6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

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Post by George Carlin on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 10:10 am

First topic message reminder :

6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Scot_f10     6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Irelan10 
SCOTLAND IRELAND 
4 February 2017
KO: 14:25
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) and Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand

Live on BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)

A. Head to Head

132 Played 132
66 Won 61 
5 Drawn 5
61 Lost 66
1,380 Points 1,475

B. Recent Form

19 March 2016
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
35 – 25 to Ireland

15 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 22 to Ireland

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 
6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Scotla10
15-Stuart Hogg; 14-Sean Maitland, 13-Huw Jones, 12-Alex Dunbar, 11-Tommy Seymour; 10-Finn Russell, 9-Greig Laidlaw (capt); 1-Allan Dell, 2-Fraser Brown, 3-Zander Fagerson, 4-Richie Gray, 5-Jonny Gray, 6-Ryan Wilson, 7-Hamish Watson, 8-Josh Strauss

Replacements: 16-Ross Ford, 17-Gordon Reid, 18-Simon Berghan, 19-Tim Swinson, 20-John Barclay, 21-Ali Price, 22-Duncan Weir, 23-Mark Bennett

IRELAND
6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Irelan10
15-Rob Kearney; 14-Keith Earls, 13-Robbie Henshaw, 12-Garry Ringrose, 11-Simon Zebo; 10-Paddy Jackson, 9-Conor Murray; 1-Jack McGrath, 2-Rory Best (captain), 3-Tadhg Furlong, 4-Iain Henderson, 5-Devin Toner, 6-CJ Stander, 7-Sean O'Brien, 8-Jamie Heaslip

Replacements: 16-Niall Scannell, 17-Cian Healy, 18-John Ryan, 19-Ultan Dillane, 20-Josh van der Flier, 21-Kieran Marmion, 22-Ian Keatley, 23-Tommy Bowe.


Last edited by George Carlin on Sat 04 Feb 2017, 5:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue 07 Feb 2017, 10:31 am

GLove39 wrote:Tattie Scones, really hope you see this, so thrilled your Scotland winning ratio has doubled!!!!

6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 C3ricp9XUAAh_va

Cheers Glove! Don't think I'll bother going to any other games and end on a high.

In all fairness though, despite the huge risk of death if there was a fire in the 3 Sisters Saturday night, I have to say the Irish fans were brilliant in defeat. They were all glad that the defeat came from Scotland rather than anyone else.

Atmosphere at MF was one of the best I've encountered there and not once did anyone in a blazer ask me to sit down.

Just brilliant.

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Post by RDW on Tue 07 Feb 2017, 10:46 am

Riskysports wrote:I bet the Scottish team were loving the media trial by Murray as I think it might have been a little distraction for them (just my opinion)

I bet the Scottish training room was going

VC " they are going to except us to target Murray - let them continue to think that, I have other plans"

Team - "so what are we going to do instead"

VC - "Run the ragged and put Laidlaw at the front of a line out?"

Team - "Laidlaw, he is only 3 ft 2 - what good is he going to do there?"

VC - "just you watch - it will be magic, Dunbar....a word"


Laugh

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 07 Feb 2017, 10:49 am

Riskysports wrote:I bet the Scottish team were loving the media trial by Murray as I think it might have been a little distraction for them (just my opinion)

I bet the Scottish training room was going

VC " they are going to except us to target Murray - let them continue to think that, I have other plans"

Team - "so what are we going to do instead"

VC - "Run the ragged and put Laidlaw at the front of a line out?"

Team - "Laidlaw, he is only 3 ft 2 - what good is he going to do there?"

VC - "just you watch - it will be magic, Dunbar....a word"


Scotland actually tried the same lineout move against Ireland last year in the six nations. Laidlaw and Dunbar were in the lineout but they were marked that time. They showed it on against the head last night.

