AP team succession planning and future proofing

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AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:04 am

At Bath the ongoing saga with George Ford, to be resolved shortly, highlights an imminent scenario with regards of future recruitment by the club, namely ;

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37311767

The PRL agreed salary cap freeze after next season requires that clubs plan very carefully on the constituent parts of their squads. Age and the EQP element will clearly be important factors. The £500k increase to £7M for next season will presumably have to be held in reserve to cover the annual salary increases and contingencies during the period.

The RFU incentives for EQP levels and player access will become increasingly attractive during this period. Bath run at about 18 EQP players per their match day squads. The forwards are mainly EQP and under 25, particularly in the front five. However at half back, centres and wings there are or will be clear gaps over the next three/four years.
A positive implication could be the emergence of more young EQP squad members but where external recruitment is required, the Aaron Cruden example shows how far ahead the french are in terms of salary caps and the Pro12 doesn't have a cap - Leinster used nearly sixty players through their last seasons campaign - not even Tigers have that big a squad !

What will be the implications for other AP clubs ???

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:07 am

Well we at the falcons don't operate at the higher echelons of the salary cap...we'd get a nose bleed up there.

We concentrate on aging quality, tier 2 internationals, academy players and rebuilding broken players.


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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:09 am

Although last season was a huge problem...we had numerous players away at the world cup...and a genuinely insane injury list going into the season. This meant no preseason training for half the squad, poor planning etc.And we genuinely struggled.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by demosthenes on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:18 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:At Bath the ongoing saga with George Ford, to be resolved shortly, highlights an imminent scenario with regards of future recruitment by the club, namely ;

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37311767

The PRL agreed salary cap freeze after next season requires that clubs plan very carefully on the constituent parts of their squads. Age and the EQP element will clearly be important factors. The £500k increase to £7M for next season will presumably have to be held in reserve to cover the annual salary increases and contingencies during the period.

The RFU incentives for EQP levels and player access will become increasingly attractive during this period. Bath run at about 18 EQP players per their match day squads.  The forwards are mainly EQP and under 25, particularly in the front five. However at half back, centres and wings there are or will be clear gaps over the next three/four years.
A positive implication could be the emergence of more young EQP squad members but where external recruitment is required, the Aaron Cruden example shows how far ahead the french are in terms of salary caps and the Pro12 doesn't have a cap - Leinster used nearly sixty players through their last seasons campaign - not even Tigers have that big a squad !

What will be the implications for other AP clubs ???

Not entirely relevant to the question, but since you mention it, I would be more that surprised if any of the Pro 12 clubs have a salary bill anywhere near the proposed AP cap. Most of the Pro 12 extended squads will be academy or attached players outside of a core of full-time pros - Glasgow list 52 plus 10, but of the 52 several are sevens players 'attached' to Glasgow, and others are relatively short term injury covers who wont be seen again. I would say the core is probably 45. Leinster and Glasgow were / are also especially hard-hit with international call-ups, especially during a World Cup year.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:36 am

Injuries are without doubt the biggest unknown - at Bath the TH position had raised debate with Davey Wilson leaving and Henry Thomas out for the season. Lahiff has (temporarily) converted from LH, Palma-Newport has come from the academy but has never quite matched expectations. Shaun Knight is EQP, but that's about it. Any further injuries leaves the squad exposed.

My point about the other leagues is that recruitment won't be easy from these leagues - probably a good thing in the long run for all sides. The SRU have matched AP caps up until recently, never exactly sure what the irish spend but certainly AP access to around sixty players is unheard of. Only the welsh teams appear significantly lower on spend.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:40 am

demosthenes wrote:

Not entirely relevant to the question, but since you mention it, I would be more that surprised if any of the Pro 12 clubs have a salary bill anywhere near the proposed AP cap.  Most of the Pro 12 extended squads will be academy or attached players outside of a core of full-time pros - Glasgow list 52 plus 10, but of the 52 several are sevens players 'attached' to Glasgow, and others are relatively short term injury covers who wont be seen again.  I would say the core is probably 45.  Leinster and Glasgow were / are also especially hard-hit with international call-ups, especially during a World Cup year.

