Euro cups - halfway point

Given all the debate about which teams / leagues should be ithe various comps I thought I would have a little comparison

In both comps pro 12 teams lead 3 of the groups, ap and t14 one each

3 groups with ap teams at the bottom in the euro cup one french one pro 12 at the bottom

Minnows cup 2 french teams at the bottom of the tables one pro 12 one ap and one romanian

2 pro 12 teams unbeaten in in the euro cup, one ap no french

3 pro 12 teams unbeaten in the minnows cup - one ap no french

euro cup 1 french team 2 ap teams without a win - no pro 12

minnows cup 2 french one ap without a win.  NO pro 12 without a win

Interesting turnaround from last year where the pro 12 teams did not do well.  this year its definitely the pro 12 with the best record of the 3 leagues so far.  Mind you I think Sarries look the best team overall.

Saracens the best team in Europe, you can't argue with that when they are European champions.  However, after Saracens and Wasps, I think the English teams are looking very mediocre.  The Irish teams have had a brilliant round and I hope Connacht continue it tomorrow against Wasps, massive ask of them as it is.

Personally, I think Clermont Auvergne have the strongest squad in Europe but aren't as well coached or settled in their game as Saracens.  Munster are on something of a nitro trip after a lot of things have clicked all at once.  Foley's passing has galvinized them, Erasmus has done brilliantly and their big players like Murray and O'Mahoney are in exceptional form.

The tournament is greatly poised, all 3 leagues have very legitimate teams as contenders.

It's only halfway. Looks like the Irish/Scottish teams have recovered their form somewhat but there's another three rounds to go.

Some eyebrow raisers in the Challenge Cup.

Did Cardiff really beat Bath's first team 28-3 or was there some second-stringers involved?

Ospreys hockeyed Grenoble at their home patch putting 50 points on them.

Even Treviso notched an away win against Bayonne.

Its been a cracker of a euro cup so far. Yup its only halfway and although I can't work it out no doubt some sides have had their easier games and some their harder games so far

Wasps are in 3rd in their group but with a game in hand - but thats against the group leaders is it not?

Clermont didn't look great against Ulster today  Glasgows win in  France was both unexpected but deserved.

Is the balance shifting despite the poverty of the pro 12? or is this just swing and roundabouts / incidental / it will all even out at the end?

"just swing and roundabouts / incidental / it will all even out at the end"

TJ wrote:Its been a cracker of a euro cup so far. ?

Interesting I thought it was boring and dying an ugly death a short while ago.

How times change

Pot Hale wrote:It's only halfway.   Looks like the Irish/Scottish teams have recovered their form somewhat but there's another three rounds to go.

Some eyebrow raisers in the Challenge Cup.

Did Cardiff really beat Bath's first team 28-3 or was there some second-stringers involved?

Ospreys hockeyed Grenoble at their home patch putting 50 points on them.

Even Treviso notched an away win against Bayonne.

Very few teams take the Challenge cup seriously -- hence the strange results.
The competition is pretty worthless to be honest, especially now the number of non 6N teams has been drastically reduce from the old Heineken Cup

Minnows cup is a waste of time indeed and my team play in it. all it did for Edinburgh having a good run in it last year was to distract them from the league

If the winners had entry into the main event it would make more sense.

I saw somewhere that Sale had given up on the euro cup already hence not trying against sarries. Teams giving up can skew results

I hope Sale gave up otherwise the result was truly awful.

The problem with the revamped Champions cup is there is nothing to play for after you lose the first three games and realistically after you lose the first two.

Under the old competition you could still improve your ranking - no longer true now.
This distorts some groups and makes a number of 4th, 5th, 6th round matches foregone conclusions.

Pot Hale wrote:It's only halfway.   Looks like the Irish/Scottish teams have recovered their form somewhat but there's another three rounds to go.

Some eyebrow raisers in the Challenge Cup.

Did Cardiff really beat Bath's first team 28-3 or was there some second-stringers involved?

Ospreys hockeyed Grenoble at their home patch putting 50 points on them.

Even Treviso notched an away win against Bayonne.

On the face of it an unexpected result but when down to the fourth choice academy FH and wih Auterac, Catt, Thomas, Attwood, Charteris, Louw, Faletau, Fotuali, Ford, Joseph, Banahan and Watson not in Cardiff - mainly due to injury.

Expecting several of the above to make an appearance at home on Thursday night.

Geoff, I would have thought given there are now three runner up places up for grabs rather than the previous two, would make the pools more competitive? - not withstanding the pool with the Italian side.
Any review of standings needs to be after both a home and away game - ie. second, fourth and obviously final round.

Good point recwatcher about the home and away games.

I was just a bit bored so thought I would have a look. Only as a piece of fun.