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Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 07 Feb 2017, 11:41 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Riskysports wrote:I bet the Scottish team were loving the media trial by Murray as I think it might have been a little distraction for them (just my opinion)

I bet the Scottish training room was going

VC " they are going to except us to target Murray - let them continue to think that, I have other plans"

Team - "so what are we going to do instead"

VC - "Run the ragged and put Laidlaw at the front of a line out?"

Team - "Laidlaw, he is only 3 ft 2 - what good is he going to do there?"

VC - "just you watch - it will be magic, Dunbar....a word"


Scotland actually tried the same lineout move against Ireland last year in the six nations. Laidlaw and Dunbar were in the lineout but they were marked that time. They showed it on against the head last night.

Which leaves what happened on Saturday even less excusable. There was a complete lack of communication from Ireland to not mark the players and quick thinking from Scotland to spot that. Ireland really were at 6's and 7's at that stage and in full panic mode which makes the fightback in the second half all the more impressive IMO. Just watched it again last night and we really should have closed the game out but the effort to get in front took a lot out of the players both mentally and physically. Scotland were just not ever going to let that match slip away and in the end did what was needed. A great match and a great Scottish side which I could see doing very well in the tournament. I don't believe for a second that Saturday's performance will be a one off, not with these players.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 07 Feb 2017, 1:55 pm

tigertattie wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I include myself in that!

To be fair, at least 10 pages of this thread were devoted to Connor Murray. And after all that I don't think he even got as much as a tickle at the back of a ruck!

I was actually really disappointed with that. I really hoped someone would have given him a proper (and legal) rib tickler! This being said, it shows that the players were sent out there to do a job - to win a game - and ignore the mutterings of a torn faced disaster. I'll take a win over a personal score to settle any day of the week!

Not strictly true. Richie Gray gave Murray a tickle that was both late and high after he had launched a kick, but it was an isolated incident, nobody was hurt and was nothing that half backs wouldn't expect in any game. Murray didn't make a fuss - maybe he realised that Richie is like an oil tanker and had no choice?

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Post by IanBru on Tue 07 Feb 2017, 2:15 pm

Yes, I saw that too Auk. I was a bit annoyed by it, despite it being pretty tame, if only because we'd gone for most of the match without trying anything against Murray, and we couldn't know how the refereeing team would react.

At that point, I think Scotland were a point down, and the penalty (had one been given) would have been well inside Scotland's 22 where the ball landed.
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 08 Feb 2017, 10:25 am

Anyone else attending the fan Q&A with Joe Schmidt today?

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Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 08 Feb 2017, 10:53 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Anyone else attending the fan Q&A with Joe Schmidt today?

Apparently it's only for the intelligentsia.

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Post by alive555 on Wed 08 Feb 2017, 11:49 pm

Way too much chat about ireland

Let's face it . The first half we blitzed them . And it wasn't a surprise

Which Irish back would get into the scottish backline?

Murray?

Scotlands second team are all better .

Scott Bennett Taylor??

Way ahead .

It was very nearly a 4 try bonus game . Let's get real here folks.
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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:47 am

alive555 wrote:Which Irish back would get into the scottish backline?

What about Seymour?

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Post by rapidsnowman on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 4:51 am

What about Seymour?

He couldn't get in the Ulster team!

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 10:10 am

Scotland were better on the day no doubt but Murray and Henshaw would make the team and Jackson was Russells equal.

Out wide, without Payne no argument, Hogg clearly the best 15 and Maitland the best winger.

Ireland had issues with Ringrose, Earls and Kearney in defence and fair play Scotland exposed them.

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Post by cakeordeath on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 10:59 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Scotland were better on the day no doubt but Murray and Henshaw would make the team and Jackson was Russells equal.

Out wide, without Payne no argument, Hogg clearly the best 15 and Maitland the best winger.

Ireland had issues with Ringrose, Earls and Kearney in defence and fair play Scotland exposed them.

I think Ringrose would. I think he is a great player, although he didn't have a great game on Saturday

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 11:03 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Scotland were better on the day no doubt but Murray and Henshaw would make the team and Jackson was Russells equal.

