Sale player in trouble

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Sale player in trouble

Post by nathan on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:53 pm

Apparently a Sale player has been leaking tactics and was overheard boasting by another coach. I believe it was against Bristol.

Only info is coming from a reporter, so I'm not sure how true it is.

Hearing about a major issue surrounding Bristol vs Sale over Christmas and a player leaking information to opponents. 1/2

Premier Rugby and RFU have been informed and the player faces a disciplinary hearing tomorrow. I won't name the player until then. 2/2

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:55 pm

Yikes. So who was playing on December but has been dropped quickly in the new year?

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by nathan on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 7:57 pm

Forgot to add it's from Nigel Fissler from TRP

https://twitter.com/neilfissler/status/821072781232246784

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by nathan on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 8:01 pm

Not saying it's them but don't the arscott brothers with a player on each side?

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 8:05 pm

I was thinking maybe McGinty what with him having connections to the future head coach of Brizzle but that's a bit tenuous.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Scottrf on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 10:08 pm

nathan wrote:Not saying it's them but don't the arscott brothers with a player on each side?
Bristol post claim Tom Arscott, whatever 'understood to be' means.

http://m.bristolpost.co.uk/sale-sharks-player-investigated-over-leaking-information-to-bristol-rugby-player-ahead-of-clash/story-30062448-detail/story.html?123
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Exiledinborders on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 11:55 pm

The Guardian Website wrote:A spokesman for the RFU confirmed that the governing body was investigating the accusation, but no other details were given.

The spokesman said: “The RFU are investigating a complaint made by Sale Sharks in relation to the passing of information to the opposition team ahead of the match against Bristol earlier this month.”
Who are they complaining about? Surely they are responsible for their own player's conduct. Is it Bristol's fault if one of Sale's players has a big mouth.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 17 Jan 2017, 2:33 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
The Guardian Website wrote:A spokesman for the RFU confirmed that the governing body was investigating the accusation, but no other details were given.

The spokesman said: “The RFU are investigating a complaint made by Sale Sharks in relation to the passing of information to the opposition team ahead of the match against Bristol earlier this month.”
Who are they complaining about? Surely they are responsible for their own player's conduct. Is it Bristol's fault if one of Sale's players has a big mouth.
It's in the same class as match-fixing. Everyone has a stake in the integrity of the league.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 17 Jan 2017, 9:05 am

its on th beeb too - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38645622

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 12:32 pm

Sale seem very bitter that they lost to an improving Bristol team. Man up and move on.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 12:37 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Sale seem very bitter that they lost to an improving Bristol team. Man up and move on.

Bang on! Like all the bath fans listing us as Neandethals and the worst fans in the league for Ford getting a few boos...sour grapes!!

As you say...take the defeat like a man and move on!

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Scottrf on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 12:39 pm

Oh come on. Imagine the fuss if it was found they tried to keep it under wraps.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 12:49 pm

Aye Scott...all the politically correct pain in the backsides!

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 12:59 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Aye Scott...all the politically correct pain in the backsides!

What has PC got to do with it? It's in the same class as match-fixing. As soon as Sale knew something might be up, they had an obligation to act.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 1:29 pm

The biggest issue for me would be the trust between brothers if its been a discussion on the Christmas table and the other one has gone back and told his team.

We don't actually know what it is that has happened officially yet.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 1:50 pm

To be honest what could they say that would affect the result? - Dare I say it most teams do the same moves/tactics week in week out.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:03 pm

If Arscott did something that amounts to a crime, how stupid is he talking about it to someone within the club as well as within earshot of the coaches?

Though it depends on what he did, if its a case of casually talking about something with family and mentioning that his brother thought gave an opinion on it would be petty from Sale.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by propdavid_london on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:11 pm

Unless specific lineout calls or backs move codes were divulged then there isn't much of substance!

Bristol are going to come out guns blazing because they really need the win! Not exactly a secret...

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Scottrf on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:17 pm

Sale won every lineout (10/10) so if Bristol knew their calls they didn't take advantage very well.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:17 pm

Can they be stripped of the win though if they did know calls?

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:25 pm

marty2086 wrote:Can they be stripped of the win though if they did know calls?

If it is found that they received information that was confidential and acted on it, then they could be docked points, fined money or see the match result cancelled as part of the RFU Anti-Corruption policy.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by englishborn on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 8:47 am

Scottrf wrote:Sale won every lineout (10/10) so if Bristol knew their calls they didn't take advantage very well.

I have no idea what, if any, info was passed on, but there is more to knowing how a team will play than line out calls. As a player though it should be common sense not to meet up with an opposing player the night before, even if he is your brother.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by TightHEAD on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:05 am

Breaking News - Sale Sharks have confirmed they are looking in to reporting two members of the Toulon coaching staff to the 'powers that be' as they believe they have recently been in charge of Premiership teams that have played against them, therefore knew their game plan and tactics.

The two coaches involved were seen discussing tactics during a meal and a bottle of wine in the South of France before a European Cup game.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Scottrf on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:14 am

englishborn wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Sale won every lineout (10/10) so if Bristol knew their calls they didn't take advantage very well.

I have no idea what, if any, info was passed on, but there is more to knowing how a team will play than line out calls. As a player though it should be common sense not to meet up with an opposing player the night before, even if he is your brother.
Calls was just what had been mentioned, so thought I'd have a look to see if that had a positive effect.

Disagree that you shouldn't be able to spend time with your brother. People in all walks of live have sensitive information that would have huge business impact if they revealed it. I know I do, yet can go for a drink with someone from a rival company. Have to trust people to behave ethically.

Maybe it wouldn't be the best timing but I don't really think that's the issue.

(wasn't me that downvoted your post btw, I find the concept a bit silly.)
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:20 am

I thought the specific example used was that on a certain line-out call the entire Sale back line join the maul to rumble it over. I guess if they know this then Bristol could also all pile in, not worrying about the ball coming out.

My understanding is that in the players bar after the game some Bristol players boasted that they knew what Sale were going to be doing towards the end of the game and were able to stop them. Senior Sale players reported this to their coaches and we have the current investigation. Going to be very hard to prove anything - and quite probably it is a case of Sale putting one and one together and coming up with three.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Scottrf on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:22 am

LondonTiger wrote:I thought the specific example used was that on a certain line-out call the entire Sale back line join the maul to rumble it over. I guess if they know this then Bristol could also all pile in, not worrying about the ball coming out.

My understanding is that in the players bar after the game some Bristol players boasted that they knew what Sale were going to be doing towards the end of the game and were able to stop them. Senior Sale players reported this to their coaches and we have the current investigation. Going to be very hard to prove anything - and quite probably it is a case of Sale putting one and one together and coming up with three.
If that's what it was, it seems more a case of loose lips than intended sabotage.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:40 am

LondonTiger wrote:I thought the specific example used was that on a certain line-out call the entire Sale back line join the maul to rumble it over. I guess if they know this then Bristol could also all pile in, not worrying about the ball coming out.

My understanding is that in the players bar after the game some Bristol players boasted that they knew what Sale were going to be doing towards the end of the game and were able to stop them. Senior Sale players reported this to their coaches and we have the current investigation. Going to be very hard to prove anything - and quite probably it is a case of Sale putting one and one together and coming up with three.

Isn't it a case that if Sale want to launch and investigation of this type that they have to tell the RFU. As soon as they suspended Arscott they had to inform the authorities. The RFU might decide that Bristol have done nothing wrong, that's what we all expect to happen. They are unlikely to exonerate Arscott though and Sale will then sack him in all likelihood.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:46 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought the specific example used was that on a certain line-out call the entire Sale back line join the maul to rumble it over. I guess if they know this then Bristol could also all pile in, not worrying about the ball coming out.

My understanding is that in the players bar after the game some Bristol players boasted that they knew what Sale were going to be doing towards the end of the game and were able to stop them. Senior Sale players reported this to their coaches and we have the current investigation. Going to be very hard to prove anything - and quite probably it is a case of Sale putting one and one together and coming up with three.

Isn't it a case that if Sale want to launch and investigation of this type that they have to tell the RFU. As soon as they suspended Arscott they had to inform the authorities. The RFU might decide that Bristol have done nothing wrong, that's what we all expect to happen. They are unlikely to exonerate Arscott though and Sale will then sack him in all likelihood.

How do you come to that conclusion? Knowing that Bristol knew the calls, knowing that Arscott passed them to Bristol is different. You cant just sack someone because you THINK they did something wrong, you have to prove it and Im pretty sure you also have to prove intent too.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 10:01 am

marty2086 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought the specific example used was that on a certain line-out call the entire Sale back line join the maul to rumble it over. I guess if they know this then Bristol could also all pile in, not worrying about the ball coming out.

My understanding is that in the players bar after the game some Bristol players boasted that they knew what Sale were going to be doing towards the end of the game and were able to stop them. Senior Sale players reported this to their coaches and we have the current investigation. Going to be very hard to prove anything - and quite probably it is a case of Sale putting one and one together and coming up with three.

Isn't it a case that if Sale want to launch and investigation of this type that they have to tell the RFU. As soon as they suspended Arscott they had to inform the authorities. The RFU might decide that Bristol have done nothing wrong, that's what we all expect to happen. They are unlikely to exonerate Arscott though and Sale will then sack him in all likelihood.

How do you come to that conclusion? Knowing that Bristol knew the calls, knowing that Arscott passed them to Bristol is different. You cant just sack someone because you THINK they did something wrong, you have to prove it and Im pretty sure you also have to prove intent too.

There's no way Sale and their lawyers would suspend Arscott and report the incident to the RFU without evidence. They might not be able to/or want to implement Bristol but I'd put money on them being able to prove breach of contract by Arscott.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 10:09 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought the specific example used was that on a certain line-out call the entire Sale back line join the maul to rumble it over. I guess if they know this then Bristol could also all pile in, not worrying about the ball coming out.

My understanding is that in the players bar after the game some Bristol players boasted that they knew what Sale were going to be doing towards the end of the game and were able to stop them. Senior Sale players reported this to their coaches and we have the current investigation. Going to be very hard to prove anything - and quite probably it is a case of Sale putting one and one together and coming up with three.

Isn't it a case that if Sale want to launch and investigation of this type that they have to tell the RFU. As soon as they suspended Arscott they had to inform the authorities. The RFU might decide that Bristol have done nothing wrong, that's what we all expect to happen. They are unlikely to exonerate Arscott though and Sale will then sack him in all likelihood.

How do you come to that conclusion? Knowing that Bristol knew the calls, knowing that Arscott passed them to Bristol is different. You cant just sack someone because you THINK they did something wrong, you have to prove it and Im pretty sure you also have to prove intent too.

There's no way Sale and their lawyers would suspend Arscott and report the incident to the RFU without evidence. They might not be able to/or want to implement Bristol but I'd put money on them being able to prove breach of contract by Arscott.

Theres a reason they suspended him because they have to investigate, they may have evidence of him doing something but its a whole other matter for it to be at a level to be able to sack him. Even then he could still sue them.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:12 am

He could still sue them now if they don't have grounds for suspending him as it's unlikely any club will touch him given his reputation at the minute. Hence why I suspect he is significantly implicated and the extent and intent is what is being investigated.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Maine man on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 6:08 pm

Sacked according to the BBC

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Scottrf on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 6:20 pm

Might as well retire.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 7:19 pm

BBC state:

"Sale winger Tom Arscott has been sacked after he allegedly leaked confidential team information to Bristol before their Premiership game on 1 January"

So they must have some evince of wrong doing or they leave themselves open to breach of contract. If they have that much, Bristol could be in serious trouble as they have admitted that something took place although they claim it "wasn't anything of sporting value."

That is a term that could be very contentious in that what is of sporting value, the Sale team sheet could be of sporting value if it showed a change of probable tactics and gave them more time to prepare.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 9:46 am

Sale are going to court for the wrongful sacking of Arscott, based on evidence after a game over a drink.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:03 am

TightHEAD wrote:Sale are going to court for the wrongful sacking of Arscott, based on evidence after a game over a drink.

It was also based on him meeting his brother the night before the match, what information could be so big that it could cost a game and doesn't need proper preparation?

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by PhilBB on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:07 am

There's a great article in the Bristol Post about this.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 3:01 pm

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/bristol-rugby-blog/story-30071562-detail/story.html
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 3:17 pm

You can certainly tell it's the Bristol press writing it. The meaningful bits of the article are towards the bottom where it mentions that Diamond doesn't believe Bristol were interested in attempting to obtain information on Sale.

This is really between Arscott and Sale. Sale's lawyers are going to be ace at employment law between this and the Salemona case.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by nathan on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 3:21 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:You can certainly tell it's the Bristol press writing it. The meaningful bits of the article are towards the bottom where it mentions that Diamond doesn't believe Bristol were interested in attempting to obtain information on Sale.

This is really between Arscott and Sale. Sale's lawyers are going to be ace at employment law between this and the Salemona case.

We should lobby for lawyers salary to be included in the cap

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by englishborn on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:06 am

Slightly late but RFU find Arscott guilty of passing on information.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38958503

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by BamBam on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:08 am

nathan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:You can certainly tell it's the Bristol press writing it. The meaningful bits of the article are towards the bottom where it mentions that Diamond doesn't believe Bristol were interested in attempting to obtain information on Sale.

This is really between Arscott and Sale. Sale's lawyers are going to be ace at employment law between this and the Salemona case.

We should lobby for lawyers salary to be included in the cap

But then Saracens and Bath would be over the cap. Oh wait ..

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:12 am

englishborn wrote:Slightly late but RFU find Arscott guilty of passing on information.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38958503

The whole thing smells dodgy, two Bristol coaches were aware of the information and didn't report it yet were not found to have failed to comply with the reporting requirements? Headscratch

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by Scottrf on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:20 am

Perhaps there are no reporting requirements.
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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:22 am

Scottrf wrote:Perhaps there are no reporting requirements.

So they were found to not have failed to comply with reporting requirements that do not exist? Shocked Really?


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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by nathan on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:11 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Perhaps there are no reporting requirements.

So they were found to not have failed to comply with reporting requirements that do not exist? Shocked Really?


"No sanction was applied to Bristol with the RFU also determining that the club “did not fail to comply with the relevant reporting requirements in relation to the inside information received”"

Due to the low end nature of the information, perhaps they don't have to report it? or we could go with a cover up that you are wanting to go with.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by englishborn on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:21 pm

Lets go with a cover up, it is more interesting

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:23 pm

nathan wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Perhaps there are no reporting requirements.

So they were found to not have failed to comply with reporting requirements that do not exist? Shocked Really?


"No sanction was applied to Bristol with the RFU also determining that the club “did not fail to comply with the relevant reporting requirements in relation to the inside information received”"

Due to the low end nature of the information, perhaps they don't have to report it? or we could go with a cover up that you are wanting to go with.

Who said anything about a cover up?

Now you are just being stupid

It obviously wasn't low end since Arscott was found guilty, which is in fact the offence not the level of information.

What Im pointing to is the disparity in results of the findings

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by nathan on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 1:23 pm

marty2086 wrote:
nathan wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Perhaps there are no reporting requirements.

So they were found to not have failed to comply with reporting requirements that do not exist? Shocked Really?


"No sanction was applied to Bristol with the RFU also determining that the club “did not fail to comply with the relevant reporting requirements in relation to the inside information received”"

Due to the low end nature of the information, perhaps they don't have to report it? or we could go with a cover up that you are wanting to go with.

Who said anything about a cover up?

Now you are just being stupid

It obviously wasn't low end since Arscott was found guilty, which is in fact the offence not the level of information.

What Im pointing to is the disparity in results of the findings

Ugh?

So you are implying that a player who was caught on a low end sanction wouldn't be guilty?

It's simple, they look to see if any information has been passed on. Then they look at what information it was and if it was used by the other teams. They then use the Insider Information policy to determine punishment and if it should be reported.

Regarding the cover up comment, i just get fed up of mainly Irish folks on here looking for something when it isn't there.

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Re: Sale player in trouble

Post by marty2086 on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 1:43 pm

nathan wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
nathan wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Perhaps there are no reporting requirements.

So they were found to not have failed to comply with reporting requirements that do not exist? Shocked Really?


"No sanction was applied to Bristol with the RFU also determining that the club “did not fail to comply with the relevant reporting requirements in relation to the inside information received”"

Due to the low end nature of the information, perhaps they don't have to report it? or we could go with a cover up that you are wanting to go with.

Who said anything about a cover up?

Now you are just being stupid

It obviously wasn't low end since Arscott was found guilty, which is in fact the offence not the level of information.

What Im pointing to is the disparity in results of the findings

Ugh?

So you are implying that a player who was caught on a low end sanction wouldn't be guilty?

It's simple, they look to see if any information has been passed on. Then they look at what information it was and if it was used by the other teams. They then use the Insider Information policy to determine punishment and if it should be reported.

Regarding the cover up comment, i just get fed up of mainly Irish folks on here looking for something when it isn't there.

Is reading that difficult for you?

I think its clear what I have said

Arscott is guilty, he passed information and the coaches knew about it, they had a duty to report it. The fact that the RFU admit they knew but aren't guilty and didn't report it is flawed logic Rolling Eyes

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Re: Sale player in trouble

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