Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

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Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by KP_fan on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 11:25 am

First topic message reminder :

So Dhoni is gone.....amidst  lot of of glowing tributes...but we  suspect he was asked to go...his time was up quite sometime back.....and the BCCI did it in a nice way...
It's also being said that the Champions Trophy will be his retirement tournament if he performs vs Eng...else this might be his end series



Ind ODI squad: KL Rahul, Shikhar Dhawan, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni, Manish Pandey, Kedar Jadhav, Yuvraj Singh, Ajinkya Rahane, Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Amit Mishra, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Umesh Yadav


Ind T20I squad: KL Rahul, Mandeep Singh, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni (wk), Yuvraj Singh, Suresh Raina, Rishabh Pant (wk), Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Yuzvendra Chahal, Manish Pandey, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Ashish Nehra


for completeness sake here are the Eng squads




England ODI squad:
Moeen AliJonny BairstowJake BallSam BillingsJos ButtlerLiam DawsonAlex HalesEoin Morgan(c)Liam PlunkettAdil RashidJoe RootJason RoyBen StokesDavid WilleyChris Woakes,

England T20I squad:
Moeen AliJake BallSam BillingsJos ButtlerLiam DawsonAlex HalesChris JordanTymal MillsEoin Morgan(c)Liam PlunkettAdil RashidJoe RootJason RoyBen StokesDavid Willey,


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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 6:20 am

The bowling department continues to be a concern for India. Not too worried about Bumrah as of now, yes he had a terrible off day, but that can happen and he has already shown he has it in him to come back from a bad start or a bad day.
Umesh though is a major concern. Last year it seemed he's finally bringing about some consistency, but its the same old stuff with him, for each forward step, he takes 2 backwards.
Perhaps it should be Bhuvneshwar Kumar. Has a chance of swinging a few balls at the top and taking an early wicket or 2, and if last IPL is any indication, his skills at death bowling has improved significantly.
Young Hardik Pandya has done alright with the ball for an all-rounder. In fact he was better than the frontline seamers in the last game, and did a pretty decent job in the New Zealand series as well.
Jadeja is accurate and keep doing a job in the middle order. And the package he brings, as India's best fielder, and the ability to score a few runs makes him a safe pick. R Ashwin's ODI performances have really not matched his test performances. As I suggested earlier, the team management should seriously consider bringing in Amit Mishra. Ashwin certainly is Ashwin, and there is every chance that he'll be back, but Mishra is a much better ODI bowler than what he's in tests, and on a good day, can take wickets at any stage in the innings.
Hoping the tracks for the next 2 games would have something for the bowlers.......

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by wisden on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 3:25 pm

Is Shami injured again?

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 3:30 pm

JDizzle wrote:
KP_fan wrote:the ground in Kolkata is a lot bigger and the pitch always has something for the seamer or spinner
Cuttack is the other venue another Patta

in highlights i saw Yuv fell to an unlucky trickle down the leg side and Dhoni beaten for pace.....
batting first Ind could get 400 also in Cuttack
Jake Ball has impressed with the ball each time I have seen him....in addition to skill he has enthusiasm and willingness to really bend his back.
I do agree there is gotta be a bit more for bowlers in the pitches for ODIs......NZ series was indeed better....Aus series was most horrible.

And England could chase it, with the batting line up they have!

Question marks about England's bowling attach again - does Willey offer enough out of the first 10 to be a lock? Ball is promising, but England miss a genuine wicket taker in the middle overs - unfortunately not many Starcs about.

Wood would be the nearest thing, but he is made of glass.

Sensational knocks from Kohl (par for the course for him) and Jadhav. No matter the pitch, chasing 350 is not easy.

Often think if the England batting line up faced the England bowling line up they could get 500
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:28 pm

Shami is not fully fit as yet.......

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:31 pm

An added reason to consider Bhuvneshwar over Umesh is that the CT will be played in England, where the ball is likely to swing a bit. His test record in England is absolutely brilliant, though this is a different format, Bhuvi is likely to make better use of the conditions.......

