Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 12:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

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Post by IanBru on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Scratch that, well Visser anyway, he's Dutch, I thought he was a Saffa for a minute then. Laugh
Laugh Yeah, I didn't include Dozer Denton as he wasn't in the autumn squad, along with Nel. You have to stop somewhere, or I'd still have Nathan Hines in the list!
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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:23 pm

It does highlight though how the richer countries really take advantage at times.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Hogg will be a turnstile against the New Zealand backs, I do not think we will be attacking much, so Hoggs supposedly unmatchable lightning attacking play will be far less affective, what we need is somebody who can and will tackle as the last line of defence, and for me Liam Williams is miles ahead of anybody in his field when it come to that part of a fullbacks game.

Also, Liam Williams was the only player the All Blacks said they worried about on the last tour down there, so that must hold some credence.

Nah, they were just being rude about the rest of the Welsh squad.....

If it's just about kicking and tackling, then Mike Brown would be your best option.

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Post by True Raven on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:31 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Hogg will be a turnstile against the New Zealand backs, I do not think we will be attacking much, so Hoggs supposedly unmatchable lightning attacking play will be far less affective, what we need is somebody who can and will tackle as the last line of defence, and for me Liam Williams is miles ahead of anybody in his field when it come to that part of a fullbacks game.

Also, Liam Williams was the only player the All Blacks said they worried about on the last tour down there, so that must hold some credence.

Nah, they were just being rude about the rest of the Welsh squad.....

If it's just about kicking and tackling, then Mike Brown would be your best option.

Really? The guy is the slowest full back ive seen, the all blacks would run around him.

Hogg is easily my 15 with Watson and L Williams on the wings

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:39 pm

I have to admit I don't know why so many people have Anthony Watson nailed on as a starter in the Tests.

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:43 pm

One player who has been really impressing me as of late is Tommy Seymour, he has that spark about him. But FFS he is not even British, but at least he has a Scottish mother, even though he played age grade for Ireland.

So for me if we are going to have a wildcard, and people want to shoehorn a Scottish player in, I would much prefer him over Hogg.

PS, after having this conversation with guns, are any of the Scottish squad, well, Scottish ?

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:46 pm

Yeah he is really good. Didnt realise he played for Ireland. Wouldnt be disapointed if he was a Lions pick.

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Post by True Raven on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:One player who has been really impressing me as of late is Tommy Seymour, he has that spark about him. But FFS he is not even British, but at least he has a Scottish mother, even though he played age grade for Ireland.

So for me if we are going to have a wildcard, and people want to shoehorn a Scottish player in, I would much prefer him over Hogg.

PS, after having this conversation with guns, are any of the Scottish squad, well, Scottish ?

I dont think anybody from Britain or Ireland could mock Scotland for using the system especially us Welsh as we used to play someone who wasn't even qualified for Wales!!! Or was it because it happened pre Gatland era, its all simply forgot about now

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:51 pm

Who was that?

At a guess Shane Howarth or Brent Cockbain?

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Post by True Raven on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:56 pm

Yeah Shane Howarth, Brett Sinkinson and Colin Charvis

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:57 pm

I thought Howarth and Charvis were okay?

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Post by True Raven on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 1:00 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I thought Howarth and Charvis were okay?

I think (but dont quote me on it!) that Charvis was first capped whilst ineligible but when it all came out, he had qualified on residency.

Howarth I thought was ineligible as he had no qualification

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 1:00 pm

By way of comparison Australia probably have the most overseas born players in world rugby at the moment:

Tolu Latu Tonga
Stephen moore         Saudi Arabia (Irish parents)
David Pocock         Zimbabwe
Lopeti Timani         Tonga
Will Genia                 Papua New Guinea
Quade Santini Cooper New zealand
Kyle Godwin         Zimbabwe
Tevita Kuridrani         Fiji
Dane Haylett-Petty South Africa
Sefanaia Naivalu         Fiji
Henry Speight         Fiji

Some probably grew up in Australia but it does look a bit like a Barbarians side.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 1:05 pm

Aparently Howarth was banned from playing for Wales when it was revealed that his granny wasnt born there.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 1:12 pm

True Raven wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Hogg will be a turnstile against the New Zealand backs, I do not think we will be attacking much, so Hoggs supposedly unmatchable lightning attacking play will be far less affective, what we need is somebody who can and will tackle as the last line of defence, and for me Liam Williams is miles ahead of anybody in his field when it come to that part of a fullbacks game.

