The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Page 17 of 20 Previous  1 ... 10 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I stepped out and she stepped in again
I stepped out and she stepped in again
learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball


In thinking about recent goings-on at union level within the PRO12, I was reminded of the lyrics of this old song as unions, corporate interests, private investors, Welsh benefactors, and sundry money-makers make their various moves on the PRO12 dance floor.  Scotland and Ireland seem to be bashfully eyeing up the investor lads on one side of the hall, fluttering their eyelashes, whilst on the other side, the Welsh bennys (as they're affectionately known Wink ) are making tapes and throwing shapes, whilst secretly hoping eagerly that they might get a chance to sign the WRU's card for a dance or two.  Meanwhile, the Italians dither in the middle wondering where they should be but won't tell anyone that they don't know even the music.  

But for now the band has taken a break whilst the visiting Europeans and Anglo heavies make their way onto the floor to start their version of French/Anglo hopscotch involving a number of bulky partners, foreign tap dancers, celtic coaches, and comic millionaires.

It's a good a time as any for a quick cuppa and a chance to talk about where the PRO12 is going with all the plans for expansion to US and Europe suddenly gone quiet, some league quality improvements, big weekend derbies, more neutral officials, and what else is on the horizon for upcoming changes within the PRO12.

The looming spectre of dwindling money and funding ever more expensive teams for the future seems to be the next big issue and where that is all going to come from.   Hopes of improved TV deals, better sponsors and business supporters of the league remain a distant aspiration - although the recent appointment of a commercial director to work alongside Martin Anayi on securing the best deals possible seems to be a step in the right direction.  Some are holding their whisth on that one.

Ownership and financing of the teams themselves is the most urgent and vexing issue facing the four unions operating in the PRO12.  Over the last number of months, the SRU have been making a lot of noise and some news headlines with their plans to bring in private investment to its two Scottish clubs to help meet some of the ongoing costs involved.   The SRU says it can't continue to finance the two teams at current levels of revenue and costs, and they need to bring in private investors/business to meet a substantial portion of the costs in return for a stake in one or both of the two clubs.  How much that stake would be is not clear as the SRU would want to keep their hand in the two clubs responsible for generating its line of test players, but whether that would be a 51% stake or less remains to be seen.   A voting process in late 2016 saw members give the green light to the Scottish Union to pursue this path of identifying and securing potential investment but only time will tell if it will draw in any worthwhile investors.

Italian rugby seems to lurch from one crisis to the next with the FIR having to bail out both Treviso and Zebre in recent times with substantial commitments of money.  After the last crisis, which saw a number of players leave the two clubs, it is Treviso who have fared better with the backing of Bennetton, and it is Zebre who are staring down the barrel of closure at season end once again.  A new franchise, based in Rome, is being rumoured to be on the cards with the FIR willing to put financial support into its development.   For many within the PRO12, and without, the Italian project seems to be a wasted exercise and just amounts to weekly humiliation as opposition teams pile up the points, regularly taking home try bonus points in their victories. For others, the Italian involvement is a long game and one that has to be persevered with.    Yet, the FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby, the company which manages the PRO12 - the latest filings with the Companies Registration Office in Dublin shows that the three Celtic unions remain the founding shareholders, and critically, the beneficiaries of any financial dealing that flow through it - particularly in relation to TV broadcasting deals such as Sky Sports.  This current season, it took until Round 6 before an Italian broadcaster could be secured for covering the home matches of Treviso and Zebre, and with crowds often hovering around 1,500-2,000, this didn't raise many eyebrows.  for the foreseeable future, Italian rugby will stay within the PRO12, and the FIR will continue to be a major stakeholder/financier in the teams.

Irish rugby has been dabbling with business support for a number of years now with the provincial teams drawing in sponsorships, player salary top-ups, and increasing financial support for the various provinces through different types of schemes devised by the individual branches.   Jamie Heaslip recently re-signed with Leinster on what's likely to be his final playing contract before retirement (at age 37).  One of Ireland’s most consistent and durable players, he’s also been one of the most consistently highest paid through his IRFU central contract, and a salary top-up through his Leinster club with a business sponsorship deal with Bank of Ireland.  