Out wide, without Payne no argument, Hogg clearly the best 15 and Maitland the best winger.

Ireland had issues with Ringrose, Earls and Kearney in defence and fair play Scotland exposed them.

Thought Kearney had a very good game. What were the defensive issues with Kearney? Ringrose and Earls missed the tackles for the two Hogg tries and Dunbar scored to other from the lineout.

Kearney was one of Ireland's better players IMO.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 11:10 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Scotland were better on the day no doubt but Murray and Henshaw would make the team and Jackson was Russells equal.

Out wide, without Payne no argument, Hogg clearly the best 15 and Maitland the best winger.

Ireland had issues with Ringrose, Earls and Kearney in defence and fair play Scotland exposed them.

Thought Kearney had a very good game. What were the defensive issues with Kearney? Ringrose and Earls missed the tackles for the two Hogg tries and Dunbar scored to other from the lineout.

Kearney was one of Ireland's better players IMO.

Apparently Kearney was at fault for Zebo being on the wrong wing for the first try and should have went and filled in for him, according to some Munster fans anyway Whistle

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 11:14 am

One thing is for sure when Ireland lose it is usually because Heaslip and Kearney had a bad game. Either that or Schmidt is the devil.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 11:47 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:One thing is for sure when Ireland lose it is usually because Heaslip and Kearney had a bad game. Either that or Schmidt is the devil.

Heaslip had a mixed game for me, got some things right and some things wrong I think SOB was the same

Kearney had a good game but is taking the blame because of mistakes by Zebo and Earls that left him exposed


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Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:01 pm

Kearney, Zebo, Earls?

Hmmm...........................

I'd add Murray.

Billy will be ever so annoyed with me.

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Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:05 pm

I thought Kearney had a decent game and Heaslip, whilst not at his absolute best, was still very effective. Ringrose was left badly exposed for Hogg's second try as the Irish defence had packed a blinside that didn't need packed which left Ringrose high and dry with 2 Scottish players outside him. Not his fault at all.

Lets call last week a small blip and get on with winning the championship Wink

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:Kearney, Zebo, Earls?

Hmmm...........................  

I'd add Murray.

Billy will be ever so annoyed with me.

Think Murray was hampered by the forwards not cleaning up the breakdown especially in the first half, near the end he started to panic though

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Post by eirebilly on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:Kearney, Zebo, Earls?

Hmmm...........................  

I'd add Murray.

Billy will be ever so annoyed with me.

I actually thought that Kearney was quite good.
Zebo wasn't at his best but was also not too bad.
Earls took his try well but had a poor day defensively.
Murray was decent in the second half but had an overall bad day at the office.
Heaslip had a very poor game by his high standards.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:27 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:I thought Kearney had a decent game and Heaslip, whilst not at his absolute best, was still very effective. Ringrose was left badly exposed for Hogg's second try as the Irish defence had packed a blinside that didn't need packed which left Ringrose high and dry with 2 Scottish players outside him. Not his fault at all.

Lets call last week a small blip and get on with winning the championship Wink

I can weigh in behind that. Wales lost their first game a few years back and went on to win.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:33 pm

Defensively I thought Kearney was not great.

As a unit 11,13,14,15 were poor and he was part of that unit.
Scotland saw the problems and exposed them.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:38 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Defensively I thought Kearney was not great.

As a unit 11,13,14,15 were poor and he was part of that unit.
Scotland saw the problems and exposed them.

Trying to plug the holes left by the deficiencies of others was his problem for me

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:38 pm

Or did he cause some of the problems ?

Matter of interpretation

For me Zebo was the one plugging holes caused by the others

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:40 pm

eirebilly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Kearney, Zebo, Earls?

Hmmm...........................  

I'd add Murray.

Billy will be ever so annoyed with me.

I actually thought that Kearney was quite good.
Zebo wasn't at his best but was also not too bad.
Earls took his try well but had a poor day defensively.
Murray was decent in the second half but had an overall bad day at  the office.
Heaslip had a very poor game by his high standards.