Ulster have a demonstrable wage bill of c£6.5m and it's clear that Leinster and Munster spend more than them.

Glasgow have a squad including 37 international players.

The SRU spends over £24m on 'the professional game' and it only has two teams.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:43 am

Here is the salary cap detail as it stands:

"The current level of the Salary Cap for 2016-17 is £6.5m, plus 2 Excluded Players whose salaries sit outside the cap, enabling clubs to recruit and retain world class talent. Within the £6.5 million salary cap ceiling, clubs are encouraged to develop home grown talent by accessing up to £500,000 of Home Grown Player Credits. Also, they can provide an unlimited education (academic or vocational) fund to their players, and can replace long-term injured players without impacting on their Salary Cap ceiling.

Injury Dispensations up to a maximum of £400,000 per season continue to be available to each Club, a new England Senior EPS or International Player Credit of up to £80,000 per player has been introduced to cover for player absence during international periods"

In reality, the cap is £7.4m plus two marquee players outside of that (making it at least £8.5m) plus £x00,000 more for England players. If a club has 5 England players, it really can spend up to £9m.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by demosthenes on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:59 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:Injuries are without doubt the biggest unknown - at Bath the TH position had raised debate with Davey Wilson leaving and Henry Thomas out for the season. Lahiff has (temporarily) converted from LH, Palma-Newport has come from the academy but has never quite matched expectations. Shaun Knight is EQP, but that's about it. Any further injuries leaves the squad exposed.

My point about the other leagues is that recruitment won't be easy from these leagues - probably a good thing in the long run for all sides. The SRU have matched AP caps up until recently, never exactly sure what the irish spend but certainly AP access to around sixty players is unheard of. Only the welsh teams appear significantly lower on spend.

On the injury front, don't you have provisions for extra spending if needed for injury cover. Presumably for long term, anyway?

In relation to the SRU, the CEO has made it clear that without external investment they will be unable to keep up with salaries in the AP and Top14 going forward. I am aware that they have previously looked at individual player 'sponsorship', but don't know how sustainable that is.

In terms of recruitment - well, I don't know. The Scottish clubs will still offer some targets, as with only two clubs they need to move people on to make room for new talent; and for some the grass is always greener, etc.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:00 am

No its currently 6
.5 million plus whatever you want for those marquee players. Where are you getting 9 million from.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:No its currently 6 million plus whatever you want for those marquee players. Where are you getting 9 million from.

FFS.

£6.5m base
£0.5m EQP
£0.4m injury
£0.4m EPS
£1.1m marquee

Total £8.9m
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:09 am

Yes I am aware of the add ons and these plus the RFU incentives are not going to increase further together with the PRL cap until at least September 2020.

Clubs like Newcastle may well close the gap during this period, it would be good if they did and were consistently competitive - not always achieved by simply spending money. However most clubs are though close to the current limit. How this is managed over the next three/four years will be interesting.
The French model is different as they have never had to invest in stadia. My only sympathy is with the welsh set up where the WRU barred team aspirations of the historic clubs but then did not fully invest/back their new regional structure.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:12 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:Yes I am aware of the add ons and these plus the RFU incentives are not going to increase further together with the PRL cap until at least September 2020.

Clubs like Newcastle may well close the gap during this period, it would be good if they did and were consistently competitive - not always achieved by simply spending money. However most clubs are though close to the current limit. How this is managed over the next three/four years will be interesting.
The French model is different as they have never had to invest in stadia. My only sympathy is with the welsh set up where the WRU barred team aspirations of the historic clubs but then did not fully invest/back their new regional structure.

The under payment thought is right but it's not right to say the WRU barred the aspirations of the historic clubs at all.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:15 am

So its 6.5 any added on from your marquee the 500k is a payment from the rfu for English players not an allowance on spend and you only get the injury and England player allowance if those happen to replace those players which obviously doesn't happen every time. So not 9 million at all really.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:17 am

My observation was based on old mate of mine who was a Neath supporter and he still is a Neath supporter - he has no interest in the Ospreys.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:17 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So its 6.5 any added on from your marquee the 500k is a payment from the rfu for English players not an allowance on spend and you only get the injury and England player allowance if those happen to replace those players which obviously doesn't happen every time. So not 9 million at all really.