But these adhoc business supports and extended sponsorships/player promotions and brand ambassadors do not fill the coffers of the branches sufficiently to grow and expand, it's sufficient only to pay the salaries of 2-3 players to keep them in place against ever higher competing offers from the TV-deal-enriched clubs in England and France.  As the IRFU pointed at the launch of its annual report last June, the IRFU cannot continue to be "the bank of last resort" for the provinces - following a €1 million plus bailout of Munster, and a €250k additional budget for each province to help them compete on player salaries.   A number of the provinces have sought quietly to persuade the IRFU to consider opening up the provinces’ branch company structures to allow private investors to take a stake in each of the provinces in return for continued investment over a period of time.  Until the last year, those overtures have been largely rebuffed with the occasional odd positive murmur about the need to keep control if such a development were to be envisaged.   It is rumoured that alongside the SRU’s current moves, the IRFU is also investigating how the branches’ structures could be altered to allow such investment in the future.  A variant of the NZRU model whereby they allowed private investors to take a stake in each of the five Super Rugby franchises is being considered, but the IRFU would want to maintain a controlling stake that gives them oversight and control in line with the current player management policy and protocols they have in place.  

As the IRFU have stated time and again, the revenues from the test game is what keeps the whole of Irish rugby afloat - interfering with or disabling that in some way is not something they would countenance.  Equally, the union recognises that costs will continue to rise in the PRO12 and wider club game with player salaries being biggest driver.   Their investment policy has switched from paying out large salaries to high-profile capped foreign players to investing in the domestic pathway development (€10m over the last 3 years) - with the emergence of some fine academy players across the provinces proving testament to this approach led by David Nucifora on behalf of the IRFU.

Nonetheless, the club game is getting bigger and more financially competitive so if a methodology can be developed to allow private investment takes its place at the table, it’s likely to happen over the next few years.  

But as two unions move across the dance floor looking for wealthy partners, the Welsh benefactors are being drawn (protestingly for some) from the other side by the WRU who have recently announced that they see the future of the Welsh game involving a marriage of both union and private investment funds.  As two unions prepare to step out, the Welsh union is preparing to step in again.   The Dragons region has been languishing in the shop window for the past year, gathering dust as various investor-type people amble up, take a poke and move off again without buying.   Martin Phillps was pushed recently in an interview to say that the WRU couldn't allow the region to fold, but he wasn't too specific in public as to what kind of support they might bring.  Equally, he was encouraged enough to say that increased union funding for the four regions seemed to be inevitable - but he didn't say what price they might extract for such investment.  Would the benefactors/shareholders be asked to move on, or move around the table to make more room for union faces to sit down?  

Whilst there are those who pine for a future whereby pure private investment and ownership rules the roost like their counterparts in England and France, the likelihood of that model being created and surviving does not seem to be on anyone's dance cards.   More likely, a marriage of convenience may be arrived at, wherein true love may never be expressed, but at least the two parties will be able to pay the mortgage together, and maybe afford a new extension or two in the near future to mix a few metaphors.

But for now, let the European hopscotch begin, and then the merry four-nation dance can begin again.

All together now:

Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Sixteen long years doin' nothing at all
Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Learning to dance at the PRO12 ball.

They stepped out, and they stepped in again......
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 5007
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 55
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down


Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:16 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
...
One benefit some may have missed out, if the SA teams can get some decent income coming in could we see a few SA stars from the other teams coming to play ProXX in the Super Rugby off season?

It's possible. Currently quite a few of them go and play in the Japanese league (it's a ~ 12 game season over Oct-Jan/Feb which fits nicely), I went to a game in Osaka in late 2015 where Etzebeth, Pollard, Kriel & Brussouw turned out for the Red Hurricanes.

However anyone trying to play both ProXX & SuperXX would run into the fixture clashes in Feb-May. Possibly early season injury jokers or International cover in the AIs (depending on the new European seasaon structure) could work though

Not sure how the overall logistics of it may work but short term deals akin to Skelton last season with Sarries, a handful of games after a short break.

It may be needed for the coming season if players are looking at two full seasons without a break. Bring in a handful from other teams mid season to give others a break and freshen them up for the run in

marty2086

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:25 pm

The European competition is a dying ember these days anyway. The French or English do not prioritise it, the interest from the fans is dying off, so I would concentrate 100% into our league if we still want to be competitive on the international stage.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11185
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
...
One benefit some may have missed out, if the SA teams can get some decent income coming in could we see a few SA stars from the other teams coming to play ProXX in the Super Rugby off season?

It's possible. Currently quite a few of them go and play in the Japanese league (it's a ~ 12 game season over Oct-Jan/Feb which fits nicely), I went to a game in Osaka in late 2015 where Etzebeth, Pollard, Kriel & Brussouw turned out for the Red Hurricanes.

