The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I stepped out and she stepped in again
I stepped out and she stepped in again
learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball


In thinking about recent goings-on at union level within the PRO12, I was reminded of the lyrics of this old song as unions, corporate interests, private investors, Welsh benefactors, and sundry money-makers make their various moves on the PRO12 dance floor.  Scotland and Ireland seem to be bashfully eyeing up the investor lads on one side of the hall, fluttering their eyelashes, whilst on the other side, the Welsh bennys (as they're affectionately known Wink ) are making tapes and throwing shapes, whilst secretly hoping eagerly that they might get a chance to sign the WRU's card for a dance or two.  Meanwhile, the Italians dither in the middle wondering where they should be but won't tell anyone that they don't know even the music.  

But for now the band has taken a break whilst the visiting Europeans and Anglo heavies make their way onto the floor to start their version of French/Anglo hopscotch involving a number of bulky partners, foreign tap dancers, celtic coaches, and comic millionaires.

It's a good a time as any for a quick cuppa and a chance to talk about where the PRO12 is going with all the plans for expansion to US and Europe suddenly gone quiet, some league quality improvements, big weekend derbies, more neutral officials, and what else is on the horizon for upcoming changes within the PRO12.

The looming spectre of dwindling money and funding ever more expensive teams for the future seems to be the next big issue and where that is all going to come from.   Hopes of improved TV deals, better sponsors and business supporters of the league remain a distant aspiration - although the recent appointment of a commercial director to work alongside Martin Anayi on securing the best deals possible seems to be a step in the right direction.  Some are holding their whisth on that one.

Ownership and financing of the teams themselves is the most urgent and vexing issue facing the four unions operating in the PRO12.  Over the last number of months, the SRU have been making a lot of noise and some news headlines with their plans to bring in private investment to its two Scottish clubs to help meet some of the ongoing costs involved.   The SRU says it can't continue to finance the two teams at current levels of revenue and costs, and they need to bring in private investors/business to meet a substantial portion of the costs in return for a stake in one or both of the two clubs.  How much that stake would be is not clear as the SRU would want to keep their hand in the two clubs responsible for generating its line of test players, but whether that would be a 51% stake or less remains to be seen.   A voting process in late 2016 saw members give the green light to the Scottish Union to pursue this path of identifying and securing potential investment but only time will tell if it will draw in any worthwhile investors.

Italian rugby seems to lurch from one crisis to the next with the FIR having to bail out both Treviso and Zebre in recent times with substantial commitments of money.  After the last crisis, which saw a number of players leave the two clubs, it is Treviso who have fared better with the backing of Bennetton, and it is Zebre who are staring down the barrel of closure at season end once again.  A new franchise, based in Rome, is being rumoured to be on the cards with the FIR willing to put financial support into its development.   For many within the PRO12, and without, the Italian project seems to be a wasted exercise and just amounts to weekly humiliation as opposition teams pile up the points, regularly taking home try bonus points in their victories. For others, the Italian involvement is a long game and one that has to be persevered with.    Yet, the FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby, the company which manages the PRO12 - the latest filings with the Companies Registration Office in Dublin shows that the three Celtic unions remain the founding shareholders, and critically, the beneficiaries of any financial dealing that flow through it - particularly in relation to TV broadcasting deals such as Sky Sports.  This current season, it took until Round 6 before an Italian broadcaster could be secured for covering the home matches of Treviso and Zebre, and with crowds often hovering around 1,500-2,000, this didn't raise many eyebrows.  for the foreseeable future, Italian rugby will stay within the PRO12, and the FIR will continue to be a major stakeholder/financier in the teams.

Irish rugby has been dabbling with business support for a number of years now with the provincial teams drawing in sponsorships, player salary top-ups, and increasing financial support for the various provinces through different types of schemes devised by the individual branches.   Jamie Heaslip recently re-signed with Leinster on what's likely to be his final playing contract before retirement (at age 37).  One of Ireland’s most consistent and durable players, he’s also been one of the most consistently highest paid through his IRFU central contract, and a salary top-up through his Leinster club with a business sponsorship deal with Bank of Ireland.  

