Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

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Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by George Carlin on Sun 08 Jan 2017, 7:41 am

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Not sure if this was picked up by other news outlets but I think that the issues in this piece are worth a more general discussion.

Townsend has been in the game a while now and is usually understated and measured, so he must have lost his sh!t somewhat to speak about this publicly:
Furious Gregor Townsend blasts clubs circling Finn Russell
DUNCAN SMITH
The Scotsman, 6 January 2017

Glasgow Warriors coach Gregor Townsend issued a “hands-off” warning in the strongest possible terms yesterday after reports that his star stand-off Finn Russell has attracted the interest of a number of clubs despite having a year and a half on his contract. Townsend expressed disappointment that at least four teams – understood to be Bath, Gloucester, Toulon and Scotland coach Vern Cotter’s next destination Montpellier – are believed to have been circling following a string of sensational performances by Russell this season. Townsend called for the sport’s governing body to crack down on behaviour he believes to be contrary to the “morality” of rugby. “If clubs are speaking to our players when they have still got 18 months of contract left it is not right,” he said. “If what has been said is correct and four clubs are interested then World Rugby has to do something about it.” The global “regulation 4” regarding player contact does not specify any time restraint, though domestic leagues can instigate their own understanding between member clubs, but stresses that contact should be made through proper channels – in this case the SRU. Townsend continued: “There have been a number of developments in the game, where before there was much more understanding, comprehension, morality in terms of not speaking to players until they got to the last year of their contract, six months in the case of the Aviva Premiership.”

Townsend revealed that Racing 92 had approached Leone Nakarawa on the day of their Champions Cup game last 
season when he still had more than a year left on his deal. Ultimately the Fijian lock was allowed to join the Parisian side for a fee. “Now this is not right. If one of our players is being spoken to about clubs when they clearly have 18 months of their contract left it is clearly not right,” added the coach. “We want to retain our players. Finn will be a Glasgow player for the next season and a half. He is contracted here. “World Rugby need to start dealing with this. You go to the club and ask ‘is this player in contract?’, ‘is it the last few months?’ ‘Is it another year?’ You don’t speak to the individual. I can only go on what is being speculated in the media if this is happening. If it is it is wrong.” The strength of Townsend’s words made clear that this was more than media speculation, of course, and he did admit that he had spoken to Russell, who returns to the Warriors’ starting line-up for tonight’s Guinness Pro12 match against Cardiff Blues at Scotstoun, about the situation, but said: “I would prefer to keep that conversation in house.

“He is aware he is contracted here and it is up to us to get the best out of him when he is still at the club and contribute to the club doing well which is what he is doing. “We have seen improvement and there is a lot more improvement to come.” If a club was to come and make a proper approach Townsend insisted that they would be firmly told that “he is not available”. Russell was already regarded as a highly promising young talent but his stock has rocketed in recent months with sparkling displays for club and country, specifically the double-header against Racing 92 in which he outclassed the great Dan Carter. Townsend, of course, takes over as Scotland coach at the end of the season and agreed that Russell’s nationality made him a different case from Nakarawa.

“Obviously, the Scotland perspective is massively important. You get managed and rested appropriately,” he said. “Leone left for Racing. We allowed him to leave but that situation was wrong as well. A player being approached the day of the game by the opposition in a Champions Cup game in the hotel before we played that team, and then the coaching staff speaking to that player after we play them is wrong. “Clubs will do it to destabilise situations for that player. But we made the decision that Leone can leave. “For Finn and any other number of players who have got 18 months to go on a contract, and we are dealing with Finn, he will be a Glasgow player for that period.”
Taking our wendyball sisters as a basis for comparison, under existing rules between FIFA and the FA (for clubs playing in England), if another club wants to procure the services of a player that is registered with another club they must speak directly with that club and not to the player or his agent. The individual player and the agent who represents him will only be brought in for discussions with the potential purchasing club once the two clubs have agreed on a fee. Failure to do so means fines all round and agents can have their licenses revoked.

Is that what we need here?
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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by marty2086 on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:31 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Can someone please tell me what is so good about this young lad that's warranting all this.


Hes Richie McCaws b@stard son, NZRU put him out to stud and this is the result

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:38 pm

I reminds me of a Pocock than a McCaw when I've seen him. The Welsh lads will obviously have more insight though.

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:42 pm

So he's great at the breakdown? But so is Kvesic...yet he's not rated...so whats the x-factor he seems to have.

itoje had it aswell when he was coming through.

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:44 pm

I can tell you all, I have seen Underhill play, he is worthy of all the hype and more. You will all see this kid in the Aviva next season, you will soon see what we are talking about. In his defence, he never said he wanted to play for Wales, and he always saw himself as English.

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by marty2086 on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:45 pm

Pooly is right, hes very Pocockeque in most way. Not just at the breakdown though he does seem to have that down too, hes a very good tackler and ball carrier too with athleticism it seems to go with it all

Ive only seen him against the Irish provinces but hes went up against guys like SOB and probably got the better of them

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:So he's great at the breakdown? But so is Kvesic...yet he's not rated...so whats the x-factor he seems to have.

itoje had it aswell when he was coming through.

He is everywhere. He covers every blade of grass, if England play him as a 7, he will eclipse anyone in that position by the time he is in his mid twenties.

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:46 pm

Ah well I will wait and see....like when Itoje came up and got taught a lesson by Sean Robinson eh Sgt Whistle laughing

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:48 pm

Haha...something like that GF!

6. Itoje
7. Underhill
8. Vuinipola

Looks pretty good.

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by marty2086 on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:49 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha...something like that GF!

6. Itoje
7. Underhill
8. Vuinipola

Looks pretty good.

As an Irishman, it looks bloody scary Shocked

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:50 pm

Ah well to be fair he sounds interesting. I hope all this hype doesn't hurt the lad and he's allowed to just get on with his game and progression.

ironically in Wales hes kind of out of the spotlight from all the England fans...but at Bath he'll be under quite intensive pressure to perform with all this hype.

Itoje handled it well...we'll see how Underhill goes.

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by marty2086 on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:53 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well to be fair he sounds interesting. I hope all this hype doesn't hurt the lad and he's allowed to just get on with his game and progression.

ironically in Wales hes kind of out of the spotlight from all the England fans...but at Bath he'll be under quite intensive pressure to perform with all this hype.

Itoje handled it well...we'll see how Underhill goes.

Bath did well helping Burgess deal with the furore around his move sure, so should go well Whistle

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by True Raven on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 3:58 pm

There is a lot of hype about him and on here it probably stems from me.

Hes still raw and he is clearly Tips understudy but it was his impact last year that got a lot of people excited.

As LD said he covers every blade of grass, tackles like he's possessed, his line speed is great and will make every effort to get to his man and probably will and incredibly good over the ball. I dont know what else you would want in a back row player.

His handling and ball carrying developed nicely over the year too whilst not at a Tipuric level is more than capable of being involved in attack and was hard to stop 5 metres out last year.

Plus hes got a cool head and very composed.


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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by True Raven on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 4:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well to be fair he sounds interesting. I hope all this hype doesn't hurt the lad and he's allowed to just get on with his game and progression.

ironically in Wales hes kind of out of the spotlight from all the England fans...but at Bath he'll be under quite intensive pressure to perform with all this hype.

Itoje handled it well...we'll see how Underhill goes.

Its why I think he shouldn't have gone. He was developing nicely down here being Tipuric's understudy, now potentially hes got to perform every week like he is Englands main 7 yet is still only his second season and has been injured most of this season.

For 200k hes not exactly gone to play with the A team

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 4:08 pm

Well hopefully Blackadder and his crew will manage him well enough.

There seems to be a good squad of English back row talent in there to allow rotation and progressive development so none of them are overplayed to soon in their career.

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 4:15 pm

Englands back row options are going to look pretty good soon....

Some of the kids coming through sound very impressive....

Underhill
Currys x 2
Evans
Thacker (Maybe if he moves to the back row)
Chick
Ludlum?
Mercer?
Etc etc

Harrison & Clifford (Still relatively young)

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 8:01 pm

Underhill reminds me of Josh vdf

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by profitius on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 10:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha...something like that GF!

6. Itoje
7. Underhill
8. Vuinipola

Looks pretty good.

As an Irishman, it looks bloody scary Shocked


They're not THAT ugly. drumroll
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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 10:56 pm

George Carlin wrote:Taking our wendyball sisters as a basis for comparison, under existing rules between FIFA and the FA (for clubs playing in England), if another club wants to procure the services of a player that is registered with another club they must speak directly with that club and not to the player or his agent. The individual player and the agent who represents him will only be brought in for discussions with the potential purchasing club once the two clubs have agreed on a fee. Failure to do so means fines all round and agents can have their licenses revoked.

Is that what we need here?
Why allow contact with a player under contract at all? Yes, the off season is short, but that means the off season will be busy. Signing players 4, 5, or 6 months early is ridiculous. And longer than that really makes no sense to me.

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by True Raven on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 9:46 am

doctor_grey wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Taking our wendyball sisters as a basis for comparison, under existing rules between FIFA and the FA (for clubs playing in England), if another club wants to procure the services of a player that is registered with another club they must speak directly with that club and not to the player or his agent. The individual player and the agent who represents him will only be brought in for discussions with the potential purchasing club once the two clubs have agreed on a fee. Failure to do so means fines all round and agents can have their licenses revoked.

Is that what we need here?
Why allow contact with a player under contract at all?  Yes, the off season is short, but that means the off season will be busy.  Signing players 4, 5, or 6 months early is ridiculous.  And longer than that really makes no sense to me.  

I'm guessing its to allow the coaches to have a full preseason with their team. I imagine its infuriating for premier league football clubs when on the 31st August at 11:59pm they have an offer for a player and have no time to find a suitable replacement. At least in rugby, teams are generally done with their signings by the end of the current season so can prepare for the season ahead

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by marty2086 on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 10:15 am

doctor_grey wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Taking our wendyball sisters as a basis for comparison, under existing rules between FIFA and the FA (for clubs playing in England), if another club wants to procure the services of a player that is registered with another club they must speak directly with that club and not to the player or his agent. The individual player and the agent who represents him will only be brought in for discussions with the potential purchasing club once the two clubs have agreed on a fee. Failure to do so means fines all round and agents can have their licenses revoked.

Is that what we need here?
Why allow contact with a player under contract at all?  Yes, the off season is short, but that means the off season will be busy.  Signing players 4, 5, or 6 months early is ridiculous.  And longer than that really makes no sense to me.  

Why not?

Whats wrong with planning ahead and knowing what you have available to you?

Would you prefer a mad scramble at the last minute that overinflates the market as we see in football?


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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by doctor_grey on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 2:50 pm

marty2086 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Taking our wendyball sisters as a basis for comparison, under existing rules between FIFA and the FA (for clubs playing in England), if another club wants to procure the services of a player that is registered with another club they must speak directly with that club and not to the player or his agent. The individual player and the agent who represents him will only be brought in for discussions with the potential purchasing club once the two clubs have agreed on a fee. Failure to do so means fines all round and agents can have their licenses revoked.

Is that what we need here?
Why allow contact with a player under contract at all?  Yes, the off season is short, but that means the off season will be busy.  Signing players 4, 5, or 6 months early is ridiculous.  And longer than that really makes no sense to me.  

Why not?

Whats wrong with planning ahead and knowing what you have available to you?

Would you prefer a mad scramble at the last minute that overinflates the market as we see in football?

It is completely illogical for a player to have multiple contracts. Yes, prefer a single contract at a time. No mixed loyalties. period. Simple again...........

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by marty2086 on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 2:55 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Taking our wendyball sisters as a basis for comparison, under existing rules between FIFA and the FA (for clubs playing in England), if another club wants to procure the services of a player that is registered with another club they must speak directly with that club and not to the player or his agent. The individual player and the agent who represents him will only be brought in for discussions with the potential purchasing club once the two clubs have agreed on a fee. Failure to do so means fines all round and agents can have their licenses revoked.

Is that what we need here?
Why allow contact with a player under contract at all?  Yes, the off season is short, but that means the off season will be busy.  Signing players 4, 5, or 6 months early is ridiculous.  And longer than that really makes no sense to me.  

Why not?

Whats wrong with planning ahead and knowing what you have available to you?

Would you prefer a mad scramble at the last minute that overinflates the market as we see in football?

It is completely illogical for a player to have multiple contracts.  Yes, prefer a single contract at a time.  No mixed loyalties.  period.  Simple again...........

So you want players to run contracts down them find a new club? Pick up their lives and move all at the last minute?

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 3:01 pm

It would give too much power to clubs to under pay as well. Are current payoffs linked purely on the value of the players contract or agreed between clubs?

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by doctor_grey on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 3:03 pm

Gents, can we at least agree signing contracts a year in advance is nuts? Even six months in advance can lead to mixed loyalties. Perhaps a month or so before the end of the season?

I am supposed to be the Luddite here, but you all make me seem like an anarchist...............

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Re: Player Poaching & Transfer Ethics

Post by marty2086 on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 3:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It would give too much power to clubs to under pay as well. Are current payoffs linked purely on the value of the players contract or agreed between clubs?

Agreed between clubs but has a base on the value of the contract, as Bath have apparently set a steep price for George Ford

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