The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I stepped out and she stepped in again
I stepped out and she stepped in again
learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball


In thinking about recent goings-on at union level within the PRO12, I was reminded of the lyrics of this old song as unions, corporate interests, private investors, Welsh benefactors, and sundry money-makers make their various moves on the PRO12 dance floor.  Scotland and Ireland seem to be bashfully eyeing up the investor lads on one side of the hall, fluttering their eyelashes, whilst on the other side, the Welsh bennys (as they're affectionately known Wink ) are making tapes and throwing shapes, whilst secretly hoping eagerly that they might get a chance to sign the WRU's card for a dance or two.  Meanwhile, the Italians dither in the middle wondering where they should be but won't tell anyone that they don't know even the music.  

But for now the band has taken a break whilst the visiting Europeans and Anglo heavies make their way onto the floor to start their version of French/Anglo hopscotch involving a number of bulky partners, foreign tap dancers, celtic coaches, and comic millionaires.

It's a good a time as any for a quick cuppa and a chance to talk about where the PRO12 is going with all the plans for expansion to US and Europe suddenly gone quiet, some league quality improvements, big weekend derbies, more neutral officials, and what else is on the horizon for upcoming changes within the PRO12.

The looming spectre of dwindling money and funding ever more expensive teams for the future seems to be the next big issue and where that is all going to come from.   Hopes of improved TV deals, better sponsors and business supporters of the league remain a distant aspiration - although the recent appointment of a commercial director to work alongside Martin Anayi on securing the best deals possible seems to be a step in the right direction.  Some are holding their whisth on that one.

Ownership and financing of the teams themselves is the most urgent and vexing issue facing the four unions operating in the PRO12.  Over the last number of months, the SRU have been making a lot of noise and some news headlines with their plans to bring in private investment to its two Scottish clubs to help meet some of the ongoing costs involved.   The SRU says it can't continue to finance the two teams at current levels of revenue and costs, and they need to bring in private investors/business to meet a substantial portion of the costs in return for a stake in one or both of the two clubs.  How much that stake would be is not clear as the SRU would want to keep their hand in the two clubs responsible for generating its line of test players, but whether that would be a 51% stake or less remains to be seen.   A voting process in late 2016 saw members give the green light to the Scottish Union to pursue this path of identifying and securing potential investment but only time will tell if it will draw in any worthwhile investors.

Italian rugby seems to lurch from one crisis to the next with the FIR having to bail out both Treviso and Zebre in recent times with substantial commitments of money.  After the last crisis, which saw a number of players leave the two clubs, it is Treviso who have fared better with the backing of Bennetton, and it is Zebre who are staring down the barrel of closure at season end once again.  A new franchise, based in Rome, is being rumoured to be on the cards with the FIR willing to put financial support into its development.   For many within the PRO12, and without, the Italian project seems to be a wasted exercise and just amounts to weekly humiliation as opposition teams pile up the points, regularly taking home try bonus points in their victories. For others, the Italian involvement is a long game and one that has to be persevered with.    Yet, the FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby, the company which manages the PRO12 - the latest filings with the Companies Registration Office in Dublin shows that the three Celtic unions remain the founding shareholders, and critically, the beneficiaries of any financial dealing that flow through it - particularly in relation to TV broadcasting deals such as Sky Sports.  This current season, it took until Round 6 before an Italian broadcaster could be secured for covering the home matches of Treviso and Zebre, and with crowds often hovering around 1,500-2,000, this didn't raise many eyebrows.  for the foreseeable future, Italian rugby will stay within the PRO12, and the FIR will continue to be a major stakeholder/financier in the teams.

Irish rugby has been dabbling with business support for a number of years now with the provincial teams drawing in sponsorships, player salary top-ups, and increasing financial support for the various provinces through different types of schemes devised by the individual branches.   Jamie Heaslip recently re-signed with Leinster on what's likely to be his final playing contract before retirement (at age 37).  One of Ireland’s most consistent and durable players, he’s also been one of the most consistently highest paid through his IRFU central contract, and a salary top-up through his Leinster club with a business sponsorship deal with Bank of Ireland.  