OK That's all I ever ask. Honest read-out there, billy.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:42 pm

Well when Zebo abandons his position and Earls misses tackles theres little interpretation needed there

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:43 pm

Ok we will agree to differ

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:44 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Defensively I thought Kearney was not great.

As a unit 11,13,14,15 were poor and he was part of that unit.
Scotland saw the problems and exposed them.

Kearney didnt miss one tackle though.
He made almost double the metres of any other Ireland player at 102 metres, Jackson 63 Heaslip 62.
He made more clean breaks and beat more defenders than anyone else and also made more turn overs.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/255003.html

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:45 pm

Just not sure how Kearney can be expected to improves Earls tackling or is responsible for Zebo being on the wrong side of the field is all

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 2:55 pm

It is not just tackling it is positioning.

Maybe Zebo was trying to cover gaps left by Kearney - that argument cuts both ways

To be honest Kearney and Zebo were the better of the 4 - I thought Earls and Ringrose were very poor.
My point is as a unit they were very weak and Scotland ruthlessly exploited it.

Kearney as the seasoned pro takes some of the responsibility for that.

Clearly I am in a minority on that though

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 3:09 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:It is not just tackling it is positioning.

Maybe Zebo was trying to cover gaps left by Kearney - that argument cuts both ways

To be honest Kearney and Zebo were the better of the 4 - I thought Earls and Ringrose were very poor.
My point is as a unit they were very weak and Scotland ruthlessly exploited it.

Kearney as the seasoned pro takes some of the responsibility for that.

Clearly I am in a minority on that though

He can take some of the blame as he was sweeping in behind but we had 6 defenders covering the short side which was a quarter of the field including Zebo who was where he didn't need to be, 3 committed to the ruck including Heaslip who dived in inexplicably leaving an overexposed overloaded open side

The defensive system as a whole for me left a lot to be desired, with Trimble it makes sense as he is great at reading things whereas Earls defends as a centre who's ended up out wide

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 3:10 pm

Agreed, we missed Trimble a lot.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 3:19 pm

15 to 9 don't scare anybody - as a unit.  You have Murray in isolation and we all know the score - the Irish wunderkid, the Lions nailed-on, the unputdownable player etc. etc but as a lethal unit of backs, even with him, we're not feared.

Sexton in isolation is another player that gets the attention of the outside observers but still the unit, even with those two in it,  lacks that something needed to stir the fear.

Kearney, in isolation - well, the All Blacks hate him Wink - he plays mediocre a lot but when he meets a black shirt he becomes possessed.  Yet still............... it's not enough, those three.

So........... continuing weak link for me is that midfield combination that Schmidt is still being forced to experiment with and both wing positions.  We need a new approach again to 14, 13, 12 and 11.  It's just not working good enough no matter which current players are chosen.

Payne has been much maligned by some but it's clear he provided another solid if conservative presence within those four problematic positions - but his age suggests he can't be part of the future.

So that's always my 4 problem positions - holding us back and stalling any advantages drawn by our potent forwards.

I think Kearney's questionable consistency would possibly see him sacrificed to find a backline that would function and cause real consternation in the opposition + then too drawing some attention away from our linebreaking forwards.  You need real lethal threats in the backs and out wide to give the forwards more potential bite through the middle.

It needs solving.  I don't think Schmidt is or has been giving it enough thought.  I'm surprised that a backs specialist feels our dull imprint there is enough, year in and year out.  He needs to have the courage to change the familiar repeating names there to see what might happen.

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Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 3:43 pm

Lets say Henshaw hadn't tripped over a retreating Scottish defender and had picked up Heaslip's offload. Lets say Kearney is an inch short of touch when he pops the ball to Earls. Lets even say Poite had decided the knock-on in the 65th minute was deliberate (which it looked to be Wink ). Lets say those things came to be and Ireland won convincingly would we then be singing a different tune about these players who played so badly? After the uncharacteristic slow start when the team simply wasn't at the races we played really well. Granted we should have closed the game out but it really was those few very fine margins that stopped us.

