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Post by Steve_rugby on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 4:57 pm

Well played France. Only Scotland or Ireland can stop England now.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 5:09 pm

Can England still win the Grand Slam, even if they do not get any bonus points, scoring 4 tries i mean?


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Post by Scottrf on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 5:15 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Can England still win the Grand Slam, even if they do not get any bonus points, scoring 4 tries i mean?

You can win the grand slam without scoring any tries. Strange question.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 5:15 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Can England still win the Grand Slam, even if they do not get any bonus points, scoring 4 tries i mean?


Yes, you get a three point bonus for the slam making it impossible to be caught by any other side

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Post by Heaf on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 5:18 pm

Grand Slam = wining all matches so BPs make no difference to that .... however if you get the GS you will win the Championship anyway

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 5:23 pm

ok cheers.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 5:30 pm

Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 6:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 6:18 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink

Technically not yet.  They'll have to win a game (hmm, unfortunately for them they face the 2nd ranked side in the world, away) and all the other teams that have one win will have to lose next week before Italy are back in contention.  I don't think the latter part of that sentence is feasible in terms of probability given that the four sides on 1 win are playing each other next week.  The likelihood is that two of them will stretch ahead again.

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Post by Gwlad on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 6:27 pm

Scottrf wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Can England still win the Grand Slam, even if they do not get any bonus points, scoring 4 tries i mean?

You can win the grand slam without scoring any tries. Strange question.

not when you consider the source

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 6:37 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink


I am not to fussed to be honest. I feel England's hardest games are behind them. I know will still have Ireland at the End of march. And i m not suggesting for one minute that Ireland will be a push over. But Playing France and Wales and winning both those game in the dying minutes of the game. Gives me hope and beiief England can win the 6ns 2017.

I just hope i have not jinxed them now in any way.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 6:47 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink


I am not to fussed to be honest. I feel England's hardest games are behind them. I know will still have Ireland at the End of march. And i m not suggesting for one minute that Ireland will be a push over. But Playing France and Wales and winning both those game in the dying minutes of the game. Gives me hope and beiief England can win the 6ns 2017.

I just hope i have not jinxed them now in any way.

You have every right to feel that, majestic - England look good for a double.  No argument there.  Strong powerful and fit bunch of players.  Not a pleasant prospect to meet for any side.
I'll reserve my opinion of what competition we can put up to challenge that belief after we meet France.  France didn't look so good today but I think they are actually now at a disadvantage playing at home as they try to please their demanding home crowd too much and over-play the elan game.
We did however do a more ruthless job on Italy than that Wales side you beat could - and they didn't have North for you but had him for Italy.  We haven't had our supposed best game controller in Sexton for two games.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 8:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink

Technically not yet.  They'll have to win a game (hmm, unfortunately for them they face the 2nd ranked side in the world, away) and all the other teams that have one win will have to lose next week before Italy are back in contention.  I don't think the latter part of that sentence is feasible in terms of probability given that the four sides on 1 win are playing each other next week.  The likelihood is that two of them will stretch ahead again.

At the risk of being pedantically boring. 'Technically' Italy are on the list of teams that can still win the championship.
It ain't gonna happen but hey ......

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 8:27 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink

Technically not yet.  They'll have to win a game (hmm, unfortunately for them they face the 2nd ranked side in the world, away) and all the other teams that have one win will have to lose next week before Italy are back in contention.  I don't think the latter part of that sentence is feasible in terms of probability given that the four sides on 1 win are playing each other next week.  The likelihood is that two of them will stretch ahead again.

At the risk of being pedantically boring. 'Technically' Italy are on the list of teams that can still win the championship.
It ain't gonna happen but hey ......

Oh I'm grand with Pedanticism. But 'It ain't gonna happen' will do me as a declaration of truth, Trev Wink. So we're back to France being the only side today that has put itself back in the ring as a possible Championship winner.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 8:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink

Technically not yet.  They'll have to win a game (hmm, unfortunately for them they face the 2nd ranked side in the world, away) and all the other teams that have one win will have to lose next week before Italy are back in contention.  I don't think the latter part of that sentence is feasible in terms of probability given that the four sides on 1 win are playing each other next week.  The likelihood is that two of them will stretch ahead again.

At the risk of being pedantically boring. 'Technically' Italy are on the list of teams that can still win the championship.
It ain't gonna happen but hey ......

Oh I'm grand with Pedanticism.  But 'It ain't gonna happen' will do me as a declaration of truth, Trev Wink.  So we're back to France being the only side today that has put itself back in the ring as a possible Championship winner.