However anyone trying to play both ProXX & SuperXX would run into the fixture clashes in Feb-May. Possibly early season injury jokers or International cover in the AIs (depending on the new European seasaon structure) could work though

Not sure how the overall logistics of it may work but short term deals akin to Skelton last season with Sarries, a handful of games after a short break.

It may be needed for the coming season if players are looking at two full seasons without a break. Bring in a handful from other teams mid season to give others a break and freshen them up for the run in

That's a good call. One (small) benefit for the SA lot is that they will get Euro weekends off. Both teams also have Currie Cup feeder sides (Cheetahs are defending champs), so can presumably call up players from there too - on the flip side, a lot of their players would have gone into Currie Cup over August-Oct, which I guess won't happen now.

Both SA sides will be finished in Super Rugby mid July, so there is a chance of giving the players a month or so off before an abbreviated ProXX pre-season
avatar
Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
V2 Editor
V2 Editor

Posts : 10925
Join date : 2011-01-26
Location : London, England

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The European competition is a dying ember these days anyway. The French or English do not prioritise it, the interest from the fans is dying off, so I would concentrate 100% into our league if we still want to be competitive on the international stage.

Really? Yet Sarries rested players in their final league game and missed out on a home semi in the AP to save players for the ERCC final

marty2086

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The European competition is a dying ember these days anyway. The French or English do not prioritise it, the interest from the fans is dying off, so I would concentrate 100% into our league if we still want to be competitive on the international stage.

Really? Yet Sarries rested players in their final league game and missed out on a home semi in the AP to save players for the ERCC final

Sarries have the squad to do that though.

Unless you are one of the big hitters, with a massive squad, then the priority is the league. Don't get me started on the second tier comp. Rolling Eyes

LordDowlais

Posts : 11185
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The European competition is a dying ember these days anyway. The French or English do not prioritise it, the interest from the fans is dying off, so I would concentrate 100% into our league if we still want to be competitive on the international stage.

Really? Yet Sarries rested players in their final league game and missed out on a home semi in the AP to save players for the ERCC final

Sarries have the squad to do that though.

Unless you are one of the big hitters, with a massive squad, then the priority is the league. Don't get me started on the second tier comp. Rolling Eyes

Everyones got the squad to go out and lose a game Whistle

So what was all of them prioritise the league now comes with a caveat?

With the exception of Sale all the English clubs put out full strength teams throughout the pool stages, Exeter played their full team in the final two pool games despite having little chance of qualifying against Ulster then did the same away to Clermont who also had a full strength team out even though they had already qualified quite easily

Guess none of them really tried though

marty2086

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:46 pm

There will be no one dropping out of the Pro12 - if the Saffers join it is 14 teams next year

Europe is going nowhere and I don't agree teams prioritise their leagues.
Teams get to a certain point in the season and make judgement calls.

Of this years Semi finalist if anything I reckon 3 prioritised Europe and even Clermont seemed to give the competitions even weight
Not one of them prioritised their league

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:48 pm

Depends on the side. The ERCC is big for most teams until after the 3rd round when it is clear whether you have a chance or not of progressing.

If they want every match to count, you could swap format to a straight home-and-away knock out competition (start with 32 teams and have 8 matches to reach the final). I don't think it would work.

Hazel Sapling

Posts : 939
Join date : 2015-05-26

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:54 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Depends on the side. The ERCC is big for most teams until after the 3rd round when it is clear whether you have a chance or not of progressing.

If they want every match to count, you could swap format to a straight home-and-away knock out competition (start with 32 teams and have 8 matches to reach the final). I don't think it would work.

The format doesn't generate the same level of income, its why UEFA changed the European Cup to the Champions League with the group stage instead of the straight knockout format

marty2086

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:49 pm

Think fairest way the conferences could be arranged,
The Welsh and Irish are spit 2 teams each (changes each year on league placing in overall table which teams, i.e. 1st and 3rd in group 1 each year) 2 of the other 3 unions teams are put in a conference together, with the 3rd ones teams split between conferences, the union with spilt teams changes each year.
i.e. year one 2 Scottish and 2 SA teams in separate conferences and Italians spilt, year 2 2 Italians and 2 Scottish, with SA split year 3 the 2 Scottish teams are split. Until the USA/CAN teams join

