Pakistan in NZ, then Aus

Really looking forward to these two tours this winter - starting tonight, Pakistan play New Zealand then head over to Australia . Intrigued to see how they follow up their exploits in England this summer

Really fancy them to do well - and more Misbah = happy Olly

Aus must be terrified right now. Maybe Pakistans batters wont be quite so comfortable on lightening quick pitches but they have quality all over.

With Pakistan touring you can't help but feel that the phrase "Australia can't buy a victory" is about to be disproved!

Well looks like New Zealand may have invested heavily in one. They look like take a substantial first innings lead.

An new all round superstar seems to have been unearthered. 6 wickets on debut isnt too shabby for a number 6 bat.

Grandhomme picked a 6-fer on debut....conditions suited his pitched up swing....NZ has a choice of allroundeers betwen Corey Anderson, Neesham and this guy....

Indian Origin Raval opened and negotiated the conditions and Pak bowling well....and they are playing Todd Astle the leg spinner ahead of Santner who I thought was their best spinner in India

KP - Santner is injured for the series so hasn't been dropped

Was amusing to read a lot of disparaging comments (from NZ fans ) about Grandhomme before the game: have changed quite rapidly

Barring two days of rain Pakistan are going to lose heavily. And before that shock loss to West Indies they had a fair claim to being the form team in the world at present ...

Guess they remain typically Pakistan : brilliant one day ; rubbish the next.

On a green seamer they will always be vulnerable, always the way

alfie wrote:Was amusing to read a lot of disparaging comments (from NZ fans ) about Grandhomme before the game: have changed quite rapidly

Barring two days of rain Pakistan are going to lose heavily.  And before that shock loss to West Indies they had a fair claim to being the form team in the world at present ...

Guess they remain typically Pakistan : brilliant one day ; rubbish the next.

If they can somehow get a lead of 150 they have a chance.....NZ batting line up isnt strong

NZ cruise home...

Pakistan was never likely to recover from that first innings. This isn't the UAE.

Day 4 completed in the 2nd test. Pakistan need 368 more on day 5 to win and avoid their first series loss to NZ since Wasim Akram's debut series in 1985 (back when NZ had Hadlee & Crowe)

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Day 4 completed in the 2nd test. Pakistan need 368 more on day 5 to win and avoid their first series loss to NZ since Wasim Akram's debut series in 1985 (back when NZ had Hadlee & Crowe)

Good luck with that. Reckon NZ two-nil coming up shortly... Which will be a welcome return to winning ways for the home side.

Wonder how this will affect Pakistan's morale going on to Australia ? With their new found resilience under Misbah I was thinking they might challenge this time ; but I am not so sure now...

Yeah its quite a come down form Pakistan and a surprise, they were looking very strong. The hope is that they will be more " up" for the series in Aus, and better acclimatised. They do seem to blow a bit hot and cold at times, and maybe the sheer volume of time on the road is taking its toll.

In the end a good win for NZ . Wasn't able to follow early today ; but it seems Pakistan were cruising a one point.
Soon as I started checking in , the collapse was on...and it didn't half come with a rush at the end !

NZ will be delighted . Found a new player with a great moustache too

Pakistan need to regroup. Australia isn't usually a happy place for them.

Australia in total control after day one.  Smith enjoying himself extending his "run machine" streak from the ODIs ; Handscomb must think this Test Cricket is an easy game (at least with a pink ball) ; and young Renshaw impressing again - really does look like he's settled the opening bat argument - though I guess he will come under more pressure now he's known and rival teams will be doing their homework on him.

Glad Amir's injury didn't prove as bad as it originally looked. But what I saw of the Pakistan bowling was generally disappointing ...I have a feeling the hopes they brought with them are going to go the way of previous Pakistan tours of Australia.
They bounced back well from a defeat in England so I won't write them off yet. But I'll be surprised if they last four days in this one and it won't be easy to come back from that. Even with their much more resilient record under Misbah. Hope I'm wrong as I'd like to see a good hard fought series.

It does make me wonder about Pakistan in england ...have they suddenly just got that much worse or were England just a lot worse than we thought?
Probably a bit of both.

Any idea why they bowled so much spin and largely ignored Wahab?

Gooseberry wrote:It does make me wonder about Pakistan in england ...have they suddenly just got that much worse or were England just a lot worse than we thought?
Probably a bit of both.