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by KP_fan on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:52 pm

msp83 wrote:An added reason to consider Bhuvneshwar over Umesh is that the CT will be played in England, where the ball is likely to swing a bit. His test record in England is absolutely brilliant, though this is a different format, Bhuvi is likely to make better use of the conditions.......

by that criteria...Rahane should open...as he is the best batsman for India is swinging / seaming conditons.....though the ODI pitches in Eng are also getting towards 300 the par score level
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:10 pm

But Rahane hasn't done it consistently in ODIs. Remember KPF, you, me and Shanky had this discussion some time back, and I had agreed with you that he had to be persisted with. But I have come around to the view that Rahane at best, can be a reserve opener in ODIs. Not a modern middle order player, and even as an opener, think (I hate to say this) Rohit Sharma is a head of him, and KL Rahul has earned a run ahead of him. But Rahane has to play this series ahead of Shikhar Dhawan....... That will give him an opportunity to finally establish himself, and also keep Rahul focused on the job at hand, the lad at times tends to get a bit carried away....... And when FTB Sharma comes back, he would know at the back of his mind, that he just can't afford to have too many slip ups.......

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 8:22 am

Sir Christopher Woakes
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 8:52 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Sir Christopher Woakes

5 overs
3 maidens
14 runs
3 wickets

notworthy notworthy notworthy notworthy notworthy
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 8:58 am

Extremely surprised they've dropped Rashid for plunkett
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 10:26 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Extremely surprised they've dropped Rashid for plunkett

And as such England don't take any wickets in the middle overs, facing a big total again now
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 10:52 am

Ball, Stokes, Plunkett all bowling utter dross
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:03 am

261/3 off 40.

Excellent batting from these two - destructive for the boundaries but also streetwise when settling for singles. However, poor bowling from much of England's attack as Olly says.

Unless we get a wicket soon, India could end up pushing 400.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:05 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Sir Christopher Woakes

5 overs
3 maidens
14 runs
3 wickets

notworthy notworthy notworthy notworthy notworthy


You should know better by now. England just flattering to deceive once again. Rolling Eyes

I think I am starting to develop a genuine hatred of the England cricket team. Forever getting our hopes up...only to dash them, over and over...


So, it looks like India will set around 320-330 for England to chase. I predict we will be 250 all out with 5 overs to spare.


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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:06 am

Ben Stokes is an atrocious one day bowler

literally has the worst economy rate of bowlers to bowl over 2500 balls I think
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by alfie on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:11 am

Yes. Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India. Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:12 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Sir Christopher Woakes

5 overs
3 maidens
14 runs
3 wickets

notworthy notworthy notworthy notworthy notworthy


You should know better by now. England just flattering to deceive once again. Rolling Eyes

I think I am starting to develop a genuine hatred of the England cricket team. Forever getting our hopes up...only to dash them, over and over...


So, it looks like India will set around 320-330 for England to chase.
I predict we will be 250 all out with 5 overs to spare.

Dyre - unless we get some wickets soon, I'm sure it's going to be north of that!

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:20 am

guildfordbat wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Sir Christopher Woakes

5 overs
3 maidens
14 runs
3 wickets

notworthy notworthy notworthy notworthy notworthy


You should know better by now. England just flattering to deceive once again. Rolling Eyes

I think I am starting to develop a genuine hatred of the England cricket team. Forever getting our hopes up...only to dash them, over and over...


So, it looks like India will set around 320-330 for England to chase.
I predict we will be 250 all out with 5 overs to spare.

Dyre - unless we get some wickets soon, I'm sure it's going to be north of that!


Ugh! I hadn't counted on Singh & Dhoni going into T20 mode for the last 10 overs. You're right though, its looking more like England will have to chase 350-360.
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by alfie on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:28 am

With Yuvraj out at last they have to try and keep it to something like 350. With the way Plunkett now seems to be unravelling I'm not confident of that .

I know this is the New England ODI Team. But can't help feeling Broad might be better employed here than in the BBL...

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:35 am

alfie wrote:Yes.  Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India.  Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

Hi Alfie - I hope so but don't have the confidence that England could get back in the box seats if they lose 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (as India did in this and the previous game). Probably the difference between batting deep and having reliable quality batsmen.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:41 am

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Yes.  Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India.  Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

Hi Alfie - I hope so but don't have the confidence that England could get back in the box seats if they lose 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (as India did in this and the previous game). Probably the difference between batting deep and having reliable quality batsmen.