But these adhoc business supports and extended sponsorships/player promotions and brand ambassadors do not fill the coffers of the branches sufficiently to grow and expand, it's sufficient only to pay the salaries of 2-3 players to keep them in place against ever higher competing offers from the TV-deal-enriched clubs in England and France.  As the IRFU pointed at the launch of its annual report last June, the IRFU cannot continue to be "the bank of last resort" for the provinces - following a €1 million plus bailout of Munster, and a €250k additional budget for each province to help them compete on player salaries.   A number of the provinces have sought quietly to persuade the IRFU to consider opening up the provinces’ branch company structures to allow private investors to take a stake in each of the provinces in return for continued investment over a period of time.  Until the last year, those overtures have been largely rebuffed with the occasional odd positive murmur about the need to keep control if such a development were to be envisaged.   It is rumoured that alongside the SRU’s current moves, the IRFU is also investigating how the branches’ structures could be altered to allow such investment in the future.  A variant of the NZRU model whereby they allowed private investors to take a stake in each of the five Super Rugby franchises is being considered, but the IRFU would want to maintain a controlling stake that gives them oversight and control in line with the current player management policy and protocols they have in place.  

As the IRFU have stated time and again, the revenues from the test game is what keeps the whole of Irish rugby afloat - interfering with or disabling that in some way is not something they would countenance.  Equally, the union recognises that costs will continue to rise in the PRO12 and wider club game with player salaries being biggest driver.   Their investment policy has switched from paying out large salaries to high-profile capped foreign players to investing in the domestic pathway development (€10m over the last 3 years) - with the emergence of some fine academy players across the provinces proving testament to this approach led by David Nucifora on behalf of the IRFU.

Nonetheless, the club game is getting bigger and more financially competitive so if a methodology can be developed to allow private investment takes its place at the table, it’s likely to happen over the next few years.  

But as two unions move across the dance floor looking for wealthy partners, the Welsh benefactors are being drawn (protestingly for some) from the other side by the WRU who have recently announced that they see the future of the Welsh game involving a marriage of both union and private investment funds.  As two unions prepare to step out, the Welsh union is preparing to step in again.   The Dragons region has been languishing in the shop window for the past year, gathering dust as various investor-type people amble up, take a poke and move off again without buying.   Martin Phillps was pushed recently in an interview to say that the WRU couldn't allow the region to fold, but he wasn't too specific in public as to what kind of support they might bring.  Equally, he was encouraged enough to say that increased union funding for the four regions seemed to be inevitable - but he didn't say what price they might extract for such investment.  Would the benefactors/shareholders be asked to move on, or move around the table to make more room for union faces to sit down?  

Whilst there are those who pine for a future whereby pure private investment and ownership rules the roost like their counterparts in England and France, the likelihood of that model being created and surviving does not seem to be on anyone's dance cards.   More likely, a marriage of convenience may be arrived at, wherein true love may never be expressed, but at least the two parties will be able to pay the mortgage together, and maybe afford a new extension or two in the near future to mix a few metaphors.

But for now, let the European hopscotch begin, and then the merry four-nation dance can begin again.

All together now:

Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Sixteen long years doin' nothing at all
Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Learning to dance at the PRO12 ball.

They stepped out, and they stepped in again......
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:28 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:It makes me wonder why Ulster only want to play their home games on a Friday evening if they believe the kick off to be such an unsuitable time.

It isn't good for all, but works well enough for supporters and broadcaster. Ulster supporters don't come close to representing the majority of Ulster folk.

Yes but shouldn't the price go up for a product that demands a "prime time" slot ?

Why? All BBC NI have to Pro 12 is find someone else to pay it then they are screwed because there is no one else

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Munchkin on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:It makes me wonder why Ulster only want to play their home games on a Friday evening if they believe the kick off to be such an unsuitable time.

It isn't good for all, but works well enough for supporters and broadcaster. Ulster supporters don't come close to representing the majority of Ulster folk.

Yes but shouldn't the price go up for a product that demands a "prime time" slot ?

Not really. I mean, it's usually companies that pay broadcasters the extra for prime time, not the other way around. I'm still not convinced it's prime time. Prime time would surely be during the week at peak times.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:32 pm

marty2086 wrote:Why? All BBC NI have to Pro 12 is find someone else to pay it then they are screwed because there is no one else

There is a reason why the slots are called prime time though, and that is why they bring more money. There is nothing to stop Ulster playing their games at 7pm on a Friday, but if they are going to be aired live at the same time, then obviously the demand is there. There is nothing stopping BBC NI showing the game at 1am Saturday morning, but there is a reason why that does not happen.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:34 pm

Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:What other journalists as asking BBC Wales about their TV rugby spend? 