✌️

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 1:11 am

SecretFly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink

Technically not yet.  They'll have to win a game (hmm, unfortunately for them they face the 2nd ranked side in the world, away) and all the other teams that have one win will have to lose next week before Italy are back in contention.  I don't think the latter part of that sentence is feasible in terms of probability given that the four sides on 1 win are playing each other next week.  The likelihood is that two of them will stretch ahead again.

Without looking at Bonus points, Italy would need to win 3 games.

To win the Championship with 3 wins, you'd need other teams to not exceed 3 wins.

So, Italy would have to beat England, France and Scotland in the next 3 weeks.
With Wales and Ireland already holding wins over Italy, Italy could do with those 2 losing in Week 3.

Week 3 standing
2 wins - England, France, Scotland
1 win - Ireland, Wales, Italy

In this scenario, Week 4 will see someone get up to 3 wins as England play Scotland. With Scotland still to come for Italy, they'd prefer for them to win to keep it in their hands.
In the other game, they'd be ambivalent as to who won. For Italy's sake, let's eliminate Ireland from contention, as they have more bonus points.

Week 4 standing
3 wins - Scotland
2 wins - Italy, England, France, Wales
1 win - Ireland

Then in the last week, Italy would have to win. It would be helpful if England didn't win, as it would make the situation less complicated. Then between France and Wales one team would join Italy on 3 wins. Let's say it's France, because their match against Italy is still open.

Week 5 standing
3 wins - Scotland, Italy, France
2 wins - England, Wales, Ireland

Italy could have a maximum of 15 points if they get 3 try bonus points. Scotland and France, picking up 8 points for two further wins, would be on 13. If they were limited to a maximum of one bonus point, Italy would take the Championship.

Highly contrived, highly unlikely, but there it is. Italy's path to winning. It will just take a try bonus point win at Twickenham to get them back on track.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:16 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Only one side can win the Grand Slam - but another side (France) has joined the list of sides that can now win the Championship.

Mmm I guess that's all the teams even Italy Wink


I am not to fussed to be honest. I feel England's hardest games are behind them. I know will still have Ireland at the End of march. And i m not suggesting for one minute that Ireland will be a push over. But Playing France and Wales and winning both those game in the dying minutes of the game. Gives me hope and beiief England can win the 6ns 2017.

I just hope i have not jinxed them now in any way.

France have been a bottom half of the table team for three years now. Would Ireland in Dublin not be harder than France in London?

Winning in Wales was impressive because Wales are a good side.

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Post by rodders on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:49 am

Looking at the table can't see England catching Ireland. Assuming England get 10 points over the next two home games they'll head to Dublin with 18 points.

Even if Ireland get 8 they'll start the game on 14 so any form of win would take the title provided England don't get a losing bonus.

Given the absolute shellacking that is waiting Eddie Jones team at the Aviva I'd advise him to concede the title now and give up with the weak attempts at bravado because he's fooling no one. guinness
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:59 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Can England still win the Grand Slam, even if they do not get any bonus points, scoring 4 tries i mean?


Only Maro Itoje can win the grand slam.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:03 am

Ireland was always going to be toughest game and still is.

I still believe England need an improvement in performance to beat Ireland.

They were better vs Wales than France but still work to be done.

Ireland losing to Scotland doesn't change things.

Physically both France and Wales have really tested England and pushed England, I think Ireland are a superior side to both.

Billy took it to the Irish last season and so far Hughes hasn't really looked anywhere near as good. He performed better against Wales but he still doesn't offer the same threat.


On a side note - it's funny that Hogg looks like the favourite for 6 nations player of the season, shouldn't have won last year's competition but might well win it legitimately this time round.

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Post by englishborn on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:09 am

Ireland will be a step up from Wales, they have a more settled style of play and the team to deliver it.

The English backrow will need to be in better shape than it currently is, elsewhere England are in good shape, but a lack of breakdown work from the 6 and 7 make life much harder as we saw in the Wales game.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:11 am

Is a repeat of 2011 on the cards?

Odds have to be decent, as all it would need is:

England to beat Italy (highly likely) and Scotland (likely) at home, and Wales to beat Ireland in the Friday night fixture (eminently possible).

This then leaves England as (assuming Ireland have beaten France) title winners but having to win in Dublin to secure the Grand Slam.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:19 am

beshocked wrote:Ireland was always going to be toughest game and still is.

I still believe England need an improvement in performance to beat Ireland.