Indeed. Once you get past Roy, Hales and Root, our next "reliable" batsman is probably Moeen. I actually fancy him more batting down the order...the problem being he could run out of partners quite quickly.
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:48 am

Wow - this is looking pretty ugly for England now. Could be looking at chasing 370 Shocked

With the added factors of scoreboard pressure and batting under lights I think they'll fold quite spectacularly. Sad


Congrats to Singh and Dhoni for batting England out of the game, but we haven't helped ourselves with a lot of pretty shoddy bowling and fielding.
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by alfie on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:53 am

Going to be nearer 380.

Can't see them chasing that ; though I do think the batting is a bit better than you fellows are suggesting. Certainly I doubt they'd recover from 60/4 (superior Indian spin attack the main reason) ; but if they get a platform I'd have fancied a 350 chase on this.

But probably not the likely 380...

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 12:01 pm

So 381 it is.

Not a chance in hell England will get anywhere near that. Figure India will win by 70-100 runs.


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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 12:02 pm

Why did willey only bowl five overs? Injured?
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 12:07 pm

England got it massively wrong dropping Rashid - yes he goes for runs, but he is literally our only wicket taking threat in the middle overs, and with him out we were milked.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by alfie on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 12:07 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Why did willey only bowl five overs? Injured?

They were drawing straws. He was the lucky one...

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 12:30 pm

alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Why did willey only bowl five overs? Injured?

They were drawing straws.   He was the lucky one...

laughing

In all honesty I don't think it would have made much difference even if he'd bowled his allocation.
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 1:47 pm

England setting up a platform..... With Buttler and Stokes to come, and Roy and Root well set, by no means are they out of it. Bowling under lights may not be easy for Ashwin and Jadeja as the ball is likely to get wet and difficult to grip.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 1:51 pm

India can't relax. Roy dropped by Bumrah of Pandya. Can't afford those, very difficult chance, but.......
Thought Virat missed a trick by not bowling Bhuvneshwar for an additional over or 2.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 1:52 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Yes.  Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India.  Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

Hi Alfie - I hope so but don't have the confidence that England could get back in the box seats if they lose 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (as India did in this and the previous game). Probably the difference between batting deep and having reliable quality batsmen.

Indeed. Once you get past Roy, Hales and Root, our next "reliable" batsman is probably Moeen. I actually fancy him more batting down the order...the problem being he could run out of partners quite quickly.

Reliable in the sense he averages 22 in ODIs?

If youre chasing 380 haveing Trott and Boycott in at 5 and 6 isnt much use. England need to socre cosnitently rapidly through the order to get there. They have the line up to do that, even more so with Woakes and Willey at 9 10. The last 20 overs guys likje Buttler will have absolute freedom to try and make something happen. Being 4 down after 20 woudlnt event put them compeltely out of it.

Im confused as to how Englands firepwoer and depth has suddenly become a problem for them chasing down big scores, when their lack of it was previously always cited as the reason they couldnt get over 300. Now they do more often than not we are saying they arent solid enough?

As it is they are building that sound base first and in a very strong position to accelrate on. Of course wickets can change that quickly, but there is only a need to play in rather than rebuild slowly with this position and line up as that happens.

If they lose the game, which they still likely will, Im sure as heck not going to blame the batting when the bowling got flubbed for the second game in a row. Pitches and opposition aside...its really not acceptable to be shipping that may runs when you have 6 front line bowling options.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:00 pm

England keeping up close to the RRR, but Ashwin took out Root in his first over.......
At 138-2 in 21 overs, the chase is pretty much on.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:03 pm

*awaiting criticism of Root for only getting 54*

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by eirebilly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:08 pm

In years gone by I would have been very comfortable and confident in having Morgan in the middle for a big chase. These days, I simply don't. He needs a very big (and quick) score today or I simply do not see him being there on merit.
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:08 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Yes.  Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India.  Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

Hi Alfie - I hope so but don't have the confidence that England could get back in the box seats if they lose 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (as India did in this and the previous game). Probably the difference between batting deep and having reliable quality batsmen.

Indeed. Once you get past Roy, Hales and Root, our next "reliable" batsman is probably Moeen. I actually fancy him more batting down the order...the problem being he could run out of partners quite quickly.

Reliable in the sense he averages 22 in ODIs?

If youre chasing 380 haveing Trott and Boycott in at 5 and 6 isnt much use. England need to socre cosnitently rapidly through the order to get there. They have the line up to do that, even more so with Woakes and Willey at 9 10. The last 20 overs guys likje Buttler will have absolute freedom to try and make something happen. Being 4 down after 20 woudlnt event put them compeltely out of it.

Im confused as to how Englands firepwoer and depth has suddenly become a problem for them chasing down big scores, when their lack of it was previously always cited as the reason they couldnt get over 300. Now they do more often than not we are saying they arent solid enough?

As it is they are building that sound base first and in a very strong position to accelrate on. Of course wickets can change that quickly, but there is only a need to play in rather than rebuild slowly with this position and line up as  that happens.

If they lose the game, which they still likely will, Im sure as heck not going to blame the batting when the bowling got flubbed for the second game in a row. Pitches and opposition aside...its really not acceptable to be shipping that may runs when you have 6 front line bowling options.


Because England's supposed "firepower and depth" has a nasty habit of misfiring on a fairly regular basis. It was because of our previous success in ODIs that the test team got loaded with those type of players...and that worked out really well, didn't it?

Sure, most of those players on their day can hit big (or at least useful) scores, but its pretty much a coin toss as to whether they actually do or not.

You could put Moeen in the same category, but at least his batting has been more consistent of late (albeit at the expense of his bowling).
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:11 pm

Gooseberry wrote:*awaiting criticism of Root for only getting 54*

That Root is rubbish, isn't he? How can the selectors justify his continued inclusion in the team when he can't covert 50s into 100s?







Didn't want to disappoint you Wink
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:14 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Yes.  Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India.  Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

Hi Alfie - I hope so but don't have the confidence that England could get back in the box seats if they lose 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (as India did in this and the previous game). Probably the difference between batting deep and having reliable quality batsmen.

Indeed. Once you get past Roy, Hales and Root, our next "reliable" batsman is probably Moeen. I actually fancy him more batting down the order...the problem being he could run out of partners quite quickly.

Reliable in the sense he averages 22 in ODIs?

If youre chasing 380 haveing Trott and Boycott in at 5 and 6 isnt much use. England need to socre cosnitently rapidly through the order to get there. They have the line up to do that, even more so with Woakes and Willey at 9 10. The last 20 overs guys likje Buttler will have absolute freedom to try and make something happen. Being 4 down after 20 woudlnt event put them compeltely out of it.

Im confused as to how Englands firepwoer and depth has suddenly become a problem for them chasing down big scores, when their lack of it was previously always cited as the reason they couldnt get over 300. Now they do more often than not we are saying they arent solid enough?

As it is they are building that sound base first and in a very strong position to accelrate on. Of course wickets can change that quickly, but there is only a need to play in rather than rebuild slowly with this position and line up as  that happens.

If they lose the game, which they still likely will, Im sure as heck not going to blame the batting when the bowling got flubbed for the second game in a row. Pitches and opposition aside...its really not acceptable to be shipping that may runs when you have 6 front line bowling options.
With pitches, bats, rules, everything against them, the only reason the bowlers turn up is money. There is not much of a cricketing challenge for them. All down to the batting unit.......

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:16 pm

Jadeja gets Roy. Buttler and Stokes are 2 players who can this situation around for England.......

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by eirebilly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:21 pm

Oh dear. Not looking good now. Cant see England getting within 100 of India now.
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:21 pm

Stokes gone for 1. England 173-4.

...and so the collapse begins...

I think my earlier prediction of 250 all out is looking pretty good right now...


India's spinners are making the England batting lineup their bunnies...
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:22 pm

Gooseberry wrote:*awaiting criticism of Root for only getting 54*

Defending 381, I'm sure India would have been more than happy at the interval break to settle for Root being dismissed for a run a ball 54.

I reiterate that today's (likely) defeat is not down to Root but we do need more from him if we are to win these type of games.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:22 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Yes.  Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India.  Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

Hi Alfie - I hope so but don't have the confidence that England could get back in the box seats if they lose 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (as India did in this and the previous game). Probably the difference between batting deep and having reliable quality batsmen.