Or what other journalists (are there any) asking the hard questions of Anayi and the Blazer crew?

He's a click bate clown. Maybe if he actually came up with credible sources for his fantasies I would listen. He doesn't and I wont.

Either you're particularly dumb or you've confused him with Andy Howell, who is the click bait clown.

Thomas is the proper journalist (the only one) at Wales Online.

He's a clown. Belongs with David Icke and his ilk.

The PRO12 is controlled by the lizard people, the head of which runs the IRFU Shocked

You're not reading his work, if you think that it his output.

Oh, I've read him alright. Always good for a chuckle, especially this £5m claim Laugh

Show me your counter evidence.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:34 pm

Munchkin wrote:Prime time would surely be during the week at peak times.

Yes. Between 7 and 10pm. The time that a huge chunk is dedicated to Ulster rugby on a Friday night.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:36 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:It makes me wonder why Ulster only want to play their home games on a Friday evening if they believe the kick off to be such an unsuitable time.

It isn't good for all, but works well enough for supporters and broadcaster. Ulster supporters don't come close to representing the majority of Ulster folk.

Yes but shouldn't the price go up for a product that demands a "prime time" slot ?

Why? All BBC NI have to Pro 12 is find someone else to pay it then they are screwed because there is no one else

You're ignoring the cost to BBC NI of not having the game.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Munchkin on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:What other journalists as asking BBC Wales about their TV rugby spend? 

Or what other journalists (are there any) asking the hard questions of Anayi and the Blazer crew?

He's a click bate clown. Maybe if he actually came up with credible sources for his fantasies I would listen. He doesn't and I wont.

Either you're particularly dumb or you've confused him with Andy Howell, who is the click bait clown.

Thomas is the proper journalist (the only one) at Wales Online.

He's a clown. Belongs with David Icke and his ilk.

The PRO12 is controlled by the lizard people, the head of which runs the IRFU Shocked

You're not reading his work, if you think that it his output.

Oh, I've read him alright. Always good for a chuckle, especially this £5m claim Laugh

Show me your counter evidence.

You just provided me with all the evidence I need. You should be asking that click-bate clown to back-up his fantastical claims, not me. Before I would make such a shocking claim, I would be sure to back it up ...... unless I was a click-bate journo preaching to the gullible.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Munchkin on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Prime time would surely be during the week at peak times.

Yes. Between 7 and 10pm. The time that a huge chunk is dedicated to Ulster rugby on a Friday night.

Between 7-10 on a weekday, not a Friday. I wouldn't think so anyway. I'm not certain and would really need to see the stats.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:45 pm

Are these really not blind bids?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Why? All BBC NI have to Pro 12 is find someone else to pay it then they are screwed because there is no one else

There is a reason why the slots are called prime time though, and that is why they bring more money. There is nothing to stop Ulster playing their games at 7pm on a Friday, but if they are going to be aired live at the same time, then obviously the demand is there. There is nothing stopping BBC NI showing the game at 1am Saturday morning, but there is a reason why that does not happen.

Yes that's the best time to get the best audience but Pro 12 are in a position of weakness when it comes to negotiating the deal. Pro12 can't play two broadcasters against each other as not only do UTV not show sport but they aren't going to show Ulster over Corrie/Emmerdale/X Factor etc

Its also primetime on BBC Two going up against the aforementioned shows plus the likes of the One Show/Eastenders etc on BBC One so is not an A1 Prime time slot its going into

BBC NI can show other local programmes or just broadcast what the other regions show in that slot which is probably worth substantially less

S4C and BBC Alba have full schedules to fill with programmes that fit their remit

The question we should all be asking is why BBC Sport as a whole don't do more with the Pro 12 as the likes of the Challenge Cup, FA Cup are English competitions shown across the UK wide channels yet a competition that takes in three quarters of the UK doesn't get wider distribution

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Munchkin on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:45 pm

Time for me to go for a while. Thanks for the fun, Phil Smile

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:46 pm

Right, so somebody doesn't have any counter evidence.

Thought not. 