You're right about the £500k, I missed the word 'within'.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:19 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:My observation was based on old mate of mine who was a Neath supporter and he still is a Neath supporter - he has no interest in the Ospreys.

That's his issue. His club voluntarily merged with Swansea in 2003 to form the Os.

And he should remember that he only had a Neath club in 2003 thanks to the WRU rescuing it from bankruptcy when it was a members' organisation.

Clubs like Cardiff and Llanelli stood alone, others merged, but all top 8 clubs at the time pushed that solution.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So its 6.5 any added on from your marquee the 500k is a payment from the rfu for English players not an allowance on spend and you only get the injury and England player allowance if those happen to replace those players which obviously doesn't happen every time. So not 9 million at all really.

The EPS payments are obviously spent as are the injury allowances, however.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:23 am

That noted, if Beale is on 'excess of £700,000' then my £9m figure isn't far off:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/13/kurtley-beale-joins-wasps-australia
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:24 am

You have the stats to be back that up I'm sure for the injuries.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:25 am

The marquee is what they want to spend. Have to be players new to the league don't they? And obviously not all clubs have the money to spend on Beale etc.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:26 am

And none of us know what the total salaries paid are unfortunately.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:27 am

Well, Eastmond moved to Wasps out of that £400k thanks to Beale's injury.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The marquee is what they want to spend. Have to be players new to the league don't they? And obviously not all clubs have the money to spend on Beale etc.

My point is about the maximum.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:32 am

Fair enough - my pal remembers the history of Neath far better than I do.
The injury dispensation is useful but ultimately pretty difficult to spend and bring in players mid season.

However the detail doesn't change my original observation on how AP clubs will manage this period. The next exponential tv deal could potentially lead to a significant jump in the cap, which has implications for all.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:35 am

Didn't realise Eastmond was only afforded though additional injury funding as I've no idea what wasps were up to in regards to the salary cap. I'll bring honeSt and say I didn't realise clubs were limited to how much they can pay for marquees.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by carpet baboon on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:35 am

Is the AP salary cap just players or coaches/ backroom staff aswell?

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:47 am

The Eastmond episode was unusual in that his contract negotiation occurred during the period of Mike Ford's departure, which ultimately left him without a club over the summer. Beale was injured before the season started so the timing was unusual and worked for all. That is not the norm.
My understanding is that coaches are not part of the salary cap.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by carpet baboon on Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:31 am

Sorry another question. Can I assume that the academy players don't come into the cap either?

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:52 am

The academy has a separate cap - the max salary for an academy player is £30k. Any higher and you become a senior squad member. Bath currently have nine forwards and four backs qualified to their academy. Several have been in senior match day squads, generally covering injuries. All are EQ apart from two.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:37 am

carpet baboon wrote:Is the AP salary cap just players or coaches/ backroom staff aswell?

Just players but player/coaches count 100% towards the cap.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Heaf on Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:33 am

OK I'll say it - Does it matter what's included as any team that wants to ignore it will surely be able to as the precedent's been set now Run

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:39 am

All this is part of the point David Flatman raised on his podcast.

http://www.606v2.com/t64839-player-salaries

Eggchasers picked up the theme this week when Cockers wondered whether Gloucester's recent signings - Carl Fearns, Owen Williams & Val Rapava Ruskin - are worth their rumoured price tags.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:42 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Sorry another question. Can I assume that the academy players don't come into the cap either?

If you're really interested, everything is covered here:

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/sotic-wordpress-assets/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/24115855/PremiershipRugbySalaryCapRegulations201617.pdf
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:24 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Yes I am aware of the add ons and these plus the RFU incentives are not going to increase further together with the PRL cap until at least September 2020.

Clubs like Newcastle may well close the gap during this period, it would be good if they did and were consistently competitive - not always achieved by simply spending money. However most clubs are though close to the current limit. How this is managed over the next three/four years will be interesting.
The French model is different as they have never had to invest in stadia. My only sympathy is with the welsh set up where the WRU barred team aspirations of the historic clubs but then did not fully invest/back their new regional structure.