TJ wrote:Minnows cup is a waste of time indeed and my team play in it.  all it did for Edinburgh having a good run in it last year was to distract them from the league

If the winners had entry into the main event it would make more sense.

I saw somewhere that Sale had given up on the euro cup already hence not trying against sarries.  Teams giving up can skew results

Therein lies the problem with the new formats - no benefit for most of the teams. Scrapping the influence of competition results on future seeding means there is no point in also-rans jeopardising their league chances by fielding strong teams in the Cups. The ERCC now favours far fewer clubs: those that have big squads and can field quality sides in both the Cup and to qualify through their League.

The Pro12 sides may be doing better than last season for now (no RWC?), but they will find it very difficult to sustain that unless they are lucky with injuries. Alternatively they could concentrate on Europe at the expense of the League - wouldn't it be a hoot if the Champions didn't qualify for next year's comp!

Agree with the point about linking places in pool with something to incentivise. I think it needs to be prize money.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Geoff, I would have thought given there are now three runner up places up for grabs rather than the previous two, would make the pools more competitive? - not withstanding the pool with the Italian side.
Any review of standings needs to be after both a home and away game - ie. second, fourth and obviously final round.

Not really - you have a statistically better chance of qualifying from second place which helps but the non qualifying 2nd places and finishing 3rd are now totally meaningless that was not true under the old system.
Take Exeter for example if theylose today - they might as well put out their Academy in the last 3 games - nothing to play for

Wasps win rather changes my analysis

TJ wrote:Wasps win rather changes my analysis

Well you did comment halfway through the third round - a bit premature perhaps.  

Toulon look good for a BP win against Scarlets at the moment. So by end of this round, it'll be as predicted by most sensible people last year - Irish provinces and Glasgow only had a bit of a setback due to RWC soaking up more of their squad's top players.   That hasn't happened this year.  And it's perhaps arguable that England's out of window international last weekend didn't do relevant Premiership clubs any favours this week.  Probably the best result of the weekend is Glasgow's win away to Racing 92.

What is interesting is that there may be other pools other than Pool 2 that may have their own Zebre and possibility of runner-up spots.  Wasps, Connacht and Toulouse could cancel each other out for the second runners up spot. Racing have played 2, lost 2.  If they were to somehow lose to Glasgow next week in Scotstoun, then they're bunched even with the game in hand.  Ditto Leicester in Pool 1 in their home game against Munster next weekend.  And if Montpellier beat Castres next weekend, then it'll be a battle between themselves and Leinster for top spot.  Could both of them go through?

Sale Sharks look like cannon fodder in Pool 3 with no points, and highly unlikely to win against Saracens next week and possibly give up another 5 pointer.  And Exeter are not looking in great shape in Pool 5 with a single point from two games - but we'll wait and see how their game today against Bordeaux-Begles goes.

Munster, Wasps, Saracens, Leinster and Clermont all looking full-value for topping their pools so far.  But some of them could get dislodged next weekend.

Exeter looked hard done by to me - Short looked to have clearly got the ball on the line while still in contact so no idea how they decided that wasn't a try.  Possible off the ball holding back for BB's try too ...

IMO he lost control of the ball before reaching the line but its a matter of mm

I think his hand was on the ball still when it touched the line ... true you hear a lot about 'in control' but I'm not sure where that comes from as I've not seen it mentioned anywhere in the laws ... it wasn't knocked on at the point it touched the line and his hand was in contact - try for me.

Heaf wrote:Exeter looked hard done by to me - Short looked to have clearly got the ball on the line while still in contact so no idea how they decided that wasn't a try.  Possible off the ball holding back for BB's try too ...

Unfortunately that's rugby, I can't think of any other sport, where the officials have so much sway, with no genuine comeback on their decision making.
My own tem today had 2 tries ruled out for infringements, that were later bought into question by the pundits as been wrong, either the IRB move to fully paid professional officials or this continues to be the conversations after every game.

unfortunately true ...

Disregard us from the cup.

Dean has ALWAYS and will continue to use this competition to blood young academy lads and up the EQ quota.

Players like Sean Robinson, Will Witty, Scott Wilson, Zac Kibirige, (and Brett Conon this weekend) etc have all been blooded in this way.

and in steps McCall with the excuses. What a surprise.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38284956

So where are the fixtures dates for Rounds 5 and 6.

No consideration of travelling supporters who would like to make plans before Christmas

3 days is ample time.

Like squeezing the QF's and SF's so close together the new regime puts supporters last.

In the interest of full disclosure this is not a problem for me because I am going to Exeter for 3 nights so already sorted but most are not in that happy position.

Tight group between Edinburgh and Quins now, wish I could go to France to watch us play Stade because Quins usually do disproportionately well in France even though our away form is non existent right now.