This is just too easy.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:47 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Prime time would surely be during the week at peak times.

Yes. Between 7 and 10pm. The time that a huge chunk is dedicated to Ulster rugby on a Friday night.

Between 7-10 on a weekday, not a Friday. I wouldn't think so anyway. I'm not certain and would really need to see the stats.

So every night at that time is prime time/peak time except for a Friday ? Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:48 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:It makes me wonder why Ulster only want to play their home games on a Friday evening if they believe the kick off to be such an unsuitable time.

It isn't good for all, but works well enough for supporters and broadcaster. Ulster supporters don't come close to representing the majority of Ulster folk.

Yes but shouldn't the price go up for a product that demands a "prime time" slot ?

Why? All BBC NI have to Pro 12 is find someone else to pay it then they are screwed because there is no one else

You're ignoring the cost to BBC NI of not having the game.

Which is what?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 4:50 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Why? All BBC NI have to Pro 12 is find someone else to pay it then they are screwed because there is no one else

There is a reason why the slots are called prime time though, and that is why they bring more money. There is nothing to stop Ulster playing their games at 7pm on a Friday, but if they are going to be aired live at the same time, then obviously the demand is there. There is nothing stopping BBC NI showing the game at 1am Saturday morning, but there is a reason why that does not happen.

Yes that's the best time to get the best audience but Pro 12 are in a position of weakness when it comes to negotiating the deal. Pro12 can't play two broadcasters against each other as not only do UTV not show sport but they aren't going to show Ulster over Corrie/Emmerdale/X Factor etc

Its also primetime on BBC Two going up against the aforementioned shows plus the likes of the One Show/Eastenders etc on BBC One so is not an A1 Prime time slot its going into

BBC NI can show other local programmes or just broadcast what the other regions show in that slot which is probably worth substantially less

S4C and BBC Alba have full schedules to fill with programmes that fit their remit

The question we should all be asking is why BBC Sport as a whole don't do more with the Pro 12 as the likes of the Challenge Cup, FA Cup are English competitions shown across the UK wide channels yet a competition that takes in three quarters of the UK doesn't get wider distribution

Yes the BBC could do a lot more, as a package, but surely putting something on tele at peak times comes at a premium cost. Ulster rugby obviously must have a product of demand, for BBC NI to air it at a peak time, thus Ulster rugby already have a strong bargaining chip, unless BBC NI think they can get more people by putting country file on instead. Shocked

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 5:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Why? All BBC NI have to Pro 12 is find someone else to pay it then they are screwed because there is no one else

There is a reason why the slots are called prime time though, and that is why they bring more money. There is nothing to stop Ulster playing their games at 7pm on a Friday, but if they are going to be aired live at the same time, then obviously the demand is there. There is nothing stopping BBC NI showing the game at 1am Saturday morning, but there is a reason why that does not happen.

Yes that's the best time to get the best audience but Pro 12 are in a position of weakness when it comes to negotiating the deal. Pro12 can't play two broadcasters against each other as not only do UTV not show sport but they aren't going to show Ulster over Corrie/Emmerdale/X Factor etc

Its also primetime on BBC Two going up against the aforementioned shows plus the likes of the One Show/Eastenders etc on BBC One so is not an A1 Prime time slot its going into

BBC NI can show other local programmes or just broadcast what the other regions show in that slot which is probably worth substantially less

S4C and BBC Alba have full schedules to fill with programmes that fit their remit

The question we should all be asking is why BBC Sport as a whole don't do more with the Pro 12 as the likes of the Challenge Cup, FA Cup are English competitions shown across the UK wide channels yet a competition that takes in three quarters of the UK doesn't get wider distribution

Yes the BBC could do a lot more, as a package, but surely putting something on tele at peak times comes at a premium cost. Ulster rugby obviously must have a product of demand, for BBC NI to air it at a peak time, thus Ulster rugby already have a strong bargaining chip, unless BBC NI think they can get more people by putting country file on instead. Shocked

Its not just about the number of viewers, its about how much they spend to get those viewers

Showing something like Countryfile or Eggheads or whatever shows they do show in its place means they are showing a programme that is staffed and produced elsewhere meaning it costs them a lot less to BBC NI

Pro 12 wont get a broadcaster for Ulster without BBC NI, BBC NI will still get viewers without Ulster Rugby

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 5:08 pm

marty2086 wrote:Pro 12 wont get a broadcaster for Ulster without BBC NI, BBC NI will still get viewers without Ulster Rugby

Yes I know, but I cannot tell if you are being deliberate in missing the point or not.