Once that happens, SA and Scottish teams are conference 1 and 2 Italy and USA/CAD in 1 and 2.
if the two SA teams are in conference 1 in year one and Scottish teams in conference 2, the next year they switch

Maybe USA/CAD and Italians switch every 2nd/3rd year

Welsh and Irish same as before, 1st and 3rd from each Union in conference one and 2nd and 4th in Conference 2

This should keep the conferences mixed up enough to create interest each year, meaning no team keeps getting the same teams and or derbies, and should be fair

Kingshu

Posts : 3416
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:09 pm

On the 7th July the Cheetahs and Kings will be formally kicked out of the Super 18

Cant see why we don't have an announcement soon after

As an aside does anyone know which Australian side is getting the boot

Some on Ulster site saying it will be a 26 game season !

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:12 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:On the 7th July the Cheetahs and Kings will be formally kicked out of the Super 18

Cant see why we don't have an announcement soon after

As an aside does anyone know which Australian side is getting the boot

Some on Ulster site saying it will be a 26 game season !

The Force are going OK at re-signing players. The Rebels not so much, so it's looking like them
avatar
Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
V2 Editor
V2 Editor

Posts : 10925
Join date : 2011-01-26
Location : London, England

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:15 pm

Cheers - I think they were always favourite but with legal threats who knows.
Will be interesting to see if an Aussie team is named on the 7th

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:18 pm

There's surely no way an Aussie team could be brought in to a domestic league tournament - it is a 24 hour flight away!

RDW_Scotland
Admin
Admin

Posts : 21436
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:20 pm

Kingshu wrote:Think fairest way the conferences could be arranged,
The Welsh and Irish are spit 2 teams each (changes each year on league placing in overall table which teams, i.e. 1st and 3rd in group 1 each year) 2 of the other 3 unions teams are put in a conference together, with the 3rd ones teams split between conferences, the union with spilt teams changes each year.
i.e. year one 2 Scottish and 2 SA teams in separate conferences and Italians spilt, year 2 2 Italians and 2 Scottish, with SA split year 3 the 2 Scottish teams are split. Until the USA/CAN teams join

Once that happens, SA and Scottish teams are conference 1 and 2 Italy and USA/CAD in 1 and 2.
if the two SA teams are in conference 1 in year one and Scottish teams in conference 2, the next year they switch

Maybe USA/CAD and Italians switch every 2nd/3rd year

Welsh and Irish same as before, 1st and 3rd from each Union in conference one and 2nd and 4th in Conference 2

This should keep the conferences mixed up enough to create interest each year, meaning no team keeps getting the same teams and or derbies, and should be fair

Splitting Welsh teams into different conferences will make no financial sense as the number of games played against your local rivals will be fewer than at present.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 3939
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:21 pm

No one is saying that

The Aussie team that get culled will go under (down under Yahoo Run )
The difference is the two culled Saffers teams have been given a lifeline in joining the Pro12

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:29 pm

PhilBB as I said above it could be done in such a way that the Welsh, and the Irish, only lose 1 local derby
and still get 22 games overall.
So big games can still be arranged in Cardiff.
For two of those teams the lost game will be an away game so only 2 teams lose a home derby.
So basically you lose 1 home derby every other year.

Given the increased TV revenue we will all be better off.

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:36 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:PhilBB as I said above it could be done in such a way that the Welsh, and the Irish, only lose 1 local derby
and still get 22 games overall.
So big games can still be arranged in Cardiff.
For two of those teams the lost game will be an away game so only 2 teams lose a home derby.
So basically you lose 1 home derby every other year.

Given the increased TV revenue we will all be better off.

All will be better off, but losing a derby will still make no commercial sense. Losing a home derby is going to set a club back into three figures (before the zero).

That needs to be quantified.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 3939
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:42 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:No one is saying that

The Aussie team that get culled will go under (down under Yahoo Run )
The difference is the two culled Saffers teams have been given a lifeline in joining the Pro12

Apologies I thought you meant it would be announced that they will be joining the Pro 12 - my bad!

RDW_Scotland
Admin
Admin

Posts : 21436
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:PhilBB as I said above it could be done in such a way that the Welsh, and the Irish, only lose 1 local derby
and still get 22 games overall.
So big games can still be arranged in Cardiff.
For two of those teams the lost game will be an away game so only 2 teams lose a home derby.
So basically you lose 1 home derby every other year.

Given the increased TV revenue we will all be better off.

