England's 6 Nations Squad

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 9:59 am

Eddie Jones has announced his England squad ahead of the 2017 RBS 6 Nations.

The 34-man squad will train in Portugal between 22-27 January before assembling at Pennyhill Park to prepare for their opening match against France at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 4 February (kick-off 4.50pm, live on ITV).

Jones has named three uncapped players in a squad made up of 20 forwards and 14 backs. Back-row forward Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) is included alongside prop Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby) and back Alex Lozowski (Saracens)

“I’ve been impressed with the three uncapped players named in the squad," said Jones.

"They’re all guys who have great physical capabilities and they all have a desire to improve. With a number of injuries to some key players it’s a great opportunity for them."

There are also returns for James Haskell (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Jack Clifford (Harlequins) and Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs) who were unavailable for selection during the autumn.

“It’s good to welcome back a number of players who weren’t with us during the autumn," said Jones.

"This time last year I said that the long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby. Obviously I’ve been pleased with how the team’s progressing, but there’s still plenty to improve on."

Backroom addition
Joining Jones’ backroom team will be visual awareness coach Dr Sherylle Calder, who will work with the team on a consultancy basis.

Dr Calder, who helps improve players’ peripheral vision, their reaction times and co-ordination, has been involved with two Rugby World Cup winning teams and has worked with a number of high-profile athletes across a multitude of different sports.
“2017 for us is about building really strong foundations for the team and making sure our fundamental skills are improving,” said Jones.

“Part of that is hand-eye co-ordination and our ability to handle the ball adroitly - Dr Sherylle Calder is an expert in that field.

“She has won two gold medals, 2003 with England and 2007 with South Africa, I used her extensively when I coached in Japan and had success with her then. I think she is really going to add an edge to the players’ preparation.”


England Senior 34–man squad for RBS 6 Nations

Forwards

Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21562
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:02 am

Some points:

Four loosehead props named - perhaps reflecting the injury concerns over Marler and Jones doubts over Mullan?
Five second rows - may we see Itoje at 6?
Still just the two scrum halves. Wasps at least will be pleased to have Robson available.
Lozowski makes the cut.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21562
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by propdavid_london on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:09 am

Still no Alex Goode - so does Watson and May cover 15? Hasn't Lozowski played 15 for Sarries recently?
Yarde is a bit of a surprise for me - thought Rokko's form has been pretty good.
Danny Care is lucky but obviously has credit in the bank.

propdavid_london

Posts : 3262
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : London

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:12 am

Interesting and surprising development. Lozowski might well have effectively pushed Alex Goode not just out of the England squad but might lead to him heading to playing in France.

Jones is looking for back up options to Brown, with Haley not included, he has to look at others.

Gutted for Robson. I personally would have taken out Yarde and had Robson.

propdavid in london Alex Lozowski played 15 against Scarlets and seemed to put in a good performance. Just one game though. Will need to prove himself more IMO.


Last edited by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:15 am; edited 2 times in total

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by cascough on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:14 am

Lozowski has played a fair bit at full back, in fact he broke through into the Leeds/Yorkshire team in that position.

cascough

Posts : 936
Join date : 2016-11-10

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:16 am

So Harrison and Williams are selected over Mark Wilson....genuinely laughable!

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21331
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by Welly on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:18 am

Watson, Daly and Loz can play 15 if needs be.

Pretty happy with that team a lot of player who are 24 and under as well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So Harrison and Williams are  selected over Mark Wilson....genuinely laughable!
Please it isn't surpising.

Welly

Posts : 4152
Join date : 2013-12-05

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:20 am

Geordiefalcon I'd be surprised if either Harrison or Williams are in the 23 vs France if Haskell is fit (don't know if he is).

Londontiger think Itoje at 6 is very likely if he stays fit. Might well as use him there if other 2nd rowers are fit.

Obviously good to get some of our best players on the pitch, especially with Robshaw injured.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:21 am

Ah its not surprising but its sheer laughable Welly.

Anyone who can stand and say that Harrison or Williams have played remotely close to Wilsons standards are ignorant and full of it...

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21331
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by Welly on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:33 am

As said Williams and Harrison will be behind
Itoje
Haskell
Wood
Hughes
And prob Clifford.

Prob a case that both are 25 and under and Eddie wants them to have experiance in the camp.