BBC NI will get viewers for showing other programs, but BBC NI go out of their way to show Ulster rugby at peak time on a Friday, Ulster rugby is not a gap filler, there must be demand, otherwise they will just put Countryfile or Eggheads on instead. So there must already be a bargaining chip there for Ulster rugby/Pro12 to say, show us the money or you can fill your peak times with chaff and lose out on viewers.

There must be a premium to be paid for airing a product at peak times.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Munchkin on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 5:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:Right, so somebody doesn't have any counter evidence.

Thought not. 

This is just too easy.

Easy? Smile  The easy bit was ridiculing your fantastical £5m claim, along your doofus source. That's all the "counter evidence" anyone needs. I know you chat to the clown, so away and ask him to support his £5m spoof. You won't because deep inside you know he's lying, and wouldn't be unable to provide any credible evidence as none exists.

Oh, and Chunky/Dai made the same £4m claim on PR. Where does that figure come from?


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 9:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Pro 12 wont get a broadcaster for Ulster without BBC NI, BBC NI will still get viewers without Ulster Rugby

Yes I know, but I cannot tell if you are being deliberate in missing the point or not.

BBC NI will get viewers for showing other programs, but BBC NI go out of their way to show Ulster rugby at peak time on a Friday, Ulster rugby is not a gap filler, there must be demand, otherwise they will just put Countryfile or Eggheads on instead. So there must already be a bargaining chip there for Ulster rugby/Pro12 to say, show us the money or you can fill your peak times with chaff and lose out on viewers.

There must be a premium to be paid for airing a product at peak times.

How exactly do they go out of their way?

You just have to look at what is paid for the Premier League rights, most matches aren't at peak times yet draw a premium rate

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by profitius on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 10:00 pm

PhilBB wrote:By my reckoning, the Scots are underpaying by about £4m a year and BBC NI needs to spend about £1.8m a year to be in line.


Theres other ways of measuring a country or team's value besides looking at how much their broadcasters are putting into the pot. For example everyone acknowledges that the Italians are not doing much good for the league at the moment and problem dragging the standard down. Yet I don't see the opposite being acknowledged that Glasgows rise is great for the league. They might not be bringing in funds directly but theres an indirect benefit.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 8:23 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Pro 12 wont get a broadcaster for Ulster without BBC NI, BBC NI will still get viewers without Ulster Rugby

Yes I know, but I cannot tell if you are being deliberate in missing the point or not.

BBC NI will get viewers for showing other programs, but BBC NI go out of their way to show Ulster rugby at peak time on a Friday, Ulster rugby is not a gap filler, there must be demand, otherwise they will just put Countryfile or Eggheads on instead. So there must already be a bargaining chip there for Ulster rugby/Pro12 to say, show us the money or you can fill your peak times with chaff and lose out on viewers.

There must be a premium to be paid for airing a product at peak times.

How exactly do they go out of their way?

You just have to look at what is paid for the Premier League rights, most matches aren't at peak times yet draw a premium rate

If Ulster had a football team in the premiership, and they wanted to show it on a Friday night, the rugby would be dropped like a lead balloon. BBC NI put Ulster rugby on at a peak time, this should cost more surely. It is put on at a peak time to attract the most viewers. That is the long and short of it.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 9:33 am

But without competition why would the BBC pay more. They are a public broadcaster so have to justify the cost even for things which draw a large audience. They would surely just walk away as they did with bake off.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 9:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Pro 12 wont get a broadcaster for Ulster without BBC NI, BBC NI will still get viewers without Ulster Rugby

Yes I know, but I cannot tell if you are being deliberate in missing the point or not.

BBC NI will get viewers for showing other programs, but BBC NI go out of their way to show Ulster rugby at peak time on a Friday, Ulster rugby is not a gap filler, there must be demand, otherwise they will just put Countryfile or Eggheads on instead. So there must already be a bargaining chip there for Ulster rugby/Pro12 to say, show us the money or you can fill your peak times with chaff and lose out on viewers.

There must be a premium to be paid for airing a product at peak times.