Any idea why they bowled so much spin and largely ignored Wahab?

has it got to do the on camera fight that Yassir and Wahab broke into yesterday 

Re: Pak...they take time to warm up...and are a blow hot , blow cold side......how they perform in this test is not in any way an indicator of how they will in the next test.....
Eng series is distant history on the time-scale on which Pak side's performance fluctuates

Good fight back with ball from Pakistan today (somewhat marred by the last wicket stand) ; credit to Wahab , Amir and the generally unlucky Yasir.
But now they're batting at a less than ideal time of day - and with three out already there is a heap of pressure on Misbah and Sami.

Fantastic finish to this one - the Aussies were looking decidedly nervous on day 5

Blimey just caught up on that one. Just goes to show how good pAkistan are when they actually put the effort in. Getting back into taht was just incredible if ultimately still a failure.

Nic Maddison... 2 tests, 5 runs, no wickets, no catches. Another in the long line of Australian all round test greats in the making.

Pakistan safely through the first half hour after winning the toss...

Bit of swing but nothing untoward off the pitch ; looks like a good toss to win. Bird into the attack pretty early as Starc has been a bit astray with his line.

14/- after seven. Australia may come to regret not taking the extra bowler into the XI.

Lyon with the break with his third ball ! Probably not the way they'd have expected to take the first wicket on Boxing Day.
Ball certainly bounced and ballooned off the glove...the end for Sami.

Good bowling change

Slow progress after lunch...

Though Younus just got going that last Bird over. Losing a wicket last ball before lunch set them back a bit ; but they look to be intent on getting a solid platform here. Guess they aren't too bothered about the scoring rate yet ; perhaps hoping to exploit Australia's lack of a fifth bowler later on ?

Does look a good batting surface. Think Lyon might be bowling a bit in the second half of the day. 89/2 off thirty six...

Over rate still glacial...just forty in half a day. Scoring not much quicker.
105/2. Azhar has been very patient but doing a good job for his team. Younus not exactly fluent but he's still there...

Hazelwood best of the bowlers.

...but it is the Bird who gets the break ! Bowls Younus to end a scratchy innings and cut that partnership off at 51.

At 111/3 Pakistan is in danger of wasting the early watchfulness without ever cashing in - the peril of possibly overdoing caution at the expense of scoring. They really need the skipper to play an innings now.

Aussies will be happy to have once again grabbed a wicket just when it appeared the batsmen were looking settled. That was good bowling from Bird

Wet (early ) finish to the day at 142/4.

Pakistan probably better to get off the field given it was dark etc before the rain ...but after that slow early batting they'd have been hoping to score some runs against tired bowling in the last session - and they've missed out on that.
Fancy they'll struggle to make this into a big total but you never know - pitch might suit Yasir later on. Might go tomorrow.

Clearly not a lot of interest in this one

Indeed the weather has messed it around to the point where a result is now looking a little unlikely.  Even this morning rain prevented them starting early.
Pakistan ( oddly )haven't really gone after the bowling yet. In the absence of Craig's road map I was wondering what they'd want to get to ; and concluded perhaps 380 would satisfy them - after which they'd hope to take a couple of Australian wickets early and ideally work through the rest of the batting during the two later sessions...If they could hold a lead of 180 with two days to go they'd fancy their chances.
Australia would have hoped to have them out for 350 (but that's gone) and then bat all day for 240-260/3.  As it stands I suspect they'll be happy enough to bat long and safely (between showers ) and preserve the one-nil lead...

Pakistan hitting out now at 359/7. As they should . Bowling conditions look good for Amir and his mates right now...

Waste of time posting. . . Off for rain again

I do think the umpires have been over sensitive to the weather at times ; am sure they'd have played through some of these very light showers in the past. Wouldn't have saved the bulk of the lost time , to be fair , but would have pleased the generally patient crowds...

Entertaining swashbuckling innings from Sohail as he monsters the unfortunate Lyon...

400 up and I suppose they figure runs are coming so easily now they may as well get a few more and run the Aussies around a bit longer.

Fifty for Sohail

Lunch at 433/7 with Sohail and Azhar totally dominant. Apparently they'll continue the slaughter for a while and hope scoreboard pressure does the job for them...but I suspect the time lost in this match has made the draw a huge favorite already.

I might pop back some time and see if anyone else is watching

David Warner is good huh

He's good in favourable conditions but bang average elsewhere, he's scored a grand total of two international centuries outside of Australia and South Africa. If the ball does anything at all he's lost.

Think Warner struggles far more against the spinning ball than the seaming ball to be honest. Can't really remove his centuries in SA and then make the point he can't do a anything against a moving ball! He was fabulous that series against a very good attack.