Welly

Posts : 4152
Join date : 2013-12-05

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:38 am

I'd really like to see Clifford or Itoje start at 6. Clifford seems only to be identified as an 8 though.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18881
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by Scottrf on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:46 am

You know you're not short of money when you can afford a peripheral vision trainer.

Saints can't even hire an attack coach Doh

Scottrf

Posts : 14005
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:51 am

Im certainly not going to question Eddie Jones...he's been a revelation for us and knows what he is doing...

I would just like to know what him and Lancaster don't see in Wilson. Maybe its like the Kvesic situation.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21331
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:52 am

Anyway aside from that...what do you think the team will be?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21331
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by Cumbrian on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:54 am

Having a stab at who I think Eddie will pick against France:

01. Ellis Genge
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. George Kruis
05. Maro Itoje
06. James Haskell (assuming he is fit enough)
07. Tom Wood
08. Nathan Hughes

09. Ben Youngs
10. George Ford

11. Jonny May
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jon Joseph
14. Jack Nowell
15. Mike Brown

At loose-head, I know that Genge comes into the squad after initially not being picked but to me he offers more than either Mullan or Catt and I wonder if Eddie was playing a little mind game with him?
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4191
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 36
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by Scottrf on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:55 am

Mullan Hartley Cole
Itoje Kruis
Wood Haskell
Hughes
Youngs Ford
Farrell Joseph
May Nowell
Brown

Although Lawes is in good form and played well in the AIs so wouldn't be surprised to see him.

Scottrf

Posts : 14005
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:00 am

Mullen Hartley Cole
Kruis Launchbury
Itoje Haskell
Hughes
Young Ford
Watson Farrell Joseph Nowell Brown

Genge George Sinckler Lawes Clifford Care Day May

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18881
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:02 am

A lot depends on Haskell....

If hes fit he plays...Itoje at 4/5
If hes not Itoje at 6 and Lawes at 4/5

I think Mullan starts at LH with Genge on the bench. He's still a work in progress...but could be a great impact player from the bench at the moment.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21331
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No9 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:06 am

Headscratch and I thought being current 6 Nations title holders England would pick a strong squad..

Phew lucky there then... Run

No9

Posts : 1524
Join date : 2013-09-20
Location : South Wales

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:08 am

Should be a walk in the park for Wales this year.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18881
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No9 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:13 am

I wouldn't go that far.. Italy look strong, so against them in Rome will be a challenge, but expect to win really..

Then all we have to do is grab loosing bonus points against the others and the title will be ours..

Who said he BP scheme was rubbish..... Erm ... Doh

No9

Posts : 1524
Join date : 2013-09-20
Location : South Wales

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:15 am

Howley currently has a 100% record for 6Ns championships...may well happen!

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18881
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Howley currently has a 100% record for 6Ns championships...may well happen!

Was he not the coach for the opening round defeat in 2013?

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21562
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:26 am

Championship not games record.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18881
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No9 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:27 am

Yep.. that's true. So does Eddie Jones, but we all know that was just luck.. After all unless you win 3 Grand Slams and a title win in a decade, then its just down to luck. Whistle

No9

Posts : 1524
Join date : 2013-09-20
Location : South Wales

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:31 am

No one's done that so we're all just lucky.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18881
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by mid_gen on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd really like to see Clifford or Itoje start at 6. Clifford seems only to be identified as an 8 though.

EJ's said he sees Clifford settling at 8 eventually. But for now his ability experience across the back row and pace off the bench is going to have him nailed on for the bench spot, at least while Vunipola is out and Hughes has the starting spot.

mid_gen

Posts : 453
Join date : 2016-10-13

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by rosbif on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:53 am

Some interesting points for me is who is the backup scrum-half if there is an injury

Does he play Kruis and Itojo and have both Lawes and Launchburt on the bench

Nowel played FB for the U20s so he is spoilt for choice for a backup, Watson/Daly/Nowel

rosbif

Posts : 155
Join date : 2011-11-06
Location : france

http://www.brittanygite.com

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by cascough on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:58 am

i think, certainly against France, we will see a 6:2 split and 2 locks on the bench.

cascough

Posts : 936
Join date : 2016-11-10

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 12:16 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:A lot depends on Haskell....

If hes fit he plays...Itoje at 4/5
If hes not Itoje at 6 and Lawes at 4/5

I think Mullan starts at LH with Genge on the bench. He's still a work in progress...but could be a great impact player from the bench at the moment.

I thought Haskell played 7 for England so Itoje would be replacing Robshaw.