How exactly do they go out of their way?

You just have to look at what is paid for the Premier League rights, most matches aren't at peak times yet draw a premium rate

If Ulster had a football team in the premiership, and they wanted to show it on a Friday night, the rugby would be dropped like a lead balloon. BBC NI put Ulster rugby on at a peak time, this should cost more surely. It is put on at a peak time to attract the most viewers. That is the long and short of it.

How many made up things do you want to use to try and back up your argument?

Ulster don't have a PL football team
BBC don't have live rights to the PL

The tv deals are not based on time slots

Not every Ulster match is at the same time

And you clearly have no clue what you are talking about so please stop and go do some reading

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 10:13 am

I found this concerning the 4 year Pro12 tv deal signed in 2014. It's not unimagibale to think that S4C's money added to the BBC Wales figure of 3.2m makes up £5m in Wales.

The French deal compares to the £152m over four years secured by Premiership Rugby with BT Sport for English rugby's top flight – a chunk of which is for a cross-border tournament – and the near-£10m a year the RaboDirect Pro 12 unions have secured for the rights to their league, £5.5m from Sky, who have first pick every round, £3.2m from BBC Wales, £900,000 from Ireland, which seems pitiful given the strength of three of their provinces, and some £140,000 from Scotland.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/16/the-breakdown-french-rugby-top14-tv

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 10:39 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:I found this concerning the 4 year Pro12 tv deal signed in 2014. It's not unimagibale to think that S4C's money added to the BBC Wales figure of 3.2m makes up £5m in Wales.

The French deal compares to the £152m over four years secured by Premiership Rugby with BT Sport for English rugby's top flight – a chunk of which is for a cross-border tournament – and the near-£10m a year the RaboDirect Pro 12 unions have secured for the rights to their league, £5.5m from Sky, who have first pick every round, £3.2m from BBC Wales, £900,000 from Ireland, which seems pitiful given the strength of three of their provinces, and some £140,000 from Scotland.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/16/the-breakdown-french-rugby-top14-tv

Sports journalists wouldn't comment on politics or science yet feel equipped to comment on business? Then again it is Paul Rees Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 10:56 am

Ulster play on Friday nights because it maximises there crowd size - pure and simple.

This is because the club game is a Saturday tradition and many of those going are involved in it.

Everytime we play on Saturday there is a slight dip in attendance.


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:13 am

profitius wrote:
PhilBB wrote:By my reckoning, the Scots are underpaying by about £4m a year and BBC NI needs to spend about £1.8m a year to be in line.


Theres other ways of measuring a country or team's value besides looking at how much their broadcasters are putting into the pot. For example everyone acknowledges that the Italians are not doing much good for the league at the moment and problem dragging the standard down. Yet I don't see the opposite being acknowledged that Glasgows rise is great for the league. They might not be bringing in funds directly but theres an indirect benefit.

What is the indirect benefit?
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:14 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I found this concerning the 4 year Pro12 tv deal signed in 2014. It's not unimagibale to think that S4C's money added to the BBC Wales figure of 3.2m makes up £5m in Wales.

The French deal compares to the £152m over four years secured by Premiership Rugby with BT Sport for English rugby's top flight – a chunk of which is for a cross-border tournament – and the near-£10m a year the RaboDirect Pro 12 unions have secured for the rights to their league, £5.5m from Sky, who have first pick every round, £3.2m from BBC Wales, £900,000 from Ireland, which seems pitiful given the strength of three of their provinces, and some £140,000 from Scotland.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/16/the-breakdown-french-rugby-top14-tv

Sports journalists wouldn't comment on politics or science yet feel equipped to comment on business? Then again it is Paul Rees Rolling Eyes

Nobody in their right mind would think €900,000 for a TV deal is anything other than pitiful
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:16 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster play on Friday nights because it maximises there crowd size - pure and simple.

This is because the club game is a Saturday tradition and many of those going are involved in it.

Everytime we play on Saturday there is a slight dip in attendance.

Since 2003, here are the averages:

Saturday kick offs - 10,782
Friday kick offs - 10,311

http://cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/attendances_by_day.php?day=6&seasonID=999&clubID=31&competitionsID=1
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:17 am

marty2086 wrote:


Not every Ulster match is at the same time

Other than Sky games, aren't all Ulster PrO'12 games on a Friday evening?
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:18 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:But without competition why would the BBC pay more. 