But these adhoc business supports and extended sponsorships/player promotions and brand ambassadors do not fill the coffers of the branches sufficiently to grow and expand, it's sufficient only to pay the salaries of 2-3 players to keep them in place against ever higher competing offers from the TV-deal-enriched clubs in England and France.  As the IRFU pointed at the launch of its annual report last June, the IRFU cannot continue to be "the bank of last resort" for the provinces - following a €1 million plus bailout of Munster, and a €250k additional budget for each province to help them compete on player salaries.   A number of the provinces have sought quietly to persuade the IRFU to consider opening up the provinces’ branch company structures to allow private investors to take a stake in each of the provinces in return for continued investment over a period of time.  Until the last year, those overtures have been largely rebuffed with the occasional odd positive murmur about the need to keep control if such a development were to be envisaged.   It is rumoured that alongside the SRU’s current moves, the IRFU is also investigating how the branches’ structures could be altered to allow such investment in the future.  A variant of the NZRU model whereby they allowed private investors to take a stake in each of the five Super Rugby franchises is being considered, but the IRFU would want to maintain a controlling stake that gives them oversight and control in line with the current player management policy and protocols they have in place.  

As the IRFU have stated time and again, the revenues from the test game is what keeps the whole of Irish rugby afloat - interfering with or disabling that in some way is not something they would countenance.  Equally, the union recognises that costs will continue to rise in the PRO12 and wider club game with player salaries being biggest driver.   Their investment policy has switched from paying out large salaries to high-profile capped foreign players to investing in the domestic pathway development (€10m over the last 3 years) - with the emergence of some fine academy players across the provinces proving testament to this approach led by David Nucifora on behalf of the IRFU.

Nonetheless, the club game is getting bigger and more financially competitive so if a methodology can be developed to allow private investment takes its place at the table, it’s likely to happen over the next few years.  

But as two unions move across the dance floor looking for wealthy partners, the Welsh benefactors are being drawn (protestingly for some) from the other side by the WRU who have recently announced that they see the future of the Welsh game involving a marriage of both union and private investment funds.  As two unions prepare to step out, the Welsh union is preparing to step in again.   The Dragons region has been languishing in the shop window for the past year, gathering dust as various investor-type people amble up, take a poke and move off again without buying.   Martin Phillps was pushed recently in an interview to say that the WRU couldn't allow the region to fold, but he wasn't too specific in public as to what kind of support they might bring.  Equally, he was encouraged enough to say that increased union funding for the four regions seemed to be inevitable - but he didn't say what price they might extract for such investment.  Would the benefactors/shareholders be asked to move on, or move around the table to make more room for union faces to sit down?  

Whilst there are those who pine for a future whereby pure private investment and ownership rules the roost like their counterparts in England and France, the likelihood of that model being created and surviving does not seem to be on anyone's dance cards.   More likely, a marriage of convenience may be arrived at, wherein true love may never be expressed, but at least the two parties will be able to pay the mortgage together, and maybe afford a new extension or two in the near future to mix a few metaphors.

But for now, let the European hopscotch begin, and then the merry four-nation dance can begin again.

All together now:

Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Sixteen long years doin' nothing at all
Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Learning to dance at the PRO12 ball.

They stepped out, and they stepped in again......
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:38 am

Ulster have played four times as many games on a Friday as on a Saturday.

I think that it is quite safe to say that they prefer to play on a Friday. And that regular kick off times help grow a support base.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:39 am

marty2086 wrote:Phil lets just end it here because you have a serious issue with the Pro12, Ulster and god knows what else

Go get your panties untwisted and it may life more enjoyable for you

Or you know, therapy

"let's end it here" 

Code for when yet another of Martyn's fabricated, made up on the spot, arguments is undone by his own posts.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:39 am

The PrO'12: the product that doesn't offer value for money.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:41 am

So you'd be expecting a lower tv offer this time around.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you'd be expecting a lower tv offer this time around.

Lower than €900,000? Pass.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:43 am

TV right for the pro 12 are clearly above 900k. You said it wasn't offering value for money so surely you would be expecting a lower total figure from tv? Not splicing it up would surely help?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:44 am

Ok what is the figure for BBC NI - anyone know exactly ?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:47 am

PhilBB wrote:Ulster have played four times as many games on a Friday as on a Saturday.

I think that it is quite safe to say that they prefer to play on a Friday. And that regular kick off times help grow a support base.

