The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I stepped out and she stepped in again
I stepped out and she stepped in again
learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball


In thinking about recent goings-on at union level within the PRO12, I was reminded of the lyrics of this old song as unions, corporate interests, private investors, Welsh benefactors, and sundry money-makers make their various moves on the PRO12 dance floor.  Scotland and Ireland seem to be bashfully eyeing up the investor lads on one side of the hall, fluttering their eyelashes, whilst on the other side, the Welsh bennys (as they're affectionately known Wink ) are making tapes and throwing shapes, whilst secretly hoping eagerly that they might get a chance to sign the WRU's card for a dance or two.  Meanwhile, the Italians dither in the middle wondering where they should be but won't tell anyone that they don't know even the music.  

But for now the band has taken a break whilst the visiting Europeans and Anglo heavies make their way onto the floor to start their version of French/Anglo hopscotch involving a number of bulky partners, foreign tap dancers, celtic coaches, and comic millionaires.

It's a good a time as any for a quick cuppa and a chance to talk about where the PRO12 is going with all the plans for expansion to US and Europe suddenly gone quiet, some league quality improvements, big weekend derbies, more neutral officials, and what else is on the horizon for upcoming changes within the PRO12.

The looming spectre of dwindling money and funding ever more expensive teams for the future seems to be the next big issue and where that is all going to come from.   Hopes of improved TV deals, better sponsors and business supporters of the league remain a distant aspiration - although the recent appointment of a commercial director to work alongside Martin Anayi on securing the best deals possible seems to be a step in the right direction.  Some are holding their whisth on that one.

Ownership and financing of the teams themselves is the most urgent and vexing issue facing the four unions operating in the PRO12.  Over the last number of months, the SRU have been making a lot of noise and some news headlines with their plans to bring in private investment to its two Scottish clubs to help meet some of the ongoing costs involved.   The SRU says it can't continue to finance the two teams at current levels of revenue and costs, and they need to bring in private investors/business to meet a substantial portion of the costs in return for a stake in one or both of the two clubs.  How much that stake would be is not clear as the SRU would want to keep their hand in the two clubs responsible for generating its line of test players, but whether that would be a 51% stake or less remains to be seen.   A voting process in late 2016 saw members give the green light to the Scottish Union to pursue this path of identifying and securing potential investment but only time will tell if it will draw in any worthwhile investors.

Italian rugby seems to lurch from one crisis to the next with the FIR having to bail out both Treviso and Zebre in recent times with substantial commitments of money.  After the last crisis, which saw a number of players leave the two clubs, it is Treviso who have fared better with the backing of Bennetton, and it is Zebre who are staring down the barrel of closure at season end once again.  A new franchise, based in Rome, is being rumoured to be on the cards with the FIR willing to put financial support into its development.   For many within the PRO12, and without, the Italian project seems to be a wasted exercise and just amounts to weekly humiliation as opposition teams pile up the points, regularly taking home try bonus points in their victories. For others, the Italian involvement is a long game and one that has to be persevered with.    Yet, the FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby, the company which manages the PRO12 - the latest filings with the Companies Registration Office in Dublin shows that the three Celtic unions remain the founding shareholders, and critically, the beneficiaries of any financial dealing that flow through it - particularly in relation to TV broadcasting deals such as Sky Sports.  This current season, it took until Round 6 before an Italian broadcaster could be secured for covering the home matches of Treviso and Zebre, and with crowds often hovering around 1,500-2,000, this didn't raise many eyebrows.  for the foreseeable future, Italian rugby will stay within the PRO12, and the FIR will continue to be a major stakeholder/financier in the teams.

Irish rugby has been dabbling with business support for a number of years now with the provincial teams drawing in sponsorships, player salary top-ups, and increasing financial support for the various provinces through different types of schemes devised by the individual branches.   Jamie Heaslip recently re-signed with Leinster on what's likely to be his final playing contract before retirement (at age 37).  One of Ireland’s most consistent and durable players, he’s also been one of the most consistently highest paid through his IRFU central contract, and a salary top-up through his Leinster club with a business sponsorship deal with Bank of Ireland.  