All will be better off, but losing a derby will still make no commercial sense. Losing a home derby is going to set a club back into three figures (before the zero).

That needs to be quantified.

You will lose a home derby once every two years but gain a home game against Cheetahs or Southern Kings instead.

I think its a fair swap, especially if it allows all pro 12 teams to increase their budgets.

I think Scarlets V Cheetahs would appeal to Scarlets fans more than Scarlets V Dragons.

Kingshu

Posts : 3416
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:52 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:PhilBB as I said above it could be done in such a way that the Welsh, and the Irish, only lose 1 local derby
and still get 22 games overall.
So big games can still be arranged in Cardiff.
For two of those teams the lost game will be an away game so only 2 teams lose a home derby.
So basically you lose 1 home derby every other year.

Given the increased TV revenue we will all be better off.

All will be better off, but losing a derby will still make no commercial sense. Losing a home derby is going to set a club back into three figures (before the zero).

That needs to be quantified.

There are many Welsh derbies below 10,000 now particularly when the Dragons are involved.
Scarlets, the top club at the moment, had 3 games below 10,000 last year and the 2 Dragons were less 10,000 combined - hardly big money spinners


geoff999rugby

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:02 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:PhilBB as I said above it could be done in such a way that the Welsh, and the Irish, only lose 1 local derby
and still get 22 games overall.
So big games can still be arranged in Cardiff.
For two of those teams the lost game will be an away game so only 2 teams lose a home derby.
So basically you lose 1 home derby every other year.

Given the increased TV revenue we will all be better off.

All will be better off, but losing a derby will still make no commercial sense. Losing a home derby is going to set a club back into three figures (before the zero).

That needs to be quantified.

There are many Welsh derbies below 10,000 now particularly when the Dragons are involved.
Scarlets, the top club at the moment, had 3 games below 10,000 last year and the 2 Dragons were less 10,000 combined - hardly big money spinners


So what you are saying is that the move has the potential to increase attendances? As some people seem to be assuming that the attendances will automatically fall. The curiosity factor has the potential to help crowds


marty2086

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:07 pm

I wonder if they'll arrange the fixtures such that when SA are in the UK/Ireland they play Sunday then Friday to reduce the cost of the trip, and similarly when teams are in SA they do the same.

RDW_Scotland
Admin
Admin

Posts : 21436
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:15 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I wonder if they'll arrange the fixtures such that when SA are in the UK/Ireland they play Sunday then Friday to reduce the cost of the trip, and similarly when teams are in SA they do the same.

Or maybe even during November schedule the SA teams close to Springbok games and almost make it a double header to draw fans. SA are playing in Cardiff and Dublin this November as well as Padua so a game against Cardiff or Leinster the day before or earlier that day and the same with either Zebre or Treviso and attract some die hards in

marty2086

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:03 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:

There are many Welsh derbies below 10,000 now particularly when the Dragons are involved.
Scarlets, the top club at the moment, had 3 games below 10,000 last year and the 2 Dragons were less 10,000 combined - hardly big money spinners


What? They are the biggest games of the season. When you are losing over £1m a year, you can't afford to give away the games that bring in income of over £100k. I don't know where you are getting your attendance figures from.

6358
10159
13256

Those were the crowds for the home derbies at PyS last season
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 3939
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:04 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I wonder if they'll arrange the fixtures such that when SA are in the UK/Ireland they play Sunday then Friday to reduce the cost of the trip, and similarly when teams are in SA they do the same.

Or maybe even during November schedule the SA teams close to Springbok games and almost make it a double header to draw fans. SA are playing in Cardiff and Dublin this November as well as Padua so a game against Cardiff or Leinster the day before or earlier that day and the same with either Zebre or Treviso and attract some die hards in

Isn't the idea to NOT play during the international windows?
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 3939
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:48 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:

There are many Welsh derbies below 10,000 now particularly when the Dragons are involved.
Scarlets, the top club at the moment, had 3 games below 10,000 last year and the 2 Dragons were less 10,000 combined - hardly big money spinners


What? They are the biggest games of the season. When you are losing over £1m a year, you can't afford to give away the games that bring in income of over £100k. I don't know where you are getting your attendance figures from.

6358
10159
13256

Those were the crowds for the home derbies at PyS last season

I never said home games but 3 derbies in total, that's why I mentioned 2 games against Dragons.