Physically both France and Wales have really tested England and pushed England, I think Ireland are a superior side to both.
Yep, but the one positive from an England perspective is that I think Wales have better poachers than Ireland and we got turned over far too many times. That and some awful kicking were where we put ourselves under pressure.

That said I think Ireland should be slight favourites at home. All to play for.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:26 am

The only shock that can come in this years 6 Nations would be England not winning the grand slam. They are playing far better than all other sides in the competition this season and are the no.2 side in the world.

Anything but a grand slam would be a failure for Jones.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:35 am

Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:Ireland was always going to be toughest game and still is.

I still believe England need an improvement in performance to beat Ireland.

Physically both France and Wales have really tested England and pushed England, I think Ireland are a superior side to both.
Yep, but the one positive from an England perspective is that I think Wales have better poachers than Ireland and we got turned over far too many times. That and some awful kicking were where we put ourselves under pressure.

That said I think Ireland should be slight favourites at home. All to play for.

Wales might have better poachers but I think Ireland would be far more effective at making use of the turnovers and turning pressure into points.

Aside from a poor 1st half vs Scotland I think Ireland have been the sharpest side in the competition.

England have been winning but I think there are weaknesses that can be exploited. Certain players haven't looked comfortable and haven't performed.

Would be nice if Brown saw that he has team mates he can pass to.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:41 am

rodders wrote:Looking at the table can't see England catching Ireland. Assuming England get 10 points over the next two home games they'll head to Dublin with 18 points.

Even if Ireland get 8 they'll start the game on 14 so any form of win would take the title provided England don't get a losing bonus.

Given the absolute shellacking that is waiting Eddie Jones team at the Aviva I'd advise him to concede the title now and give up with the weak attempts at bravado because he's fooling no one. guinness

Id like to think Ireland could get a winning bonus point against France at home but I dont think Ireland have every scored 4 tries against France. Whistle

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:42 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:The only shock that can come in this years 6 Nations would be England not winning the grand slam.  They are playing far better than all other sides in the competition this season and are the no.2 side in the world.

Anything but a grand slam would be a failure for Jones.

Eh no they are not. England only limped past the six nations whipping boys France in Twickenham. Yes the win against Wales was very good but it was also a close game.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:44 am

On a side note - it's funny that Hogg looks like the favourite for 6 nations player of the season, shouldn't have won last year's competition but might well win it legitimately this time round.

He won the accolade legitimately last year BS. Just because you didn't think he deserved it over a Saracens player doesn't take away the fact that the panel did.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:47 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Eh no they are not. England only limped past the six nations whipping boys France in Twickenham.
6 Nations whipping boys France have the joint most 6 Nations wins.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:50 am

Scottrf wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Eh no they are not. England only limped past the six nations whipping boys France in Twickenham.
6 Nations whipping boys France have the joint most 6 Nations wins.

Correct but the last 3 years they have come 5th 4th and 4th because there aren't very good at the moment albeit probably a bit better this year.

A three point win over France in Twickenham is hardly evidence that England are playing way better than everyone else.


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Post by rodders on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:51 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
rodders wrote:Looking at the table can't see England catching Ireland. Assuming England get 10 points over the next two home games they'll head to Dublin with 18 points.

Even if Ireland get 8 they'll start the game on 14 so any form of win would take the title provided England don't get a losing bonus.

Given the absolute shellacking that is waiting Eddie Jones team at the Aviva I'd advise him to concede the title now and give up with the weak attempts at bravado because he's fooling no one. guinness

Id like to think Ireland could get a winning bonus point against France at home but I dont think Ireland have every scored 4 tries against France. Whistle

Au contraire mon ami, almost 10 years to the day ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/international/4704158.stm

Coincidence, I think not...
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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:52 am

France are obviously playing better this season than previous. It's a much closer 6N than previous years with no real standout so far, even England.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:52 am

We lost that game rodders.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:53 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:France are obviously playing better this season than previous. It's a much closer 6N than previous years with no real standout so far, even England.

So a 3 point win over France at home is evidence that England are playing way better that everyone else?

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Post by rodders on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:53 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:We lost that game rodders.

Yeah but if you take out the 40 odd points we conceded, we'd have won with a bonus point.
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:54 am

rodders wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:We lost that game rodders.

Yeah but if you take out the 40 odd points we conceded, we'd have won with a bonus point.

Great point.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:57 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:France are obviously playing better this season than previous. It's a much closer 6N than previous years with no real standout so far, even England.

So a 3 point win over France at home is evidence that England are playing way better that everyone else?

I'm lost.

I was suggesting that there's no standout side including England. I don't actually think we've played well yet. There's been very little between the 5 sides for me.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:59 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:France are obviously playing better this season than previous. It's a much closer 6N than previous years with no real standout so far, even England.

So a 3 point win over France at home is evidence that England are playing way better that everyone else?

I'm lost.

I was suggesting that there's no standout side including England. I don't actually think we've played well yet. There's been very little between the 5 sides for me.

I was originally responding to this comment:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:The only shock that can come in this years 6 Nations would be England not winning the grand slam.  They are playing far better than all other sides in the competition this season and are the no.2 side in the world.

Anything but a grand slam would be a failure for Jones.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:01 am

Well that obviously looks like a wum as England are not playing much better than anyone, if at all. All England are doing is winning despite not playing that well.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:09 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well that obviously looks like a wum as England are not playing much better than anyone, if at all. All England are doing is winning despite not playing that well.

Yeah maybe but to be fair although they haven't been as good as last year two wins from two tough games is very good going. They are definitely in pole position.

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:15 am

I'd give England 6/10 so far this 6 nations.

Long way to go before the fat lady sings, but plenty of room for improvement and with Mako and Watson becoming available we are in a good place.
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Post by thebandwagonsociety on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:32 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:France are obviously playing better this season than previous. It's a much closer 6N than previous years with no real standout so far, even England.

So a 3 point win over France at home is evidence that England are playing way better that everyone else?

I'm lost.

I was suggesting that there's no standout side including England. I don't actually think we've played well yet. There's been very little between the 5 sides for me.

I was originally responding to this comment:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:The only shock that can come in this years 6 Nations would be England not winning the grand slam.  They are playing far better than all other sides in the competition this season and are the no.2 side in the world.

Anything but a grand slam would be a failure for Jones.

I'll still stick by the statement guns. I'm not claiming england as good because of a 3 point win over France. I'm claiming they are good because they are on a seriously long winning streak for a considerable period of time, and even when they play below their own par in recent games, they still pick up the victory. It could very easily be November before they're beaten in a test match again which would be close to a year and a halfs worth of rugby.

6/10 england is beating anything being put against them. Their step up in performance potential far exceeds any hopeful step up by the other 6N sides.

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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:41 am

Yeah it is a great streak. the backbone of the long run is 4 wins v Australia and a grand slam. I dont think Australia are as strong as perhaps first though. Ireland beat them while missing 5 first team players and as the game progressed 4 players playing out of position. for the second half Ireland had only about 7-8 first team regulars and still won.

For me despite Wales poor Autumn England's win in Cardiff is their best win of the streak. They did it missing their best player Billy V amongst others and in a game that could have gone either way they showed great mental fortitude to close it out. Farrell's pass to Daly was exceptional.

That said both wins so far for England have been very marginal and England have struggled to score tries so I think the odds on a slam are possibly marginally not in England's favour. They have only won once in Dublin in the 6 nations in 10 years. Even if Ireland are out of it by then it will be a very important game for us on Patrick's weekend.

I am also looking forward very much to the England v Scotland game. The last couple have been quite tight.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:38 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well that obviously looks like a wum as England are not playing much better than anyone, if at all. All England are doing is winning despite not playing that well.

Yeah maybe but to be fair although they haven't been as good as last year two wins from two tough games is very good going. They are definitely in pole position.

I was hoping the game would break up against France and we would win a high-scoring game, which never happened. Short of that, it would be greedy for England fans to ask for more than 8 points from the opening two games. England are in a strong position, everything is in our hands still.

5 against Italy is a must after Ireland did similar, and England will need to be thinking points difference as well.

Giving everyone 5 points against Italy (possibly harshly, but everyone will target it, and I think Wales missed a trick not thinking tries earlier) and the home team a 4-1 match point win as a guide;

England would win the Championship on 18 points
Ireland, Scotland and France would be level 2nd on 15 points
Wales would be 5th on 11 points

If every non-Italy game goes with home and away 4-1 form, England will wrap up the Championship at the end of Week 4 with 17 points and the nearest contenders on 11, which would be slightly different to 2011 as we had to wait on the France vs Wales match and ended up lifting the trophy in the hotel.

Someone will need to win away from home, and back it up with home wins, to stop England winning the Championship.

There is a fairly contrived scenario where England lose at home to Scotland and away to Ireland, Wales beat Scotland in Scotland and each of the 5 teams could end up on 3 wins, which would be kinda fun from a neutral perspective, especially on the final day.

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