What I'm saying here is this side is far better than last Saturday's result and for that matter a loss like that can be galvanizing which would be of great benefit for the next set of games. We can still win this thing and I'd not bet against us doing it because apart from that first half Scottish side nobody else had a great first weekend either.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 3:47 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Lets say Henshaw hadn't tripped over a retreating Scottish defender and had picked up Heaslip's offload. Lets say Kearney is an inch short of touch when he pops the ball to Earls. Lets even say Poite had decided the knock-on in the 65th minute was deliberate (which it looked to be Wink ). Lets say those things came to be and Ireland won convincingly would we then be singing a different tune about these players who played so badly? After the uncharacteristic slow start when the team simply wasn't at the races we played really well. Granted we should have closed the game out but it really was those few very fine margins that stopped us.

What I'm saying here is this side is far better than last Saturday's result and for that matter a loss like that can be galvanizing which would be of great benefit for the next set of games. We can still win this thing and I'd not bet against us doing it because apart from that first half Scottish side nobody else had a great first weekend either.

Or if Poite had realised that the offence wasn't Jackson not rolling away but the Scottish player going off his feet and holding Jackson in the ruck then they don't retake the lead Whistle

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6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Empty Re: 6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 3:49 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Lets say Henshaw hadn't tripped over a retreating Scottish defender and had picked up Heaslip's offload. Lets say Kearney is an inch short of touch when he pops the ball to Earls. Lets even say Poite had decided the knock-on in the 65th minute was deliberate (which it looked to be Wink ). Lets say those things came to be and Ireland won convincingly would we then be singing a different tune about these players who played so badly? After the uncharacteristic slow start when the team simply wasn't at the races we played really well. Granted we should have closed the game out but it really was those few very fine margins that stopped us.

What I'm saying here is this side is far better than last Saturday's result and for that matter a loss like that can be galvanizing which would be of great benefit for the next set of games. We can still win this thing and I'd not bet against us doing it because apart from that first half Scottish side nobody else had a great first weekend either.

Laugh

Thanks for nailing it in the head. Let's just say, I've grown weary with the 'Let's says' as they refer to our back boys.

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6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Empty Re: 6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 4:12 pm

Listen.....no harm in losing to the champions elect.

For what it's worth, I still think you'll dry bum England at home.

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6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Empty Re: 6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 4:39 pm

Shut it Tattie! Stop trying to jinx us. We have an RTE panellist to get past at the weekend - and anybody who knows how sticky those guys get know that's going to be a challenge and a half.

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6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Empty Re: 6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

Post by Sin é on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 5:46 pm

marty2086 wrote:Well when Zebo abandons his position and Earls misses tackles theres little interpretation needed there

This is how Gordon D'Arcy interpreted it:

When the ball is recycled, Ringrose is out of position, while Sean O’Brien could have been be out wider to put pressure on Jones instead of Earls, who then has to scramble over to try and tackle Hogg.

Considering the Scottish fullback’s pace, this proves an impossible task. Despite the initial set-up, Ireland still could have scrambled to save the try. This is probably more frustrating for Andy Farrell than anything else that transpired.

It’s normal enough to leave the last man free in an attack but two men on the outside meant Rob Kearney had to hit the winger and hope the cover caught Hogg.

With two free men out wide Russell can fix most of the Irish defenders with a skip pass. There are examples of Scotland’s wide, wide approach as soon as their outhalf had ball in hand, and Ireland knew they were going to attack this way from studying reels of Glasgow footage and Scotland in November.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-systems-errors-frustrating-but-fixable-1.2967078
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6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Empty Re: 6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 9:34 am

We suffered defensively without Payne and Trimble in the team

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6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February - Page 21 Empty Re: 6N 2017: Scotland v Ireland, 4 February

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