Warner has no significant weakness to spin either.....he is just a very good batsman....worth his average of ~49......

he did not score BIG runs in India but he did well vs Pak in UAE.....and those minefield pitches in Lanka earlier this year  can be discounted....

so India would be the only  blemish on his record....but like Sehwag and Hayden who were cut in same mould as him  .....his career will decline rapidly ...such hand/ eye coordination player drop fast from super to nothin when their reflexes slow down even a wee bit

JDizzle wrote:Think Warner struggles far more against the spinning ball than the seaming ball to be honest. Can't really remove his centuries in SA and then make the point he can't do a anything against a moving ball! He was fabulous that series against a very good attack.

I don't think that SA pitches are sufficiently different to Aussie ones to make it particularly relevant, I stand by my point that like Khawaja, Voges and Smith that the Aussie batting line up is next to useless when there's any movement. It's the same for most top batsmen but at least sets Kohli and Williamson apart from even Root, their ability to score in most conditions.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Think Warner struggles far more against the spinning ball than the seaming ball to be honest. Can't really remove his centuries in SA and then make the point he can't do a anything against a moving ball! He was fabulous that series against a very good attack.

I don't think that SA pitches are sufficiently different to Aussie ones to make it particularly relevant, I stand by my point that like Khawaja, Voges and Smith that the Aussie batting line up is next to useless when there's any movement. It's the same for most top batsmen but at least sets Kohli and Williamson apart from even Root, their ability to score in most conditions.

Every batsmen, however good/great have teams/countries they struggle in.

As brilliant as King Kohli is, he was dreadful in England. Yes he scored runs everywhere else but he was clueless against the Duke nut.

Ricky Ponting general consensus top 10 batsmen of all time had a dreadful record in India, yet anywhere rise in the subcontinent he scored by the bucket full.

Smith is a darn sight better than Voges and Khawaja of that there's no doubt. IIRC Khawaja collection of Test hundreds have only been scored in Australia and New Zealand. And for someone who's Asian I don't think he's the foggiest at how to play spin!

Smith's record shows he's scored runs everywhere and the two countries he hadn't scored a century he has scored 90s.

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Think Warner struggles far more against the spinning ball than the seaming ball to be honest. Can't really remove his centuries in SA and then make the point he can't do a anything against a moving ball! He was fabulous that series against a very good attack.

I don't think that SA pitches are sufficiently different to Aussie ones to make it particularly relevant, I stand by my point that like Khawaja, Voges and Smith that the Aussie batting line up is next to useless when there's any movement. It's the same for most top batsmen but at least sets Kohli and Williamson apart from even Root, their ability to score in most conditions.

Every batsmen, however good/great have teams/countries they struggle in.

As brilliant as King Kohli is, he was dreadful in England. Yes he scored runs everywhere else but he was clueless against the Duke nut.

Ricky Ponting general consensus top 10 batsmen of all time had a dreadful record in India, yet anywhere rise in the subcontinent he scored by the bucket full.

Smith is a darn sight better than Voges and Khawaja of that there's no doubt. IIRC Khawaja collection of Test hundreds have only been scored in Australia and New Zealand. And for someone who's Asian I don't think he's the foggiest at how to play spin!

Smith's record shows he's scored runs everywhere and the two countries he hadn't scored a century he has scored 90s.

Smith's record shows he's a flat track bully who goes missing as soon as the ball does anything, why are cricket fans unable to look beyond statistics?

And Pakistan becomes yet another side to score 400 runs in first inning and lose.
Happened a couple of times in the history....and then 3 times this month

Must admit I'd given this up as a bore draw , and went back in to work today...

But this is a reminder that one should never underestimate the capacity of Pakistan to seize a loss from virtually any position

They seem to do this particularly well in Australia. In years gone by , some folk used to hint darkly at skulduggery ...but the truth is , it is just Pakistan. And despite the fight back in Brisbane , the evidence of this game and the NZ tour is that the wheels have come off.

Might be a good time to undertake a tour of UAE ? Wonder who is doing so next...

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Think Warner struggles far more against the spinning ball than the seaming ball to be honest. Can't really remove his centuries in SA and then make the point he can't do a anything against a moving ball! He was fabulous that series against a very good attack.

I don't think that SA pitches are sufficiently different to Aussie ones to make it particularly relevant, I stand by my point that like Khawaja, Voges and Smith that the Aussie batting line up is next to useless when there's any movement. It's the same for most top batsmen but at least sets Kohli and Williamson apart from even Root, their ability to score in most conditions.

Every batsmen, however good/great have teams/countries they struggle in.

As brilliant as King Kohli is, he was dreadful in England. Yes he scored runs everywhere else but he was clueless against the Duke nut.

Ricky Ponting general consensus top 10 batsmen of all time had a dreadful record in India, yet anywhere rise in the subcontinent he scored by the bucket full.

Smith is a darn sight better than Voges and Khawaja of that there's no doubt. IIRC Khawaja collection of Test hundreds have only been scored in Australia and New Zealand. And for someone who's Asian I don't think he's the foggiest at how to play spin!

Smith's record shows he's scored runs everywhere and the two countries he hadn't scored a century he has scored 90s.

Smith's record shows he's a flat track bully who goes missing as soon as the ball does anything, why are cricket fans unable to look beyond statistics?

Surely his record is statistics?

Its not unreasonable to compare his record against others to make a determination of whther it shows hes more of ones thing that others to the point where its worth mentioing as a thing, is it?

His record shows hes scored a dickload of runs. To write that off because they were " easy runs" really has to make you question the sort of batsmen who cant score them on flat pitches in India when the ball isnt doing much (England)

Its not unfair to point out his runs have mostly come in a couple of countries. Its also not ungfair to say that that doesnt make him unique. People use dto say this stuff about Tendulkar. Theres endless hours been spent (mostly by Indians) writting up theories on why Bradman was actually rubbish.

It is unfair to write him off as a player and ignore what he has acheived on the basis of what he hasnt.

Misbah is now talking of reitrement. That would be a great shame oif not a great surprise, and you wonder how much longer Younis Khan will keep going too. Both have done well to keep going as long as they have....even if they maybe should have had more caps in that time.
They both gave England a rough ride but have struggled for their best for for some time outside that. All the same you do wonder about the stability of the side given their propensity to self implode if they did lose the captain who turned them back into a team, as well as the whole it would leave in their batting.

Gooseberry wrote:
Surely his record is statistics?

Its not unreasonable to compare his record against others to make a determination of whther it shows hes more of ones thing that others to the point where its worth mentioing as a thing, is it?

His record shows hes scored a dickload of runs. To write that off because they were " easy runs" really has to make you question the sort of  batsmen who cant score them on flat pitches in India when the ball isnt doing much (England)

Its not unfair to point out his runs have mostly come in a couple of countries. Its also not ungfair to say that that doesnt make him unique. People use dto say this stuff about Tendulkar. Theres endless hours been spent (mostly by Indians) writting up theories on why Bradman was actually rubbish.

It is unfair to write him off as a player and ignore what he has acheived on the basis of what he hasnt.

Tendulkar has a positive away/home split which makes him fairly unique so a pretty example to use and in itself highlights the difference between being a good flat track bully and great. Lets not make out that Smith is anything more than he is, he's a technically deficient batsmen who's thriving in benign conditions against possibly the the poorest bowling attacks in living memory. He looks like a club player as soon as the ball swings or spins.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:
Surely his record is statistics?

Its not unreasonable to compare his record against others to make a determination of whther it shows hes more of ones thing that others to the point where its worth mentioing as a thing, is it?

His record shows hes scored a dickload of runs. To write that off because they were " easy runs" really has to make you question the sort of  batsmen who cant score them on flat pitches in India when the ball isnt doing much (England)

Its not unfair to point out his runs have mostly come in a couple of countries. Its also not ungfair to say that that doesnt make him unique. People use dto say this stuff about Tendulkar. Theres endless hours been spent (mostly by Indians) writting up theories on why Bradman was actually rubbish.

It is unfair to write him off as a player and ignore what he has acheived on the basis of what he hasnt.

Tendulkar has a positive away/home split which makes him fairly unique so a pretty example to use and in itself highlights the difference between being a good flat track bully and great. Lets not make out that Smith is anything more than he is, he's a technically deficient batsmen who's thriving in benign conditions against possibly the the poorest bowling attacks in living memory. He looks like a club player as soon as the ball swings or spins.

Im glad you bought up Tendulkars statitics...it didnt stop people calling him a flat track bully. That was my point.

Bowling attacks and conditions that noone else can score as many against, despite his defiences. Its an odd record really isnt it.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:
Surely his record is statistics?

Its not unreasonable to compare his record against others to make a determination of whther it shows hes more of ones thing that others to the point where its worth mentioing as a thing, is it?

His record shows hes scored a dickload of runs. To write that off because they were " easy runs" really has to make you question the sort of  batsmen who cant score them on flat pitches in India when the ball isnt doing much (England)

Its not unfair to point out his runs have mostly come in a couple of countries. Its also not ungfair to say that that doesnt make him unique. People use dto say this stuff about Tendulkar. Theres endless hours been spent (mostly by Indians) writting up theories on why Bradman was actually rubbish.

It is unfair to write him off as a player and ignore what he has acheived on the basis of what he hasnt.

Tendulkar has a positive away/home split which makes him fairly unique so a pretty example to use and in itself highlights the difference between being a good flat track bully and great. Lets not make out that Smith is anything more than he is, he's a technically deficient batsmen who's thriving in benign conditions against possibly the the poorest bowling attacks in living memory. He looks like a club player as soon as the ball swings or spins.

I'm not sure where you're going with this TBH. Smith record in the subcontinent is pretty decent averages around 40, not be sniffed at considering some of the pitches the Asian sides roll out.

As for technical ability, I always find technique is a little overrated in the modern crash/bash era of cricket. Going back 10-15 years half the current players wouldn't have lasted to long. But these days it's about how many you get as quickly as possible.

Again i'm not even overly bothered by averages, i'd wager he has a decent average in England but is inept the moment the ball swings or Broad/Anderson are on form, in benign conditions he scores runs. Statistics are too simplistic, they tell us Bradman is the greatest ever but the only opposition of note he faced was England.

A lack of technique is the exact reason why so few teams can win overseas, they can't adapt to different conditions, cricket is at an all time low.

Compare the bowlers that Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Waugh, Dravid, Kallis amassed their runs against to what's around today; Smith has a higher average than all them of which puts into context the over reliance of numbers.

Doubt whether Smith's average will be 60 at the end of his career, although clearly he's a fine player.
  Averages, as those who have posted above have suggested, are tricky things. If you are a number three or number four batsman in a good team you're more likely than not to be coming in at 100-1 or even 200-2. Compare that with a 3 or 4 in a poor side, often having to face a rampant bowling attack with one or two wickets down for not very many.
  Lara for example made stacks of runs in the last part of his career in a poor Windies side. Waugh, practically throughout, was in a strong Aussie team. Just look at how few runs he made when Aus were comparatively weak at the start of his time in Tests.
  Not sure you should read too much about the runs batsmen make at home or on good wickets. After all, few seem to distinguish in football between the number of goals that strikers get in home matches compared with away ones.

Fred...Smith has played in a number of teams that have been described as the worst ever Australian ones. Hes scored the super majority of his runs in rhe top 4. His first two centuries came with the side in a bit of trouble, the first away against Anderson Broad and Swann in their prime.
So you could say he doesnt fit into that soft runs category.

The home advantage thing is very differnet in soccer where teams tactical approach changes between home and away fixtures, as well as the crowd advantage. With cricket its about the ground and weather conditions requiring fundamentaly different techniques and decision making processes to score runs. I really dont think its va valid paralell, and frankly a bit ridiculous to say home games dont count.
As it ot to say that weight of runs scored dont count in assessing how effective a batsman is overall. Thats what hes in the side to do. And yes he may be a first innings home track specialist, but is so far ahead of anyone in world cricket in what he does its absolutely churlish to write him off as no good and rubbish.
Ian Bell had a beautiful cover drive, I know who Id rather have in my team. Despite Smiths limitations hes still got a better record than Bell in almost all conditions ...despite Bell playing in better teams and not having to face Anderson on English pitches. Smith hasnt cashed in against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, instead played most of his cricket against the better test sides.

Smith scores runs. We say his average wont stay above 60 yet it has continued to rise through his career after a pretty poor start. Hes been avergaing well above that in the last few years so if he continues this form

Call him a limited player...but not a poor one. At some point you have to accept that hes found a way of scoring huge numbers of runs on pitches where those more technicaly gifted cant. And even against the moving ball he still matches most test batsmen.

Get over it.

G'berry. Yes, of course I could be wrong about Smith not averaging 60 at the end of his career. His record so far has been exceptional.
I was perhaps clumsy in my comparison with soccer strikers. What I should have said is that no one goes on about how many of Aguero/Kane/Costa goals are scored in home matches compared with away ones. All they say is that the striker now has x number of goals this season. Also if a hat-trick is scored against, say, the division's bottom table, there is no talk of "flat-track bully" as there sometimes is in cricket.

2 pretty one sided new-year test matches being played.......Pak-vs Aus and SA-vs. Lanka

would love to see a visiting team fight hard....and win some

like Pak did in Eng

Can see Khawaja getting axed for next tour/series...Smith is better at no3, leading from the front, and Shaun Marsh will probably come back in at 4