Because the cost of showing something else needs to be taken into the equation.

Rugby is relatively very, very cheap to broadcast and ticks the 'local interest' box for BBC Regional Broadcasters.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:19 am

marty2086 wrote:
Which is what?
You really have to ask that question? Seriously?

It's the cost of ticking the 'local interest' box for 2 plus hours of TV.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:20 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I found this concerning the 4 year Pro12 tv deal signed in 2014. It's not unimagibale to think that S4C's money added to the BBC Wales figure of 3.2m makes up £5m in Wales.

The French deal compares to the £152m over four years secured by Premiership Rugby with BT Sport for English rugby's top flight – a chunk of which is for a cross-border tournament – and the near-£10m a year the RaboDirect Pro 12 unions have secured for the rights to their league, £5.5m from Sky, who have first pick every round, £3.2m from BBC Wales, £900,000 from Ireland, which seems pitiful given the strength of three of their provinces, and some £140,000 from Scotland.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/16/the-breakdown-french-rugby-top14-tv

Sports journalists wouldn't comment on politics or science yet feel equipped to comment on business? Then again it is Paul Rees Rolling Eyes

Nobody in their right mind would think €900,000 for a TV deal is anything other than pitiful

Really?

When you have nobody interested in the rights because their budgets have seen huge cuts and the product doesn't offer value for money then its not as pitiful as some like to make out

Since the deal was made TV3 have been aggressive in buying up the sports rights in Ireland, Eir Sport have come into the picture plus with Sky likely wanting to do more with the Pro 12 the Irish rights should hopefully grow exponentially

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:20 am

But they know there's little competition there and can easily just show the programme that the main bbc show.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:23 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Which is what?
You really have to ask that question? Seriously?

It's the cost of ticking the 'local interest' box for 2 plus hours of TV.

You think BBC NI struggle with that?

A live broadcast is a costly exercise, you think BBC NI would struggle to fill the schedule?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:25 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:


Not every Ulster match is at the same time

Other than Sky games, aren't all Ulster PrO'12 games on a Friday evening?

No

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:27 am

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster play on Friday nights because it maximises there crowd size - pure and simple.

This is because the club game is a Saturday tradition and many of those going are involved in it.

Everytime we play on Saturday there is a slight dip in attendance.

Since 2003, here are the averages:

Saturday kick offs - 10,782
Friday kick offs - 10,311

http://cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/attendances_by_day.php?day=6&seasonID=999&clubID=31&competitionsID=1

And not one game against an Italian team on a Saturday which usually have a far lower attendance

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:29 am

marty2086 wrote:
Really?

When you have nobody interested in the rights because their budgets have seen huge cuts and the product doesn't offer value for money then its not as pitiful as some like to make out

Since the deal was made TV3 have been aggressive in buying up the sports rights in Ireland, Eir Sport have come into the picture plus with Sky likely wanting to do more with the Pro 12 the Irish rights should hopefully grow exponentially

"the product doesn't offer value for money". 

Isn't that true.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:31 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Really?

When you have nobody interested in the rights because their budgets have seen huge cuts and the product doesn't offer value for money then its not as pitiful as some like to make out

Since the deal was made TV3 have been aggressive in buying up the sports rights in Ireland, Eir Sport have come into the picture plus with Sky likely wanting to do more with the Pro 12 the Irish rights should hopefully grow exponentially

"the product doesn't offer value for money". 

Isn't that true.

If you don't like it don't watch it and stop bitching about it

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:31 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:


Not every Ulster match is at the same time

Other than Sky games, aren't all Ulster PrO'12 games on a Friday evening?

No
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/fixtures/index.php#.WJMYVHecaRs

Sure?
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:31 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I found this concerning the 4 year Pro12 tv deal signed in 2014. It's not unimagibale to think that S4C's money added to the BBC Wales figure of 3.2m makes up £5m in Wales.