Also, Liam Williams was the only player the All Blacks said they worried about on the last tour down there, so that must hold some credence.

Nah, they were just being rude about the rest of the Welsh squad.....

If it's just about kicking and tackling, then Mike Brown would be your best option.

Really?  The guy is the slowest full back ive seen, the all blacks would run around him.

Hogg is easily my 15 with Watson and L Williams on the wings

I wouldn't pick Brown either. LD reduced the fullback role to that of last line of defence, and on that basis I think Brown would be a good candidate. Of course playing fullback is about much more than that, but when responding to someone with over-simplistic views, it sometimes helps to dumb down a bit.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 1:13 pm

LordDowlais wrote:One player who has been really impressing me as of late is Tommy Seymour, he has that spark about him. But FFS he is not even British, but at least he has a Scottish mother, even though he played age grade for Ireland.

Some of the very finest Lions haven't been British.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 1:19 pm

Willie John McBride, Brian O'Driscoll, Paul O'Connell, Fergus Slattery, Mike Gibson etc.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 1:24 pm

Indeed.

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Post by IanBru on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 3:42 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:One player who has been really impressing me as of late is Tommy Seymour, he has that spark about him. But FFS he is not even British, but at least he has a Scottish mother, even though he played age grade for Ireland.

Some of the very finest Lions haven't been British.
clap

In any case, how exactly is LD defining 'not British'? Are we including Sir Mo Farah and Eric Liddell in that? What about Boris Johnson?
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Post by cascough on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:01 pm

TJ wrote:
Sin é wrote:I don't understand why everyone has Stuart Hogg as a starter at fullback on the Lions. On form over the last 6 months, I'd have both Liam Williams and Simon Zebo ahead of him.

Usually trying to shoehorn a scot in the side.

+1

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:02 pm

IanBru wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:One player who has been really impressing me as of late is Tommy Seymour, he has that spark about him. But FFS he is not even British, but at least he has a Scottish mother, even though he played age grade for Ireland.

Some of the very finest Lions haven't been British.
clap

In any case, how exactly is LD defining 'not British'? Are we including Sir Mo Farah and Eric Liddell in that? What about Boris Johnson?

I dread to think!

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:06 pm

cascough wrote:
TJ wrote:
Sin é wrote:I don't understand why everyone has Stuart Hogg as a starter at fullback on the Lions. On form over the last 6 months, I'd have both Liam Williams and Simon Zebo ahead of him.

Usually trying to shoehorn a scot in the side.

+1

Selecting Maitland on the last tour was shoehorning a Scot in. Picking Hogg this time around would well justified IMO.

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:09 pm

True Raven wrote:I dont think anybody from Britain or Ireland could mock Scotland for using the system especially us Welsh as we used to play someone who wasn't even qualified for Wales!!! Or was it because it happened pre Gatland era, its all simply forgot about now

Graham Henry came up here and introduced us to this technique. It was invented in New Zealand where they cherry pick all the best Fijians, Samoans and Tongans. It was called granny gate if I remember correctly. Very Happy

It was at a time when all our best players were playing rugby league in the late 90's. Dark, dark times they were. Sad

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:19 pm

Granny gate was when Wales broke the rules not played to them.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:38 pm

It doesn't really matter who is picked because the coaches aren't good enough.

Borthwick is the best of the bunch but he's still developing.

It's not just about picking the best players, it's about the best strategy.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:46 pm

beshocked wrote:It doesn't really matter who is picked because the coaches aren't good enough.

Borthwick is the best of the bunch but he's still developing.

It's not just about picking the best players, it's about the best strategy.
Yeah, need more coaches with a Sarries connection or we wont win.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:51 pm

Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:It doesn't really matter who is picked because the coaches aren't good enough.

Borthwick is the best of the bunch but he's still developing.

It's not just about picking the best players, it's about the best strategy.
Yeah, need more coaches with a Sarries connection or we wont win.

I don't particularly like Farrell Sr - think he's overrated. Of course that doesn't fit with your opinion of me.

Just need better coaches to stand a chance.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 5:20 pm

It's of course Andy that has actually been part of a team that has beaten the ABs though.

So maybe not the best coach on the planet but good enough to say 'I belong' in a team that wants to try beating the ABs?  Yes?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 5:32 pm

He's beaten them twice.

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Post by TJ on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 5:36 pm

My issue is the sort of team and tactics I think are best to beat the all blacks are opposite to those gatland has employed his entire career

Because of this I am happy for no scots to go as the poissibles play ( mainly) for Glasgow where they are used to very different tactics and it took Hogg nearly a season to recover his confidence and form after the last tour.

I think we are beginning to see a shift in the NH towards guile and away from power - see leinster and glasgow in the euro cup - albeit the best team seems to be sarries who are not moving this way. the ABs have often been smaller than other international teams but more skillfuyl and quicker. We will not beat the ABs with a power game - it will have to be with pace and guile

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Post by beshocked on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 5:39 pm

Don't remember Andy Farrell beating the ABs, I thought his international career was disappointing.

He was the failure in the centres/RL convert 8 years before Sam Burgess.

If you mean as a coach - I don't think you can say that Farrell was the mastermind pulling the strings.

TJ disagree. NZ are balanced. Also you need resilience.

Glasgow are hardly the blue print when they are losing at home.

You need a mix of pace,power,guile and good basics.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 5:43 pm

I think we can say he contributed surely?

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Post by beshocked on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 5:46 pm

Yes you can say he contributed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 6:01 pm

Both him and Lancaster seem to be flourishing again. Good to see. Hopefully he adds another three tests to his tally soon!

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Post by CraigS1874 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 6:05 pm

LondonTiger wrote:A team that should be comfortable in SH conditions:

Mako, Hartley, WP Nel, Ball, Symons (admit I am struggling in second row), BillyV, Hardy, Faletau, Simpson, Anscombe, Rokudugani, Tuilagi, Payne, Solomona, Maitland

My question to you 606v2 is......hypothetically if Denny solomona carries on his form for sale and becomes English qualified during the 6 nations could he then be picked for the Lions despite never playing for England before going back and playing for Samoa following the Lions tour?

And Has something like this happened before

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 6:11 pm

Could happen. Or NZ. Don't think it's happened before.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 6:15 pm

TJ wrote:My issue is the sort of team and tactics I think are best to beat the all blacks are opposite to those gatland has employed his entire career

Because of this I am happy for no scots to go as the poissibles play ( mainly) for Glasgow where they are used to very different tactics and it took Hogg nearly a season to recover his confidence and form after the last tour.

I think we are beginning to see a shift in the NH towards guile and away from power - see leinster and glasgow in the euro cup - albeit the best team seems to be sarries who are not moving this way.  the ABs have often been smaller than other international teams but more skillfuyl and quicker.  We will not beat the ABs with a power game - it will have to be with pace and guile

That final Lions game against Australia was brimming with pace, guile and power.  New Zealand is a different kettle of fish to be sure but I keep saying that too often people want to believe that Gatland only coaches one kind of game.  It's perfectly evidential that he can coach a slicker game too if he has the personnel to effect it.

That Australian tour was for me a lot of smoke-screening (needlessly so in my opinion) to lure Australia into thinking there was only one way the Lions would play.  I said then that the Lions, with the players they had, could have chewed up Australia in all three games but something cautious in Gatland made him uncertain and therefore forced him to keep the best till last.  He was too cautious.  He believed he had the fire power but that caution and his love of an ambush kept it in until the end.

I think there is certainly something in Gatland's personality that loves drama and 'stories' and he'll be a fool if he tries to fool New Zealand with any rope-a-dope shenanigans in the first two tests.  He has the players at his disposal now, and they've been trained back at their own clubs/provinces/regions now and at their own National levels to give him a very good shot at winning the series.  But this time it must be honest pace, power and guile from first moments of the first test to last seconds of the third.  If his 'guile' is to risk losing one of the tests to pretend there is a weakness for the ABs to prey on, then he'll pay the price of NZ not falling for it.

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Post by TJ on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 6:28 pm

sorry secret fly but it really wasn't at all. compared to previous Gatland teams maybe but compared to the ABs - slow and predictable. We do have the players as we did then to play a game of pace and guile but Gatland didn't pick them

If we want to play pace and guile then Farell has no place in the team nor do most of the NH backrows

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 6:39 pm

You don't watch much of Farrell. He's been playing exceedingly well for a good while and pulled Saracens back into at the weekend. Granted you have great options with Sexton and Ford pushing but Farrell can play a v good attacking game.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 6:55 pm

It was a game Australia couldn't live with TJ.  Australia weren't exactly a great side then but still that last game was playable for the three tests had Gatland the courage to believe in what he had.  You can only beat the bejaysus out of the side you meet and they did. Too late though. Leaving it for the final game.

The debate can go on on the players to effect a proper plan, but the ABs are the ABs and there is no comparisons to be made on the efforts needed to beat them in two as distinct from beating Australia in two.  I'm saying the players do exist to give the ABs a real run for their money but yes, that will have to be the objective of Gatland - guile, pace and a readiness to battle physically for the 240 minutes of test time and choosing the right players to do it.  No room for overly rehearsed caution though.  Caution only gets you beaten by the ABs.

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Post by True Raven on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:10 pm

TJ wrote:My issue is the sort of team and tactics I think are best to beat the all blacks are opposite to those gatland has employed his entire career

Because of this I am happy for no scots to go as the poissibles play ( mainly) for Glasgow where they are used to very different tactics and it took Hogg nearly a season to recover his confidence and form after the last tour.

I think we are beginning to see a shift in the NH towards guile and away from power - see leinster and glasgow in the euro cup - albeit the best team seems to be sarries who are not moving this way.  the ABs have often been smaller than other international teams but more skillfuyl and quicker.  We will not beat the ABs with a power game - it will have to be with pace and guile

Lol come on be serious. It took Hogg a year to get over being part of a winning lions series?? I know Scotland don't win much but a year to get over it?

I'm only kidding but Hogg never went as a serious contender for the 15 shirt after halfpenny won player of the six nations so he couldn't have been that shocked he wasn't picked or was he annoyed that he had to play 10 because there's many players who would have loved to have gone on tour

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Post by TJ on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:23 pm

Something happened to Hogg on that tour. Dunno what but it took him a long time to recover form.

As an example of the sort of thing I mean - who do we play at 7? Personally I would go for a guy like Watson - an old school 7 who is seriously fast but at 6' and 16 stone most folk think him too small. He is however the same size as McCaw and his speed gets him to the breakdown first and he can keep up with the backs if they break free. Its the sort of high risk option I would like to see.

7 1/2 - I have seen Farell a bit - he is slow and predictable and is poor at releasing the backs outside of him. What he does is very good - but its what he doesn't do that worries me. He seems unable to create time and space outside of him

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:24 pm

You missed the game at the weekend.

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Post by TJ on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:27 pm

Worth watching?  I'll have a look.  As I say what he does is good but its what he can't do that worries me.  Was he playing at 12 or 10?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:38 pm

He plays 10 for Saracens and is generally great. I'm in the minority of thinking he's a mediocre 12. Watch the match, it's the sort of thing he does often.

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Post by TJ on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:42 pm

His stats were OK but he didn't see much of the ball considering he was playing 10 - I'll watch the game later. Ta 7 1/2

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Post by TJ on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 10:06 pm

7 1/2 - I watched the game.  I saw nothing to think Farrell should be considered for the lions.  Kicking out of hand - very indifferent.  Missed two off the tee.  Not one single "trick" to put a player in space all game - just the conventional pass.  Not one chip over the line, runaround or dummy.  3 nice conventional passes out of the 19 he made - the rest nothing any club player would do with his eyes shut.  sorry but on that showing I understand why jones does not want him at 10.  an adequate club ten only.  One of the nice passes was for the try at the end tho

after that performance I downrate Sarries - they did not look like the euro cup champions playing a mid placed pro 12 side

As an aside the ref was awful.  any sarries players cited?  should have been red not yellow for the slap to the face and shuld have been two more sarries yellows.  Mind you he missed two Scarlet's knock ons.

watch the two Glasgow / Racing games to see what a skillfull 10 can do in terms of putting players into space. Russell was magnificent in those two games ( not lions material either - he was a steaming pile of mince the next week). He stood flat compared to Farrells standing deep. He had every trick in the book to create space dummies, chips, offloads and he was on the ball 3 times as much. farrell stands so deep he deprives the players outside of him of time and space

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Post by Cyril on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 11:18 pm

Russell is massively overrated. Possibly the most overrated player in the NH (maybe after Gray).

Farrell is a way better at fly half and is very good at 12 too.

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Post by True Raven on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 11:36 pm

Most overrated fly half award has George Fords name all over it.


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Post by Exiledinborders on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 11:37 pm

TJ wrote:an adequate club ten only.
Laugh

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