters centre problem, they have had at least one, mostly 2 NIQ centres since 2003.
You would think they would make Munster produce them rather than allow them 2 to the end of the season.

Not having a go at Munster as a lot of these players were cover for a while, some played more on the wing and others really added to an area Munster were weak in.

But its hard to see the IRFU's logic, in some of its decisions, for other provinces.


Last edited by Kingshu on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a little more)

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 3:21 pm

I really don't get this Munster hate on here. Yes, Munster have had many NIQ players in the centres but it is not an area where Ireland are weak so no development of centres in Ireland is being compromised (see Ulster, Leinster and not long ago Connacht).

Munster have also produced many IQ players over the years in areas where Ireland were struggling in.

All provinces develop players and also have NIQ players (some NIQ players bring valued experience to help other positions not just their own).

I am not a fan of what is happening to Connacht and Ulster regarding the (non)use of NIQ players but it really isn't all Munsters fault.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 3:34 pm

eirebilly wrote:I really don't get this Munster hate on here. Yes, Munster have had many NIQ players in the centres but it is not an area where Ireland are weak so no development of centres in Ireland is being compromised (see Ulster, Leinster and not long ago Connacht).

Munster have also produced many IQ players over the years in areas where Ireland were struggling in.

All provinces develop players and also have NIQ players (some NIQ players bring valued experience to help other positions not just their own).

I am not a fan of what is happening to Connacht and Ulster regarding the (non)use of NIQ players but it really isn't all Munsters fault.

Hate? Ah here...
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 3:45 pm

Kingshu wrote:Munster haven't had a NIQ centre since 2003

For a continuous line

Francis Saili: 2015–present
Andrew Smith 2014–15
Casey Laulala: 2012–14
Lifeimi Mafi: 2006–12
Christian Cullen: 2003–07

Thats not to mention also having at centre:

Jason Jones-Hughes: 2003–04
Trevor Halstead: 2005–07
Rua Tipoki: 2007–09
Paul Warwick: 2007–11 (not primary as centre)
Jean de Villiers: 2009–10
Sam Tuitupou: 2010–11
Will Chambers 2011–12
Pat Howard: 2014–15
Jaco Taute: 2016–present

You would think that if the IRFU were stamping down on having NIQ players for long periods of time in one position, they would start at Munsters centre problem, they have had at least one, mostly 2 NIQ centres since 2003.
You would think they would make Munster produce them rather than allow them 2 to the end of the season.

Not having a go at Munster as a lot of these players were cover for a while, some played more on the wing and others really added to an area Munster were weak in.

But its hard to see the IRFU's logic, in some of its decisions, for other provinces.

Munster's last two inside centres were IQed - James Downey and Denis Hurley.

You might also have included in that list some of the IQed centres Munster have had such as Mike Mullins, Rob Henderson, John Kelly, Barry Murphy, Jason Holland & Keith Earls.

Munster have had to lose Mafi, Warwick, both great longterm servants of Munster. Warwick is an Irish citizen (through his wife who is from Cork).



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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Golden on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 4:47 pm

Sin é wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Munster haven't had a NIQ centre since 2003

For a continuous line

Francis Saili: 2015–present
Andrew Smith 2014–15
Casey Laulala: 2012–14
Lifeimi Mafi: 2006–12
Christian Cullen: 2003–07

Thats not to mention also having at centre:

Jason Jones-Hughes: 2003–04
Trevor Halstead: 2005–07
Rua Tipoki: 2007–09
Paul Warwick: 2007–11 (not primary as centre)
Jean de Villiers: 2009–10
Sam Tuitupou: 2010–11
Will Chambers 2011–12
Pat Howard: 2014–15
Jaco Taute: 2016–present

You would think that if the IRFU were stamping down on having NIQ players for long periods of time in one position, they would start at Munsters centre problem, they have had at least one, mostly 2 NIQ centres since 2003.
You would think they would make Munster produce them rather than allow them 2 to the end of the season.

Not having a go at Munster as a lot of these players were cover for a while, some played more on the wing and others really added to an area Munster were weak in.

But its hard to see the IRFU's logic, in some of its decisions, for other provinces.

Munster's last two inside centres were IQed - James Downey and Denis Hurley.

You might also have included in that list some of the IQed centres Munster have had such as Mike Mullins, Rob Henderson, John Kelly, Barry Murphy, Jason Holland & Keith Earls.


Munster have had to lose Mafi, Warwick, both great longterm servants of Munster. Warwick is an Irish citizen (through his wife who is from Cork).


So your saying in the last 10 years you've produced a winger who can play centre and Barry Murphy who got 4 Ireland caps?

Not exactly proving the point that the NIQs havent hurt bringing through Irish centres.

EDIT: Plus Downeys 1 cap against Canada while at Munster.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 5:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Munster haven't had a NIQ centre since 2003

For a continuous line

Francis Saili: 2015–present
Andrew Smith 2014–15
Casey Laulala: 2012–14
Lifeimi Mafi: 2006–12
Christian Cullen: 2003–07

Thats not to mention also having at centre:

Jason Jones-Hughes: 2003–04
Trevor Halstead: 2005–07
Rua Tipoki: 2007–09
Paul Warwick: 2007–11 (not primary as centre)
Jean de Villiers: 2009–10
Sam Tuitupou: 2010–11
Will Chambers 2011–12
Pat Howard: 2014–15
Jaco Taute: 2016–present

You would think that if the IRFU were stamping down on having NIQ players for long periods of time in one position, they would start at Munsters centre problem, they have had at least one, mostly 2 NIQ centres since 2003.
You would think they would make Munster produce them rather than allow them 2 to the end of the season.

Not having a go at Munster as a lot of these players were cover for a while, some played more on the wing and others really added to an area Munster were weak in.

But its hard to see the IRFU's logic, in some of its decisions, for other provinces.

Munster's last two inside centres were IQed - James Downey and Denis Hurley.

You might also have included in that list some of the IQed centres Munster have had such as Mike Mullins, Rob Henderson, John Kelly, Barry Murphy, Jason Holland & Keith Earls.

Munster have had to lose Mafi, Warwick, both great longterm servants of Munster. Warwick is an Irish citizen (through his wife who is from Cork).




I was using the extensive list of NIQ centres to show that centre has clearly been a problem issue for Munster for some time. Listing some IQ centres doesn't make it not a problem position, or there would be no NIQ centres after a while.

Its also a taken that scrum half is a problem for Ulster, I don't need to point out Paul Marshall has 3 international caps, its still a problem position.
Backrow is another problem position with Coetzee, Williams and before him Wannenburg, pointing out internationals like Ferris and Henry, still doesn't make it less of a problem position.

What I am pointing out is that in Ulster, (and today Connachts) problem positions they have been refused NIQ medical jokers or continuing with a NIQ player and have been forced to search for IQ options, where as Munster have been allowed a NIQ player and a medical joker, in a problem area that goes back 13 years, and are even allowed to keep him until the end of the year and will most likely go 14 years with having a NIQ centre, and maybe even longer.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Kingshu on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 6:32 pm

Also to add Connacht have 5 NIQ players and were not allowed a 3 week NIQ medical joker, and were told to find an IQ one.
Munster had 7 and were allowed an 8th NIQ injury cover player and can keep him to seasons end.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 4:04 pm

Watching the Munster game, Racing already 2 high tackles for only one penalty and no Yellow card. That's what I like to see from referee's, common sense.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 4:37 pm

I guess that I am the only one on here watching the Racing92 - Munster game. It has been an amazing first 40 from Munster, 0 - 25 with Munster scoring 3 try's. A mix of vintage forward power play and current back play.

If ye get the chance, check out CJ stander's try, it was something to behold.

Not very good news for Leicester Tigers as if it continues and Munster get the TBP then the Tigers will be effectively out of Europe.
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 4:48 pm

7 Cork
3 Limerick
1 Tipperary
1 Dub
1 IQ saffer
1 Temp Saffer
1 Kiwi.

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 4:50 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:7 Cork
3 Limerick
1 Tipperary
1 Dub
1 IQ saffer
1 Temp Saffer
1 Kiwi.

Deze ploeg is sterke mijn jonge thumbsup
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 4:53 pm

Ja hoor heel sterk en meestal vanuit Cork....

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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

Post by eirebilly on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 4:55 pm

Mag niks uit waar zij vandaan komt, zij zijn Munster thumbsup
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Re: Munster Nucifora's Pet Province?

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