The French deal compares to the £152m over four years secured by Premiership Rugby with BT Sport for English rugby's top flight – a chunk of which is for a cross-border tournament – and the near-£10m a year the RaboDirect Pro 12 unions have secured for the rights to their league, £5.5m from Sky, who have first pick every round, £3.2m from BBC Wales, £900,000 from Ireland, which seems pitiful given the strength of three of their provinces, and some £140,000 from Scotland.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/16/the-breakdown-french-rugby-top14-tv

Sports journalists wouldn't comment on politics or science yet feel equipped to comment on business? Then again it is Paul Rees Rolling Eyes

Are there any figures being reported that you will actually believe? Seems to me that because they don't suit your argument you are just dismissing them.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:32 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Really?

When you have nobody interested in the rights because their budgets have seen huge cuts and the product doesn't offer value for money then its not as pitiful as some like to make out

Since the deal was made TV3 have been aggressive in buying up the sports rights in Ireland, Eir Sport have come into the picture plus with Sky likely wanting to do more with the Pro 12 the Irish rights should hopefully grow exponentially

"the product doesn't offer value for money". 

Isn't that true.

If you don't like it don't watch it and stop bitching about it

Yes, that's the way to increase the TV deal. What a wise move. 

Still, thanks for admitting that it's Poopie.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:32 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I found this concerning the 4 year Pro12 tv deal signed in 2014. It's not unimagibale to think that S4C's money added to the BBC Wales figure of 3.2m makes up £5m in Wales.

The French deal compares to the £152m over four years secured by Premiership Rugby with BT Sport for English rugby's top flight – a chunk of which is for a cross-border tournament – and the near-£10m a year the RaboDirect Pro 12 unions have secured for the rights to their league, £5.5m from Sky, who have first pick every round, £3.2m from BBC Wales, £900,000 from Ireland, which seems pitiful given the strength of three of their provinces, and some £140,000 from Scotland.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/16/the-breakdown-french-rugby-top14-tv

Sports journalists wouldn't comment on politics or science yet feel equipped to comment on business? Then again it is Paul Rees Rolling Eyes

Are there any figures being reported that you will actually believe? Seems to me that because they don't suit your argument you are just dismissing them.

It didn't take you long to work that out, did it? Irish rugby followers do get prissy when the stats disprove their prejudices.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:33 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Which is what?
You really have to ask that question? Seriously?

It's the cost of ticking the 'local interest' box for 2 plus hours of TV.

You think BBC NI struggle with that?

A live broadcast is a costly exercise, you think BBC NI would struggle to fill the schedule?

Martyn, broadcasting live sport is relatively cheap. Let's move on safe in that knowledge.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:34 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:


Not every Ulster match is at the same time

Other than Sky games, aren't all Ulster PrO'12 games on a Friday evening?

No
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/fixtures/index.php#.WJMYVHecaRs

Sure?

Quite a few Saturday league fixtures in there and a Sunday too thumbsup

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:35 am

Selling the rights as one normally help the price.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:36 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster play on Friday nights because it maximises there crowd size - pure and simple.

This is because the club game is a Saturday tradition and many of those going are involved in it.

Everytime we play on Saturday there is a slight dip in attendance.

Since 2003, here are the averages:

Saturday kick offs - 10,782
Friday kick offs - 10,311

http://cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/attendances_by_day.php?day=6&seasonID=999&clubID=31&competitionsID=1

And not one game against an Italian team on a Saturday which usually have a far lower attendance

Added to which 50% of those games on Saturday were against Irish provinces whilst only 20% of them were against Irish provinces on Friday.
If it was just against Leinster and Munster the differences would be even more marked.

The simple fact is like for like games draw a bigger crowd on Friday




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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:36 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:


Not every Ulster match is at the same time

Other than Sky games, aren't all Ulster PrO'12 games on a Friday evening?

No
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/fixtures/index.php#.WJMYVHecaRs

Sure?

Quite a few Saturday league fixtures in there and a Sunday too thumbsup

Those are the ones televised by a broadcaster other than BBC NI, right?
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:36 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:


Not every Ulster match is at the same time

Other than Sky games, aren't all Ulster PrO'12 games on a Friday evening?

No
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/fixtures/index.php#.WJMYVHecaRs

Sure?

Quite a few Saturday league fixtures in there and a Sunday too thumbsup

Those are the ones televised by a broadcaster other than BBC NI, right?

Nope

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:38 am

Phil lets just end it here because you have a serious issue with the Pro12, Ulster and god knows what else

Go get your panties untwisted and it may life more enjoyable for you

Or you know, therapy

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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