But these adhoc business supports and extended sponsorships/player promotions and brand ambassadors do not fill the coffers of the branches sufficiently to grow and expand, it's sufficient only to pay the salaries of 2-3 players to keep them in place against ever higher competing offers from the TV-deal-enriched clubs in England and France.  As the IRFU pointed at the launch of its annual report last June, the IRFU cannot continue to be "the bank of last resort" for the provinces - following a €1 million plus bailout of Munster, and a €250k additional budget for each province to help them compete on player salaries.   A number of the provinces have sought quietly to persuade the IRFU to consider opening up the provinces’ branch company structures to allow private investors to take a stake in each of the provinces in return for continued investment over a period of time.  Until the last year, those overtures have been largely rebuffed with the occasional odd positive murmur about the need to keep control if such a development were to be envisaged.   It is rumoured that alongside the SRU’s current moves, the IRFU is also investigating how the branches’ structures could be altered to allow such investment in the future.  A variant of the NZRU model whereby they allowed private investors to take a stake in each of the five Super Rugby franchises is being considered, but the IRFU would want to maintain a controlling stake that gives them oversight and control in line with the current player management policy and protocols they have in place.  

As the IRFU have stated time and again, the revenues from the test game is what keeps the whole of Irish rugby afloat - interfering with or disabling that in some way is not something they would countenance.  Equally, the union recognises that costs will continue to rise in the PRO12 and wider club game with player salaries being biggest driver.   Their investment policy has switched from paying out large salaries to high-profile capped foreign players to investing in the domestic pathway development (€10m over the last 3 years) - with the emergence of some fine academy players across the provinces proving testament to this approach led by David Nucifora on behalf of the IRFU.

Nonetheless, the club game is getting bigger and more financially competitive so if a methodology can be developed to allow private investment takes its place at the table, it’s likely to happen over the next few years.  

But as two unions move across the dance floor looking for wealthy partners, the Welsh benefactors are being drawn (protestingly for some) from the other side by the WRU who have recently announced that they see the future of the Welsh game involving a marriage of both union and private investment funds.  As two unions prepare to step out, the Welsh union is preparing to step in again.   The Dragons region has been languishing in the shop window for the past year, gathering dust as various investor-type people amble up, take a poke and move off again without buying.   Martin Phillps was pushed recently in an interview to say that the WRU couldn't allow the region to fold, but he wasn't too specific in public as to what kind of support they might bring.  Equally, he was encouraged enough to say that increased union funding for the four regions seemed to be inevitable - but he didn't say what price they might extract for such investment.  Would the benefactors/shareholders be asked to move on, or move around the table to make more room for union faces to sit down?  

Whilst there are those who pine for a future whereby pure private investment and ownership rules the roost like their counterparts in England and France, the likelihood of that model being created and surviving does not seem to be on anyone's dance cards.   More likely, a marriage of convenience may be arrived at, wherein true love may never be expressed, but at least the two parties will be able to pay the mortgage together, and maybe afford a new extension or two in the near future to mix a few metaphors.

But for now, let the European hopscotch begin, and then the merry four-nation dance can begin again.

All together now:

Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Sixteen long years doin' nothing at all
Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Learning to dance at the PRO12 ball.

They stepped out, and they stepped in again......
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 2:16 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:EPCR has announced that they have sold the pay tv rights to BT from 2018/19, so that should see a boost in revenue for everyone.

They have reserved the free to air rights after a trial in France was successful and saw a boost in income.

So it looks like things are looking brighter for everyone

Someone over on Munsterfans is saying that the deal is 20% less than the combined BT/Sky deal that was in operation.

Erm

Goes to show you shouldn't make assumptions, not sure how it makes sense.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 2:19 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:EPCR has announced that they have sold the pay tv rights to BT from 2018/19, so that should see a boost in revenue for everyone.