Of course Itoje is a different player but then he would be competing more with Wood.

If Jones puts Itoje at 6 obviously he can play 2 others in the 2nd row - likely Launchbury and Kruis.

Could see something like

4.Kruis
5.Launchbury
6.Itoje
7.Haskell
8.Hughes

19.Lawes
20.Clifford

Funnily enough that 2nd row and backrow would be an amalgamation of Wasps and Saracens players.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No9 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 12:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No one's done that so we're all just lucky.

2005 - 2008 - 2012 plus title 2013 (within 10 years or decade).

...:
I didn't say it had to be the same coach or players... was referring to national side.

Of course others have done in pre 6 Nations... but you have to set a baseline somewhere ...  Whistle

No9

Posts : 1524
Join date : 2013-09-20
Location : South Wales

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 12:46 pm

Sorry thought you were on about a coach not a team.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18881
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 12:52 pm

The lack of game time for Kruis (and indeed doubts as to whether he will be fit by 4th Feb) I struggle to see him starting. Jones has of course stated that it will not matter in Hartley's case, but can you go with 3 forwards (including Haskell) who have yet to start their comeback trail (not counting Haskell's 35 seconds against us Very Happy)?

Mullan, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Hughes is teh pack I expect to start.

Of course I stand almost as much cahnce of winning the Euromillions as getting this call correct.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21562
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by robbo277 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 12:59 pm

I would say that if Marler, Kruis and Haskell are fit, they all start. And if they do, we just are a Robshaw and 2 Vunipolas short of a full pack. Given Marler is proven at this level, he has the option of bringing in Launchbury or Wood for Robshaw (given Itoje's versatility) and Hughes showed up well against Australia, I'd say that isn't that bad.

I think all his talk about Hartley is mind games as well. He'll start and captain.

The backs will be much the same unit that played throughout the Autumn, with the only question being does Nowell get back in ahead of May or not.

The bench is interesting though. Jones has shown a lot of variation in his benches, and the following are all possibilities:

Itoje starts at lock:
5 forward bench with a complete front row, a lock and a back row
5 forward bench with a complete tight 5
6 forward bench with a complete tight 5 and a back row
6 forward bench with a complete front row, a lock and 2 back rows

Itoje starts at flanker:
5 forward bench with a complete front row, a lock and a back row
5 forward bench with a complete front row and 2 back row
6 forward bench with a complete tight 5 and a back row
6 forward bench with a complete front row, a lock and 2 back rows
6 forward bench with a complete front row and a complete back row

The versatility of Itoje (covering lock and 6) and Clifford (covering 6, 7, 8) allow him to mix up his forward choices, and the ability to pick Farrell at 12 and Daly on the bench allows him to drop to a 2 backs bench if he needs to.

I'd like to see Itoje start at 6 with Launchbury and Kruis in the row, if Kruis is fit, and then Lawes and Clifford on the bench. If Kruis isn't fit, I'd bring Lawes into the starting line-up and Wood onto the bench. Not like for like, but it still works.

robbo277

Posts : 4881
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 31
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 1:04 pm

beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:A lot depends on Haskell....

If hes fit he plays...Itoje at 4/5
If hes not Itoje at 6 and Lawes at 4/5

I think Mullan starts at LH with Genge on the bench. He's still a work in progress...but could be a great impact player from the bench at the moment.

I thought Haskell played 7 for England so Itoje would be replacing Robshaw.

Of course Itoje is a different player but then he would be competing more with Wood.

If Jones puts Itoje at 6 obviously he can play 2 others in the 2nd row - likely Launchbury and Kruis.

Could see something like

4.Kruis
5.Launchbury
6.Itoje
7.Haskell
8.Hughes

19.Lawes
20.Clifford

Funnily enough that 2nd row and backrow would be an amalgamation of Wasps and Saracens players.

You would think correct, but Wood played Haskells role in the last game didn't he? And I think Itoje would move to 6. But who knows with Jones...he'll have some plan.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21331
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 1:15 pm

I'd rather England don't play a crocked/unfit pack.

If players like Hartley,Kruis,Haskell etc - aren't match fit then they shouldn't start.

Discounting them something like is what I'd like to see.

1.Mullan
2.George
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Itoje
7.Wood
8.Hughes


beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 1:24 pm

Will be interesting to see if Watson does come straight back in as well.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18881
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 2:20 pm

I an surprised people want to play Kruis and Launchbury together, they are both "the enforcer" types, neither is mobile enough to get across and cover like Itoje or Lawes. They both do their work closer in to the breakdown.

It has to be Kruis and Itoje, Kruis and Lawes, or Launchbury and Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes.

I think it would be a big gamble starting Genge, but I can see him on the bench to play against either a tiring TH or the replacement.

Perm any two of three for the wings, Nowell, Watson or May; not sure about Watsons form, but May and Nowell are tearing up trees at the moment. Daley for a bench spot.

WELL-PAST-IT

Posts : 2335
Join date : 2011-06-01

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 2:43 pm

Really? I don't consider Launchbury and Kruis to be similar players.

I think all 4 locks are slightly different but Kruis and Itoje seem to compliment each other best.

If you play Launchbury and Itoje then who runs the lineout?

Personally I see Launchbury and Itoje as competing and Lawes vs Kruis to who runs the lineout.

If you put Itoje at 6 you still can benefit from Itoje-Kruis partnership, particularly at the breakdown.

E.g. Kruis makes a tackle then Itoje is right there in support to either slow down the ball, win a penalty or make a turnover.

Itoje is also the best of the 4 at winning turnovers (he's better than most if not all English backrowers too) and attacking the opposition lineout. He is not as proficient at running the lineout though.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by robbo277 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 2:55 pm

beshocked wrote:I'd rather England don't play a crocked/unfit pack.

If players like Hartley,Kruis,Haskell etc - aren't match fit then they shouldn't start.

Discounting them something like is what I'd like to see.

1.Mullan
2.George
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Itoje
7.Wood
8.Hughes


I think as long as they're fit enough to play 80 minutes if required, all of Marler, Hartley, Kruis and Haskell are experienced enough to hit the ground running and come straight back into the team.

Haskell is playing this weekend I believe and Hartley wouldn't have stopped training during his ban, so I have no real concerns over either of them. Marler and Kruis will be slightly different as it depends if they can get fit in time, but even if they don't make it we're not a million miles from our first choice pack and they both play in positions where there's cover.

robbo277

Posts : 4881
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 31
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 3:08 pm

robbo277 just hope Jones doesn't get it wrong vs France or it could be costly.

We have cover at hooker and flanker too. Just need to trust the players to perform.

There is no need to rush players back in. It's about believing in the squad. Not trying to rely on individual players too much.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 3:17 pm

beshocked wrote:Really? I don't consider Launchbury and Kruis to be similar players.

I think all 4 locks are slightly different but Kruis and Itoje seem to compliment each other best.

If you play Launchbury and Itoje then who runs the lineout?

Personally I see Launchbury and Itoje as competing and Lawes vs Kruis to who runs the lineout.

If you put Itoje at 6 you still can benefit from Itoje-Kruis partnership, particularly at the breakdown.

E.g. Kruis makes a tackle then Itoje is right there in support to either slow down the ball, win a penalty or make a turnover.

Itoje is also the best of the 4 at winning turnovers (he's better than most if not all English backrowers too) and attacking the opposition lineout. He is not as proficient at running the lineout though.

BS, I am not saying that they are the same, just that they play in the same position. Most lock combos have a bit of a "lump" and an athlete/more mobile unit. Neither Launchbury or Kruis have the ground covering ability of Itoje or Lawes. The "lump" provides the close in cover and tackles around the breakdown, makes the hard yards. The athlete goes wider in defence and covers the 2nd and 3rd channels and likewise in attack, they make use of the space outside to gain that bit more ground. Itoje and Lawes are better lineout stealers than the other two, mostly because they can jump higher with less assistance.

Of course once things get past a few phases, it all gets mixed up with players committed to rucks and mauls etc. and they cover for each other but if you look at all the classic combos of modern times, you find a "lump" and an athlete, unless you are NZ or course, they have two lumps that are also athletes

WELL-PAST-IT

Posts : 2335
Join date : 2011-06-01

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 3:44 pm

They don't play in the same position though.

For England Launchbury has played at 4 just like Itoje whilst Kruis and Lawes have both played at 5.

Looking at last year's 6 nations and AIs.

So basically looking at the positions where each lock has played I am correct.

At Saracens Itoje plays at 4 with Kruis at 5.

Now if you talk about a certain player's roles it gets slightly complicated.

I personally think Lawes and Itoje are more different than you seem to think. Itoje doesn't also try to line up the opposition little men for big hits. I think Lawes relishes playing the enforcer role more whilst Itoje IMO is more of a disruptor.

That's my perception anyhow. Also I believe that our locks are more well rounded than the past which it makes it harder to label a lock - an enforcer/etc.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by thomh on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 4:10 pm

beshocked wrote:
If you put Itoje at 6 you still can benefit from Itoje-Kruis partnership, particularly at the breakdown.

E.g. Kruis makes a tackle then Itoje is right there in support to either slow down the ball, win a penalty or make a turnover.

I always slightly suspect that these partnerships, while theoretically impeccable, exist more in people's imagination that in reality.

Other examples include the idea that picking Lydiate at 6 was the key to Warburton's proficiency at 7 for the same reason, whether or not Lydiate was actually in practice making any of the tackles that led to Warburton's turnovers, and the idea that Foden's presence at 15 was the key to Ashton's try scoring form for England, even though Foden had absolutely no involvement in any of Ashton's England tries except for one short range one against Georgia.

I'd still go for Kruis and Itoje both in the team. Presumably a fractured cheekbone hasn't stopped him running or lifting weights, so it'll just be contact which he's short of. Haskell I'd want to get a couple more games under his belt rather than throwing him straight in, given how long he has been out.

thomh

Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 4:18 pm

thomh only need to watch them play together to see the partnership working.

It's not imagination. It's reality. Would video evidence help change your belief?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ6UU909ozA

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by thomh on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 4:27 pm

beshocked wrote:thomh only need to watch them play together to see the partnership working.

It's not imagination. It's reality. Would video evidence help change your belief?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ6UU909ozA

In theory, yes it would, but that video doesn't contain a single example of a Kruis tackle leading to an Itoje turnover, which is the example you gave. There are two Hartley tackles leading to Itoje turnovers though.

Don't get me wrong, I think you've got two of the top second rows in the hemisphere playing for Saracens and England there, I'm just suspicious of the idea that either of their performances is particularly reliant on the other outside of the lineout.

thomh

Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 4:34 pm

Okay fine - at 2:11 Itoje makes a tackle with Kruis making the turnover. I haven't looked at the rest in massive detail. I am not saying either player is reliant on the other. I am saying they work well together.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by thomh on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 4:44 pm

beshocked wrote:Okay fine - at 2:11 Itoje makes a tackle with Kruis making the turnover. I haven't looked at the rest in massive detail. I am not saying either player is reliant on the other. I am saying they work well together.


Actually Farrell makes that tackle - Biggar (I think) offloaded out of Itoje's initial hit - but that's beside the point. Itoje and Kruis were both performing out of their skin at the time so there are bound to be passages of play where they both make important contributions.

I'd agree in general that they have complimentary skill sets - we're definitely better off having both Kruis and Itoje than if we had two of Kruis or two of Itoje - and they'd both be in my team anyway, so in a sense it's a moot point.

thomh

Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by beshocked on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 4:46 pm

Gets slightly more complicated if Kruis isn't fit.

In that scenario I'd have Lawes-Launchbury with Itoje at 6.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by B91212 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 5:57 pm

Didn't Lawes and Kruis play together in the last 2 autumn games after Launchbury was suspended? Lawes can maybe called a 4.5 then Very Happy (sorry, wanted to get that one in for a while)

Assuming Kruis is classed as fit and selected then I think Lawes starting will depend on Haskell being classed as good to go or not. My thought is that EJ and Gustard like an aggressive defender who leads the defensive line speed. Haskell does it when fit. In the 3rd test in Aus Lawes came off the bench to replace Harrison after 30 mins, not Launchbury who was also on the bench. Lawes has started every game since that Haskell has missed including all 4 games in the autumn series.

So if Kruis does start and Itoje is at 6 then I think it will be a case of Lauchnbury and Haskell starting or Wood and Lawes starting. Based on who is fit I would like to see

Genge, Hartley, Cole
Launchbury, Lawes
Wood, Hughes, Itoje

George, Mullen, Sinkler, Kruis, Haskell, Clifford (6/2 split)

Anyone else concerned about Mullen? He's looked pretty shakey in the scrum for Wasps in the last month, even when Johnson and Launcgbury or Symons have been packing down with him. I would have put Catt on the bench if he had more experience.

B91212

Posts : 1691
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Canada

Back to top Go down

England's 6 Nations Squad Empty Re: England's 6 Nations Squad

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum