6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February

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Post by Guest on Sat 21 Jan 2017, 1:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

 6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February - Page 2 Italee10 6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February - Page 2 Wales_11
ITALY v WALES
5 February 2017
15:00 CET (14:00 GMT)
Stadio Olimpico, Rome

Live on DMAX, ITV, RTE, FR2, S4C, BBC (H)

Referee: JP Doyle (England)
Touch judges: Johnny Lacey (Ireland) & Craig Maxwell-Keys (England)
TMO: Rowan Kitt (England)

A. Head to Head

24 Played 24
21 Won 2
1 Drawn 1
2 Lost 21
815 Points 400

B. Recent Form

19 March 2016
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
67 – 14 to Wales

5 September 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 19 to Wales

21 March 2015
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
20 – 61 to Wales

1 February 2014
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

23 February 2013
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
9 – 26 to Wales

10 March 2012
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
24 – 3 to Wales

C. Teams

ITALY
 6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February - Page 2 Italy10
15-Edoardo Padovani; 14-Giulio Bisegni, 13-Tommaso Benvenuti, 12-Luke McLean 11-Giovanbattista Venditti; 10-Carlo Canna, 9-Edoardo Gori; 1-Andrea Lovotti, 2-Ornel Gega, 3-Lorenzo Cittadini, 4-Marco Fuser, 5-George Biagi, 6-Abraham Steyn, 7-Maxime Mata M'Banda, 8-Sergio Parisse (captain)

Replacements: 16-Leonardo Ghiraldini, 17-Sami Panico, 18-Pietro Ceccarelli, 19-Joshua Furno, 20-Francesco Minto, 21-Giorgio Bronzini, 22-Tommaso Allan, 23-Michele Campagnaro

WALES
 6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February - Page 2 Sheepy10
15-Leigh Halfpenny; 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams; 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Nicky Smith, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Samson Lee, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones (captain); 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric, 8-Ross Moriarty

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Rob Evans, 18-Tomas Francis, 19-Cory Hill, 20-James King, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts


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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 26 Jan 2017, 10:29 am

miaow wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Calm down. It's not my fault I misinterpreted something quite straightforward to understand.

OK

It's all fairly easy to digest. What does proven mean? Beyond all reasonable doubt. What is Cory Hill doing well (in a Scott Andrews manner, i.e. not a good Pro12 player who stepped up and didn't look particularly out of place) against fairly weak (certainly underperforming) international opposition in his first four Test caps? Evidence, and evidence that is mitigated by circumstances and context.

There's a big difference between someone doing alright in their first few caps, and them being 'proven' reliable and up to the task against the 'usual' standard of international opposition. But thanks for trying Luckless. You could have hidden it better by addressing some of the other points in what was a reasoned and well constructured fairly substantial message, which is surely what we're here for. If you do, it gives the impression that you're trying to engage instead of dangling a fishing rod off into the ether then... Wink

It was certainly fairly substantial. OK

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Post by RiscaGame on Thu 26 Jan 2017, 11:03 am

laughing

Why write one word, when a thousand will do?

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Post by miaow on Thu 26 Jan 2017, 1:31 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It was certainly fairly substantial. OK

It takes a special someone to take their own deficiencies in comprehension as something to wave about as a banner of pride. Why are you drawing attention to the fact that you can't understand fairly simple things? Erm

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 26 Jan 2017, 3:26 pm

miaow wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
miaow wrote:AWJ and...Charteris? Jake Ball's been playing well, but seems to be overlooked, in favour of Cory Hill who- although he performed well in the Autumn- is a long way from a proven Test level player.

If Cory Hill 'performed well in the autumn' - at Test level - then doesn't that make him a 'proven Test level player'?

Not to my mind. He did "well" (i.e. didn't show himself up on the step up in standard, rather than playing "Test level well") against weak versions of Japan, Argentina, and South Africa. He was solid. Did the basics. Carried straight, maintained the ball, and looked like he was relatively in control and not flusteed, but did nothing miraculous to suggest that once the novelty and focus of winning his first caps subsides, he is talented enough to maintain and (more importantly) improve on those first showings, because frankly playing for Wales should mean you're capable of more.

To me, a proven Test level player is someone who doesn't look out of place against England or Ireland in the Six Nations, or the SANZAR teams, i.e. teams that are equal to or better than us. Perhaps there's some ambiguity behind my phrasing, but there are "Test matches" and there are Test matches.

Cory Hill needs to play enough games and look adequate against proper opposition for Wales (i.e. like Jake Ball has done) to be considered a reliable Test match player for Wales; at least by my definition, you of course are welcome to have your own. As someone who doesn't exactly stand out at Pro12 level, until he's done this, I think it's a fair thing to say I'm not sure if he's that standard, at least not yet.

Talk about nitpicking though. Jebus.

You acknowledged yourself that you hadn't made yourself clear.

You also felt the need to insult me just for pointing it out.

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Post by RiscaGame on Thu 26 Jan 2017, 5:20 pm

So although not relevant for this game, the roof will remain a talking point before every game as Howley has had his request turned down.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Fri 27 Jan 2017, 10:30 pm

RiscaGame wrote:So although not relevant for this game, the roof will remain a talking point before every game as Howley has had his request turned down.




So he should. After all it takes two to tango.( there are 2 teams ) playing hear and not just Wales. It should be a plaid on an level playing field and no advantage to either team.

And as i have said before Rugby is an "OUT DOOR SPORT" not an indoor one.

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri 27 Jan 2017, 11:21 pm

Good grief

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Post by Guest on Sat 28 Jan 2017, 11:41 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:So although not relevant for this game, the roof will remain a talking point before every game as Howley has had his request turned down.




So he should. After all it takes two to tango.( there are 2 teams ) playing hear and not just Wales. It should be a plaid on an level playing field and no advantage to either team.

And as i have said before Rugby is an "OUT DOOR SPORT" not an indoor one.


Let's play at neutral venues then, if we want to level the playing field and get rid of (home) advantage.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 28 Jan 2017, 3:49 pm

I have noticed that Owen Williams as been released by the Welsh squad to play for Tigers today.

Does that mean he is no longer in the Welsh squad for the 6ns? or is it just for this game

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Post by Guest on Sat 28 Jan 2017, 6:38 pm

Just this game. Rhys Webb is another one who has been released to play this weekend I believe.

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Post by RiscaGame on Sat 28 Jan 2017, 7:55 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I have noticed that Owen Williams as been released by the Welsh squad to play for Tigers today.

Does that mean he is no longer in the Welsh squad for the 6ns? or is it just for this game

Blinking heck. No longer in the Welsh squad? Do you have no concept of how international squads work? Regardless of what other teams do, I am willing to wager nobody has been cut from a squad unless they've been naughty.

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Post by RiscaGame on Sat 28 Jan 2017, 7:55 pm

Griff wrote:Just this game. Rhys Webb is another one who has been released to play this weekend I believe.

Kudos for your patience.

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Post by Guest on Sat 28 Jan 2017, 9:01 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
Griff wrote:Just this game. Rhys Webb is another one who has been released to play this weekend I believe.

Kudos for your patience.

Laugh

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Post by wayne on Sat 28 Jan 2017, 9:06 pm

Griff wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
Griff wrote:Just this game. Rhys Webb is another one who has been released to play this weekend I believe.

Kudos for your patience.

Laugh

Don't forget Rhodri boys, now that really is something to laugh about Very Happy

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sun 29 Jan 2017, 9:54 am

miaow wrote:Is the back row settled? I think we've got a few options and combinations, all pretty exciting:

6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Moriarty/Faletau

6. Moriarty
7. Tipuric/Warburton
8. Faletau

Don't forget the new latest love child of the WOL in Young the younger. Surely he must start now at 6 or 7, well according to them he should.

As for team against Italy and given that Faleatu is likely to be out I'd go for

Evans Owens Lee
AWJ Charteris
Warburton Moriarty Tipuric

Webb S Davies
Hewitt Sc Williams JD Halfpenny

Li Williams

Smith Dacey Francis Ball Young G Davies O Williams Roberts

Of course that is nowhere near what Howler is likely to pick certainly not in the backs.
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Post by miaow on Sun 29 Jan 2017, 11:07 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You acknowledged yourself that you hadn't made yourself clear.

You also felt the need to insult me just for pointing it out.

You've repeatedly WUM'd on this thread, writing one pedantic, smug, non constructive comment after another, primarily aimed at me, to deliberately derail any positive discussion.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You decided not to take it. I then explained why what you said was stupid, as apparently- to you- it "didn't make sense".

Honestly, if there's any insult, you did all the leg work yourself...


Last edited by miaow on Sun 29 Jan 2017, 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by miaow on Sun 29 Jan 2017, 11:21 pm

I like the backline bedford. I'm not sure I'd pick Hewitt, but then if he's in the squad, he should be good enough to play.

Sadly, I think Wales' main issue is going to be mental again, primarily confidence, and as such, I don't think they can afford to deviate too much from what they already know. If it gets messy, balls being dropped etc., they need to be able to rely on Biggar's boot in open play. But Sam Davies needs to get game time, and more than just the last five minutes. The rest of the backline is spot on, although not sure if Roberts is the best option at #23, maybe someone more versatile?

In the pack, I'd have Baldwin over Dacey on the bench (maybe Baldwin over Owens to start even), I don't rate Dacey at all, not good enough to have been capped for Wales in my opinion. I think the rest is a good pick, starting and bench.

I haven't seen enough of Thomas Young. Owen Williams is vastly overrated and lauded by that website/paper, but there seems to be some substance behind Young. Get him capped, get him up to speed.

Frankly, the four back row players being Tipuric, Moriarty, Warburton, and a new, highly rated flanker playing at a high domestic level is pretty encouraging, regardless of what number they have on their back. That may be part of the danger though. Is Warburton a good enough 'natural' 6 to play alongside Tipuric going into this tournament? Can Tipuric affect the tackle area like Warburton does at 7 when not stealing the ball? Can Moriarty switch from 6 to 8? This is where Faletau comes in for me. As good as it sounds in theory having all these interchangeable options, if we're not up to speed in time for the England game in terms of minor points of positioning etc.- and particularly around the breakdown for the back row- we'll get taken apart up the middle and around the fringes again.

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 12:24 am

Italy is a must win and by no means is it guaranteed this year. Wales whole campaign rests on winning Sunday so we have some momentum to take on England with. Beat them at home, which i see as entirely possible, and the tourney is wide open.

I think we need to be somewhat conservative in selection so while i think S Davies needs longer spells you need to start with G Davies and Biggar. Scott and JD2 in the centre with a North, Liam and Half, back 3. Liam at 15. Webb, Doc and Davies as replacements.

Up front it has to be Evans, Ken and Lee, AWJ and Charteris, Sam, Tipuric and Moriarty.
bench of ?, Balders, Francis, King and I'd actually get Young out there soon as.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 10:52 am

miaow wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You acknowledged yourself that you hadn't made yourself clear.

You also felt the need to insult me just for pointing it out.

You've repeatedly WUM'd on this thread, writing one pedantic, smug, non constructive comment after another, primarily aimed at me, to deliberately derail any positive discussion.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You decided not to take it. I then explained why what you said was stupid, as apparently- to you- it "didn't make sense".

Honestly, if there's any insult, you did all the leg work yourself...

Other readers can see for themselves how it happened. OK

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Post by miaow on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 10:59 am

Haha, yeah, they can.

Anything to say about Wales or Italy, Luckless?

Or are you going to try another insult where you admit to not being able to read and think properly again?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 11:16 am

There isn't much to say until the squad is announced.


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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 11:20 am

I missed Scrum V yesterday - is it true that Jiffy suggested Dan Biggar at 12?

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Post by PenfroPete on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 11:35 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I missed Scrum V yesterday - is it true that Jiffy suggested Dan Biggar at 12?

It is Lucky
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Post by PenfroPete on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 11:37 am

In other news - Does anyone need tickets for this, my club have a pair of tickets @ £55 each. If interested please message me ASAP as I'm travelling to Heathrow tomorrow evening and got to Italy on Wednesday
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 11:45 am

PenfroPete wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I missed Scrum V yesterday - is it true that Jiffy suggested Dan Biggar at 12?

It is Lucky

It won't happen, surely? Has Biggar played 12 for the Ospreys?

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 11:46 am

Oh Wales have the warm-up team this year. Wink

Well I suppose it makes up for ban on blanket roof closing. Run

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Post by Guest on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 12:00 pm

SecretFly wrote:Oh Wales have the warm-up team this year. Wink

Well I suppose it makes up for ban on blanket roof closing. Run


Yeah, blanket roof closing. For 2 out of 5 games Very Happy

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 2:10 pm

I updated your OP a little Grifty.  Whistle
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Post by Guest on Mon 30 Jan 2017, 2:22 pm

George Carlin wrote:I updated your OP a little Grifty.  Whistle


Why?! What was wrong with it Whistle

(but thanks!)

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Post by bsando on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 1:24 pm

Really intrigued about this game. I get the feeling from Parisse that Jacques Bunel had a rather negative impact on the Italian game and that Connor O'shea is bringing back a sense of pride and ambition to Italian rugby whilst also keeping things realistic.

I'm interested to see if Italy can make life tough for Wales, although I would definitely expect Wales to win this one with a winning BP.

However, could be a good opportunity to surprise the rugby world if they can play a full 80 with renewed confidence.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 1:34 pm

bsando wrote:Really intrigued about this game. I get the feeling from Parisse that Jacques Bunel had a rather negative impact on the Italian game and that Connor O'shea is bringing back a sense of pride and ambition to Italian rugby whilst also keeping things realistic.

I'm interested to see if Italy can make life tough for Wales, although I would definitely expect Wales to win this one with a winning BP.

However, could be a good opportunity to surprise the rugby world if they can play a full 80 with renewed confidence.

Oh here we go. They're all at it. Eddie has admitted he chants "Make England Great Again" to his troops. And now Conor is at it? "Make Italy Great Again".

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Post by miaow on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 2:12 pm

I reckon it's going to be a really low standard of rugby. Can see two tries to Wales, one or two for Italy. Italy missing kicks/not capitalising on field position gives Wales the win.

I thought Brunel had Italy playing half decently. He wasn't helped by the way the Italian regions were completely devastated by the European power play that happened a few years ago. As for Parisse, I felt his performances went backward significantly, trying to take on too much of the mantle (taking dropped goals to win games for instance) to the detriment of the team and his own performance. Whether that was because they were poorly coached, it could well be. I think it was right to make the change in coach though. They suffered some big defeats towards the end and were treading water a bit, but still, it's a difficult task considering the domestic challenges for Italy.


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Post by bsando on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 2:14 pm

SecretFly wrote:
bsando wrote:Really intrigued about this game. I get the feeling from Parisse that Jacques Bunel had a rather negative impact on the Italian game and that Connor O'shea is bringing back a sense of pride and ambition to Italian rugby whilst also keeping things realistic.

I'm interested to see if Italy can make life tough for Wales, although I would definitely expect Wales to win this one with a winning BP.

However, could be a good opportunity to surprise the rugby world if they can play a full 80 with renewed confidence.

Oh here we go.  They're all at it.  Eddie has admitted he chants "Make England Great Again" to his troops.  And now Conor is at it?  "Make Italy Great Again".

 6N 2017: Italy v Wales, 5 February - Page 2 Italy_20blue_grande

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 2:25 pm

If Italy hadn't lost to Tonga the week after SA, I'd have backed them for this. Now I expect Wales to win an ugly game (but for this to be their only win all tournament).

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 2:33 pm

Apparently Faletau and Charteris are out (South Wales Argus). I thought I had read that Faletau was being tested Wednesday.

So it's obvious what the backrow will be and it might present an opportunity for Young to get a cap off the bench. It also could/should mean Cory Hill will bench now and Ball will see his form rewarded with a start.

Also, I have just noticed that Ashton Hewitt has not been able to train at all with Team Wales, due to the head injury he sustained against Ospreys on NYD.

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Post by Guest on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 2:47 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Apparently Faletau and Charteris are out (South Wales Argus). I thought I had read that Faletau was being tested Wednesday.

So it's obvious what the backrow will be and it might present an opportunity for Young to get a cap off the bench. It also could/should mean Cory Hill will bench now and Ball will see his form rewarded with a start.

Also, I have just noticed that Ashton Hewitt has not been able to train at all with Team Wales, due to the head injury he sustained against Ospreys on NYD.


Perhaps for the best, in a way? I hadn't been following their club appearances much but Peter Jackson pointed out on Scrum V on Sunday that Faletau has only had half an hour game time (I know he's been injured) and Charteris not much more. Or the other way round. Either way, those are the sort of players that Wales tend to just throw into the team/squad if fit regardless of form or game time. Might mean we have to pick players who've been playing well week in week out.

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 3:14 pm

It is for the best, yes. Even if they're ready for next week they shouldn't start. Didn't really know about Charteris' problem, but seemingly Faletau couldn't have fully recovered from his injury before the SA game and thus injured himself the week after (judging by what the Argus said). Clearly shouldn't risk aggravating any injury any way.



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Post by Gwlad on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 3:32 pm

expect cracknell to get the bench as we already have two 7s on the park.

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Post by munkian on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 3:39 pm

Griff wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:Apparently Faletau and Charteris are out (South Wales Argus). I thought I had read that Faletau was being tested Wednesday.

So it's obvious what the backrow will be and it might present an opportunity for Young to get a cap off the bench. It also could/should mean Cory Hill will bench now and Ball will see his form rewarded with a start.

Also, I have just noticed that Ashton Hewitt has not been able to train at all with Team Wales, due to the head injury he sustained against Ospreys on NYD.


Perhaps for the best, in a way?  I hadn't been following their club appearances much but Peter Jackson pointed out on Scrum V on Sunday that Faletau has only had half an hour game time (I know he's been injured) and Charteris not much more.  Or the other way round.  Either way, those are the sort of players that Wales tend to just throw into the team/squad if fit regardless of form or game time.  Might mean we have to pick players who've been playing well week in week out.

Big shame for him, could've really excelled off the bench against Italy I feel.
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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 3:55 pm

Gwlad wrote:expect cracknell to get the bench as we already have two 7s on the park.

I did wonder whether King might get in ahead of Hill, for 6 cover too.

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Post by Gwlad on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 7:05 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
Gwlad wrote:expect cracknell to get the bench as we already have two 7s on the park.

I did wonder whether King might get in ahead of Hill, for 6 cover too.

good call, covers lock too so i'd say yes though i think the player who could have the most impact is Young. Can Cracknell play 8?

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Post by Gwlad on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 8:05 pm

Going with this i expect:

Evans
Ken
Lee
AWJ
Jake
Sam
Tipuric
Moriarty
Webb
Biggar
North
Scott
JD2
Liam
Half

Smith, Baldwin, Francis, Hill, Cracknell/Young, G Davies, S Davies, Doc.

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 9:00 pm

I think that's the 15. Maybe Baldwin for Owens, but that wouldn't be my choice.

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 9:13 pm

Be good if they did the team tomorrow, now both the doubts are confirmed as out.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 10:06 pm

I'm worried about JD2 in the centre, he has not been on form this season at all. He's starting to look like Cuthbert, trying too hard to get his mojo back. personally I think I'd go Owen Williams at inside centre, Scott outside him, and Foxy on the bench. Then bring him on, when the get is opened up a bit, and hope it helps him regain some form/confidence
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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 10:08 pm

I don't want Foxy at centre, but it's inevitable. Howley doesn't have the brass to play Williams at 12. Pure and simple.

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Post by Guest on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 10:23 pm

Showing my ignorance now but has Owen Williams played much at 12 for Leicester? I'd be happy to give it a go. I agree that JD2 is looking poor. Centre generally is a real area of concern.

If not Owen Williams 12 and Scott Williams 13 (because Howley hasn't got the kahunas), which would be worse:

Roberts 12 and Scott Willaims 13, or
Scott Williams 12 and JD2 13?

A wider issue here in my opinion is the lack of experimentation in the autumn. I've droned on about this enough previously, but it's a huge thing. If we don't experiment in the autumn and try some new combos and players (e.g. Owen Williams as a centre) then we're perhaps forced to play out of form players like JD2 or Roberts, or we have to experiment in the 6 Nations instead which is ridiculous. Experimentation has to take place sometime. I'd much prefer it wasn't in the premier annual international tournament (in the NH).

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Post by Gwlad on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 11:40 pm

It would be great to see Owen at 12 but he won't start it that way, of course we may see either Sam Davies OR Owen on the bench; if the plan is a footballing 12 then v Italy is the time to at least experiment 2nd half. Can Sam Davies play 15?

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 31 Jan 2017, 11:42 pm

Doesn't Sam play 15 a fair bit, when Biggar is picked for the Os?

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Post by Gwlad on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 12:50 am

In which case we could have Sam and Owen on the bench and have even greater options. Wings covered by Half or Liam, Centres by Owen, FB by Half, Liam or Sam and 10 by Owen and Sam. Bye bye Doc.

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