They have reserved the free to air rights after a trial in France was successful and saw a boost in income.

So it looks like things are looking brighter for everyone

Someone over on Munsterfans is saying that the deal is 20% less than the combined BT/Sky deal that was in operation.

TBH I don't mind that too much, the pro12 co-hort have a floor to their allocation out of the pot. It was the sweetener to giving up the control and voting rights to the English and French. The LNR and PRL will win out in the long term once tv revenues start increasing. But for now, let's enjoy the meritocracy of the more competitive condensed top flight competition.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 3:17 pm

It's an odd thing to claim whilst the free to air contract is still to be sold.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Sin é on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 3:57 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:EPCR has announced that they have sold the pay tv rights to BT from 2018/19, so that should see a boost in revenue for everyone.

They have reserved the free to air rights after a trial in France was successful and saw a boost in income.

So it looks like things are looking brighter for everyone

Someone over on Munsterfans is saying that the deal is 20% less than the combined BT/Sky deal that was in operation.

Erm

Goes to show you shouldn't make assumptions, not sure how it makes sense.

It makes sense in that people were losing viewers of the competition because the broadcasting was all over the shop (when on different channels).
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Sin é on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 3:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:It's an odd thing to claim whilst the free to air contract is still to be sold.

Won't BT be selling that in UK and Ireland, not the ERCC?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BamBam on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 4:05 pm

I reckon it'll work like the Champions League football free to air - ie it goes on the BT Showcase channel

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 4:07 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:EPCR has announced that they have sold the pay tv rights to BT from 2018/19, so that should see a boost in revenue for everyone.

They have reserved the free to air rights after a trial in France was successful and saw a boost in income.

So it looks like things are looking brighter for everyone

Someone over on Munsterfans is saying that the deal is 20% less than the combined BT/Sky deal that was in operation.

Erm

Goes to show you shouldn't make assumptions, not sure how it makes sense.

It makes sense in that people were losing viewers of the competition because the broadcasting was all over the shop (when on different channels).

Sky and BT as a whole are losing viewers though, BTs viewing figures are way below Skys and Skys Premier League coverage is haemorrhaging viewers

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 4:08 pm

BamBam wrote:I reckon it'll work like the Champions League football free to air - ie it goes on the BT Showcase channel

Sky have a new free to air sports channel

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 4:43 pm

Sin é wrote:
PhilBB wrote:It's an odd thing to claim whilst the free to air contract is still to be sold.

Won't BT be selling that in UK and Ireland, not the ERCC?


No.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 4:44 pm

marty2086 wrote:
BamBam wrote:I reckon it'll work like the Champions League football free to air - ie it goes on the BT Showcase channel

Sky have a new free to air sports channel
Where?
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BamBam on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 4:51 pm

Sky have Sky Sports Mix which is included with their basic packages for non sports subscribers

BT Showcase is on Freeview, and is free for non BT subscribers on Sky and Virgin too

Think it would be odd if they didn't follow the same approach they use for the free to air European football

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Tue 04 Jul 2017, 5:03 pm

Is it not only the final BT show free to air?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 11:16 am

I wonder if since the new SA sides will maybe have to play some home games in Europe this year, the talk is to try and get them in London, (though this will depend on the RFU among other things) I wonder will they also or instead try double headers in the 4 other countries?
It would be a nice introduction, to the SA teams for fans. Say:
Kings V Dragons and Cheetahs V Blues Double Header in the Principality Stadium

Kings V Connacht and Cheetahs V Leinster Double Header in the Aviva

Kings V Edinburgh and Cheetahs V Glasgow Double Header in Murryfield

and hopefully Double Header Kings V Ulster and Cheetahs V Munster in Twickenham/Sloop

If the SA sides cannot play home games in Dec/Jan this could be an alternative, for this year until things can be settled of next year.
This may help with fans possibly losing out on a home game this year if it goes to conferences. Generates interest in the SA sides, would hopefully generate TV interest in Pro 14 for next year, would benefit the SA sides and hosting Unions. Th only downside is the SA fans lose home games, but this was possible always the case for this year.



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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BigGee on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 11:26 am

To be honest, they may always be looking to play some of their home games in Europe even as things progress. January and February are really hot in SA and probably not suitable for rugby matches.

If they could work on the logistics of some of those potential double headers, that could be a really good idea as well.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 11:27 am

Kingshu wrote:I wonder if since the new SA sides will maybe have to play some home games in Europe this year, the talk is to try and get them in London, (though this will depend on the RFU among other things) I wonder will they also or instead try double headers in the 4 other countries?
It would be a nice introduction, to the SA teams for fans. Say:
Kings V Dragons and Cheetahs V Blues Double Header in the Principality Stadium

Kings V Connacht and Cheetahs V Leinster Double Header in the Aviva

Kings V Edinburgh and Cheetahs V Glasgow Double Header in Murryfield

and hopefully Double Header Kings V Ulster and Cheetahs V Munster in Twickenham/Sloop

If the SA sides cannot play home games in Dec/Jan this could be an alternative, for this year until things can be settled of next year.
This may help with fans possibly losing out on a home game this year if it goes to conferences. Generates interest in the SA sides, would hopefully generate TV interest in Pro 14 for next year, would benefit the SA sides and hosting Unions. Th only downside is the SA fans lose home games, but this was possible always the case for this year.



The alternative for the SA fans is that they get no games which is what would happen so a case of something is better than nothing for them

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 11:29 am

Kingshu wrote:I wonder if since the new SA sides will maybe have to play some home games in Europe this year, the talk is to try and get them in London, (though this will depend on the RFU among other things) I wonder will they also or instead try double headers in the 4 other countries?
It would be a nice introduction, to the SA teams for fans. Say:
Kings V Dragons and Cheetahs V Blues Double Header in the Principality Stadium

Kings V Connacht and Cheetahs V Leinster Double Header in the Aviva

Kings V Edinburgh and Cheetahs V Glasgow Double Header in Murryfield

and hopefully Double Header Kings V Ulster and Cheetahs V Munster in Twickenham/Sloop

If the SA sides cannot play home games in Dec/Jan this could be an alternative, for this year until things can be settled of next year.
This may help with fans possibly losing out on a home game this year if it goes to conferences. Generates interest in the SA sides, would hopefully generate TV interest in Pro 14 for next year, would benefit the SA sides and hosting Unions. Th only downside is the SA fans lose home games, but this was possible always the case for this year.



That's a good idea - they could even do a triple double header. Murrayfield one week, MS the next then finish at Aviva.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wolfball on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 11:38 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Kingshu wrote:I wonder if since the new SA sides will maybe have to play some home games in Europe this year, the talk is to try and get them in London, (though this will depend on the RFU among other things) I wonder will they also or instead try double headers in the 4 other countries?
It would be a nice introduction, to the SA teams for fans. Say:
Kings V Dragons and Cheetahs V Blues Double Header in the Principality Stadium

Kings V Connacht and Cheetahs V Leinster Double Header in the Aviva

Kings V Edinburgh and Cheetahs V Glasgow Double Header in Murryfield

and hopefully Double Header Kings V Ulster and Cheetahs V Munster in Twickenham/Sloop

If the SA sides cannot play home games in Dec/Jan this could be an alternative, for this year until things can be settled of next year.
This may help with fans possibly losing out on a home game this year if it goes to conferences. Generates interest in the SA sides, would hopefully generate TV interest in Pro 14 for next year, would benefit the SA sides and hosting Unions. Th only downside is the SA fans lose home games, but this was possible always the case for this year.



That's a good idea - they could even do a triple double header. Murrayfield one week, MS the next then finish at Aviva.

SIX HEADS!

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 11:40 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Kingshu wrote:I wonder if since the new SA sides will maybe have to play some home games in Europe this year, the talk is to try and get them in London, (though this will depend on the RFU among other things) I wonder will they also or instead try double headers in the 4 other countries?
It would be a nice introduction, to the SA teams for fans. Say:
Kings V Dragons and Cheetahs V Blues Double Header in the Principality Stadium

Kings V Connacht and Cheetahs V Leinster Double Header in the Aviva

Kings V Edinburgh and Cheetahs V Glasgow Double Header in Murryfield

and hopefully Double Header Kings V Ulster and Cheetahs V Munster in Twickenham/Sloop

If the SA sides cannot play home games in Dec/Jan this could be an alternative, for this year until things can be settled of next year.
This may help with fans possibly losing out on a home game this year if it goes to conferences. Generates interest in the SA sides, would hopefully generate TV interest in Pro 14 for next year, would benefit the SA sides and hosting Unions. Th only downside is the SA fans lose home games, but this was possible always the case for this year.



That's a good idea - they could even do a triple double header. Murrayfield one week, MS the next then finish at Aviva.

Think fans who have purchased a season ticket and are losing a home game (if we go to conferences) may find a ticket to what is officially an away game, double header, in the national stadium a fair compromise?

May add Double Header Kings V Ospreys and Cheetahs V Scarlets in the Liberty Stadium as another possibility?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:46 am

And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:29 am

PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Who's paying ?

The regions can just about get by as it is.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Griff on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:52 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Who's paying ?

The regions can just about get by as it is.


Stop bl00dy moaning, FFS!

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:54 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Who's paying ?

The regions can just about get by as it is.

Im sure the increase in tv revenue won't hurt from the SAs joining, Im sure there will be a extra few quid for the Yanks joining plus the Sky deal runs out at the end of this season, that's likely to see more money coming in when a new deal is negotiated so to answer your question

Not a clue...

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 10:33 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Who's paying ?

The regions can just about get by as it is.

Well according to Geoff the travel for the SA sides joining travel is being covered by a major airline, like the toronto wolfpack deal.
According to BBC each team will also earn £500,000-800,000 extra, by adding the SA sides.
So travel costs shouldn't be a feature this year.

If the travel can be increased to include US/CAD with the airline, thats fantastic, if not another deal may be able to be made.

Martin Anayi seams to be doing a good job in trying to bring the income generated by the Pro 12 up to levels where we can keep up with the Jeff and Top 14

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 10:46 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Who's paying ?

The regions can just about get by as it is.

SA and USA tv, unlike Irish TV.

And the good news is there should be no loss of Welsh derbies. They will be included regardless of the conference make up
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 10:47 am

Kingshu wrote:
Martin Anayi seams to be doing a good job in trying to bring the income generated by the Pro 12 up to levels where we can keep up with the Jeff and Top 14

Trying, yes, but this deal still won't get us near to the English or French leagues.

Still, its all about a land grab in SA so that's the starting point.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 11:07 am

Expansion would drastically alter the travel time for teams involved. At present there are no major distances between competing teams. Scotland to Italy is a 3-hour flight. Johannesburg to London is far further, taking 12 hours. From there connections would be required to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. A flight from Washington DC to Ireland is notably shorter, taking around 7 hours.

Houston had initially been proposed as the location for a USA side. Sources close to Americas Rugby News have said the Texan bid was considered underwhelming by Pro 12 authorities. Moreover flight time from Houston to the UK or Ireland is two hours further than from Washington DC. Investors were also keen on New York but logistics and timing have proved a major obstacle.

The proposed venue for home games is Audi Field, a new stadium currently under construction that will also house Major League Soccer franchise DC United. Its planned capacity is 20,000. Current USA Rugby Chairman of the Board Will Chang is a former investor in DC United but sold his 35% stake in 2016.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by VinceWLB on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 11:38 am

PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Griff on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 11:45 am

VinceWLB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

Aren't Sunwolves more competitive than Zebre/Aironi have been? Maybe even include Dragons in there, before someone mentions it!

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by VinceWLB on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 11:52 am

Griff wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

Aren't Sunwolves more competitive than Zebre/Aironi have been?  Maybe even include Dragons in there, before someone mentions it!

I'm not sure, they are similar i think but we don't want another of those! This is why London Welsh and London Scottish weren't great ideas. If Kings and Cheetahs can keep their current roster, i'm certain they would add to the league, unlike an US team.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Eejit on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 11:55 am

Griff wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

Aren't Sunwolves more competitive than Zebre/Aironi have been?  Maybe even include Dragons in there, before someone mentions it!

I think they've only ever won a single game which was a few weeks back. They drew a game last season and have lost the rest.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 11:59 am

VinceWLB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

Why would they ship 90 points?

If they were to bring together most of their Test players who then get to train together daily then they would surely be competitive?


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 11:59 am

Eejit wrote:
Griff wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

Aren't Sunwolves more competitive than Zebre/Aironi have been?  Maybe even include Dragons in there, before someone mentions it!

I think they've only ever won a single game which was a few weeks back. They drew a game last season and have lost the rest.

Sunwolves won 1 and drew 1 last year

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by VinceWLB on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 12:24 pm

marty2086 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

Why would they ship 90 points?

If they were to bring together most of their Test players who then get to train together daily then they would surely be competitive?


Maybe, but Sunwolves were supposed to have most of their Japanese test players as well. This hasn't turned out too greatly.

There is too much concurrence from other sports in the US. This is a bad idea, different timezone notwithstanding.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 12:25 pm

marty2086 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

Why would they ship 90 points?

If they were to bring together most of their Test players who then get to train together daily then they would surely be competitive?


Yeah, like what is happening with the Italian national side and their teams.....hang on. Laugh

Look, I am not against change, I am all for it. Lets just not get ahead of ourselves. If these teams from other countries actually add something to our league then bring it on.

I just do not want us to get our pants pulled down, we all thought like this when we were asking the Italians to join, but where have they got us ?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 12:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:And it looks like we're all off to Washington in 2018-19

Please not this crap.

Cheetahs and Kings are ok and will be great additions to the league as they are proven teams. But please no US team unless you want it to ship 90 points away to Leinster a la Sunwolves.

Why would they ship 90 points?

If they were to bring together most of their Test players who then get to train together daily then they would surely be competitive?


Yeah, like what is happening with the Italian national side and their teams.....hang on. Laugh

Look, I am not against change, I am all for it. Lets just not get ahead of ourselves. If these teams from other countries actually add something to our league then bring it on.

I just do not want us to get our pants pulled down, we all thought like this when we were asking the Italians to join, but where have they got us ?

You see the 's' you put at the end of team, that's multiple so its a little different splitting your squad than having it concentrated into one like the Jaguares do

The Italians joined when they hadn't the structures and setups in place, the SA teams have all the existing infrastructure in place. The American team would be more interesting but they have a year to sort everything out and were already able to get their top players into a centralised system with the ProRugby league

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 12:57 pm

marty2086 wrote:The Italians joined when they hadn't the structures and setups in place, the SA teams have all the existing infrastructure in place. The American team would be more interesting but they have a year to sort everything out and were already able to get their top players into a centralised system with the ProRugby league

Why does the length of time matter ? History shows it doesn't. Italy have been involved for years and their two teams are still not up to it, and neither is their international side.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 1:04 pm

If USA get a lot of their international players they could put together a decent team, some players at the bigger clubs

Joe Taufete'e Hooker Worcester Warriors
Titi Lamositele prop Saracens
Paddy Ryan prop Newcastle Falcons
Eric Fry prop was Newcastle Falcons
Greg Peterson Lock Glasgow Warriors
Nick Civetta Lock Newcastle Falcons
Todd Clever Flanker Austin Huns (used to be good)
Tony Lamborn Flanker Hawke's Bay
Cam Dolan no 8 Cardiff Blues
David Tameilau no 8 Narbonne
AJ MacGinty Fly-half Sale Sharks
Marcel Brache Centre Western Force
Chris Wyles wing Saracens
Blaine Scully wing Cardiff Blues
Takudzwa Ngwenya wing Brive

Not a bad starting point add in a few NUSQ, and its the start of a promising team


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 1:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The Italians joined when they hadn't the structures and setups in place, the SA teams have all the existing infrastructure in place. The American team would be more interesting but they have a year to sort everything out and were already able to get their top players into a centralised system with the ProRugby league

Why does the length of time matter ? History shows it doesn't. Italy have been involved for years and their two teams are still not up to it, and neither is their international side.

Because a year gives the Yanks time to get their players on board, that's a lot easier than getting them for a few weeks time

The Italians did things backwards and have been in transition since they joined for one reason or another

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 2:23 pm

Anyway, like I said, if the add something positive to our league bring it on, but we do not want another scenario where we invite teams and they are weight around our necks.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 2:30 pm

What we need is a scenario that doesn't end up with Wales complaining all the time


Run

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 2:35 pm

I'm not complaining, just being cautious.Very Happy

Lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are now going into the land of milk and honey.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 2:46 pm


land of milk and honey

a country where living conditions are good and people have the opportunity to make a lot of money:

Many Mexicans regard the United States as a land of milk and honey.

Whistle

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 4:52 pm

Rugby is one of the fastest growing college sports and, even with the NFL/MLB doing a Sky with their viewers, there are huge potential markets. Washington DC makes sense with the stadium though I would prefer Boston or Miami if there was a good stadium.investors.

They should make space for NY where huge numbers claim they are Italian and Irish (my Dad from Glasgow was once told by a bartender that one of their waitress's was Scots. When she came over it turned out her great-grandfather had come over around a century ago picard ). We should have learned this from the Italians not going to Rome or Milan. Economic capitals have much more leeway and many more potential investors.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 07 Jul 2017, 9:05 am

Cheetahs and Kings are officially out of Super Rugby next year (Cheetahs "amicably agreed" a termination of their participation agreement through to 2020 with the SARU)
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri 07 Jul 2017, 9:18 am

Hazel, DC is a stronghold for rugby in the US, Boston and Miami aren't so it may be more difficult to draw crowds. The investor for the team is Paul Sheehy a former international who is involved in college rugby, so it could help with developing players for the team.

Treviso and Zebre are the Italian teams because they play in the heartland of Italian rugby, the lack of success though doesn't draw the fans in and they don't play an attractive brand of rugby that can put fans on the edge of their seat.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri 07 Jul 2017, 9:19 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Cheetahs and Kings are officially out of Super Rugby next year (Cheetahs "amicably agreed" a termination of their participation agreement through to 2020 with the SARU)

And have been given permission to explore international options, I wonder where they'll end up

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by VinceWLB on Fri 07 Jul 2017, 11:38 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Cheetahs and Kings are officially out of Super Rugby next year (Cheetahs "amicably agreed" a termination of their participation agreement through to 2020 with the SARU)

Good.

Hope confirmation of extension gets announced soon to save those teams and pro rugby in SA.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by profitius on Fri 07 Jul 2017, 1:58 pm

https://www.alloutrugby.com/cheetahs-kings-thrilled-exit-super-rugby/

Cheetahs, Kings thrilled to exit Super Rugby
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 07 Jul 2017, 2:09 pm

profitius wrote:https://www.alloutrugby.com/cheetahs-kings-thrilled-exit-super-rugby/

Cheetahs, Kings thrilled to exit Super Rugby

More cash for them (and for the other 4 teams who get a bigger slide of Super Rugby pie), which will help on the squad strength front (SA still need to maintain 6 squads so the extra money will probably go on luring players home/keeping them). The trade off for SARU is that the 4 remaining Super sides won't necessarily be able to strengthen by picking off Cheetahs/Kings talent

An added bonus for the Cheetahs & Kings is that they'll probably not lose as often. Propping up the foot of the Super Rugby table must get soul destroying. Ditto getting humped by any Kiwi sides that come to town.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri 07 Jul 2017, 3:37 pm

Cheetahs were always more of a mid table team were they not?

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