Indeed. Once you get past Roy, Hales and Root, our next "reliable" batsman is probably Moeen. I actually fancy him more batting down the order...the problem being he could run out of partners quite quickly.

Reliable in the sense he averages 22 in ODIs?

If youre chasing 380 haveing Trott and Boycott in at 5 and 6 isnt much use. England need to socre cosnitently rapidly through the order to get there. They have the line up to do that, even more so with Woakes and Willey at 9 10. The last 20 overs guys likje Buttler will have absolute freedom to try and make something happen. Being 4 down after 20 woudlnt event put them compeltely out of it.

Im confused as to how Englands firepwoer and depth has suddenly become a problem for them chasing down big scores, when their lack of it was previously always cited as the reason they couldnt get over 300. Now they do more often than not we are saying they arent solid enough?

As it is they are building that sound base first and in a very strong position to accelrate on. Of course wickets can change that quickly, but there is only a need to play in rather than rebuild slowly with this position and line up as  that happens.

If they lose the game, which they still likely will, Im sure as heck not going to blame the batting when the bowling got flubbed for the second game in a row. Pitches and opposition aside...its really not acceptable to be shipping that may runs when you have 6 front line bowling options.


Because England's supposed "firepower and depth" has a nasty habit of misfiring on a fairly regular basis. It was because of our previous success in ODIs that the test team got loaded with those type of players...and that worked out really well, didn't it?

Sure, most of those players on their day can hit big (or at least useful) scores, but its pretty much a coin toss as to whether they actually do or not.

You could put Moeen in the same category, but at least his batting has been more consistent of late (albeit at the expense of his bowling).

Moeens batting isnt consistent in a good sense recently or ever in ODIS...hes only passed 30 once in his last 23 innings! At lewast do some basic fact checking.

And exactly how often has Englands ODI batting been failing? OK the Bangladesh game they lost, even then they got over 200.
Its very rare they arent passing 260 (often with overs to spare) and have passed 300 in 5 of their last 6 completed (all overs or all out) innings ...including a 444/3.
They fire far more often than they fail.

Compare it to where they were 2 years ago and the difference is incredible...they had a run of 18 games without passing 300 inlcuding 5 all outs for under 200.
The last year they havent once failed to pass 200 in a completed innings, and have passed 300 6 times.

Yes not every player fires every time but as a unit they have consitently made good scores and failed far more rarely than the old "relaible" lineups used to.

This team score more runs than any England ODI side ever has.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:23 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:*awaiting criticism of Root for only getting 54*

Defending 381, I'm sure India would have been more than happy at the interval break to settle for Root being dismissed for a run a ball 54.

I reiterate that today's (likely) defeat is not down to Root but we do need more from him if we are to win these type of games.

I see youre laying off your boy Roy for only getting 82, Root got critisized for a similar score in the previous game.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:33 pm

Fabulous spell from Ravindra Jadeja that gave away nothing much. And he got Roy to add to the terrific economy rate of 4.5. Ashwin has taken out Stokes, but he's going for a few. With Jadeja done, who will give Virat the control from one end?

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:35 pm

Goose - you seem to be picking another of your fights in an empty phone box.

Alfie suggested earlier that 360 wouldn't be an impossible target to chase down. That wasn't disagreed with but the point was emphasised that (unlike India with the likes of Kohli and Dhoni) we didn't appear to have the special kind of talent to get us out of a hole if we lost 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (just as India did today and in the previous game).

It was also noted that much of England's bowling had been poor and that, along with some excellent batting today from India and the hosts unlikely to bowl such dross, was why we were in such trouble today.

I don't see anything to disagree with there although I'm sure you will.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:42 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Yes.  Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India.  Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

Hi Alfie - I hope so but don't have the confidence that England could get back in the box seats if they lose 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (as India did in this and the previous game). Probably the difference between batting deep and having reliable quality batsmen.

Indeed. Once you get past Roy, Hales and Root, our next "reliable" batsman is probably Moeen. I actually fancy him more batting down the order...the problem being he could run out of partners quite quickly.

Reliable in the sense he averages 22 in ODIs?

If youre chasing 380 haveing Trott and Boycott in at 5 and 6 isnt much use. England need to socre cosnitently rapidly through the order to get there. They have the line up to do that, even more so with Woakes and Willey at 9 10. The last 20 overs guys likje Buttler will have absolute freedom to try and make something happen. Being 4 down after 20 woudlnt event put them compeltely out of it.

Im confused as to how Englands firepwoer and depth has suddenly become a problem for them chasing down big scores, when their lack of it was previously always cited as the reason they couldnt get over 300. Now they do more often than not we are saying they arent solid enough?

As it is they are building that sound base first and in a very strong position to accelrate on. Of course wickets can change that quickly, but there is only a need to play in rather than rebuild slowly with this position and line up as  that happens.

If they lose the game, which they still likely will, Im sure as heck not going to blame the batting when the bowling got flubbed for the second game in a row. Pitches and opposition aside...its really not acceptable to be shipping that may runs when you have 6 front line bowling options.


Because England's supposed "firepower and depth" has a nasty habit of misfiring on a fairly regular basis. It was because of our previous success in ODIs that the test team got loaded with those type of players...and that worked out really well, didn't it?

Sure, most of those players on their day can hit big (or at least useful) scores, but its pretty much a coin toss as to whether they actually do or not.

You could put Moeen in the same category, but at least his batting has been more consistent of late (albeit at the expense of his bowling).

Moeens batting isnt consistent in a good sense recently or ever in ODIS...hes only passed 30 once in his last 23 innings! At lewast do some basic fact checking.

And exactly how often has Englands ODI batting been failing? OK the Bangladesh game they lost, even then they got over 200.
Its very rare they arent passing 260 (often with overs to spare) and have passed 300 in 5 of their last 6 completed (all overs or all out) innings ...including a 444/3.
They fire far more often than they fail.

Compare it to where they were 2 years ago and the difference is incredible...they had a run of 18 games without passing 300 inlcuding 5 all outs for under 200.
The last year they havent once failed to pass 200 in a completed innings, and have passed 300 6 times.

Yes not every player fires every time but as a unit they have consitently made good scores and failed far more rarely than the old "relaible" lineups used to.

This team score more runs than any England ODI side ever has.


Oh so now you're doing comparisons with where England were 2 YEARS ago? picard

I'm talking about the here and now.

And talking about total runs scored is rather pointless, since par scores change from ground to ground and also depend on the quality of the opposition, weather conditions, boundary sizes etc. Having an effective bowling unit also means you can get away with scoring fewer runs. All that really matters is how many games you WIN.

I'll take your word on your last sentence, since I can't be bothered to do any "fact checking". But it doesn't change the "fact" England are still prone to batting collapses on a pretty regular basis, regardless of where they play, or which format of the game.


And just as I type this Buttler goes for 10 and England are now 206-5.

I really don't know why I'm even replying to you when England are making my case so eloquently... Wink


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:43 pm

With the massive wicket of Buttler, down to a clever wide getting him stumped, now everything pretty much down to Morgan. He's been up to it so far, taking on Ashwin in the very over in which he got Buttler. Ashwin continues to travel, but he has 3 wickets so far......

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:47 pm

msp83 wrote:With the massive wicket of Buttler, down to a clever wide getting him stumped, now everything pretty much down to Morgan. He's been up to it so far, taking on Ashwin in the very over in which he got Buttler. Ashwin continues to travel, but he has 3 wickets so far......

Cue a 100 from Moeen to see England almost home. Laugh
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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by dummy_half on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:55 pm

15 overs and 145 runs to get - modern ODI cricket has that as a realistic target if you've got the wickets in hand. Not sure that being 5 down counts for England having wickets in hand at this stage though...

Last two proper front line batsmen at the crease, and while the lower order have some good ball strikers, I wouldn't bet the mortgage on any of them coming off.

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Re: Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

Post by msp83 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 3:00 pm

Jadhav bowling an over too many it looks like. Kohli seems to think taking pace off is the way to go. But Jadeja is done and Ashwin is about to be. The seamers, Bumrah and Pandya have gone for plenty....... Bumrah, if he hits Yorkers right, will be difficult to get away, but will he trust Bhuvi to do so? Or will he give a couple of overs to Yuvraj?

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