The two games against Dragons home and away added up to less than 10000
Even saying you lose 5,000 fans at £30 a head that is £150,000
The extra money from TV will dwarf that.
All clubs will get more money under the new set up even if they lose 1 or even 2 derbies a year.
(my proposal is to lose 1 derby every other year)








geoff999rugby

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:05 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:

There are many Welsh derbies below 10,000 now particularly when the Dragons are involved.
Scarlets, the top club at the moment, had 3 games below 10,000 last year and the 2 Dragons were less 10,000 combined - hardly big money spinners


What? They are the biggest games of the season. When you are losing over £1m a year, you can't afford to give away the games that bring in income of over £100k. I don't know where you are getting your attendance figures from.

6358
10159
13256

Those were the crowds for the home derbies at PyS last season


Ospreys v Blues 10,860
Ospreys v Dragons 9,103
Ospreys V Scarlets 19,514

Scarlets v dragons 6,358
Scarlets v Blues 10,159
Scarlets v Ospreys 13,256

Dragons V ospreys 6,746
Dragons V Scarlets JD 60,642
Dragons v Blues 5,167

Blues v Scarlets 9,442
Blues V Dragons 11,654
Blues v Ospreys JD 60,642

Like the man said "There are many Welsh derbies below 10,000'
5 out of 12 or 41%

Geoff also said
"Scarlets, the top club at the moment, had 3 games below 10,000 last year"
I count a lot more
Scarlets v Munster 6,107
Scarlets v Connacht 5,630
Scarlets V Dragons 6,358
Scarlets v Glasgow 6,059
V leinster 6,164
V Ulster 6,593
V Zebre 5,989
V Edinburgh 6,637
v Treviso 6,080

Kingshu

Posts : 3416
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:12 pm

I was only pointing to all derbies below 10000 but you make a good point

In fact it is not unreasonable to assume that the novelty of playing SA teams will result in bigger crowds for the games against them - certainly more than the crowds you list.

The entire list suggest Scarlets have a core of 6000 and only get more against Cardiff and Ospreys (away supporters?)

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:39 pm

Well if you do split, why not make those games double headers?

For example, Ospreys and Scarlets in one conference, Newport and Cardiff in the other. Ospreys vs Cardiff and Scarlets vs Newport (both home games for the West teams) play a double header at Liberty in October. Cardiff vs Scarlets and Newport vs Ospreys is played at the Millenium Stadium in April.

Hazel Sapling

Posts : 939
Join date : 2015-05-26

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:01 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Well if you do split, why not make those games double headers?

For example, Ospreys and Scarlets in one conference, Newport and Cardiff in the other. Ospreys vs Cardiff and Scarlets vs Newport (both home games for the West teams) play a double header at Liberty in October. Cardiff vs Scarlets and Newport vs Ospreys is played at the Millenium Stadium in April.

Something along these lines would mean that nothing is lost in terms of revenue, and if properly though out may increase it.

I think this change may be at a good time for Welsh Rugby the Pro 12 has been looked down on for years while eyes turned longing to England.
The two SA sides may add the credible teams that they though England would provide, and more finance.
Scarlets as league champions should be on a high and be able to attract bigger crowds, and but some positives into Welsh rugby.

The best thing may be that the two SA sides that join are really dirty and good teams, so we can all unite in our dislike of them (i.e replacing England in 6 nations style lol)

Kingshu

Posts : 3416
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Stone Motif on Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:32 pm

Kingshu wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:Well if you do split, why not make those games double headers?

For example, Ospreys and Scarlets in one conference, Newport and Cardiff in the other. Ospreys vs Cardiff and Scarlets vs Newport (both home games for the West teams) play a double header at Liberty in October. Cardiff vs Scarlets and Newport vs Ospreys is played at the Millenium Stadium in April.

Something along these lines would mean that nothing is lost in terms of revenue, and if properly though out may increase it.

I think this change may be at a good time for Welsh Rugby the Pro 12 has been looked down on for years while eyes turned longing to England.
The two SA sides may add the credible teams that they though England would provide, and more finance.
Scarlets as league champions should be on a high and be able to attract bigger crowds, and but some positives into Welsh rugby.

The best thing may be that the two SA sides that join are really dirty and good teams, so we can all unite in our dislike of them (i.e replacing England in 6 nations style lol)

Do you make this stuff up on purpose? The 'longing eyes' have got nothing to do with credibility of opposition, but the massive economy on our doorstep and the TV and digital cash it gives access to.
avatar
Stone Motif

Posts : 2249
Join date : 2012-03-26
Location : Gwent Region

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by profitius on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:16 pm

The times have reported that the TV money will double to £22m due to south Africa's supersport putting in £11m. I presume that's for next season only before the rights and sponsorship are up for grabs.

Also it will be split into 2 groups of 7 and the teams in each group will play each other 3 times. So essentially more derby matches.


Also the Scotsman has mentioned a US team based in Washington DC. DC United's owner Will Chang being the potential new owner.
avatar
profitius

Posts : 3830
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:07 am

As much has I hate to agree with Phil, he is right.

Losing a derby would be financial suicide for the Welsh teams. If it goes to a vote, I would like to think the Welsh representatives veto the idea.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11185
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Hazel Sapling on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:34 am

profitius wrote:The times have reported that the TV money will double to £22m due to south Africa's supersport putting in £11m. I presume that's for next season only before the rights and sponsorship are up for grabs.

Also it will be split into 2 groups of 7 and the teams in each group will play each other 3 times. So essentially more derby matches.


Also the Scotsman has mentioned a US team based in Washington DC. DC United's owner Will Chang being the potential new owner.

So 18 games in the season?

Extra £500-600k each on TV money but lose 2 home games (probably during 6 nations) and could drop squad size by 2-3. Will be interesting to watch. Probably sort itself out by 2018-2019 after a bit of a mess this season

Hazel Sapling

Posts : 939
Join date : 2015-05-26

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:37 am

Good summary on the BBC from Tom English

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40464201

RDW_Scotland
Admin
Admin

Posts : 21436
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BigGee on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:53 am

With a conference system, the number of games can be manipulated to suit the numbers of games that you want each team to play, which I can't imagine will be significantly less than it is now. Not least because season tickets have already been sold on the basis of last years games.

I thought we were looking at each conference team playing each other home and away, then playing each team in the other conference once. That gives 19 games. If you add in an other couple of derby games that brings it up to 21, one less than now. That might just about be sellable, or they could simply add another game in as well and call it even.

BigGee

Posts : 3924
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:01 am

BigGee wrote:With a conference system, the number of games can be manipulated to suit the numbers of games that you want each team to play, which I can't imagine will be significantly less than it is now. Not least because season tickets have already been sold on the basis of last years games.

I thought we were looking at each conference team playing each other home and away, then playing each team in the other conference once. That gives 19 games. If you add in an other couple of derby games that brings it up to 21, one less than now. That might just about be sellable, or they could simply add another game in as well and call it even.

How would that work in terms of a table - would it all be pulled into one even though there's two conferences?

The fixture list would be a nightmare to pull together given that teams who travel to South Africa would want to play both teams while they're there, yet each South African team will be in a separate conference...

RDW_Scotland
Admin
Admin

Posts : 21436
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BigGee on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:32 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
BigGee wrote:With a conference system, the number of games can be manipulated to suit the numbers of games that you want each team to play, which I can't imagine will be significantly less than it is now. Not least because season tickets have already been sold on the basis of last years games.

I thought we were looking at each conference team playing each other home and away, then playing each team in the other conference once. That gives 19 games. If you add in an other couple of derby games that brings it up to 21, one less than now. That might just about be sellable, or they could simply add another game in as well and call it even.

How would that work in terms of a table - would it all be pulled into one even though there's two conferences?

The fixture list would be a nightmare to pull together given that teams who travel to South Africa would want to play both teams while they're there, yet each South African team will be in a separate conference...

It won't be easy to arrange fixtures, but nit impossible either. I guess that is why there has been a defeaning silence on the fixtures front so far from the clubs and the Pro 12.

I think both conferences will be stand alone and the top three into the play offs, the winner getting a bye straight into the semis and presumably home advantage.

BigGee

Posts : 3924
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:35 am

The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11185
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

I think that you are saying that in hope that the 4 Welsh regions are kept together in one soft Conference and the Provinces are together in the other.

I take it you wish the Italians in the regions conference, and would be upset if they are not. Split the Scottish teams and you have Edinburgh and the provinces conference have Glasgow, and the SA sides?

Kingshu

Posts : 3416
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

Even if they were going to get even more money from the increase in tv revenue? Really?

marty2086

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:42 am

Being slightly selfish here, form a Scarlets fan point of view. I've bought my season ticket for next season, based on 11 home league games, if it goes down to only 6 home games due to it being a confrence then that is a shaft as the price for a game has pretty much doubled. I know it is a petty reason for being against it, but you think of the amount of season tickets bought for all the Pro12 sides by now already, and that is a fair number of fans that could be getting the middle finger. And also if Sky are gonna put up more money they'll want more games, which will mean less on BBC/S4C, so again another shaft to the fans as that'll more or less mean any away game will be on sky (as we are the Pro12 Champs, had to get it in there Smile ), so another bunch of cash taken from our pockets to see those games.

Honestly, the only people who i can see winning from this, especially in conferences, would be Sky and the South Africans, and the losers will be the fans.
avatar
ScarletSpiderman

Posts : 9631
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 32
Location : Pembs

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BigGee on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:42 am

The fact that none of the unions have come out and made any negative comments about this, despite it being in the public domain now, suggests they are all broadly behind the idea. The leaks so far have been fairly controlled just to wet everyones appetite and so that it is not a total shock.

I would imagine it is all largely drawn up and the full details will be announced not long after the two SA sides get booted out of Super Rugby on the 7th July.

BigGee

Posts : 3924
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:45 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

Even if they were going to get even more money from the increase in tv revenue? Really?

Damn straight. Look at the regional attendances, and listen to the majority of the regional fans (sepecially during the HEC/RCC war), the derby games are the most important fixtures of the season.
avatar
ScarletSpiderman

Posts : 9631
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 32
Location : Pembs

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:48 am

Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

I think that you are saying that in hope that the 4 Welsh regions are kept together in one soft Conference and the Provinces are together in the other.

I take it you wish the Italians in the regions conference, and would be upset if they are not. Split the Scottish teams and you have Edinburgh and the provinces conference have Glasgow, and the SA sides?

To me the only logical way is to go

Irish, Scottish (or South Africans), Treviso
Welsh, South Africans (or Scottish), Zebre

Only put the Scottish with the Irish as the Irish are generally the league leaders, so they deserve the 'easier' of the Scottish/South Africans, although I can understand they may want the South Africans for teh better TV coveragee etc.
avatar
ScarletSpiderman

Posts : 9631
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 32
Location : Pembs

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BigGee on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:51 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Honestly, the only people who i can see winning from this, especially in conferences, would be Sky and the South Africans, and the losers will be the fans.

In the slightly longer term, if the league does not do something like this (and there are not many other viable options on the table) then we will all lose out. We will lose our best players to the bigger leagues and just get swamped. We are hanging on by our shoe laces at the moment. A lot of Glasgow fans are moaning about this as well, but they will moan even louder when we start losing Hogg, Russell and Gray to the French leagues once their contracts come up for renewal.

It may well be a bit messy at first but hopefully it will begin to settle down and we will get used to it. The fixtures will be worked out and somehow and I don't see us losing many, if any games.

I don't want my team to be playing in a second division league and if radical changes are not made that can bring in substantially more revenue, that is what is going to happen. The Pro 12 is not in a strong position and we need to face up to that.

BigGee

Posts : 3924
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:57 am

Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

I think that you are saying that in hope that the 4 Welsh regions are kept together in one soft Conference and the Provinces are together in the other.

I take it you wish the Italians in the regions conference, and would be upset if they are not. Split the Scottish teams and you have Edinburgh and the provinces conference have Glasgow, and the SA sides?

Rolling Eyes

The last thing I would want is the Italians in our conference, why would I ? there is no interest from the Welsh public to go and watch those two teams.

The thing is, and funny how this might seem, but the Welsh public are mostly interested in watching the Welsh teams, thus when you get a Welsh V Welsh game, you do not only get the home support, but you also get a lot of travelling fans from the away team and a lot of day trippers as well. In terms of regional rugby, it's a real money spinner.


LordDowlais

Posts : 11185
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:00 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

Even if they were going to get even more money from the increase in tv revenue? Really?

Damn straight.  Look at the regional attendances, and listen to the majority of the regional fans (sepecially during the HEC/RCC war), the derby games are the most important fixtures of the season.

Says a lot about the mentality in Wales then, need to break out of your own bubble

Personally I think the best approach is increased fixtures for the coming season and then revert to conferences after that if/when they add some N. American teams

marty2086

Posts : 7750
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:02 pm

Would the Welsh derbies have the same appeal if they form the majority of games in a season? I.e. if each welsh team plays each other 3 times a season instead of 2 could it become overkill?

RDW_Scotland
Admin
Admin

Posts : 21436
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 17 of 20 Previous  1 ... 10 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum