If the Lions had quotas...... pick your 40 man squad (10 from each nation)

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Post by Guest on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 12:13 pm

At the risk of being booed and heckled for starting another Lions squad thread, I thought I'd take a slightly different approach.  I've seen debates on here about the problems with quotas in SA rugby, but I've also seen people suggesting quotas for the Lions to ensure equal representation, equal interest in the tour, etc.  So, if the Lions were to pick a nice round squad size of 40 and were to take an even number from each nation, who would you pick?  I'm hoping this might help us to show our acknowledgement for some of the talent in other nations rather than always picking our own guys and fighting their corner.  In reality we'd want the Lions to pick the best players available, but this is all subjective so we end up with a coach (like Gats) displaying national bias, familiarity bias, etc., etc.  Can we pick a really competitive squad if we're forced to choose 10 from each nation, no more and no less.

Obviously this is just the squad.  We're not picking the starting team yet.  I'd always hope that the match day 15/22 comes from form and performances shown in the warm up games on tour anyway, rather than being decided beforehand (although I'm sure that has not been the case in the past), so let's just assume these picks all have a chance of making the starting team.  A clean slate.

Over to you!


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Post by BamBam on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 12:29 pm

I like it

Eng - 10, Scot - 10, Ire - 10, Wal - 10

Props
Vunipola, Cole, Nel, Dickinson, McGrath, Furlong, Jenkins

Hookers
Hartley, Best, George

Locks
Itoje, Kruis, J Gray, Henderson, AWJ


Back row
Vunipola, Hardie, Stander, SOB, Faletau, Tipuric, Warburton


Scrum half
Laidlaw, Murray, Webb


Fly half
Farrell, Russell, Sexton


Centre
JJ, Jones, Dunbar, Henshaw, JD2


Back 3
Watson, Seymour, Hogg, Zebo, Williams, North, Halfpenny

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Post by George Carlin on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 1:45 pm

I'm not sure that we have 10 good players.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:06 pm

I think BamBam has probably nailed it. If I had to shoehorn 10 of my country folk into the Lions squad, the 10 selected by BamBam would be about right.

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:13 pm

the issue with quotas is they need to be continued to the match day squad and starting 15. You're then looking at making up a team of at least three players from each country! Now that's not easy!
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Post by BamBam on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:26 pm

I might be in trouble saying this .. but I found it far harder to pick 10 Welsh players than 10 Scots Run

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:27 pm

BamBam wrote:I might be in trouble saying this .. but I found it far harder to pick 10 Welsh players than 10 Scots Run

I did see that Jenkins and North had made it.....

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Post by TJ on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:28 pm

George Carlin wrote:I'm not sure that we have 10 good players.

I would agree - not ten really worth going on the lions

Lions quality scots
J Gray, Hogg, Seymour, Nel,
Nearly there
Dunbar, Taylor, Russell, R Gray
Not really but almost
Barclay, Dickinson

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Post by BamBam on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:30 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
BamBam wrote:I might be in trouble saying this .. but I found it far harder to pick 10 Welsh players than 10 Scots Run

I did see that Jenkins and North had made it.....

Where's that barrel scraping icon

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Post by majesticimperialman on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:42 pm

I do not think there would be 10 Welsh players. Gethin Jenkins? really?

I would certainly play Joseph in the cebtre rather than JD2.


And would probably play Nowel rather than North in the back 3.

Will Faletau make the squad? Same with Billy V will he be fit enough?

I think in the back row of the scrum Robshaw must surely be in with a chance? but then again being out of the 6ns, will he be fit enough to make the selection?


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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:45 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I do not think there would be 10 Welsh players. Gethin Jenkins? really?

I would certainly play Joseph in the cebtre rather than JD2.


And would probably play Noel rather than North in the back 3.

Will Faletau make the squad? Same with Billy V will he be fit enough?

I think in the back row of the scrum Robshaw must surely be in with a chance? but then again being out of the 6ns, will he be fit enough to make the selection?




1) Read the original post

2) As above.

3) Edmonds?

4) Why wouldn't Faletau? He's in contention for Italy.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 2:52 pm

RiscaGame

I thought Faletau was a doubt for the 6ns. due to injury.

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Post by Guest on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 3:28 pm

OK, so I need to add some more to the lists below. I've probably picked some guys who are/will be injured. I find that it's a bit easier with your own players due to familiarity.

I also appreciate that I've probably got too many in the same positions here, so should have taken BamBam's approach instead.

Wales:
Webb, Biggar, North (meh), Halfpenny, Faletau, Liam Williams, AWJ, Tipuric, Warburton, Lee (?!)

Scotland:
J Gray, Nel, Russell, Hogg, Dunbar, Seymour, Laidlaw, Bennett, Wilson,

England:
B Vunipola, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell, Youngs, Cole, Hartley, Joseph,

Ireland:
Henshaw, Sexton, Murray, Stander, Heaslip, Best, Zebo, Payne, O'Brien,

Harder than I thought. But even with 8 or 9 of players from each country I can see the makings of an excellent team there. It all depends on how well they train and gel on tour though. There may be some good working relationships formed, and perhaps some great partnerships on paper that do not develop as their personalities clash, leading to an 'outsider' or non-favourite getting a short instead.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 3:42 pm

I'll comment fully later with player's I'd pick from other nations, but if I had to put forward 10 England players right now (without thinking about the squad as a whole), I'd probably go with:

Mako Vunipola, Hartley, Launchbury, Itoje, Billy Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph, Watson.

Cole's form has been a little sub-par for England over the last 12 months (although that might be compared to his high standard).

We've got plenty of second row/flanker candidates but I think those two are the outstanding individuals from our list.

I've picked our 8/9/10/12/13 as a block. While I'd say there are strong arguments for Faletau at 8, and Murray, Sexton and Henshaw in the backline, you can at least retain some of the partnerships that have functioned well for England over the last 12 months (e.g. with the same squad you could end up with Vunipola and Youngs with Sexton at 10 and a mixed centre partnership, or Ford and Farrell at 10/12 with Faletau at 8, Murray at 9 and Henshaw at 13).

Then with one back three choice, I think Watson is again our outstanding player in what is a pretty good field, although possibly lacking in top quality players.

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Post by Guest on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 3:52 pm

Forgot about Watson! Yes, I'd add him to my England selection.


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Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 3:55 pm

How many players are the All Blacks allowed have in their squad?

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Post by Guest on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 3:57 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:How many players are the All Blacks allowed have in their squad?

I know you're probably being sarcastic or something, but I'll play along anayway: as many as they want. There are no limits on squad size, as far as I know, only limits on match day squad size (23).

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 4:00 pm

Griff wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:How many players are the All Blacks allowed have in their squad?

I know you're probably being sarcastic or something, but I'll play along anayway: as many as they want.  There are no limits on squad size, as far as I know, only limits on match day squad size (23).

 Jeez Griff lighten up.

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Post by Guest on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 4:01 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Griff wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:How many players are the All Blacks allowed have in their squad?

I know you're probably being sarcastic or something, but I'll play along anayway: as many as they want.  There are no limits on squad size, as far as I know, only limits on match day squad size (23).

 Jeez Griff lighten up.

Eh?! I just didn't get your post to be honest. It didn't make sense as a question! You'll have to spell it out to me.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 4:05 pm

Griff wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Griff wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:How many players are the All Blacks allowed have in their squad?

I know you're probably being sarcastic or something, but I'll play along anayway: as many as they want.  There are no limits on squad size, as far as I know, only limits on match day squad size (23).

 Jeez Griff lighten up.

Eh?!  I just didn't get your post to be honest.  It didn't make sense as a question!  You'll have to spell it out to me.

 Dont be so quick to judge then.

 If each nation is allowed 10 players for the Lions tour does that apply to New Zealand as well?

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Post by Scottrf on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 4:08 pm

Go for it. If you could only play 10 players, which would you pick?

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 4:23 pm

I think the sensible way to go about this is to first pick players from the weakest nation, then next weakest, up to the strongest, trying to keep balance in mind as much as possible throughout. However, there are also a few players who are must picks because they offer much more than the alternatives in their position, so I'm going to pick a few "must-haves" up front. I think at the moment you'd have to rank
England
Ireland
Wales
Scotland
in that order, though not a lot in some of it.

For simplicity, and as I'm not 100% where some of the injuries are at, I'm going to assume everyone's fit.

So, must-haves:
B. Vunipola
C. Murray
Hogg

That's it, actually. There are a few more you'd make a compelling case, but those three are the ones I see as being clearly the best in their position in the NH. So that leaves 9 Scots, 10 Welsh, 9 Irish and 9 English to pick. For balance, I'm going to pick in the following order: 6 Scots, 7 Welsh, 4 Irish, 4 English, 3 Scots, 3 Welsh, 5 Irish, 5 English.

So, 6 Scots:
J. Gray, Nel, Seymour, Russell, Dunbar, Taylor.

7 Welsh:
AWJ, Tipuric, Faletau, Lee, Webb, S. Williams, L. Williams.

4 Irish:
Best, Stander, Henshaw, McGrath

4 English:
Itoje, Watson, Joseph, Farrell

3 Scots:
H. Watson, Laidlaw, Dickinson

3 Welsh:
Warburton, North, Halfpenny

Taking stock of where we're at, we have: 2LH, 2TH, 1HK, 3SR, 4FL (only one BS, though Itoje can play there), 2N8 (plus Stander who can play there), 3SH, 2FH, 5C (decent mix of IC and OC), 3W (L. Williams can cover), 3FB.

You therefore need one LH, one TH, two HK, two SR, one BS, 1FH, 1W and one other.
Obvious choices: Vunipola for TH, Hartley and George for HK, Henderson and Kruis for SR, that means only one more English, so I'll go with Robshaw, as already have Stander at BS. Then I'm looking for an Irish TH (Furlong), FH (could be Sexton or Jackson, will go with the former for now), Wing (going with Zebo even if he's playing FB at the mo), and one other wildcard. Going to pick Payne, who I think is a really good player.

So, the full squad:
McGrath, Dickinson, Vunipola, Best, Hartley, George, Nel, Lee, Furlong, Itoje, Gray, Henderson, AWJ, Kruis, Stander, Robshaw, Warburton, Tipuric, Watson, Vunipola, Faletau (Forwards).
Murray, Laidlaw, Webb, Russell, Sexton, Farrell, Dunbar, Henshaw, S. Williams, Taylor, Joseph, Payne, Watson, North, Zebo, Seymour, Hogg, L. Williams, Halfpenny.


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Post by Guest on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 4:45 pm

Job done, Mad for Chelsea. A good methodology. Now email it to Gatland and we're good to go!

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Post by cascough on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 4:56 pm

Griff wrote:Job done, Mad for Chelsea. A good methodology. Now email it to Gatland and we're good to go!

I know this thread is for fun, but I'll pose this question...

Would people like to see this methodology used?

I don't care about the nationality of the individuals, I just want them to be the best. They are representing the UK and Ireland, of which I'm part of.

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 4:58 pm

Whatever happens, this place will be in meltdown when the squad is picked. boxing

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Post by TJ on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 5:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Whatever happens, this place will be in meltdown when the squad is picked. boxing

Yup

Someone will cry "bias". Someone else will say wrong selection / tactics, somone will cry and someone will sulk 'cos their fave is not picked

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Post by Guest on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 5:22 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Griff wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Griff wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:How many players are the All Blacks allowed have in their squad?

I know you're probably being sarcastic or something, but I'll play along anayway: as many as they want.  There are no limits on squad size, as far as I know, only limits on match day squad size (23).

 Jeez Griff lighten up.

Eh?!  I just didn't get your post to be honest.  It didn't make sense as a question!  You'll have to spell it out to me.

 Dont be so quick to judge then.

 If each nation is allowed 10 players for the Lions tour does that apply to New Zealand as well?

Thanks. If you'd put that the first time I would have understood. And got the joke. Smile

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 9:29 pm

cascough wrote:
Griff wrote:Job done, Mad for Chelsea. A good methodology. Now email it to Gatland and we're good to go!

I know this thread is for fun, but I'll pose this question...

Would people like to see this methodology used?

I don't care about the nationality of the individuals, I just want them to be the best. They are representing the UK and Ireland, of which I'm part of.

Anyone have Gats's email address? Run

No I don't think I would want this methodology used cascough. Like a few others on here I would probably rather the head coach wasn't also head coach of one of the home nations at the time, as it's almost certain to lead to accusations of bias somewhere down the line, but to impose equal representation from all home nations seems a bit silly. Quotas would also lead some of the players to wonder if they'd really been picked on merit.

I guess it also depends on what you think should be the ethos of the Lions. Is it win at all costs? Or more about the fun element of combining the best from the home nations and seeing what happens. Without wishing to get into a long debate, the Lions do feel rather like a relic from the amateur age at times, and I'm still not entirely sure they have their place in the professional era...

Personally, I think Gats wound quite a few fans and probably some players up the wrong way last time around. Most of the Scots picked had a token feel about them, and too many of the players never got a fair crack of the whip. Oddly I almost feel the fact they won made it worse, since it vindicated Gats's decisions to a point, whereas at least when Woodward's Lions were thrashed people could unanimously point the blame.

Anyway, I disgress. There are plenty of more serious Lions threads out there, this one's meant to be a bit more light-hearted.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sun 29 Jan 2017, 9:59 am

Quotas would be only way 10 Welsh would get on the plane given current form but if that was the way my 10 would be:

Owens AWJ Warburton Faletau Tipuric Webb Liam Williams Halfpenny and North (meh)

See even struggling to find 10,
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Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 29 Jan 2017, 11:02 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
cascough wrote:
Griff wrote:Job done, Mad for Chelsea. A good methodology. Now email it to Gatland and we're good to go!

I know this thread is for fun, but I'll pose this question...

Would people like to see this methodology used?

I don't care about the nationality of the individuals, I just want them to be the best. They are representing the UK and Ireland, of which I'm part of.

Anyone have Gats's email address? Run

No I don't think I would want this methodology used cascough. Like a few others on here I would probably rather the head coach wasn't also head coach of one of the home nations at the time, as it's almost certain to lead to accusations of bias somewhere down the line, but to impose equal representation from all home nations seems a bit silly. Quotas would also lead some of the players to wonder if they'd really been picked on merit.

I guess it also depends on what you think should be the ethos of the Lions. Is it win at all costs? Or more about the fun element of combining the best from the home nations and seeing what happens. Without wishing to get into a long debate, the Lions do feel rather like a relic from the amateur age at times, and I'm still not entirely sure they have their place in the professional era...

Personally, I think Gats wound quite a few fans and probably some players up the wrong way last time around. Most of the Scots picked had a token feel about them, and too many of the players never got a fair crack of the whip. Oddly I almost feel the fact they won made it worse, since it vindicated Gats's decisions to a point, whereas at least when Woodward's Lions were thrashed people could unanimously point the blame.

Anyway, I disgress. There are plenty of more serious Lions threads out there, this one's meant to be a bit more light-hearted.

If "merit" is purely individual playing ability, then players have never been selected solely on that in Lions history. In the amateur years players were sometimes selected on availability - those corinthian gentlemen who could afford to take five months off work and still support their families in absentia. Then there were players overlooked because they had looked at a blazer in a funny way sometime in their past. Now the Lions are all about marketing, there will always be a significant contingent of England and Wales players because that is where the money is to be harvested. There will also be players selected in combinations, who collectively might be the best unit but individually may not be.
There are qualities other than playing ability that Gatland has admitted that he looking for - such as someone who will be a be a good squad man. So some players are purposely picked with little chance of a Test shirt but because they are content to turn out for the dirt trackers. Maybe that's all meritorious and deserving of selection but the current Lions are a long way from being the best 40 individual players from these islands.

The suggestion of having 10 players from each nation may not happen but perhaps having fowards from two nations and backs from the other two would at least allow settled units to play together and provide some benfit for their home Test teams. Wink

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 3:01 pm

England: Jamie George, Owen Farrell, Jonathan Joseph, Mako Vunipola, Joe Marler, Maro Itoje, Jack Nowell, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, Eliott Daly

Ireland: Tagdh Furlong, Jack McGrath, Rory Best, Conor Murray, CJ Stander, Josh Van Der Flier, Robbie Henshaw, Johnny Sexton, Iain Henderson, Gary Ringrose

Scotland: Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell, Johnny Gray, Greg Laidlaw, Huw Jones, Alex Dunbar, WP Nel, Sean Maitland, Josh Strauss, Ritchie Gray

Wales: Justin Tipuric, Alun Wynn Jones, Liam Williams, Rhys Webb, Talaupe Faletau, Leigh Halfpenny, Samson Lee, Ken Owens, Ross Moriarity, George North

UB: Daly
B3: Williams, Halfpenny, Hogg, Maitland, Nowell, North
CE: Jones, Joseph, Dunbar, Henshaw, Ringrose
FH: Russell, Farrell, Sexton
SH: Webb, Laidlaw, Murray
BR: Tipuric, Faletau, Stander, Moriarity, Van Der Flier, Robshaw, Strauss
LK: AWJ, Gray, Itoje, Kruis, Henderson, Gray
PR: Furlong, McGrath, Lee, Nel, Vunipola, Marler
HK: Best, George, Owens

Probably giving teams of:

Hogg
Williams
Joseph
Henshaw
Nowell
Sexton
Murray
Faletau
Van Der Flier
Robshaw
Gray
Itoje
Furlong
Best
McGrath

Vunipola, George, Nel, Henderson, Stander, Webb, Farrell, Daly

with a midweek starting side of

Halfpenny
Maitland
Jones
Dunbar
North
Russell
Laidlaw
Stander
Tipuric
Moriarity
Kruis
Jones
Lee
Owens
Marler
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