I don't think you'll see us spending huge amounts. Dean likes to employ from within...ie developing his players from the academy or rough diamonds from elsewhere. That policy is starting to bear fruit yet again with a host of players coming through nicely. Mind he has no choice at the falcons as we don't have money to splash out on already established stars....

But if he keeps signing players like Evan Olmstead from London Scottish, Calum Green from Leeds, Nili Latu from Japan and bringing through the academy lads like Mark Wilson, Will Welch, Sean Robinson, Will Witty, Scott Wilson etc...then I don't care if we don't sign superstars!

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by carpet baboon on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:40 pm

PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Sorry another question. Can I assume that the academy players don't come into the cap either?

If you're really interested, everything is covered here:

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/sotic-wordpress-assets/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/24115855/PremiershipRugbySalaryCapRegulations201617.pdf

Cheers phill will have a read when I get a spare 5 mins

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:41 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Sorry another question. Can I assume that the academy players don't come into the cap either?

If you're really interested, everything is covered here:

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/sotic-wordpress-assets/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/24115855/PremiershipRugbySalaryCapRegulations201617.pdf

Cheers phill will have a read when I get a spare 5 mins

Make it 10.... the last 5 minutes will be spend head scratching....!
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by carpet baboon on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:42 pm

PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Sorry another question. Can I assume that the academy players don't come into the cap either?

If you're really interested, everything is covered here:

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/sotic-wordpress-assets/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/24115855/PremiershipRugbySalaryCapRegulations201617.pdf

Cheers phill will have a read when I get a spare 5 mins

Make it 10.... the last 5 minutes will be spend head scratching....!

I will make it 20 then as it's already been a long week

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:38 am

I do wonder just how many clubs currently spend all the way up to the cap. The current level is already too high (if we consider affordability) and it is interesting that the club with the largest gate receipts cannot afford to spend the full amounts they are entitled to.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:41 am

LondonTiger wrote:I do wonder just how many clubs currently spend all the way up to the cap. The current level is already too high (if we consider affordability) and it is interesting that the club with the largest gate receipts cannot afford to spend the full amounts they are entitled to.

As an aside, Top14 teams earn (on average) just 18% of their income from match days. 19% comes from TV and 47% comes from sponsorship.

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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:01 am

Much of that 47% sponsorship comes from the owners does it not?

In 2014/15 Leicester had income of just over £20m of which £6m was from matchdays, £4m from PRL and a whopping £10m from commercial activities. Profit was £400k. No breakdown for 2015/16 yet but income (in part due to RWC) fell by £1m and teh club reported a loss of about £400k.

Due to this we are not up to teh cap and we have been unable to fund "medical joker" replcement.

By contrast the team that pushed most for increased cap had £15m turnover in 2014/15 and reported a loss of £4m. They however can afford to spend money. Very Happy


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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by PhilBB on Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:08 am

Depends on what you mean by much but certainly Michelin don't own ASM nor do Peugeot own Toulouse. I don't think Mourad has a company to use to sponsor Toulon.

So, no, I'm not sure that it is "much". French corporate tax laws have a number of breaks to 'encourage' local sponsorship.
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Re: AP team succession planning and future proofing

Post by Recwatcher16 on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:18 am

LondonTiger wrote:I do wonder just how many clubs currently spend all the way up to the cap. The current level is already too high (if we consider affordability) and it is interesting that the club with the largest gate receipts cannot afford to spend the full amounts they are entitled to.

That was pretty much the point of this thread in terms of the cap being frozen and the subsequent impact on the composition of AP squads, where there is minimal leeway within the cap.

Bath are pretty well positioned in terms of forwards which are predominantly English (for the RFU incentive payments) except for the back row and the clear majority are also under 25, to see the squad through the cap freeze period.
However at half back and wings, Bath will be under to pressure to recruit. When/if Ford goes, injury prone Priestland and Hastings are the current options, with Glasgow circling the latter. On the wings Banahan, Roko and Brew will all be into their thirties, leaving just Watson as an established winger.

I wondered on the potential impact for other AP sides during this period.

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