So you admit Friday draws in more spectators now

All fixtures are negotiated by the teams with the TV providers to a mutual agreed time and date, within certain league directed parameters.
In Ulster it happens to be a mutually agreeable time of Friday evening - don't think there is anything to apologise for.

If Welsh supporters don't like the fixture list blame Welsh clubs and Welsh broadcasters - they are the ones who decide

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:50 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:TV right for the pro 12 are clearly above 900k. You said it wasn't offering value for money so surely you would be expecting a lower total figure from tv? Not splicing it up would surely help?
FFS. I was using Martyn's words.

Keep up.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:51 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Ulster have played four times as many games on a Friday as on a Saturday.

I think that it is quite safe to say that they prefer to play on a Friday. And that regular kick off times help grow a support base.

So you admit Friday draws in more spectators now

All fixtures are negotiated by the teams with the TV providers to a mutual agreed time and date, within certain league directed parameters.
In Ulster it happens to be a mutually agreeable time of Friday evening - don't think there is anything to apologise for.

If Welsh supporters don't like the fixture list blame Welsh clubs and Welsh broadcasters - they are the ones who decide  

Where did I claim that Fridays in Belfast didn't draw in more supporters? I just posted the facts.

You're right: there is nothing to apologise for when negotiating a kick off time that works for the locals. 

And you are also right to blame BBC Wales. 

But, of course, at least BBC Wales can say they adequately pay for the privilege.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:52 am

No need to swear. So you believe it does offer value for money. Why not just say that. Not splicing it would surely still add more money though.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:55 am

As an aside of Ulsters last 5 Pro12 home games

3 are on Saturday
1 is on a Friday
1 has yet to be decided

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:56 am

PhilBB wrote:
But, of course, at least BBC Wales can say they adequately pay for the privilege.

What is adequate - why would a TV company pay more than they need ?
The problem of only one TV company being interested in broadcasting puts them in a strong position

As I said before does anyone actually know the BBC NI figure ?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:04 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Phil lets just end it here because you have a serious issue with the Pro12, Ulster and god knows what else

Go get your panties untwisted and it may life more enjoyable for you

Or you know, therapy

"let's end it here" 

Code for when yet another of Martyn's fabricated, made up on the spot, arguments is undone by his own posts.

Excuse me? What did I fabricate?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:  
But, of course, at least BBC Wales can say they adequately pay for the privilege.

What is adequate - why would a TV company pay more than they need ?
The problem of only one TV company being interested in broadcasting puts them in a strong position

As I said before does anyone actually know the BBC NI figure ?

Why have you assumed the payment is 'more than they need'?
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:  
But, of course, at least BBC Wales can say they adequately pay for the privilege.

What is adequate - why would a TV company pay more than they need ?
The problem of only one TV company being interested in broadcasting puts them in a strong position

As I said before does anyone actually know the BBC NI figure ?

Why have you assumed the payment is 'more than they need'?

Why have you assumed it isn't?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:43 pm

Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Right, so somebody doesn't have any counter evidence.

Thought not. 

This is just too easy.

Easy? Smile  The easy bit was ridiculing your fantastical £5m claim, along your doofus source. That's all the "counter evidence" anyone needs. I know you chat to the clown, so away and ask him to support his £5m spoof. You won't because deep inside you know he's lying, and wouldn't be unable to provide any credible evidence as none exists.

Oh, and Chunky/Dai made the same £4m claim on PR. Where does that figure come from?

Just read this.

What a moron.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:47 pm

Rather than cheap insults what about providing the evidence of what each of the BBC regions have as revenue and what each pays for TV rights.


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:49 pm

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:  
But, of course, at least BBC Wales can say they adequately pay for the privilege.

What is adequate - why would a TV company pay more than they need ?
The problem of only one TV company being interested in broadcasting puts them in a strong position

As I said before does anyone actually know the BBC NI figure ?

Why have you assumed the payment is 'more than they need'?

Why have you assumed it isn't?
Because they wouldn't have paid it.

Quite obviously
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:49 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Rather than cheap insults what about providing the evidence of what each of the BBC regions have as revenue and what each pays for TV rights.

When the evidence is provided, journalists get called liars.

Yet the bloke shouting that can't put anything to disprove them. Think on that.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:50 pm

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Phil lets just end it here because you have a serious issue with the Pro12, Ulster and god knows what else

Go get your panties untwisted and it may life more enjoyable for you

Or you know, therapy

"let's end it here" 

Code for when yet another of Martyn's fabricated, made up on the spot, arguments is undone by his own posts.

Excuse me? What did I fabricate?
The value of the PrO'12 in the Republic of Ireland.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:52 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Phil lets just end it here because you have a serious issue with the Pro12, Ulster and god knows what else

Go get your panties untwisted and it may life more enjoyable for you

Or you know, therapy

"let's end it here" 

Code for when yet another of Martyn's fabricated, made up on the spot, arguments is undone by his own posts.

Excuse me? What did I fabricate?
The value of the PrO'12 in the Republic of Ireland.

How exactly did a fabricate anything about it?

I barely mentioned it

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:53 pm

Sell the rights as one rather than split them.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 12:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sell the rights as one rather than split them.

That's a double edged sword though, you may get more from say Sky but free to air gets more eyes on the product and can help grow the fan base. It can also boost sponsorship revenue.

For me though the broadcasters don't do enough to promote the league as a whole, when the Sky deal was first brought in we all expected the Sky treatment of loads of hype and promotion but theres very little of it and even on News HQ it doesn't get the prominence of other sports or leagues

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:07 pm

Oh I agree completely marty but that's probably the cost you will have to pay to significantly improve money from rights. Relying on a public service tv station to fund a lot of the league isn't going to work. And before he says the only solution is to have a British league it ain't in the English clubs interests to let you guys catch up with funding!

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:15 pm

The next rights deal will be interesting, I wonder if BT will enter the fray, if they do that should hopefully drive up whatever Sky pay.

Given that there is an appetite for most games being broadcast, then moving exclusive to a Sky or BT would hurt the league in the long term.

A more competitive Irish market should hopefully see the 900k figure jump considerably

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:18 pm

I would be surprised should BT go all in given they already show the prem. Think its more likely they put their eggs in the euro market. Should BT show genuine interest.it may force sky's hand but I'd imagine they'd want sole rights.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:20 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

Leaving aside whether the English want it or not for just a minute.............Wouldn't a "ring fenced" sort of aviva premiership mean it would be easier to get a British and Irish League in the future? Because it would mean there would be no legal wranglings over relegation and promotion to England's top tier?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:22 pm

And have the bottom half of the prem sweating on their place in the promised land.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:27 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

Leaving aside whether the English want it or not for just a minute.............Wouldn't a "ring fenced" sort of aviva premiership mean it would be easier to get a British and Irish League in the future? Because it would mean there would be no legal wranglings over relegation and promotion to England's top tier?

How would it?

If anything it makes it more difficult as you then have the second tier teams in England being denied a piece of the pie but the Pro 12 teams getting a share, do you think they'd be happy to sit back and allow it to happen?

It would also dilute the development process the RFU are big on and they have tried to protect with their most recent proposals

The AP teams are doing everything they can to keep as much of the increased revenue as they can, why would they want to share. I can see why the Pro 12 teams would want to but why would the English? It goes against their own interests

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:34 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

Leaving aside whether the English want it or not for just a minute.............Wouldn't a "ring fenced" sort of aviva premiership mean it would be easier to get a British and Irish League in the future? Because it would mean there would be no legal wranglings over relegation and promotion to England's top tier?

How would it?

If anything it makes it more difficult as you then have the second tier teams in England being denied a piece of the pie but the Pro 12 teams getting a share, do you think they'd be happy to sit back and allow it to happen?


But 2nd tier teams in Wales, Scotland and Ireland are denied a piece of the pie currently. So why would it be different in England?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:38 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

Leaving aside whether the English want it or not for just a minute.............Wouldn't a "ring fenced" sort of aviva premiership mean it would be easier to get a British and Irish League in the future? Because it would mean there would be no legal wranglings over relegation and promotion to England's top tier?

How would it?

If anything it makes it more difficult as you then have the second tier teams in England being denied a piece of the pie but the Pro 12 teams getting a share, do you think they'd be happy to sit back and allow it to happen?


But 2nd tier teams in Wales, Scotland and Ireland are denied a piece of the pie currently. So why would it be different in England?

There are no second tiers

The clubs in the leagues in those countries feed into the provinces and regions, they are essentially extensions of the clubs in their areas

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

Leaving aside whether the English want it or not for just a minute.............Wouldn't a "ring fenced" sort of aviva premiership mean it would be easier to get a British and Irish League in the future? Because it would mean there would be no legal wranglings over relegation and promotion to England's top tier?

How would it?

If anything it makes it more difficult as you then have the second tier teams in England being denied a piece of the pie but the Pro 12 teams getting a share, do you think they'd be happy to sit back and allow it to happen?


But 2nd tier teams in Wales, Scotland and Ireland are denied a piece of the pie currently. So why would it be different in England?

There are no second tiers

The clubs in the leagues in those countries feed into the provinces and regions, they are essentially extensions of the clubs in their areas

So there is no relationship between Nottingham RFC and Leicester Tigers?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:16 pm

I don't think Leeds Doncaster etc would be happy with that arrangement so there would be plenty along with the bottom half of the prem. And presumably whoever is cut from the pro 12.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:17 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

Leaving aside whether the English want it or not for just a minute.............Wouldn't a "ring fenced" sort of aviva premiership mean it would be easier to get a British and Irish League in the future? Because it would mean there would be no legal wranglings over relegation and promotion to England's top tier?

How would it?

If anything it makes it more difficult as you then have the second tier teams in England being denied a piece of the pie but the Pro 12 teams getting a share, do you think they'd be happy to sit back and allow it to happen?


But 2nd tier teams in Wales, Scotland and Ireland are denied a piece of the pie currently. So why would it be different in England?

There are no second tiers

The clubs in the leagues in those countries feed into the provinces and regions, they are essentially extensions of the clubs in their areas

So there is no relationship between Nottingham RFC and Leicester Tigers?

Do either of those clubs actually help make up the other as is the case in Wales and Ireland?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Right, so somebody doesn't have any counter evidence.

Thought not. 

This is just too easy.

Easy? Smile  The easy bit was ridiculing your fantastical £5m claim, along your doofus source. That's all the "counter evidence" anyone needs. I know you chat to the clown, so away and ask him to support his £5m spoof. You won't because deep inside you know he's lying, and wouldn't be unable to provide any credible evidence as none exists.

Oh, and Chunky/Dai made the same £4m claim on PR. Where does that figure come from?

Just read this.

What a moron.

I'm a moron because I want facts and not your fictional drivel?  Smile

This really odd obsession you have with Irish rugby can't be healthy, and is probably symptomatic of deeper issue's. Maybe you should take a course in CBT.

You are a joke on here, just as you/Chunky/Dai are a running joke on PR. Even your own Welsh compatriots think you are nutjobs, and an embarrassment to them. You probably think we are all wrong and you are right o0

You are entertaining though, when you're not running away Laugh

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 4:08 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

Leaving aside whether the English want it or not for just a minute.............Wouldn't a "ring fenced" sort of aviva premiership mean it would be easier to get a British and Irish League in the future? Because it would mean there would be no legal wranglings over relegation and promotion to England's top tier?

How would it?

If anything it makes it more difficult as you then have the second tier teams in England being denied a piece of the pie but the Pro 12 teams getting a share, do you think they'd be happy to sit back and allow it to happen?


But 2nd tier teams in Wales, Scotland and Ireland are denied a piece of the pie currently. So why would it be different in England?

There are no second tiers

The clubs in the leagues in those countries feed into the provinces and regions, they are essentially extensions of the clubs in their areas

So there is no relationship between Nottingham RFC and Leicester Tigers?

Do either of those clubs actually help make up the other as is the case in Wales and Ireland?

I believe Tigers often have players playing for Nottingham to get over injury and lots of Tigers players have come through the Nottingham structure, even though they sued to be old foes.

The point is - once PRL is ring-fenced I'm not sure it would be a stumbling block to a B&I League. It would be more of a plus.

There are far bigger stumbling blocks.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:25 am

marty2086 wrote:

Phil seems obsessed with a British League even though the AP keep making moves towards closing itself off

Off the agenda, for now.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:28 am

marty2086 wrote:

If anything it makes it more difficult as you then have the second tier teams in England being denied a piece of the pie but the Pro 12 teams getting a share, do you think they'd be happy to sit back and allow it to happen?

It would also dilute the development process the RFU are big on and they have tried to protect with their most recent proposals

The AP teams are doing everything they can to keep as much of the increased revenue as they can, why would they want to share. I can see why the Pro 12 teams would want to but why would the English? It goes against their own interests

Drivel.

All but a few Championship clubs have no desire to step up, hence them signing up to be buddy clubs. They know the barriers to entry to the top end of the game are too great for them to meet. Being a buddy club prevents them from being promoted.

So your point is entirely incorrect.

The English club interests would be served by increased revenue for all. They know they are struggling to meet the T14 as the most attractive league for the top stars to play in so are willing to see if a 'Lions League' would develop more revenue.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:29 am

marty2086 wrote:
There are no second tiers

The clubs in the leagues in those countries feed into the provinces and regions, they are essentially extensions of the clubs in their areas

There are a number of rugby clubs in Wales where you would receive a short, sharp education if you claimed that.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:30 am

marty2086 wrote:
Do either of those clubs actually help make up the other as is the case in Wales and Ireland?

There's that nonsense again.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:31 am

Munchkin wrote:
I'm a moron because I want facts and not your fictional drivel?  Smile

This really odd obsession you have with Irish rugby can't be healthy, and is probably symptomatic of deeper issue's. Maybe you should take a course in CBT.

You are a joke on here, just as you/Chunky/Dai are a running joke on PR. Even your own Welsh compatriots think you are nutjobs, and an embarrassment to them. You probably think we are all wrong and you are right o0

You are entertaining though, when you're not running away Laugh

You're a moron for the pure BS you wrote on Simon Thomas. And then you underlined that fact with the rest of the nonsense you wrote.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:31 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:

I believe Tigers often have players playing for Nottingham to get over injury and lots of Tigers players have come through the Nottingham structure, even though they sued to be old foes.

The point is - once PRL is ring-fenced I'm not sure it would be a stumbling block to a B&I League. It would be more of a plus.

There are far bigger stumbling blocks.

Exactly.

His claim is 100% nonsense.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:32 am

Clubs are willing to play in a lions league eh. Link please with them confirming this or is this an alternative fact?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Clubs are willing to play in a lions league eh. Link please with them confirming this or is this an alternative fact?

I didn't write "willing to play".

Conversing with you is very, very difficult (to the point of impossible) as you don't properly read what is written.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:42 am

So no link at all. Alternative fact.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:46 am

There must be one quote from a prl spokesman from this season?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:49 am

Saying we'd love to hand over power to unions, help some pro 12 sides catch up with us financially thus increasing competition for signings and risk the future of some of our members. Or something like that?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 10:51 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Phil lets just end it here because you have a serious issue with the Pro12, Ulster and god knows what else

Go get your panties untwisted and it may life more enjoyable for you

Or you know, therapy

"let's end it here" 

Code for when yet another of Martyn's fabricated, made up on the spot, arguments is undone by his own posts.

Excuse me? What did I fabricate?

Phil?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 11:00 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

If anything it makes it more difficult as you then have the second tier teams in England being denied a piece of the pie but the Pro 12 teams getting a share, do you think they'd be happy to sit back and allow it to happen?

It would also dilute the development process the RFU are big on and they have tried to protect with their most recent proposals

The AP teams are doing everything they can to keep as much of the increased revenue as they can, why would they want to share. I can see why the Pro 12 teams would want to but why would the English? It goes against their own interests

Drivel.

All but a few Championship clubs have no desire to step up, hence them signing up to be buddy clubs. They know the barriers to entry to the top end of the game are too great for them to meet. Being a buddy club prevents them from being promoted.

So your point is entirely incorrect.

The English club interests would be served by increased revenue for all. They know they are struggling to meet the T14 as the most attractive league for the top stars to play in so are willing to see if a 'Lions League' would develop more revenue.

Actually the fact the clubs below the AP have been told they will be cut loose and not get any funding unless they are buddy clubs probably is a pretty good reason to be signing up.

You keep talking about increased revenue yet can never actually explain how revenue is increased for the English clubs when the pie is being split 24 ways instead of 12. You do know 1/24 is smaller than 1/12?

As for struggling to meet the Top 14 as the most attractive league I think this shows who is speaking drivel

http://www.varsity.co.uk/sport/11047

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